Has Honda's run - run out?

varmint

The donut spare is silly. A bad idea that stinks of cost-cutting. Dealers will sell customers a full-size (which fits in the same spot), but it's an added cost. No question... it's a bad idea.

I don't have the same problem with the location. Honda built in a spot on the wall of the bed where you can mount the tire if loading the bed with something that cannot be removed easily. All it takes is a wee bit of brain power to avoid Mr Plywood's problem. Were it my truck, I'd leave the spare there most of the time.

newcar31

I like cars, but I'm not really into sales numbers and stuff like that. I know the TL sells well, but that doesn't matter to me, I'd still like to see some RWD Hondas. I know it will probably never happen, but I would like to see Honda/Acura build something RWD like a 3 series, IS, or G35, because I like those kinds of cars and because I know Honda could make a good one. The TL and RL should be using RWD platforms IMHO.

I think Honda should do what Nissan has been doing for a while. Nissan has the FM RWD platform and uses it for the G35, 350Z, M35/45, FX35/45, and Murano, and they're all pretty good vehicles.

Why can't Honda have just one RWD platform and use it for many applications?

ctalk

I'd like to see RWD on Hondas to. Also, i would like if they would introduce a V8 to the RL, like what Lexus did with its GS. The Ridgeline could use a V8 to.

bdr127

all I can say is I hope their Ridgeline gets a flat while pulling their 5K boat trailer

I hope there's nothing else in the boat, either.... cuz the Ridgeline can only tow 5000 lbs! I can't believe they have the nerve to call it a "full-size truck". (I guess the body is "full-size".) Man, even a Ford Ranger and Mazda B4000 can tow more!

rsholland

You're absolutely right, in that a full-size spare will fit where the donut is stored, so why the donut? To save a few pennys? You're also right about the in-bed tire mounting option, and I too would likely use that spot, especially if I were putting the vehicle at greater risk, in terms of potential tire failure. The problem there is I don't think you can use a bed cover with the tire in that location.

A lot of this comes down to ignorance. Ignorance on the customer's part as well as on Honda's part. Honda didn't know enough to ask the right questions, and the customers weren't able to give well thought out answers to whatever questions were put to them. When Honda was doing their early research when planning this vehicle, how many Honda (car) owners would have been asked about the spare tire? And if they were—and coming mostly from car experiences (rather than truck experiences)—how many would care about the spare tire? Probably not many, which is why the spare ended up being what it is.

Bob

stickguy

complain too much, and they will stick PAX tires on it!

rsholland

They don't call it a fullsize truck. They never have. Honda has always referred to it as a midsize truck. It's the public who keep comparing it to fullsize trucks.

Part of the confusion is because it's really a "tweener." It preforms like a midsize; but is almost as wide as fullsize trucks, and can carry 4x8 paneling flat on the bed floor like a fullsize truck.

Bob

explorerx4

some of the most vocal promoters of the 'ridge are now claiming some of those paradigm changing ideas, maybe aren't so good after all.

carlisimo

I've always heard that Honda is "too small" to develop all-new platforms or to have a place to manufactur them. Are they really that small? What do they mean by small?

But I'm not so convinced that RWD is that big a deal, other than as a status thing. You can have more fun with it, yes, but how many people ever turn off traction control? 50/50 weight distribution is also more of a "feel" thing than a performance figure. You can get skidpad numbers just as high with FWD. Basically, FWD can do just as well in an autocross and that's what matters to me. (The current record is held by a Mini Cooper S, though before that it was a 911 turbo.)

The TSX is a whole lot more spacious than the 3-series and its handling is great. I know a few autocrossers who would take a TSX over a 3-series, saying that in the 3 it was great how it would point where you wanted it to go, but it would take longer to actually turn there. Good handling, good interior space, and less weight than a RWD setup. It's like having your cake and eating it, too. If it was RWD, its rear seats would suck as much as the 3's do. That doesn't matter for a two-seater, and that's why Honda made the NSX and S2000 RWD. (On the other hand, this argument doesn't work with the Prelude.)

I don't think Honda should go RWD except for its larger cars (TL, RL). But in those two, I don't see how RWD would be better than SH-AWD.

explorerx4

to me the worst cars to drive in snow are fwd. the engines are too powerful.
regarding sh-awd, i guess bmw, lexus, and mercedes are just trying to save money by not using awd(?).

ctalk

RWD cars are the worst in the snow, you can hardly move and you tend to fish-tail a lot. I drove a BMW in the winter, and even with snow tires its horrible.

hpmctorque

"...50/50 weight distribution is also more of a "feel" thing than a performance figure. You can get skid pad numbers just as high with FWD. Basically, FWD can do just as well in an autocross..."

I agree, but for me feel and driving dynamics are just as important as raw numbers in the near luxury and luxury categories. FWD works best for mini size cars and for mass market compacts and family size cars, such as Accords, but I maintain that RWD is a better proposition for near-luxury and luxury class vehicles.

rsholland

some of the most vocal promoters of the 'ridge are now claiming some of those paradigm changing ideas, maybe aren't so good after all.

Note post dated March 5th 2005

rsholland, "The Forums Test Drive Team" #150, 5 Mar 2005 5:43 pm

And specifically this post, also March 5th 2005

rsholland, "The Forums Test Drive Team" #151, 5 Mar 2005 5:48 pm

I also published a similar editorial in an op/ed column that I wrote for another web site back on Feburary 14th 2005. It was on the Detroit Auto Show and specifically focused on the Ridgeline. So, I'm not a "Jonhny-come-lately" in terms of reporting the negatives of the Ridgeline, as much as you would like to think. I'd publish the link, but it's from a competing web site, which is against Edmunds rules. If you want it give me your e-mail address, and I will send you the link.

I have stated from day one what is good about the Ridgeline and what was bad about the Ridgeline. My record speaks for itself, and people who have really been following my postings know that. I have no apologies to make here.

Bob

grbeck

lemmer: Iwon't quibble with people who dislike the looks of the Ridgeline, but calling an El Camino very handsome is just bizarre to me.

They are quite good looking, in my view. The basic 1966-72 Chevelle was a handsome vehicle, and GM did a great job of mating the front with a pickup bed.

imidazol97

I liked the ElCamino styling too. It was really nicely styled and macho. I would like to have had one. I still notice them with fond memories when I see one drive by today--or at a car show.

ateixeira

I think the fact that a full-size spare will fit ought to appease the folks that have enough initiative to buy one and do just that. We're talking $200 tops for a steelie with a "real" tire on it.

We did that on our 2002 Legacy. Cost me $67 for the tire and the rim was free because we got alloys, so I ended up with 4 spare rims. Sold 2 of them, mounted the full-size tire on another and replaced the donut, and I still have one left.

It's not a big deal, really. I have peace of mind because I know my wife is driving around with a true spare in the back and would never have to suffer the humiliation or driving around on one of those donuts. See pic below for emphasis.

It's just not a big deal, IMO, as long as a full-sizer fits.

The issue of having to remove it when the bed is loaded is a bigger inconvenience, IMO. I doubt the Ridgeline would be used like that on a daily basis, but do you really want to have to do that every time you go to the mulch yard to get a yard of wood chips? I don't.

The former is something you fix early on and just once. Order a tire and rim and voila, done, problem solved.

The latter is not. You'd have to remove it every time you use the bed.

-juice

PS Pics of my full-size vs. donut that was replaced

ateixeira

Also keep in mind that while donuts are engineered to go 50 mph for a pretty good distance, when you have AWD, ABS, and stability control, the small difference in the circumference of the tire can have an adverse effect on those 3 systems.

-juice

bdr127

i guess bmw, lexus, and mercedes are just trying to save money by not using awd(?).

BMW and Mercedes have many AWD models. Lexus does not have any AWD sedans, but have 4WD SUVs.

ateixeira

The GS300 comes with AWD as an option.

Mercedes has the option on the whole lineup (but not SLK). So does Audi.

BMW has a few choices, but not all.

I'm a big fan of AWD but there are people that just don't want it. It's not often chosen in Florida or Texas.

FWD can do well in autoX but a biggie is a front LSD of some sort, otherwise you spin the inside tire uselessly coming out of a turn.

-juice

newcar31

I'm a big fan of AWD but there are people that just don't want it. It's not often chosen in Florida or Texas.

It's not surprising that people in Texas and Florida don't want AWD because it's not necessary and it's wasteful.

stickguy

You don't have to unload the whole bed, just enough to get the door open. So, depending on the load, you may be able to just push it to the back of the bed.

rsholland

Good point.

Bob

1racefan

with it being a little more "luxurious" (I use this term loosley) than a lot of trucks, I would like to have seen Honda engineer a way to have a full size spare located somewhere under the vehicle (maybe in an enclosure), that would be operated by a pulley system. To take it a step farther, I would also like for them to make it an electrically powered system. Push a button, and bam, the spare is lowered to the ground. When you are through, push a button and have it raise back up. Of course, this would need to have a manual override just in case it were to fail.

ateixeira

Dunno if it would be a problem in those 3 areas, though.

-juice

varmint

Because the Ridgeline isn't expensive enough already?

How about engineering a hover mode?

1racefan

"How about engineering a hover mode?

Hover mode would be cool. Then you wouldn't have to worry with towing a boat - you could just take straight to the water with your RL.

In all seriousness, an electronic pulley setup for a spare wouldn't cost very much at all. I am sure even if it pushed the total cost of the vehicle up another couple hundred dollars, it would still be a drop in the bucket in relation to what the cost of a RL already is - by no means would it be enough $ to make or break the sell of a RL. Although I am sure it could have been engineered from the begining still at the price it currently is.

isellhondas

No, Bob...not so much to save dollars but to save WEIGHT. I know I would much rather slide that temp spare out than wrestle with a full sized spare.

I know Honda and how they operate. They ask LOTS of questions before making a product decision. What is a major thing to a few people, and I think I'm right when I say a few people does not concern the majority of buyers.

I guess if it's THAT big of a deal, a person could simply buy a full sized assembly and slide it in there.

rsholland

What is a major thing to a few people, and I think I'm right when I say a few people does not concern the majority of buyers.

Which will hurt them in trying to win over "truck" people. As you state, most "car" people could care less about the spare tire (or lack of a low range). It's clear that most of the people you are seeing in your showrooms are coming from a history of owning cars, not trucks.

Bob

anonymousposts

It's clear that most of the people you are seeing in your showrooms are coming from a history of owning cars, not trucks.

Which is why the Ridgeline will make sense to them. It can do most of what the big V8 trucks can do but gets about 5-7 MPG better and offers better handling and presumably, a smoother ride.

rsholland

You're preaching to the choir here, you don't have to sell me on the Ridgeline. It's a great vehicle, but a great vehicle with a few lapses in good judgment.

Bob

ateixeira

I think most Ridgeline owners would not be changing that spare themselves, I mean who doesn't have some sort of roadside assistance nowadays?

The type of people that don't care whether it's a donut are the same type of people that would use their cell phone to dial AAA to come change their tires. LOL

-juice

newcar31

It can do most of what the big V8 trucks can do but gets about 5-7 MPG better and offers better handling

The Ridgeline obviously won't work for someone who needs one of those "big V8 trucks" (someone who needs to tow more than a few jetskis). It's really not fair to compare the Ridgeline to one of those "big V8 trucks".

isellhondas

You could be right but I have yet to hear this from even one Ridgeline shopper.

And, my customers usually don't hold back either. If they don't like something, I'll hear about it!

rsholland

That's what i'm saying. Most of your Ridgeline customers I bet are coming from cars, not trucks. Or if they already have a truck, it's probably a second or third family vehicle, and not their primary vehicle

Bob

gee35coupe

There are very few exceptions. Considering the intended use of the RL, how often it will be carrying anything too big to unload, the frequency of flat tires, and the fact Honda more tan likely designed the spare with some heavy duty use in mind, the spare tire thing is pretty much moot. It's not like everyone has flats once a month. The car was designed as a mass produced product, not a custom designed vehicle for each different customer. I mean they built all thier cars monospec by model with no special options. You want a full sized spare, go to the parts counter order yourself a steel wheel and get a cheapo tire. Less than $200 spent to solve that crucial problem.

newcar31

The frequency of flat tires doesn't have anything to do with it. If you're using that logic, then I guess we probably won't need a spare tire at all, let's just throw it in the garage because it's just extra weight.

What is the frequency of accidents? We still have airbags, ABS, crumple zones, which most people never use, yet they come in handy when they're needed. Right?

The problem isn't 100% solved with a full size spare either.

The spare is still in the bed.....in a pick up truck. :confuse:

I tell ya......you, anon, and that Honda salesman.....Honda can do no wrong in your eyes.

gee35coupe

In many models. They are replacing them with cans of fix-a-flat or runflats so that statement is already coming to fruition.

The difference between the need for a flat vs. safety devices speaks for itself. Not having a spare won't kill you. Although there are people who question the need for ABS and some people REALLY hate seat belts. So I guess an argument can be waged about durn near anything.

rsholland

The key word in your thread title is "car." The Ridgeline is not a "car;" nor will find any other "pickup" maker doing that. They all make the spare tire accessible whether there's a load in the bed or not.

Bob

gee35coupe

So the RL is coming from a different mode of thinking right out of the box. Other "pickups" are RWD based. The RL driveline is FWD based. There is no other "pickup" with IRS. In closing there are a lot of other things that Honda did diferently with the RL so the spare is the least of the "differences".

The RL may not be a "car" per se. But it is the closest thing to a car that has ever been called a "pickup".

rsholland

The RL may not be a "car" per se. But it is the closest thing to a car that has ever been called a "pickup".

Not so. There was the Chevy El Camino, Ford Ranchero, Subaru Baja, not to mention a whole host of car-based pickups (UTEs) currently sold in Australia and elsewhere. All these are far more car-oriented than the Ridgeline.

I wholeheartedly welcome the IRS, and all the other innovations—all except the donut and its location.

Bob

gee35coupe

car. Also RWD. Was there ever a 4wd version? Probably nice for what was being built at the time but pretty much irrelavant when comparing it to a RL. Not to mention the tight fir of the inerior for more than 2 people. I had a buddy that had one while stationed in 29 Palms. Not the best car for Palm Springs runs.
Same for the Ranchero.

Australia??? Does that matter? Australia along with many other parts of the world get many vehicles that AREN'T AVAILABLE in the U.S. so no use in comparing. That's like complaining BMW not giving us the 1 series or Benz not sending the SMART cars here.

The Baha comes to mind. But it was quite a bit smaller than the RL. And the "bed" wasn't ever large enough to be called a pickup. Actually the same could probably be said for the El Camino too.

If anything could be gleaned from those cars though is that it shows the U.S. market doesn't seem to like this type of vehicle since those models are now defunct. Let'[s see if Honda can prove successful at it. Temporary spare and all.

newcar31

So the RL is coming from a different mode of thinking right out of the box.

Yeah, putting the spare in the bed of a pickup is really a different mode of thinking. It sounds like you're trying to make this out to be an innovation, when it's really an oversight. If this "different mode of thinking" came from any other automaker, you'd be all over it.

gee35coupe

I really don't have any preference about the spare. As long as I have one. I haven't said one thing about the Vette with it's run flats even though I think run-flats are a stupid idea not to mention they have a reputation for being hard and noisy. Or the cars that include a can of fix-a-flat in place of a spare. I don't even know where the spare is on my Ody but if it's in the interior I guess the same "if it's loaded and I have a flat, I'll have to unload it" argument could be made there.

But hey that's not one of my "hot buttons".

rsholland

Australia??? Does that matter? Australia along with many other parts of the world get many vehicles that AREN'T AVAILABLE in the U.S. so no use in comparing. That's like complaining BMW not giving us the 1 series or Benz not sending the SMART cars here.

I disagree. If gas prices keep rising don't be surprised if we see some of those vehicles here too. Besides, you said car-based pickups, not car-based pickups only sold in the USA.

Speaking of other markets, does anyone think the Ridgeline will ever be exported to other parts of the world? Australia, for example?

Bob

rsholland

But hey that's not one of my "hot buttons".

You don't tow or go off-road either. As I said earlier, just about every other midsize and 1/2-ton pickup comes with a fullsize spare standard. There's a reason for that.

Bob

gee35coupe

What about the teeny little FWD trucklets from Japan with 2 or 3 cylinder engines. Just think what a stink those would cause here.

But anyway...there aren't any other vehicles other than the Avalanche that combine the power, size, and carlike construction, trucklike utility of the RL.

gee35coupe

But considering that it's been written that a very small minority actually take the trucks off the asphalt, that would probably be a small consideration for a RL buyer. That wouldn't be that person's "hot button". They aren't trying to take over the market. I mean with all the empty Tahoes I see driving around with one person in them, obviously fuel economy wasn't thier "hot button" when they bought it. I know a woman with one child and her husband that HAD to have a Tahoe just because. Bought a 2wd Tahoe early this year for no other reason than she wanted one. It's not going off road and she's not pulling anything with it.

She would be the perfect RL buyer. And since Honda sells hundreds of thousands of cars every year to loyal customers, the feel that there should be a few of those that want a truck just for the utility of it going to Home Depot, not striking a new trail in the Yukon.

rsholland

Well, as your post indicates Honda is not going after the typical truck customer. I don't agree with your off-road assessment, however. One of the reasons many people buy trucks (over an SUV) is that they do go off road. The "they don't go off-road" argument may work for SUV customers, but it won't work for pickup truck customers.

But forget the off road issue, you neglected the towing issue. Honda claims the Ridgeline can tow tow 5K, in fact they promote that aspect rather vigorously in their marketing. Only a fool (or someone inexperienced in towing) would tow a 5K trailer knowing they have only a donut to rely on if they should get a flat. At the very least, Honda should include a fullsize spare as part of the tow package.

Bob

gee35coupe

Should go out and buy a full sized spare. Just like a fool that drives in the snow should buy chains or snow tires. Or a fool that needs to tow MORE than 5000 pounds should buy another truck. Or a fool that want to do some heavy off roading should do the same. This is not the truck/car for them. There are many other vehicles more suited for those purposes.

Like I said, Honda builds monospec. If they don't build what you want, you have to move on.

rsholland

��5{���������a smart [non-permissible content removed]. I'm putting forth some very real and relevant points. As to moving on and buying another better suited vehicle, apparently many customers are doing just that, as Ridgeline's sales aren't what Honda they hoped they would be.

Bob