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Comments
Are only positive comments on hybrids the only allowed input?"
There are reasons for negative comments and they are allowed everywhere. A person who likes hybrids yet making negative statements is just, well, weird.
As of now, with limited information known about HAH and TCH, all we had to do is analyze underlying technology in both HSD and IMA and guestimate how HAH and TCH are going to come out. Other cars involved in the discussion are due making a point relating to the discussion.
Thank you for your feedback. Now, let's discuss about the reasons behind those negative comments.
Dennis
What negative aspects about Camry or Accord have I commented on? Did I say they are too slow, too complex, not adequate mileage, that the MSRP is too high on the Accord compared to the Camry? Did I say the weight of the hybrid was too high? Did I complain that they only will run on high octane unleaded?
MPG
MSRP
0-60 mph
HP and Torque
Standard equipment
Emissions
Warranty of hybrid powertrain
Availability
MPG:
30-40 mpg (“Civic Like”)
MSRP:
Under $30K (expected to be top of the line model, above Accord EXV6)
0-60 mph:
Estimated 6.0-6.5s with automatic transmission (Better or similar to Accord V6).
HP and Torque:
260-270 HP. Peak torque should be in 260-280 lb.-ft range, with peak arriving in 1500-3000 rpm range (“V8 like low end performance”).
Standard equipment:
Everything that is standard with EXV6, and then some (stability control).
Emissions:
At least SULEV. Potentially, AT-PZEV.
Warranty of hybrid powertrain:
At least, 8 years, 100K miles (like Insight & Civic Hybrid)
Availability:
Sep-Oct 2004
LEV (Low Emission Vehicle)
The least stringent emission standard for all new cars sold in California beyond 2004.
ULEV (Ultra Low Emission Vehicle)
50% cleaner than the average new 2003 model year vehicle.
SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle)
90% cleaner than the average new 2003 model year vehicle.
PZEV (Partial Zero Emission Vehicle):
Meets SULEV tailpipe emission standards, has a 15-year / 150,000 mile warranty, and has zero evaporative emissions.
AT-PZEV (Advanced Technology PZEV):
Meets SULEV tailpipe emission standards, has a 15-year / 150,000 mile warranty, has zero evaporative emissions and includes advanced technology components.
ZEV (Zero Emission Vehicle):
Zero tailpipe emissions, and 98% cleaner than the average new 2003 model year vehicle.
This is great news that the Accord Hybrid can be had with standard transmission. I know that currently you can get an Accord Coupe v6 with a 6-speed, but I have not seen any details about what transmissions will be offered fro the Acord V6 Hybrid.
Could you please provide the siurce of tyour information about the Accord Hybrid V6 having a manual transmission.
And unlike you, most Honda slaesman are clueless.
Thanks,
MidCow
Actually ,there is some information avaiailbe on the Accord Hybrid. It will be 270 hp based on current V6 with IMA added, It will use VCM (Variable Cylinder Management) to save on highway cruising and will be available fall 2005. It is speculated it will be fully loaded and be priced slightly under $30k.
Warranty of hybrid powertrain:
At least, 8 years, 100K miles (like Insight & Civic Hybrid
Yes a V6 standard trans. Accord is offered by Honda in the USA and I am a informed person because I sell Honda's for a living. It's just that they are not as looked for so they are not ordered that much.
"Slated for introduction later this year as a 2005 model, the mid-size Accord Hybrid brings hybrid power to Honda's best-selling model, delivering an even higher level of performance than the already powerful 240-horsepower Accord V6 Sedan with the fuel economy of a four-cylinder, compact-class Civic. "
That's all we know so far. IMO, the HP will stay the same as the electric motor isn't going to change that...but rather it may alter the torque a bit.
"Slated for introduction later this year as a 2005 model, the mid-size Accord Hybrid brings hybrid power to Honda's best-selling model, delivering an even higher level of performance than the already powerful 240-horsepower Accord V6 Sedan with the fuel economy of a four-cylinder, compact-class Civic. "
That's all we know so far. IMO, the HP will stay the same as the electric motor isn't going to change that...but rather it may alter the torque a bit.
Body Type: 4-door sedan
Layout: front engine, FWD
Engine: 240 hp, 3.0-L, 24-valve, DOHC V6, i-DSI + IMA
Electric Motor: torque, permanent magnet
Battery Type: NiMH
Combined Gas/Electric Output: more than 240 hp
Transmission: 5-spd auto CVT with idle stop feature
Brakes (front/rear): disc/disc, ABS with EBD
Curb Weight: N/A
Seating Capacity: 5
Cargo Capacity (trunk): N/A
Fuel Economy (city/hwy): N/A
Warranty (mo/km): 36/60,000 comprehensive - 60/100,000 powertrain
Additional Warranties (estimated): 36 months audio components; 100% 12-volt battery coverage for 24 months with 50% for third year; 96 months or 130,000 km Integrated Motor Assist system and electric motor
Direct Competitors: Nissan Altima Hybrid, Toyota Camry Hybrid
http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/previews,view,Honda.spy?artid- =25423&pg=3
Thanks,
MidCow
We don't know if a manual transmission will be offered or not!
And the price range is not $35,000 it will be much closer to $30,000 or less.
Come on folks!
The BS and FUD factor is getting pretty high. If you have corroboarating facts or sources please post. Becuase seawoklf and Tularo are guessses.
Thanks,
MidCow
I doubt Honda is developing a brand new V6 ("DOHC") for Accord. And to top it off, using I-DSI! And, no mention of VCM!
Price speculation is just way too high to be believable in any way.
I would put no faith in the above speculation even if it is just that.
And amusing thing about it is... considers "future" vehicles to be direct competition. HAH arrives a year before either of the "direct competition".
Isn't that "speculation" too? Or do you have an official availability date from Honda for the HAH? (And from Nissan on the NAH, and from Toyota on the TCH?)
Official News Item From Honda
I doubt Honda is developing a brand new V6 ("DOHC") for Accord. And to top it off, using I-DSI! And, no mention of VCM!
IMO it is safe to conclude that a manual tranny isn't offered as there's never been a mention of it and that is something that would make the reviews, headlines and news.
It will be interesting to see if HAH does get CVT, but for the moment, I think it will be the 5AT (may be w/SportShift). And hopefully the 6-speed manual too (with a taller axle ratio because of potential abundance of low end torque).
Per Honda PR, it has to happen in late 2004, may be Fall 2004 (when the 2005 Accord comes around).
Front
Rear
Torrance, Calif. 06/28/2004 -- American Honda released the first images of its 2005 Accord V6 Hybrid, a gas-electric hybrid version of Honda's best-selling car, scheduled to go on-sale at Honda dealerships nationwide later this year. Utilizing a next-generation hybrid powertrain, the Accord V6 Hybrid will deliver power and performance above the current 240-horsepower Accord V6 with the fuel economy of a compact-class, four-cylinder Civic sedan...
...With class-leading performance and fuel efficiency provided by a highly advanced and super-efficient hybrid V6 powertrain, the Accord Hybrid will produce in excess of 240 horsepower with near-peak torque available across the engine's full operating range for exhilarating performance with superb acceleration, passing power and cruising comfort."
The Full Story Here
How much more? The electric motor should have about 3 times more powerful since the ICE is 2.8x(240/85) more powerful than HCH.
" the Accord Hybrid will produce in excess of 240 horsepower with near-peak torque available across the engine's full operating range"
In another word, it will have flat torque curve. I'll be interested in looking at HAH torque/hp graph to see how much improvement over HCH mountainous curve. We already know that HSD Atkinson cycle engine's torque curve is super flat. It sounds like Honda is refining HAH for flat toruqe curve instead of achieving higher peak horsepower to stay competitive with HSD.
No mention of HAH being SULEV at all. Even Toyota Highlander hybrid and Lexus RX400h SUVs will be super ultra low emission vehicles. Toyota/Lexus V6 HSD drivetrain makes 270HP. For reference, Prius HSD 110hp(combined) performs like comparable ICE-only 152hp car(usbseawolf2000 "Toyota Allion Vs. Prius" Jun 18, 2004 10:01pm). By deduction, one can V6 HSD to perform like 373hp car. If they use it in Camry Hybrid SE, we know for sure, it will be a winner in emission(may tie with Altima hybrid) and performnace departments.
Dennis
Regarding the shape of the torque, at this point we can only go by the words in the PR item. But, it would be a safe assumption to bet on characteristics of electric motor (strong low to lower mid range torque) complementing the better mid to upper range of gasoline motor.
For the performance comparison, we will have to drag race Accord Hybrid with RX400H when they come around. How about drag racing for, say, 50 miles? :-)
It would be pretty much meaningless because one is family sedan and the other is SUV. I know you can't wait until Camry hybrid to come out to compare. I think it will be sooner than we expected(based on news) because Toyota helped Nissan with Altima hybrid prototype. I would assume that TCH will be a step ahead of Altima Hybrid.
Dennis
http://www.vtec.net/news/news-item?news_item_id=247988
The MDX is larger than the hylander and the RX in the front seat, the second row seat, and in the cargo area.
The MDX is more comfortable in the front seats than the pilot.
The MDX gets better gas mileage than the pilot (about 2 to 3 mpg better)
The MDX is faster than the RX and the Hylander.
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2005/summer/hybridcamry.html
Notice that Inside Line article (posted August 11th) says "the Camry Hybrid will most likely combine electric motors with a gas V6", but the Toyota website (undated, but designated Summer 2005) says "the 4-cylinder engine will be assembled in Georgetown, Kentucky".
Do we see any kind of disconnect here?
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2005/summer/hybridcamry.html
"Most of Camry Hybrid's electrical powertrain components will be imported from Japan, but the 4-cylinder engine will be assembled in Georgetown, Kentucky. As with all other Toyota vehicles featuring Hybrid Synergy Drive®, the Camry Hybrid powertrain will be engineered to achieve the model's specific performance specifications and to exceed buyer expectations."
What they did is take the STOCK V6 ENGINE that came STANDARD in the Accord V6, and they merely added a hybrid IMA system to that engine.
They did that for several reasons, none of which had ANYTHING to do with "hot rodding':
1. Honda has maintained from Day 1 of Insight that "we can put this ingenious IMA system into ANY CAR WE SELL." They have stood by that philosophy for 7 years now.
2. To keep the Hybrid "added cost low" they just used the standard V6 in the normal, gas-only Accord. It just SO HAPPENED that by adding the IMA system to the stock engine, it added a few horsepower as a Consequence - not as an INTENT. ( You all do understand the difference between Consequence and Intent, right?
3. They wanted to have the industry's FIRST V6-powered Hybrid sedan, which they accomplished.
At no point ANYWHERE will you see anyone from Honda saying or implying that "we set out to make a Hot Rod car" with the HAH. It was an unintended result of a basic philosophy of low cost and IMA system interoperability that the HAH has more HP than the standard V6.
I don't think I can say it any clearer than this.....
It is a car without a large market. If you're interested in overall economy, you don't buy the top trim. If you can afford the top trim, the extra cost of fuel doesn't bother you. If you're concerned with the environment, you buy a prius or ride your bike. If you like gadgets and Hondas, well, then you may be the target market.
Most buyers, especially highway commuters, who are worried about "economy" will be interested in the four cylinder accord or camry. This is clearly supported by the sales statistics.
With the 4 cylinder engine, the hybrid camry will appeal to a much larger market than the HAH has, especially if it is offered in LX trim, demonstrates significantly improved fuel consumption, and has a small price differential.