Has Honda's run - run out?

davem2001

You'd be crazy to buy any "normal" car at MSRP...... I could see if you're buying something limited production like a Ferrari Enzo, but for a Hyundai that you will probably be able to get for $200 over invoice 6 months from now?? Forget it!

geo9

Or buying a used current year one for 1/3 of msrp.........OR LESS!...............

davem2001

source -
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102830

timothyaw

I wholehardly agree with this comment. That's the problem with GM currently. They have too many divisions and models, so QUALITY suffers. With Toyota going toward this route, will quality suffer at Toyota? Time will tell. Honda's focus has and hopefully will continue to be is to build fun to drive vehicles that are safe and have the latest technology.

varmint

The article is citing "global sales", not simply the US market.

Sales in the UK have surged with the additional of the diesel Accord and CR-V. The markets in China and India are other places where Honda has seen positive growth and should expect to see more.

Even on the US front, Honda brand sales are more of less flat (Accord and Civic sales are down, but Pilot, Ridgeline, and Ody sales are making up for it).

But even that isn't the big picture for the US. Acura brand sales are up considerably with the TL, RL, and TSX. I think they can expect a continued increase from the next MDX and addition of the RDX next year.

varmint

The V10 announcement is rather unusual for Honda. Speculation is that the car with either be ready in two years, rather than the 3-4 cited in the speech. Or, this could be a smoke screen to confuse rumors about another sport product they are planning. A V10 is such a radical diversion from Honda's typical engine designs (for production cars), no one really knows what to expect.

rsholland

Not if it's a 3.0L V10. Honda has a long history of making tiny engines with lots of cylinders.

Anybody besides me here old enough to remember Honda's 5-cylinder 125cc GP motorcycle racer from the late '60s? Or the 250cc 6-cylinder GP motorcycle racer from the same period?

Now what would be really interesting if this new V10 had oval cylinders, like their 500cc 4-cylinder GP motorcycle racer which had 8-valves per cylinder IIRC. This engine reportedly equaled the power of a 8-cylinder 500cc engine back in the 1970s! Hmmm... a 3.0 V10 that had the power of a V20! Now that would be something to behold!

Bob

davem2001

A big, torquey V8 would be out of character for Honda, but a screaming 3.0L V10 that redlines at 9000rpm wouldn't be.

rsholland

9000? How about 15,000 or 18,000 rpm! That what some of their motorcycle race engines redlined at.

Bob

ateixeira

Easy on the caffeine. :P

Resale isn't nearly that bad, and it will improve as their cars do.

-juice

davem2001

Real world, I'd say 9 or maybe 10 grand is about the upper limit for a car engine... you want it to have at least some low end torque....

Also, remember awhile ago, all the rumors were that the next NSX would be a "performance" hybrid? Same 300hp V6, but an additional 100hp or so from an electric motor.... I wonder what happened to that idea?

ateixeira

That was such a cool concept.

-juice

varmint

Small displacement, multi-cylinder engines are not unusual for Honda.

The announcement of this engine is the weird part. Especially 3-4 years in advance.

And while Honda has done everything under the sun (with regard to engines), they have never produced an engine like this for a "production car". They've probably built dozens of 3.0L V10 engines for F1 racing. But that's not production car material.

mariner7

is probably reply to Nissan GTR and especially Lexus V10 LFA. Both are undergoing tests at Nurburgring. GTR is debuting in next Tokyo show, if rumors are correct. This is apparently Honda's saying we're in the game too. It's interesting Honda first had no intention of building another sports car after NSX. It's pretty predictable Honda wouldn't be able to resist challenges from its biggest rivals forever!

Less cash and technology endowed Subaru, Mitsu and Mazda wage their own supercar war with WRX, Evo and Speed6. But more cash and tech endowed Toyota, Nissan and Honda wage a bigger war with LFA, GTR and NSX.

ateixeira

Throw VW in that first group, with the R32 and the upcoming R36.

All hail bang-for-the-buck!

-juice

varmint

That's a good point. Honda may be putting the news out simply to throw the enthusiasts a bone and grab some hype in the face of new entries from Nissan and Toyota.

I think the rumors about Honda not building a new sport car were just rumors. Possibly based on things leaked by members of the former regime at Honda. Honda did have a very conservative design period as it focused on new products (especially trucks). That was a highly profitable time. Honda made huge advances in manufacturing and logistics. It just wasn't a period known for risky product development.

As an aside, it's easy to think of Honda as a company with specific values, but the truth is things change with each new president. Fukui is breaking more than a few of the old Honda "rules".

mariner7

If current rumors are correct, LFA and NSX will be V10 equipped. Not so coincidentally Honda and Toyota are involved in F1. GTR will have only biturbo V6. Rumor has it Nissan wants to maximize balance, and not horsepower, and therefore rejects V8. Will GTR be fatally handicapped? I don't think so, because GTR has a huge following inside and outside Japan. Nissan's target was 911 Turbo, so 6 makes sense. What are Honda and Toyota's targets, probably some Ferrari or other? Can't be V10 Porsche Carrera GT!

But image wise it will be handicapped to some extent. The future rivalry between NSX and LFA, if both have V10, will be one to end all Japanese rivalries.

nippononly

the biturbo V-6 in the GTR is slated to produce around 450 hp. No small figure, that. How much of a power bump might we reasonably expect from this V-10 for the next NSX? The current NSX "only" has 300 hp. Philosophies may change with changing leadership, but I would like to think that Honda will still value a balanced car (like the NSX) over an over-endowed hp monster that leaves something to be desired in other areas.

davem2001

I think closer to 400hp is the price of admission to that league now....especially when "average" family cars like an Avalon make 270hp.

ateixeira

for that. When the Altima came out with 240hp, everyone had to follow, and that's mainstream cars. Near-lux cars had to step it up a notch or two at least.

BMW can't have pizza delivery boys outrunning 3 series.

Avalon has impressive HP but I wish they made a model tuned for regular gas, even if it sacrificed a few HP.

-juice

newcar31

BMW can't have pizza delivery boys outrunning 3 series.

Lol, pizza delivery boys have been outrunning 3 series for a long time. I never delivered pizza in it, but in it's days, my old 5.0L 'Stang was capable of dumping on 3 series bimmers all day long. Same deal with the turbo Eclipses. The fast sedan thing didn't start with the Altima either, the 92 Maximas with the 190 hp VQ and a manual were nearly as quick as the new Altima as were the Taurus SHOs. Ford came up with the same formula that the Altima is following right now way back in 1989 with the 220 hp SHO, so blame Ford for the quick FWD sedan.

ateixeira

But the Maxima is one step above "mainstream" and the SHO was a special edition model. Altima brought 240hp to the masses at below average prices.

-juice

newcar31

But the Maxima is one step above "mainstream"

Back in 92 you could get a 185 hp V6 Camry with a manual trans too. They were rare, but you could get them, and you can't get any more mainstream than a Camry. I also forgot about the 220 or so hp turbo Dodge Spirit with a manual. Yeah, the SHO was a "special edition", but they sold quite a few of them, and none of those cars were really any more expensive in their day than the V6 Altima is now.

ateixeira

I think their relative market position was higher, though.

I remember those Spirits, the box on steroids!

And the Camry wasn't really sporty or geared like the Altima for 6 second sprints to 60mph.

-juice

nippononly

premium is only "recommended" for the Avalon. So in essence all the models are tuned for regular gas, and yes, you WILL sacrifice a few HP if you use 87 instead of 91! :-)

I fully believe that Honda will be able to build a new NSX that will knock the GTR on its butt even if it is down 50 hp or so on the Nissan. I bet it will be a lot lighter than the GTR, for one thing (it will probably be RWD rather than AWD, after all). The current NSX uses all that aluminum. And the idea of having a car with a racing-type V-10? Whew. I wish I had the money to play in THAT league! :-)

After Autoweek published those photos of the new Civic SI, with the 6-speed and 200 hp, I am seriously thinking I might have to let go of the RSX next year! :shades:

davem2001

the new Civic SI, with the 6-speed and 200 hp, I am seriously thinking I might have to let go of the RSX next year!

That's why all the rumors of Acura dropping the RSX from it's lineup make sense.... heck, if you put the 6 speed and the 200hp motor in the Civic Sedan, it would make the TSX sorta redundant, too....

nippononly

actually, that is EXACTLY the car I wish the TSX was, instead of the larger European Accord. Give me a Civic four door with 200 hp and a 6-speed, then build it to Acura spec and equipment levels, charge, say $25 grand for it. Then build a hardtop S2000, equip and price it about the same - $25-26 grand - and voila! Your new RSX. And make sure those are the new base models from now on, no more $20K bargains like my car. Not that I don't love my car, but it should be a Honda, and clearly with the advent of the '06 Civic SI, it will be! :-)

andre1969

Chrysler was offering 214 hp in the Intrepid and Concorde way back in 1993, from their 3.5 SOHC engine. In 1998 the Intrepid and Concorde had 200 hp standard from a 2.7, and 225 optional from a 3.2. Then a re-worked 3.5 hit the scene for the '99 300M and LHS, putting out 253 hp. For 2000 this engine was offered in the Intrepid, and for 2002 the 3.5 replaced the 3.2 in the lineup, being offered with hp ranging from 234 in de-tuned models on up to 255 in a version of the 300M.

However, these cars, like the Maxima, were a step up from the Accord/Camry/Altima class of car, especially in the early years. Back then, the domestic equivalents of those cars were more like the Corsica and Malibu, Stratus/Cirrus/Breeze, and Contour Mystique. But as the years went by, the Accord/Camry/Altima seemed to work their way up in size and price. And, cars like an Intrepid R/T, Intrepid SXT, Intrepid ES, and Concorde LXi weren't too terribly expensive. Heck, even a loaded 300M or LHS/Concorde Limited wasn't too much of a leap above a loaded Camry/Accord/Altima.

In a nutshell though, Nissan's Altima V-6 was merely a stepping stone in the hp race. Horsepower in mainstream cars has been creeping up now since the early 80's, and we really have cars like the Chrysler turbos, Cavalier V-6es, Sundance/Shadow 3.0's, etc to really get it rolling. now, the Altima 3.5 is very significant, but it's merely building on the hp increases that came before.

Chrysler was also the one that really got the hp rolling in trucks, by offering a V-8 in a small truck, and then massaging the old 318/360 smallblocks into the Magnum V-8's. Before that, your typical truck engine in the 5-liter range was probably good for 150-170 hp.

ateixeira

They were bigger and pricier, like you stated, plus they didn't offer manual transmissions.

I still say Altima is to blame for the HP wars in the mainstream sedan segment.

-juice

nippononly

the new Avalon will spur the same type of horsepower race in large cars.

Now that the Fit is coming and the Civic is growing in the fall, maybe the next Accord will turn INTO a large car for '08.

nowakj66

September 1, 2006?

grbeck

I agree that the current Altima was the tipping point. Nissan was coming from behind, so it hyped the styling and the horsepower of the current model. All of a sudden, EVERYONE had to match the Altima's power, and the race really began.

Now we're being promised Civics that make 200 horsepower!

Compare this - according to the latest issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines, in 1976, a Pontiac 455 cid V-8 was producing 200 horsepower! And those engines weren't being stuffed into Civic-sized cars.

explorerx4

i think the maxima's have been pushing the horsepower rating on mid size sedans, at least since the mid '80's. the altima may have dropped the price point somewhat. personally, i think they screwed the maxima by giving the altima the same power, so i don't know if they really accomplished anything other than giving people a good excuse to skip the weirdly styled maxima.

ateixeira

The thing was the Altima took a big jump, from 155hp or so all the way up to 240hp. So that exaggerated leap makes it seem more significant, perhaps.

Accord followed shortly with 240hp, though with less torque. Honda gears their cars nicely to make up for that.

-juice

rsholland

I would love to see this come Stateside!







Interior



















Bob

ateixeira

Very interesting design. Seats up blocks the rear view, but I like the dual moonroofs and the split tach/speedo display (and I rarely like digital speedos).

There's an article in today's Automotive News about Honda's healthy profits for the quarter, in fact they revised their annual goal upward because the quarter was so good.

Maybe holding off on incentives will work for them after all.

OTOH, another article says the Ridgeline is selling slowly due to high pricing.

-juice

fintail

That Civic could come as an Acura, like the Euro Accord is the TSX

Kind of a cool tach thing going on there

rsholland

Yeah, looking back, I think Honda should have offered a truly "entry-level" Ridgeline. To be honest, I have yet to see a base RT trim model on any dealer lots. They're all mostly mid-level or premium models. I think their product mix was wrong. They need to get some lower priced RT models out there.

I wonder if those Civic's seats also fold flat? I too am a bit concerned about the blocked rear vision with the fold-up Ridgeline-like rear seats.

Bob

ateixeira

VW made the same mistake with the Jetta. The early allocation was all loaded up models, people cringed at the prices.

The seats on the Honda Fit fold up like that, you can fit tall plants and maybe a grandfather clock, it's cool. I think they also fold flat. Very versatile little car.

-juice

nippononly

from Automotive News today is that Honda will begin selling the Acura brand in China next year. A bold move. Also the first time Acuras will sell outside North America.

I guess Honda can afford to drop a bunch of Accord sales if it can pick up the more profitable Ridgeline/Pilot/Odyssey/Acura sales. At least, that seems to be evidenced by the strong first quarter showing for revenues.

jgriff

Honda pricing,,,esp. on the Ridgeline is part of my reason(s) for bypassing. You couldn't hardly find one for less than $30-32k. Granted I don't want a $10-12k difference between the base model and one fully loaded, but $35-36k seems a bit high.

sensai

Hate to toss this in a Honda thread, but GM had 240hp mainstream cars back in 1997 (Grand Prix and Regal). Nissan did not start anything in that regard.

ateixeira

Yeah, but those were large sedans and not tuned to be very sporty. With the median Buick buyer in his 70s, noone would even have noticed.

The Grand Prix had almost the opposite problem, so many strakes, spoiler, gills, ribs, and cladding that noone over 30 wanted to be seen in one.

Grand Am was their mid-size mainstream entry, anyway. Buick's was the Century.

-juice

sensai

You must have read to many of the blatantly false magazine articles that were published when the Grand Prix was redesigned for 04. The previous model was one of the best looking cars on the road, and had none of that gaudy stuff. I would not exactly call it or the Regal large sedans, although they definitely are a bit bigger than the Altima/Accord.

lemmer

I just looked at the Edmunds photo gallery for that generation of the Grand Prix. The stylists showed remarkable restraint in comparison to prior models. But they still have plenty of side-cladding and a spoiler. They have that bathed in plastic look that I have never understood.

This "cleanly styled" Grand Prix is still quite a bit too gaudy for me. The interior is a different matter entirely. It is hopelessly classless.

grbeck

The spy photos of the North American Civics show a similar double-deck dashboard. I'm hoping that the the digital speedometer does NOT make it over here. I prefer a regular speedometer.

As for the Ridgeline - maybe Honda did send too many higher price models to the dealer, but that vehicle is also just plain ugly. The more I look at it, the less I like it. And I'm a Honda fan, so that isn't just mindless Honda bashing.

nvbanker

Couldn't agree more, grbeck - the Ridgeline is not only ugly in an Aztek kind of way, the unibody design doesn't allow for a separation of the cab from the bed - making it a seudo truck really. I think if this is the best they can do with a truck, perhaps they should stay with the niche where they are excellent at what they do. The Ridge can't be a real truck built that way.

anonymousposts

a 85% chance I would buy that Euro Civic if they ever brought it over here. 6-speed manual mated to a Honda 4 cylinder engine and plenty of interior room/features? That sounds like a tempting package.

ateixeira

Both those cars didn't come in a manual tranny, as well.

The 3.8l engine is pretty bullet proof but IMO they make for a better long-distance highway cruiser than a sports car.

-juice

rsholland

The Ridge can't be a real truck built that way

I think until Honda Toyota and Nissan produce a full-fledged 3/4-ton HD pickup, one designed to compete head-to-head with Ford Super Duties, et al, those brands in the eyes of some will never have a 'real" truck.

No matter what Honda says regarding who the Ridgeline is aimed at (homeowners, not construction workers), some people—I guess because this is Honda's only pickup truck entry—just can't (or won't) comprehend the fact that it was always designed to be a light-duty pickup, and nothing more. So until a "legit" HD pickup arrives from Honda, the Ridgeline will just have to endure the criticism.

Bob