The Honda Hybrids use a IMA system which is much more efficient than Toyota's HSD on the highway.
Based on CD and speed, the actual HP need to maintain highway cruising is very little. Many cars that have gone to CVT or 5, 6, 7+ spped tansmissions have started putting in a very tall gear, example Corvette.
The HAH has enough power, that it would be very easy to add either a wider range ratio CVT or a 6 speed or a wider spaced 5-speed to achieve a much taller highway gear.
This would allow a significant increase in steady-state highway mileage withg very little else being changed. Think of your current HAH haveing an EPA rating of 50 mpg and actually getting that.
The HSD system is more limited since the MG1 and MG2 must always spin. If the traction battery is charged then MG2 generates power which then runs MG1 which then runs the drive wheels. No conversion is 100% efficient, so each exchange of energy has a loss. Toyota is in the process of designing a replacement system for the HSD but this is still about 5 years in the future so you will continue to see numbers where the such as the Camry hybrid have flip-flopped mileage specs 40/38 whereas the Accord Hybrid has higher highway mileage 25/34 and the potential to go to 30/50.
Besides the theoretical considerations, and potential, you have to look at the focus of the designs. Clearly the designers of TCH were more concerned about FE than acceleration, otherwise they would have used a 6 cylinder.
Practically speaking, my TCH gets about 40 mpg on the highway between 65 and 70 mph. It would be hard to imagine a midsized car geting better than that in the city, and mine does not. It gets maybe 32, and if I am not paying attention or in a hurry it would be in the low 20s.
It appears that Honda is using it's IMA for smaller vehicles like the Civic, Fit and a new one still to be identified, while going the diesel route for it's midsized/larger vehicles such as the Ody, MDX and eventually Accord. It's IMA is very capable with smaller vehicles and less costly than the HSD
Toyota with the HSD system is more capable in the midsized vehicle range power-wise, with excellent FE, but it's likely too costly to put into smaller less expensive vehicles like the Corolla, Yaris, etc. I can see them offering diesel versions of these from Europe soon.
I don't think either company will beat their head against a wall trying to knock out the other's technology. Comparative Advantage.
Now if new developments arise from the laboratories then this could all change since as you know, YMMV.
"Practically speaking, my TCH gets about 40 mpg on the highway between 65 and 70 mph. It would be hard to imagine a midsized car geting better than that in the city, and mine does not."
Hey faldoc let you imagination run wild and randomly select 5 alpha characters : P ... R .. I.. U.. S
Yes, very good you imagined it and it happened the Prius is a mid sized that can get that mileage.
at least space wise per the EPA. Physically, it's not the same size or weight of the TCH. From what I read, the TCH is better to drive than the Prius and works better as far ast the hybrid system goes. That was from people who own or owned the Prius and now have a TCH.
The TCH has gobs more power than a Prius. It's nearly 2 seconds quicker 0-60. And traps 91-93 mph in the 1/4 mile depending on which test you read. This might not appeal to the greenies out there but for those who want to save gas and the environment at the same time and want some performance will appreciate this.
Check www.camrychat.com for futher information on this or www.toyotanation.com.
I raced a kid in a 'tuned' pickup truck today. We were equal all the way but each time he had to shift he lost part of a car length. By the time we got to 75 he was a length behind.
'Stupid truck, losing to a Prius for God's sake.' :lemon:
It killed my fuel economy for this tank though. :shades:
what do you guys think of the "drive" of the Camry hybrid verus the Accord, in so far as its sportiness? Is it "sporty," at all, or is it a plain jane family sedan?
The Camry handling dynamics were much more similar to the Accord than I expected. Previous generations, I highly doubt that would be true. The Camry is much quieter and serene, but I toss it through corners and have a fine time.
If sportiness is truly your top priority, sure, the Accord is going to win that category. But if you think the Camry is an overall better package but are afraid its too "boring," that was exactly me when I bought it (after considering both cars for a while) and my fears have been alleviated. I love driving the Camry Hybrid. I don't usually do this, but today I was just a touch frustrating with a slow group of cars on a two lane parkway on a gradual uphill grade. I finally just darted out of the lane, gunned it, and shot past all 10 of them in no time flat, totally effortless. The CVT works great.
Since I live in Colorado and need four wheel or All wheel drive occassionally, do you think Toyota will design an AWD Camry or Avalon in the future, anyone? I have an 05 2.4L which is a great car and getting 25 to 28 city and 39 on the Hwy-never over 65mph though. I also have an 03 4R V8 getting about 15mpg and don't drive it unless I have to. Happy New Year everyone!!
Things I know I'll miss about the Accord (just got the new car today and have already noticed several items):
1. Camry has LOTS less storage. The AH had deep storage in all four doors with a cupholder in each. It also had a "true" two-level center console storage thingie. 2. Cruise controls on the steering wheel. I don't mess with the AC/Heat enough to warrant them being on the steering wheel.... The cruise is another story. I operated them with my thumb on the Accord, but to be honest, I'm sure I'll adapt to the "stick". 3. No power adapter in the center console? Whaaaaa? 4. No lumbar support adjustment in the driver's seat. 5. The AH had high/low settings for the seat heaters. And yes, sometimes it does make a difference. 6. The Honda had a cool feature on the keyfob where if you hit the unlock twice and held it down on the second click, all the windows would roll down. Great for summers in Georgia.
Things I already love about the Camry that I didn't have before (btw, 2007 grey metallic LOADED w/ NAV & everything else): 1. I've already "bluetoothed" my phone. 2. I got a DVD player installed (I lug my young son three 1/2 hours about every other month to see ailing relatives) 3. The NAV is fun, but the manual is not as well-written as I'd like (I'm pretty techie and am still having a hard time with some of it). 4. Mileage is better. The main reason I switched. 5. I'm looking forward to hooking up my iPod but am wondering -- why only one "punch out" in the forward console (and on the passenger side, at that)? I'm not planning on leaving my iPod in the car, so it would be easier for me to reach it on the driver's side to take it out. 6. Would LOVE to be able to unlock all doors w/ out having to lug out the keyfob, since that is the ONLY thing I'll be using it for (gotta put the little one in the back)
That's all I can think of for now. I do love the looks of it and the color and all the cool options and am excited about it.
You have the Smart Key which is one of the coolest 'techie toys' around. You don't have to use the fob - ever. You can, if you want, program all the doors to open on one touch, not just the driver's door. I've programmed my Prius like that.
I think that there is only a punch out on the passenger's side to avoid the possibility of getting wires tangled around the driver's foot/let.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I am totally in love with the smart key (I thought, how cool, I NEVER have to take it out of my purse). I LOVE being able to just casually walk up to my locked car and reach out and open it.
Now about reprogramming it -- is that in the manual?
I just meant that I hated that I'll have to get it out when I have my four-year-old with me to let him in the back (or reach in the front door and unlock all the doors to open the back door).
Last night I was able to "play" with the car some more after my son's bedtime, and am loving the MP3 capability of the CD player. the TCH also has three more Sat. radio presets, a definite plus.
This morning the first thing out of my son's mouth when he woke up was "I LOVE our new car, Mommy". Of course, all I was thinking was "how long until I get to drive today?" :shades:
>Now about reprogramming it -- is that in the manual?
It's a little hard to understand in the manual, but it is in there on p.40. On your key fob, if you hold the "door lock" switch and any of the other switches (e.g., the "truck open" switch) at the same time for 5 seconds while standing next to the car (with the car powered off), you'll hear the car beep, indicating the mode has changed. My new TCH was programmed so that the driver's side only unlocked the DS door, and I changed it to unlock all doors as well.
At least I see it as a benefit, is the TCH offers a choice between cloth and leather seats. The Accord Hybrid unfortunately saddles you with leather seats. I personally am very happy Toyota went with standard cloth on the Camry Hybrid.
Honda missed the boat there (as well as with the leather only EX-V6/6spd), not everybody wants leather seats in their cars.
Sorry, but I like power...The 2006-2007 Honda Accord V6 Hybrid is a MUSCLE CAR!!! The reason it didn't sell is because of original price and nerdy-looking wheels. The car is an engineering marvel! It should have been put in an Acura body, with sport wheels, since consumers are paying more for it up front. But, I love to blow the doors off other cars in downtown Dallas-Ft. Worth....It was also the only Accord with sound-dampening. It competes with all the BMW's/Mercedes Benz's out there, at a fraction of the cost..and better fuel mileage(as compared to 18 with similar power in others). Some teenager pulled up next to me in his Mustang the other day....I blew his doors off!...The other sedan-type hybrids out there are doggy, and dangerous! I got this HAH for $20,500 off Craig's list (33,000mi); it had a defective Hydraulic Control Module for the Anti-Lock Brakes ABS system, which Honda put out as a notice, but the previous owner could not figure out...it was a complex problem...kept developing air in the brake lines... but once solved (covered for a 2nd owner under warranty).. its been the greatest car I've ever had...The other options..Prius, Camry Hybrid, Civic Hybrid just didn't have good acceleration (sometimes you need it in tight traffic in a big city)...or they were too tinny/noisy. I changed out the nerdy wheels for standard stock 2006-2007 Honda Accord 10 spoke sport wheels - had to grind down the caliper in front, but now it looks sporty, and drives (with its light suspension and steering/unlike Acura) like a sports car!
Comments
Based on CD and speed, the actual HP need to maintain highway cruising is very little. Many cars that have gone to CVT or 5, 6, 7+ spped tansmissions have started putting in a very tall gear, example Corvette.
The HAH has enough power, that it would be very easy to add either a wider range ratio CVT or a 6 speed or a wider spaced 5-speed to achieve a much taller highway gear.
This would allow a significant increase in steady-state highway mileage withg very little else being changed. Think of your current HAH haveing an EPA rating of 50 mpg and actually getting that.
The HSD system is more limited since the MG1 and MG2 must always spin. If the traction battery is charged then MG2 generates power which then runs MG1 which then runs the drive wheels. No conversion is 100% efficient, so each exchange of energy has a loss. Toyota is in the process of designing a replacement system for the HSD but this is still about 5 years in the future so you will continue to see numbers where the such as the Camry hybrid have flip-flopped mileage specs 40/38 whereas the Accord Hybrid has higher highway mileage 25/34 and the potential to go to 30/50.
YMMV,
MidCow
Practically speaking, my TCH gets about 40 mpg on the highway between 65 and 70 mph. It would be hard to imagine a midsized car geting better than that in the city, and mine does not. It gets maybe 32, and if I am not paying attention or in a hurry it would be in the low 20s.
Toyota with the HSD system is more capable in the midsized vehicle range power-wise, with excellent FE, but it's likely too costly to put into smaller less expensive vehicles like the Corolla, Yaris, etc. I can see them offering diesel versions of these from Europe soon.
I don't think either company will beat their head against a wall trying to knock out the other's technology. Comparative Advantage.
Now if new developments arise from the laboratories then this could all change since as you know, YMMV.
"Practically speaking, my TCH gets about 40 mpg on the highway between 65 and 70 mph. It would be hard to imagine a midsized car geting better than that in the city, and mine does not."
Hey faldoc let you imagination run wild and randomly select 5 alpha characters : P ... R .. I.. U.. S
Yes, very good you imagined it and it happened the Prius is a mid sized that can get that mileage.
MidCow
The TCH has gobs more power than a Prius. It's nearly 2 seconds quicker 0-60. And traps 91-93 mph in the 1/4 mile depending on which test you read. This might not appeal to the greenies out there but for those who want to save gas and the environment at the same time and want some performance will appreciate this.
Check www.camrychat.com for futher information on this or www.toyotanation.com.
'Stupid truck, losing to a Prius for God's sake.' :lemon:
It killed my fuel economy for this tank though.
No need to shift .. LOL
Seriously Bob, what tune was he listening to?
I'd have been embarrassed to have watched that.
If sportiness is truly your top priority, sure, the Accord is going to win that category. But if you think the Camry is an overall better package but are afraid its too "boring," that was exactly me when I bought it (after considering both cars for a while) and my fears have been alleviated. I love driving the Camry Hybrid. I don't usually do this, but today I was just a touch frustrating with a slow group of cars on a two lane parkway on a gradual uphill grade. I finally just darted out of the lane, gunned it, and shot past all 10 of them in no time flat, totally effortless. The CVT works great.
I guess I just need to drive them both, if a dealer would just call me back
:confuse:
You need to find one of your edmunds / greenhybrid buddies to let you drive theirs.
anyone here live or work on the SF Peninsula?
1. Camry has LOTS less storage. The AH had deep storage in all four doors with a cupholder in each. It also had a "true" two-level center console storage thingie.
2. Cruise controls on the steering wheel. I don't mess with the AC/Heat enough to warrant them being on the steering wheel.... The cruise is another story. I operated them with my thumb on the Accord, but to be honest, I'm sure I'll adapt to the "stick".
3. No power adapter in the center console? Whaaaaa?
4. No lumbar support adjustment in the driver's seat.
5. The AH had high/low settings for the seat heaters. And yes, sometimes it does make a difference.
6. The Honda had a cool feature on the keyfob where if you hit the unlock twice and held it down on the second click, all the windows would roll down. Great for summers in Georgia.
Things I already love about the Camry that I didn't have before (btw, 2007 grey metallic LOADED w/ NAV & everything else):
1. I've already "bluetoothed" my phone.
2. I got a DVD player installed (I lug my young son three 1/2 hours about every other month to see ailing relatives)
3. The NAV is fun, but the manual is not as well-written as I'd like (I'm pretty techie and am still having a hard time with some of it).
4. Mileage is better. The main reason I switched.
5. I'm looking forward to hooking up my iPod but am wondering -- why only one "punch out" in the forward console (and on the passenger side, at that)? I'm not planning on leaving my iPod in the car, so it would be easier for me to reach it on the driver's side to take it out.
6. Would LOVE to be able to unlock all doors w/ out having to lug out the keyfob, since that is the ONLY thing I'll be using it for (gotta put the little one in the back)
That's all I can think of for now. I do love the looks of it and the color and all the cool options and am excited about it.
I think that there is only a punch out on the passenger's side to avoid the possibility of getting wires tangled around the driver's foot/let.
Now about reprogramming it -- is that in the manual?
I just meant that I hated that I'll have to get it out when I have my four-year-old with me to let him in the back (or reach in the front door and unlock all the doors to open the back door).
Last night I was able to "play" with the car some more after my son's bedtime, and am loving the MP3 capability of the CD player. the TCH also has three more Sat. radio presets, a definite plus.
This morning the first thing out of my son's mouth when he woke up was "I LOVE our new car, Mommy". Of course, all I was thinking was "how long until I get to drive today?" :shades:
It's a little hard to understand in the manual, but it is in there on p.40. On your key fob, if you hold the "door lock" switch and any of the other switches (e.g., the "truck open" switch) at the same time for 5 seconds while standing next to the car (with the car powered off), you'll hear the car beep, indicating the mode has changed. My new TCH was programmed so that the driver's side only unlocked the DS door, and I changed it to unlock all doors as well.
Hope that helps.
Honda missed the boat there (as well as with the leather only EX-V6/6spd), not everybody wants leather seats in their cars.
#3 & #4:
Mine has a power adapter in the center console and a lumbar pump.
Wow! I didn't realize they've been making Hybrids that long.
Jack H.
once solved (covered for a 2nd owner under warranty).. its been the greatest car I've ever had...The other options..Prius, Camry Hybrid, Civic Hybrid just didn't have good acceleration (sometimes you need it in tight traffic in a big city)...or they were too tinny/noisy. I changed out the nerdy wheels for standard stock 2006-2007 Honda Accord 10 spoke sport wheels - had to grind down the caliper in front, but now it looks sporty, and drives (with its light suspension and steering/unlike Acura)
like a sports car!