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Has Honda's run - run out?

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  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I've been hearing the 140 and 160 hp rumors, too. I just don't know if they are based on wishful thinking or real leaks from Honda.

    I'm kinda hoping Honda keeps the EX more powerful, but I'm really not betting on it. Most of the competition offers a base engine across the range, then a hi-po option for their sport model. Honda has that covered with the R18 and K20, plus they have the hybrid and the NG variant. Justifying another for the EX cars only would be tough, IMO.

    Honestly, I'd rather they didn't create an EX engine and instead offered a K20-powered sedan after the MMC along with a non-sporting SE package. Sort of like a US version of the EL.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I agree that Honda's image as a car for the more hip and younger crowd is waning. But I'm not the least bit surprised by it.

    I've got new hires coming to my classes who think Aerosmith is their dad's music. As the fans of a car, a type of music, a genre of movies, or anything else start to age, so does the image of that car, music, etc. Certain steps can be taken to recover a more youthful audience. But it typically means a drastic change or a very slow change.

    Drastic change will often turn away the older fans. Imagine if Aerosmith released a hip-hop album. Imagine if Oldsmobile stopped making cars for old-timers and started using sleeker styling...

    So I think a slower, model by model, approach is the way to go. The introduction of the FIT will get them back in the bargain price arena. The new Si will likely earn them back a wee bit of street cred without killing the basic goodness of the past models. While the Element did not end up being sold only to the youth, it does have a younger buying age than average. So, that was a good step, if only a baby step.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    That price is almost exactly right, according to a Toyota salesman I was chatting with last night. The Camry SE V-6 already has everything you need, unless you want XM radio or curtain airbags. It has some very nice 17" alloys painted a pewter gray - really add to the look of the car. The car I was looking at had a sticker of $26,016, and she hinted that including the $1000 customer cash back running right now, she could sell it to me for right around $22K.

    The Accord already has the side curtains in every trim. But the LX has no moonroof and does have those ugly wheel covers. The EX comes with heated leather only - no variations, no excuses.

    mariner's point is right on: Accord should not be competing for Camry turf, it should offer something different. I am going to drive a Camry SE and an Accord EX back to back just to confirm it, but it seems to me there is precious little in the driving experience to distinguish these two. The Accord uses wishbones all around while the Camry uses struts, and you would think this would make a difference, but apparently not so much.

    varmint: the mistake Honda made with the SI this time around was following its 80s SI formula to a tee: a little faster engine and better seats, pop in a moonroof, keep everything light and sporting. The only problem is, the whole tuner movement happened since those last SIs hit the streets. So now the SI needs to be somewhat "tuned" right out of the box. With the 99-00 SI coupes, it seemed like Honda sort of knew that, but there was no evidence of that knowledge when the 2002 SI hatch was released. Hopefully, they are all too aware of it now for the '06 SI. At least it will cross the 200 hp threshold this time...these days even 200 hp is not a ton of power for a car in this class. It is more like the minimum entry.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    By the end of May 2004 the Camry and Accord sales were tied. This year a 40k car gap. Honda has to be bleeding with that kind of disparity. It may have been the transmission failures. I still think it is the ugly tail end on the Accord. Once they sold to the diehard Honda fans that was it. If they got their designers from GM. That was another good move on GM's part.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Good point. Probably true. I think the current Si is a good car, but they just didn't make it extreme enough. Instead it's a well-balanced vehicle that's sporty without being too uncomfortable. Trouble is, buyers in that target market could care less about being comfortable.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Doubt it. Honda isn't "bleeding". While the Accord is a high volume model, it is not a high profit model. The little bit of money Honda uses for incentives goes to Accords and Civics. Meanwhile, Honda has replaced those Accord sales with sales of Pilots, CR-Vs and Ridgelines. Those trucks yield much higher profits per vehicle.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Imagine if Aerosmith released a hip-hop album

    That might not be the best example. :-)

    Walk This Way was re-released with Run DMC and essentially brought them back from the dead, now they enjoy renewed success.

    Basically they began to appeal to a younger crowd by blending the two together.

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,024
    only knew the Run DMC version of "Walk This Way", and when I introduced him to a new concept called classic rock, he thought the original version was a remake!
  • davem2001davem2001 Member Posts: 557
    By the end of May 2004 the Camry and Accord sales were tied. This year a 40k car gap. Honda has to be bleeding with that kind of disparity. It may have been the transmission failures. I still think it is the ugly tail end on the Accord.

    Didn't the new bodystyle Accord come out as a '03 Model? It's been on the market for almost 3 years now.... I don't see why sales would suddenly drop only after the 2nd year on the market. If the ugly tail and nose were to blame, I would have expected sales to drop right away when the new model came out.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    sales to drop right away when the new model came out.

    There are brand buyers that would have bought the new Accord if it was a garbage can on wheels. The Camry is not gaining over last year. They are pretty much stagnant. Those Accord & Civic buyers went elsewhere, Maybe to Nissan & Hyundai.

    Varmint,
    Is the Ridgeline selling very well? I thought that was another design error. Not attractive to myself or any of the people I work with. Then they are all Ford truck fans. Another ugly truck.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Ask an Aerosmith fan what they think of the rap version of "Walk This Way". Then ask them if they'd buy a whole album full of that stuff.

    Then duck and run for cover. :surprise:

    But you're right. That song did revive their careers. But note they don't mix rap and classic rock with every song. They did one and got their name in big lights. Then went back to to doing what they do best. I wouldn't call that a drastic transition. What happened there is more comparable to what I suggested for Honda... doing a little here and a little there.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "Is the Ridgeline selling very well?"

    Better than it was last year.

    Car sales at Honda are down 37,937 units on the year. Truck sales at Honda are up by pretty much the same number of units (36,070). For every car sale they've lost, they've gained a truck sale. Given that trucks are generally more profitable than cars, I doubt very much the term "bleeding" applies to the company since they are likely making more money than before.

    At Acura (low volume, but high profit), YTD sales are up 8,207 units. Which likely means even more cash added to the coffers.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ask an Aerosmith fan...

    There weren't any left before that song was re-released. At least not buying albums. :-)

    I think they injected a little more soul in all their music, boosted no doubt by that collaboration. And the new listeners are new, i.e. a different generation is buying their music today.

    -juice
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For every car sale they've lost, they've gained a truck sale.

    So you are saying that Honda has not lost any customers. They just decided to buy a truck instead of a car. I can understand. The Odyssey, Pilot and MDX are good looking vehicles, wise switch.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Then they succeeded in shifting their own customers to higher price levels.

    That's not so bad, really.

    -juice
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    Honda's the 3rd most profitable auto company in the world, so in no way is it bleeding a la Detroit. But clearly it's not the youthful, vibrant company it once was. How to fix it? I suggest it moves its products away from the Toyota mold. That's easier said than done though.

    Think about it. Some years ago, Nissan was known for turning out Toyota clones, but of course not quite as well engineered and reliable. It was going nowhere, lost all kinds of money. Back then Honda was the anti-Toyota, turned out innovative, brilliant products, was growing by leaps and bounds.

    Then something changed, almost like the two companies exchanged personalities. For Nissan, the exact moment came when Carlos Ghosn joined as CEO. I know Honda's previous CEO was a dynamic guy who was head of the F1 progam. Maybe the current CEO is very competent, but not as visionary and dynamic, I don't know, but that's a possibility.

    Now Nissan's the anti-Toyota, turning out dynamite products. And Honda products are edging ever closer to Toyota. Toyota casts such a giant shadow that your products can't reach their potential in her shadow. Honda's finding that out. The product managers at Honda (Nissan) should make sure their products are as far away from Toyota as the Nissan (Honda) products.

    That's easier said than done, because Toyota wants to cast a large a shadow as possible (Scion, Avalon, GS). Now its products are better design and more powerful. Styling was one way to get out from Toyota's shadow, and yet Honda hasn't hopped onto any styling bandwagon yet. We'll know for sure when next Civic and Accord show up. IMO, now Toyota has better styling than Honda, when you account for the premium divisions.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Depends on how you measure, but in terms of profit as a % of sales Porsche is on top and Toyota is 2nd. Renault/Nissan are up there in 3rd or 4th (thank Ghosn for that) and Honda was 5th or so IIRC.

    I certainly wouldn't use that data to comment negatively on Honda, though.

    -juice
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It really depends on your views of profitability. IMO a company that makes a lot more money than the next guy, overcharging for their product. Toyota is a case in point.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nope, not if people are willing to pay for it they aren't.

    Markups on the Prius go to *dealers*, which are independent, not Toyota, by the way.

    Toyota is 2nd most profitable even without the markups that those dealers keep to themselves.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "The Ridgeline is Honda's rap version of Walk This Way???"

    :D Sorry, I've confused you.

    The Element is the Rap version of Walk This Way.

    The Ridgeline is the New Age version of Achy Breaky Heart.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "Honda's the 3rd most profitable auto company in the world, so in no way is it bleeding a la Detroit. But clearly it's not the youthful, vibrant company it once was. How to fix it?"

    You're not far off. It was Honda's last CEO who was focused on profits, reducing risk, and many of the less youthful vehicles we have today. That CEO (I've forgotten his name) was very much an engineer. During his tenure profits went through the roof. Vehicles like the Ody, CR-V, 99-03 TL, and MDX were brought to market. Honda factories eliminated a great deal of waste and they instituted the flexible manufacturing system that stunned many engineers when they switched from one generation of the Accord to the next within a weekend. Honda grew several new vehicle lines, and became far more profitable during that period.

    Is that something they'd really want to change? Just to please some pimply-faced youth who can't afford to a buy new cars? Maybe, maybe not.

    The focus on the targets described above also meant a big aversion to risk taking. Many feel that this period is when Honda started to become something of a fuddy-duddy company (hey, it's worked for Toyota!).

    Now, the CEO and president is a guy named Takeo Fukui. As always, he's an engineer. But he's also met journalists after taking an F1 car around the track at 290 kph. He sent a pretty big ripple through the Honda sport enthusiast community when he was quoted in an article with this statement, "I want Honda to give off the smell of danger". Which turned out to be a translation error. "Smell" was not the concept he was going for, but the error actually made the quote more interesting and it got passed around in the news for a while.

    http://www.automfg.com/articles/1204exc07.html

    Anyway... Mr Fukui doesn't appear to be as nervous about taking chances as his predecessor. We'll see how it plays out.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What exactly does danger smell like?

    -juice
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "What exactly does danger smell like?"

    Burning oil from a leaking CR-V oil filter. Heh. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

    Anyway, I like the look of the Accord's new butt.
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    "overcharging for their product. Toyota is a case in point. "

    Is there anything as overcharging? It's a free market, any manufacturer is entitled to earn as much profit as the market can bear. Toyota's factories in NA are the most utilized in the industry, an indication that its cars are in great demand, and it's not overcharging.

    I mean gross profits. I'm pretty sure the ranking for that is Toyota, Nissan & Honda. But as usual when it comes down to size, Nissan and Honda are very close together, and can trade places in a short time.

    Camry/Accord, Sienna/Ody, RAV4/CRV, etc, etc. Segment after segment, the Toyota and Honda are usually the two most similar. Do those two guys spy on each other? Or maybe they do development together and then have the ultimate badge engineering?

    Anyway Toyota by and large has become the standard and the default choice. I don't think in the long run it's healthy for Honda to keep it this way. From now on Honda should go out of its way to differ from Toyota, IMO. "Maintain your identity."
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    From now on Honda should go out of its way to differ from Toyota

    I think they did with that wannabe PU truck. It may be popular some place. Not in So California where PU trucks reign supreme. I have not seen one on the road yet. Maybe in Northern California they are selling. It is uglier than a Nissan Titan and that is UGLY. I think the Asians have decades to go before they make a serious inroad into full size PU trucks. They don't even have a 3/4 ton or diesel truck.
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    I think they did with that wannabe PU truck. It may be popular some place. Not in So California where PU trucks reign" supreme."

    I have to agree with this. Here in Southern California, Honda dealers have a lot of Ridgelines sitting on their lots, not many on the road. I looked at one -it was stickered at 35K. I asked myself---WHAT ARE THEY (HONDA) THINKING? :confuse:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Japan's Honda is about to start exporting its Jazz model which is built in China and 10,000 of them will be made this year exclusively for export to Europe

    http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_eco&lng=1&option=5,eco
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    WHAT ARE THEY (HONDA) THINKING?

    They are not thinking or checking the competition. For $35k I can buy a 3/4 ton Chevy Silverado LT crewcab with a Duramax diesel engine. That truck has an MSRP of $47k. Honda is going to be sitting on the Ridgelines forever at those prices.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    NOW NOW ! The honda faithful will line up like sheep for the slaughter
    with $$$$ IN HAND. Some will prob. pay sticker or over too !
    .................Chuckle!!!!

    Anyhoo......In my neck of the woods of NY there are LOTS of ridgelines
    to choose from. I do see a few folks commenting on waiting tho. in some areas.
    Take a trip over to the Smart Shopper or Pickup threads here or elsewhere.
    A few unhappy ridgeline owners.........esp. build quality issues..........

    I am waiting to see the sales numbers for last month......................
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Some people will complain even if you give them a hot tub in their new truck. I think the Ridgeline got off to a wet start. I saw a review praising the vehicle. I think they were hoping Honda would give them a free one for a good review. Honda is having a bad run of luck. they build the highest mileage hybrid on the market and can't sell a 100 per month. They have the cleanest car ever tested by the EPA in the Civic GX and they cannot get rid of them. The Civic & Accord hybrids are selling very poorly. They are probably making a killing on the Odyssey and Pilot so not all is gloom and doom. I would consider an Odyssey EX if they ever bring the prices down to reality.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Honda is probably selling those hybrids at a thin profit margin if not a loss, it's probably not bad that they aren't selling very well. I'm sure Toyota would somehow come up with more Prius's if they were actually making money on them.

    There are 53 posts in the Ridgeline problems forum. Is that really enough to say that the car is off to a bad start? If you only saw one review praising the Ridge, you need to read more. Every review has praised it. Heck it's even won some comparos. Even at that inflated price.

    Sales numbers for last month have been out for a while. Go to the Honda web site. http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2001?mid=2005070148995&mime=asc

    Most important thing I've heard is that they are introducing a 6MT V6 sedan next year. Looks like we might be buying yet another one of this generation Accord.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    If it wasn't for the 3500 or so ridgelines that were sold.... honda would
    of sold LESS vehicles compared to June 04................

    Maybe hondas run HAS run out...............................
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    But they have also sold 45K less Civics and Accords. Looks like they are selling a lot more of SOMETHING.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,393
    I think lots of those somethings are Odysseys, which sold quite a few more Y-t-Y IIRC.

    Sure about the 6MT sedan? WOnder how much that will cost? I like everything else about the car (except the butt, which supposedly is getting fixed too). Drove a coupe, and it was sweet, but I didn't want a 2 door that big.

    WOnder what that will cost? Best as I can recall, the 2 door was overpriced, but at least it's one more thing to consider, but I would probably be better off with a new Civic!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The high-profit Odyssey sales are up 16.3% year-to-date.

    http://www.hondanews.com/CatID2001?mid=2005070148995&mime=asc

    Bob
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    That was the big news on the seventh. All I know is that we've been waiting for this to happen. We've owned 3 of this generation Accord and I like the changes they are makiing on the next one. I was already considering one when this lease is up. But now I'm almost sure that a new Accord is in the cards. I think i'm gonna get a Mazda5 when the Ody goes back. That thing is neat.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    the 6-speed sedan to cost that much more than a 6-speed coupe which is about $27,000 MSRP and can be had for around $24,500. The first few will probably be sold for close to MSRP but they should be good and cheap by the time the lease is up on our 04 EX-L 4-cylinder in July 2007. Just when I had decided to keep the Accord for at least 5 years.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    went out for a beer to a sports bar. One of us had just bought a brand new Honda Accord V6 EX in blue. Anyhoo.. my friend started bragging about how great his Honda was... and blah, blah on and on about how they were the tops in quality, reliablity ect. Another guy who was a GM fan of course chimed in about how GM turned itself around and is making its name known also. We all walked out to our cars and started to leave, of course after checking out the guys new Accord. Anyway the guy starts his car, goes to pull out and we all notice no brake lights!!?? or tail lights at all! We flag him down and checked his fuses and they were all ok. The guy who owned the car was peeved off and of course embarrased. And as guys do we rubbed salt in the wound..... :cry:
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    they are like smoke, shifting in the wind. Are they really out there? I e-mailed three dealers in my area for a quote on an EX stick shift. Two told me flat out "no", one told me in a jokey "tone" that while a manual shift accord EX was OFFERED, it was not actually AVAILABLE. I am sure the same will be true if they decide to OFFER a stick shift V-6 sedan, which I might be very interested in.

    I went looking at Odysseys: the only way to get one equipped with a rear seat DVD player, that I could see, was to buy a Touring or EX-L, both of which have leather seats (and start at about $30K sticker). Leather seats for the munchkins who will be watching those DVDs? Why? Not likely.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    That's because those dealers want to sell you the cars they currently have in inventory, and the automatics have a higher price tag. The manuals are out there. You just have to order them. I know many who have.
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    It's official; NSX production will cease for 2006 - and there will be a successor!

    The press release was more about the end of the NSX. No details on the successor yet, and it'll probably be a while before we hear anything new.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    at least 5 were available. Even more if you decide you don't want leather. We have only seen two EX-L with Nav in the 4 cylinder/5-speed manual combo but we have seen several EX-L 5-speeds and cloth EX's.

    Now, depending on how many dealers are in your area it is very possible that they have sold out of the 5-speeds. They don't build too many and we are only a couple of month's away from the 2006's hitting the lots. That would mean that the factory is slowing down production of the 05's so they won't have tons of them left over when the improved 06's hit.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    If it wasn't for the 3500 or so ridgelines that were sold.... honda would
    of sold LESS vehicles compared to June 04................

    Maybe hondas run HAS run out...............................


    When GM has entries that can actually compete with the Odyssey and the Accord - without 1/3 of total production being unloaded on fleets, and the rest requiring hefty incentives to sell - then maybe we can say that GM's 25-year BAD RUN has run out. ;)
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    My comment WAS that honda would of sold LESS vehicles in
    June o5 vs. June 04.
    The ridgelines PALTRY 3500 units saved them .........................

    I said nothing about minivans.............. :confuse: ">
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Lemme get this straight. Honda's run has ended because they are now selling some trucks instead of relying on Accords and Civics?

    Yeah, that's a big problem.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,393
    I was getting pretty excited about the new Civic. After seeing some more (mostly undisquised) spy shots, I'm not so sure. Maybe it will look OK in person, and if the interior is done right, and the new engine is "all that", it will be a winner, but I'm not so sure about the styling.

    That is for the Sedan actually. The coupe looks like it will be a big winner, just in a smaller market place.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And don't forget - at PHENOMENALY high price points.

    I'm sure it's killing them.

    -juice
  • chuck1chuck1 Member Posts: 1,405
    "Lemme get this straight. Honda's run has ended because they are now selling some truck"

    at 35K they are not going to be selling a lot of them.........
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