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Has Honda's run - run out?
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Leave the explosions for the 4th!
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News & Views, Wagons, & Hybrid Vehicles
Has Toyota changed options at the low end? Maybe Toyota is selling lots more SE's and that is taking Honda sales. It's too bad we can't see breakdowns by trimline and options packages.
Don't be surprised if honda will soon abandon car maket and become a truck, suv and minivan company.
Honda should do themselves a huge favor. Strip him down and reassemble him as a walking waffel maker. That'll keep his nose out of future car designs.
When they redesign the nose and tail for '06 they should reconfigure the model mix too so that all trims have A/C, even if it means adding $1000 to the price of an Accord DX. It would still compete very well at that price. Everybody wants A/C in a midsize family sedan. The way I see it, the easiest and cheapest way for Honda to improve Accord's competitiveness would be to add feature content, while holding the line on price. The mechanicals can all stay the same, it is the little things they could add to make people feel like they are getting a better deal.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is exactly what I was proposing - they now have an automatic Accord with A/C (and all the safety equipment that is now standard on all Accords for '05) that dealers can sell for under $17K, which should compete very aggressively with Toyota's "Camry standard".
Of course, it still has the 2-speaker stereo, manual locks and outside mirrors, no keyless entry, and the smaller tires and black trim where all the other Accords have color-coordinated trim. Which is to say, it is still very noticeably a "stripper".
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The car is defintely a step up from previous Hyundais, but it's also obvious that the stylists had an Accord in the room when they did their drawings.
When did the Camry first start getting the 3.3 V-6 and the 5-speed automatics? Maybe that's had something to do with the Camry's gain on the Accord? While not all-new, it's becoming more value-packed.
The Accord interior is vastly better to me, more comfy, and just looks higher-line and richer. Better ergonomics too. From what I remember, it drives a bit better too, or at least has some steering feedback!
Maybe the new taillights for '06 will help the Accord? Who knows.
Still, not that many people buy the 27-28K versions of the CamCord. Certainly not compared with the mid-line 4 Cyl. ATs.
I actually would consider an EX-L 4 cyl 5 speed if I moved back to a sedan, and needed something with some room inside, although I also have my eye on the new Civic, which may offer enough room for me in a tidier, nicer driving package, for less jingle.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I still find it sort of mysterious why Accord sales have fallen off and Camry sales have climbed within the past year.
The 2 most popular theories have some holes in them, IMO -
Styling - the Accord styling changed in 03....why did it take 2 years for sales to drop?
Incentives - If Toyota is offering much better incentives, why doesn't that show up in the TMV price? They are still within a few hundred dollars of each other.
The market has changed dramatically, with a lot more emphasis placed on incentives. Almost noone is selling at MSRP, with one or two notable exceptions.
Spent the weekend in Baltimore, MD at a Marina and saw 3 Ridgelines in a matter of minutes. They must be popular for people hauling small boats.
-juice
Bob
Could be advertising. Offering a good deal isn't enough. People have to know about it. Then again, TMV might be slow to adjust.
There are quite a few intangibles like that. Stuff we just don't see. For example... Not long ago, we were talking about how slow Civic sales were for that month. Every reason in the book was examined. Later, I found out that Honda had deliberately reduced production. That's not one of the possibilities we'd considered.
The regular Civic gets a new engine design (designated R18), which will slot between the fuel efficient 1.5L designs and the more powerful K20 engines. The R series is going to be focused on emissions and fuel economy, while the K series will continue to be the performance variant.
The hybrid gets an improved version of the 1.3L from the current model. Most of the improvement are things like reductions in friction to improve power and efficiency. The one change that has attracted a great deal of attention from hybrid fans is the fact that the new IMA design can "cruise" at low speeds with only the electric motor powering the vehicle. Because the Toyota system can do this, many Hondaphiles have incorrectly assumed that Honda "took the Toyota route". That is not the case. While there is similarity in the end result, the designs used to achieve that end are still very different.
But ... Honda was smart enough to get around all the patents Toyota has, so sure enough, kudos to them for a unique solution.
-juice
I think they should compare sells to sells not sells/fleet sells to sell.
I wonder if the new Civic hybrid will break the magical 50 mpg real-world mileage barrier that no-one seems to be able to conquer, except the highly impractical Insight.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Not to mention, from what I hear, Honda is going to be pulling more hp per liter from its 1.8 than anything else in the class.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
IMO the reason is simple. The latest model Accord is UGLY in the rear end. The last Accords were very pleasing to the eye. I cringe when I see the new ones. If they do to the 2006 Civic what they did to the Accord they are headed for the basement with their car business.
-juice
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
stickguy: an LX for you then, sir! :-)
gagrice: Camry has been ahead since 1997. The only year Accord came out on top was the crossover year when Camry switched to the current car from the old one.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I just got an ipod, as you might have guessed.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Exactly!
Also, as for pricing, for what it's worth, if you get an Edmunds TMV price for both, they are within a few hundred bucks. It's not as if the Camry is a lot cheaper, by thousands of dollars. They are very close in price. Yet, Accord sales are slipping and Camry sales are climbing...
I dunno, to me it's still somewhat of a mystery.
I dunno about the Accord. maybe tastes changed?
One other thing to consider is supply. I know that Honda has to share some facilities, so maybe they shifted production to other models, and just didn't make as many Accords (that is, maybe supply drove sales down as much as demand)? Either that, or they screwed up the model mix, which is usually a Mazda staple.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Besides, when you look at all the variations, they've got.... a hybrid for superior economy with a small performance deficit... a coupe with the high performance option... both a sedan and coupe balanced for performance and economy... and yet another model using alternative fuels to produce superior economy with a more severe performance deficit...
You can't play mix and match with every body configuration and engine choice, but there's no shortage of options.
What's more, an Accord EX V-6 would have standard leather and would only go for about $1500 more (and would also have auto climate control and a few other knicknacks).
varmint: I liked the rumors I heard a while back, that there would be 140 hp and 160 hp variants of the new Civic, in addition to the hybrid, gas-sipper, and SI. That is all. I suppose it may be a bit much to ask to have so many variants of a single model. But considering Honda doesn't do options or option packages, they still wouldn't be providing more variations than most other automakers...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The natural gas car is mostly a fleet car, though I'll admit I forgot about it.
-juice
The HX has the same downside as the hybrid does: no moonroof availability. And in the case of the HX, no cruise either, a real deal-killer for me.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Now you can't get more establishment than Camry and Accord, the distinction between the two has almost totally disappeared. The two are fighting on Camry's turf, over Camry's demographics. So, from the tactical point, you got to think Camry would have the upper hand at some point.
The same thing is happening with Corolla and Civic. Honda's trying desperately to reverse the trend with next Civic. It's going to be in some trouble if it doesn't succeed.
Then I did an Accord LX 4 cyl with auto, no options. It was $19,484.
I'm not sure what comes standard on each car, so that might not be a perfect "apples to apples". But, my impression is, the Accord has more standard features, you'd have to get some options on the Camry to be "apples to apples".
I don't see $400 bucks being "make or break" on a $20,000 deal, but maybe it is for some people?
In any case, I don't see a huge price advantage in favor of the Camry.
In a sense they have become the Chevy Bel Air/Impala/Caprice and Ford Galaxie/LTD of the 21st century.
As for why Accord sales are down - could it be some negative blowback from the transmission troubles on the V-6 models? Remember, one of the big reasons that these cars are bought is for their reliability beyond 100,000 miles, and if people get burned, they aren't going to be too forgiving. Especially when there are viable alternatives out there.
The Camry I picked was an SE 3.3 V-6, which comes standard with a sunroof. The only option I picked was the rear spoiler. TMV came out to $22,650, with freight.
With the Accord, it doesn't look like I can get a direct comparison to the Camry. They have an LX V-6, which comes out to a TMV of around $21,600, but you have to live with steel wheels and plastic hubcaps, and no sunroof, or an EX V-6, which has a TMV of $24,310 and does have the alloys/sunroof, but also has leather, heated seats, and a few other things that I really wouldn't care about.
In this case at least, the Camry seems to hit a "sweet spot" that appeals to me, with the right mix of equipment at a good price. In contrast, the Accord seems to come in either too low or too high. And it doesn't look like you can just get an LX and add a sunroof and alloys. At least on Edmunds, it doesn't look like you can add options. You either get the car Honda's way, or you don't get it at all.
In a sense they have become the Chevy Bel Air/Impala/Caprice and Ford Galaxie/LTD of the 21st century.
IMO, they've been that way for the longest time...this isn't a new development at all IMO....The Honda has always been a little "sportier" and the Camry has always been a little "softer", but they've always been big rivals. I doubt many people buy one without at least test driving the other. In fact, I think most "normal" people (non enthusiasts) consisder them basically equal and will buy whichever one costs less.
Theoretically, the Honda way allows for better build quality and lowers costs, by limiting the endless permutation of options.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.