remedies. Especially the spare tire one. If you think having a flat while towing that trailer would overwhelm the temp spare that one of the steps you should take to prepare the vehicle is to replace the spare. I personnally don't think the spare would prove a problem if you remember it is a TEMPORARY spare and just use it until you can get the regular tire repaired/replaced and keep the speeds down. I'm sure it was sized to where it will put minimal strain on the driveline at the minimal speeds it was designed to be used.
Considering the latest fad of 20-24" rims on trucks, there seems to be a lot less concern about spare tire compatibility. What size spare is recommended when you have 24" rims on your blingmoblie?
Blingmobile? They deserve to get flats, and I hope they all do.
I still say, at the very least, make a fullsize spare part of the tow package. You can always argue that the customer "should have known better," but the fact of the matter is—they often don't. I believe it's Honda's responsibilty to provide the best equipment they can for towing. Asking to include a fullsize spare tire as being part of the tow package is not at all unreasonaible.
for Ridge's slow sales HAS to be its price. This thing should be priced identically to the Odyssey - Pilot pretty much is - and there shouldn't be any model that gets up to $35K, as it seems the top of the line Ridge can do.
BTW, speaking of blingmobiles, I saw a Ridge today - black - with the 20+ inch rims in shiny chrome, cruising down the boulevard. Now THERE was a guy (a young guy, BTW) that had NO idea what kind of spare was in his trunk! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If you want to go into the Ridgeline in detail, head on over to the Honda Ridgeline SUT discussion. Let's keep this one more about the direction of Honda in general.
Well, I have been real interested in the Civic. The spy pics look great to me. Honda has also done a nice job recently with interiors (our Odyssey is a big upgrade over the previous model IMO. Same with the Accord.
But, the recent spy shots of the interior of the new Civic have me worried. maybe it will look better in person, but that dash olloks kinda funky. I actually like the euro one better I think!
like what I have seen so far of the 2006 Civic. Won't really know for sure until we see the official and complete photos. If the Civic lives up to my expectations then it will be a tough decision between buying a Si coupe with NAV or sending my Accord back and buying an EX sedan 5-speed manual with NAV. Either way if I buy a Civic it will have NAV.
Have there been any more recent shots of the Civic interior? The only pics I have seen show the interior with a big piece of fabric covering the dash.
hard for me to swallow paying more than 10% of the price of the car just for Nav! Plus, the way you burn through wheels (and the number you have at any one time), wouldn't a high-end protable make more sense?
Also, there were some pics of the uncovered dash on the other site that is fond of engine technology. I don't think they were posted here, but check the 2006 Civic thread anyway.
We've actually been pretty good lately. Haven't jumped the gun since July 2004. That might change when the lease ends on our Ody though. I want the factory NAV. It just looks integrated whereas an aftermarket unit would look, well ... aftermarket.
Overall, I like the Civic's interior. Not sure about that steering wheel though. Maybe it's a preproduction model. It really does remind me of the 90-93 Integra.
I'm just hoping that the digital speedometer doesn't make the transition to the production cars. I never liked them when they were a fad in the 1980s, and the intervening years haven't changed my opinion.
I'm guessing that the new Civic will come out in early September? And the facelifted Accord as well?
New testing reveals RL has only 290, not 300; MDX has 253, not 265. Similar story with Toyota.
Strange thing is that if any Japanese automaker was expected to be caught, it would be Nissan, who's been using power to sell more than any. For now, Nissan is cleared.
Question is: what will Honda and Toyota do for the buyers, or should do? Remember Mazda extended the warranties for RX8 owners.
Honda and Toyota took advantage of the freedoms/loopholes in the old standards, but technically they were following them. So they don't have to do anything for customers, who could theoretically test their engines and achieve the same rating. (I think the test let you control air temperature and how fast the parasitic accessories were running.)
I think all cars should be tested at the wheels; a 10hp difference is pointless when you don't know what the drivetrain losses are.
there has been no hp "inflation", just a change to SAE testing procedures to make results more precise and uniform among the carmakers.
Mazda's (and Hyundai's) reported hp figures were actually wrong during that whole PR mess they both suffered a couple of years back - un-duplicatable (is that a word?!) by independent testing facilities. That was not the case with Toy/Hon.
However, it is clear that Toy/Hon were using all the little advantages that the previous testing procedures allowed, since among the major manufacturers they are the only ones where most models' hp is going down. But I DID hear that TSX is going UP, to 205 hp.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Honda and Toyota took advantage of the freedoms/loopholes in the old standards, but technically they were following them. So they don't have to do anything for customers"
Then why did the rest of the auto industry get it right on their hp ratings and not Honda/Toyota? The bottom line is that Honda and Toyota over-inflated claims of their engines horsepower, just like Mazda had done with RX8, Ford with one of it's mustangs a few yrs back, Hyundai with Sonata etc. Those company's either extended the warranties or gave some $$ back, which is what Toyota-Honda should do. If you paid for a car with 210hp and it was really only 190hp, wouldn't you want some kind of corrective action? Have to disagree with you on Honda/Toyota NOT having to do anything for customers.
In the same new SAE tests, the American cars stayed the same or actually have more hp now. Caddy XLR gained 29hp under new test. Z06 gained 5hp.
"However, it is clear that Toy/Hon were using all the little advantages that the previous testing procedures allowed, since among the major manufacturers they are the only ones where most models' hp is going down. But I DID hear that TSX is going UP, to 205 hp."
I would want some $$ back on my car from the mfg if that was the case. They know HP sells in today's market even with higher gas prices. One of a vehicles major selling points is it's HP rating. You will see some CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS over this. False advertising.
NOTE, if GM or Ford had done this it would be Breaking News and make the major headlines. I noticed how the press so far has kept it relatively quiet with Honda-Toyota.
"NOTE, if GM or Ford had done this it would be Breaking News and make the major headlines. I noticed how the press so far has kept it relatively quiet with Honda-Toyota"
This is obviously a very personal issue for you, so I won't dwell too much on it, but this is not the same thing at all as the Mazda and Hyundai issues of past years, which were in fact false advertising, yes. The SAE testing procedures were new for '06, and for '06 Honda is advertising all its models that have been retested with the new lower hp figures. Toyota is doing the same. And didn't the Caddy STS drop in hp too? There were some GM models that did so, this is not even remotely exclusive to Honda and Toyota by any stretch of the imagination. It was just more widespread at Toy/Hon.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's clear these two played fast and loose. Who would've thought, they are among the most conservative.
Acura has been selling HP for a long time, since the old TLS. Some wondered why Acuras couldn't beat the less powerful Infinitis. We all thought it came down to RWD/FWD thing. Now we know there's another factor.
As far as I know there were no GM models that lied about their HP ratings, only ones that stayed the same or increased according to that link/article. Some like Caddy XLR gained 29hp, nice!
It's a shame either way. I would be annoyed about it. Something you don't expect from Toyota-Honda.
is an incorrect characterization, IMO. They followed the existing rules in testing their cars, and are now following the new rules, and reporting the results publicly.
Anyway, done with that. I think it is commendable that Honda retested all its models (going beyond the mandate of the new rules), as did Toyota, while GM/Ford/Nissan/Chrysler did not. So we will never know what many existing models from those manufacturers would have tested at under the new regulations.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Honda has typically put more power to the wheels than other competitors."
Where did you get that info from?
But since ALL honda cars are Front Wheel Drive, they do put a higher % of the hp to the drive wheels, less LOSS in a FWD setup as opposed to more loss in a RWD set up, like Infiniti.
Until Honda comes out with a RWD sedan or car you won't see me buying one.
"is an incorrect characterization, IMO. They followed the existing rules in testing their cars, and are now following the new rules, and reporting the results publicly."
The Domestics followed the existing rules too and they came up with the same or greater hp ratings after going from the old and new rules. They tested what they had to under the new mandates. Admit it, Toyota-Honda dropped the ball somewhere. I would not be a happy camper if I found out I didn't get the HP that was advertised to me. Who knows if they won't do it again either? Maybe as good faith they could extend the warranty on the cars effected to 4yr 50k. They now have to do damage control on this to their customers. To each their own, we would all handle it differently. Enough said.
"Until Honda comes out with a RWD sedan or car you won't see me buying one."
Great, but there are others out there like myself who will. No reason to fault those who don't mind it. For the $$$ I'd being buying TL's all day before I'd even look at a 300C or Craptacular Touring Sedan. RWD is not a deal breaker here.
Honda, Toyota, and others took advantage of the loopholes in the old standards. There's no question about that. And, for my part, I think that taking advantage of a loop hole is not a nice thing to do. These companies got caught with their hands in the cookie jar and deserve a slap on the wrist.
That said, nobody is going to win any law suits against them. What they did was legal.
For now, these new standard are optional. Honda and Toyota have come forward and begun publishing figures under the new guidelines for 2006. Even though they are not required to do so.
Ford, GM, Nissan, and others are opting out of the new standards for the time being. So, with the exception of those engines which THEY CHOSE to have retested, we will never know if they also over-rated their engines in a similar manner. They are only posting figures under the new SAE standards for engines which are redesigned. In other words, giving them time to boost HP so that it covers the loss they might've experienced
With respect to Honda and Acura vehicles, the TSX, Accord V6 and I4 have gained HP because the engines were tweaked for higher output this year. The gains are not the result of the new standards. Had they reported HP under the old standards, we probably would have seen gains of about 10HP over the total output from the old engines. Instead we are only seeing gains of 3-4 HP.
Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.
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I thought the American car companies were famous for dyno testing cherry picked engines to get their rated horsepower. Maybe that ended years ago, but from what I understand Japanese/German companies ensure that all of their production line meets the rated horsepower whereas GM/Ford ensure that some engines would meet the rated horsepower (with a large tolerance for variable HP outputs among the total engine production). There are always rumors (with dyno tests to back it up) that BMW and VW engines of recent vintage are underrated.
As long as the manufacturers have leeway in the testing, the corporate culture is going to affect the results.
CAR reports new Civic complies with new EU regulation by having a buffer zone in the nose to protect pedestrians in an accident.
I remember critics were unanimous in condemning that regulation, saying we're doomed to having ugly cars. But new Civic seems the best looking in its long history. The stylists seem to figure a way to use that regulation to their advantage.
"Japanese/German companies ensure that all of their production line meets the rated horsepower whereas GM/Ford ensure that some engines would meet the rated horsepower (with a large tolerance for variable HP outputs among the total engine production)."
lemmer, that sounds like mad-cow testing. The Japanese test every single cow, the Europeans test a very large percentage. We test a very small percentage, it's getting better though, our percentage was ridiculously small.
Honda has quite a bit of research and work in pedestrian impact safety. A few years back, they created the first (maybe only) crash dummy specifically designed for testing of this sort. While the Civic is the first to be designed with the EU specs in mind, earlier Hondas (like the CR-V) were designed with similar gaps between the engine and hood.
As for the look of the Civic, I love the new coupe. Not so wild about the sedan. It looks a bit chunky. There are some things I do like about it, but I'm on the fence.
i agree with you about lawsuits. the ford/mazda issue were taken care of because they are halo cars, and it was a matter of customer satisfaction. the only reason it was 'discovered' in the first place was because people had their cars dyno tested. i don't picture too many mainstream sedan drivers doing that. a related issue is the the new 'stang 'might' be a bit underrated for hp. there are aftermarket vendors claiming guaranteed hp gains. why do you(not varm) think that is?
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
I agree - love the Si coupe, but I'm waiting until I see the sedan in real life until I pass judgment.
It definitely looks more "upscale." It will be interesting to see what Honda charges for it, and how it stacks up against the Cobalt and Focus. Depending on the price, it could give those two real trouble.
I don't think the halo status of the Ford & Mazda vehicles was the reasons for backtracking on the published HP. The reason was... even using the loopholes allowed under the old standards... they couldn't get the engines to perform to spec.
That's not the same thing as we're seeing with the new SAE standards. The Toyotas and Hondas in question DO perform up to spec according to the old standards.
Frankly, whenever prior Ford/Mazda mistakes are mentioned, it's usually an import fan throwing mud to cover embarrassment about their favorite cars. The issues involved in those fiascoes are completely different.
For my part, I think performance testing is about the only way to truly gauge what's going on under the hood. BMWs have long been thought under-rated. I wouldn't doubt that the Mustang is too. Oddly enough, so have many Hondas.
For example... according the new SAE standards, the TSX should have been cranking out less than the published 200 hp and 166 ft-lbs at the flywheel. Yet, several dyno tests done on stock cars suggested that the engine was under-rated. Even with the drivetrain sapping some of the power, it was producing 170 whp (a loss of 15%) and 152 ft-lbs (only 9%). Given that typical drivetrain losses are about 15%, the claim of 200 hp seems dead accurate. Meanwhile, the published claim of 166 ft-lbs seemed too low. TOV even got 179 whp and 158 from a dyno.
Bottom line... even though we know Acura was "cheating" with the old SAE standards, that particular car seems to back up the old claims. And that has been true with many other cars.
So, for my money, I'll drive the car and see how it performs. Spec racing can be fun from time to time, but it doesn't change the reality of how the car performs.
Ordinarily I can do a pretty good job of "reading" pictures. I'm not easily tricked by a glossy paint job, studio lighting, or aggressive photo angles. Therefore I am seldom surprised by what a car looks like in person. But this car has been a little different.
When looking at it head-on, I think the sedan's facade is a bit clunky. The flat surface of the front bumper and smile created by the lights and grill are bulky styling cues. However, the steeply raked windshield may prove an effective counter-point to the front clip. When I look at it in profile, it could be a completely different car. Except for the glass, it's shaped like a Camry.
If Civic doesn't take title of hottest car in segment from Maz3, it'd be a big surprise and disappointment. People historically expect performance, not bargain, from Civic, so Honda can price it in the higher range of the segment.
Next Sentra will be first designed under the Ghosn regime at Nissan, so should be a hell of a car. It might present Civic with biggest styling and performance challenge. Sales wise, Corolla probably will remain the champ, no matter what, knowing how Toyota can churn out the numbers.
I didn't buy my Accord for the HP numbers. Also, the fact remains that the Accord 4 cylinder is competitive with 0-60 times of it's 4 cylinder competitors (even those with more HP) and comes close to a few V6 models.
As was pointed out before, why would GM only choose to have certain models retested. Honda/Toyota were proactive enough to retest all of their cars showing they have less to hide. What exactly is GM hiding?
The front of the sedan looks a little too much like that of the Saturn Ion for my taste, but, like you, I'll wait until I see it in real life to make a final judgment.
The side profile does look much better - and the cabin looks huge. This Civic sedan may be roomy enough to be a full-fledged family car!
GM may not be hiding anything...I would imagine that these tests cost money. Giving GM's recent financial results, it probably isn't spending one penny more than it absolutely has to.
Let's face it, outside of websites such as this, the entire issue rates a big fat "zero" with the general public.
If the public is concerned about any "fudging" right now, it is probably with fuel economy figures. I just paid $33 to fill up my Accord...somehow, with these prices, I'll bet horsepower and 0-60 times seem a little less important.
I avoided buying an SUV because I didn't want $50 fill-ups...at this rate, I may soon be paying something close to that figure anyway with the Accord.
that one of GM's honchos is the founder or a senior member of the SAE yet they haven't retested their cars yet? They say they will only retest significantly changed or new engines going forward.
The article is from last Friday and is based on the first two weeks of August sales. I just think it's interesting that with GM, Ford, and Chrysler all pushing their various employee pricing strategies, they are now the ones losing ground. It would appear even that once-successful promotion has a very short life.
I know that Honda is in the middle of their August clearance sale. That helps explain their boost. I'm guessing Nissan and Toyota each have their own deals on the table. But I doubt very much they come close to the deals offered by the domestics.
it seems to me the article points out that the sales are dropping to to lack of product to sell. it means they already got rid of their '05 inventory, and other manufacturers are still trying to sell it.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Gotta agree there (is that OK, me agreeing with varmint?).
Thing is, you test drive the car, like it, buy it, who cares what it says on paper? Mazda gave Miata owners $500 in accessories, SWEET!
I hope and pray that happens to every single car I ever buy. I would be the luckiest man on earth. Free accessories for life. Please. Thanks.
I mean, c'mon, it still drives the same. Your test drive didn't lie.
They did cheat a little. Exotic oils, disconnect a few accessories. Who cares? The car you test drove didn't have those oils and I bet it had A/C.
It matters from a bench racing stand point, bragging rights, maybe, but unless you bought the car without ever test driving it (foolish to begin with) it should not give you remorse.
over in the ever-hot GM thread, about the '06 DTS, which with the existing powertrain drops 9 hp. There are precious few examples of existing GM powertrains that have been retested under the new guidelines - in fact this DTS thing is the only one I know of, come to think of it - and yet this one went down, just like Toy/Hon power ratings went down. I think it would have proved to be true across the industry if other companies had retested all their models the way T/H did.
Honda dealers in my area are still aggressively pushing '05 Civics, while Accords seem to be running out. I hate this dead part of the year before new product shows up! Seems to me that if the '06 Civic really does hit dealer lots around the Labor Day weekend like I have heard, dealers might have an excess of '05s left to sell. Could truly be bargain time at that point for anyone looking for a Civic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Actually the online article says the horsepower went from 290 to 291.
"The drivetrain is essentially unchanged, with a choice of Northstar V8s (rated at 275 hp in luxury and 291 hp in performance trim, up from 290 hp under the new SAE standards for 2006, though the actual output hasn’t changed) coupled to a four-speed electronically controlled automatic transaxle driving the front wheels."
There are plenty of Civics at local dealers. Buyers could get a bargain on a leftover 2005...but based on what I've seen in the photos of the new Civics at events held by Honda across the country, I think most people would kick themselves for buying a 2005 after seeing the 2006.
We are pretty much running out of 05 inventory as we speak. Our biggest seller, the 4 door Civic LXG (p/w, p/l + keyless, cd, s/roof, abs, cruise, alloys, ) is pretty much sold out (2 left as of tonight). On the lower trim lines we only have the beige ones left which not too many people want, and of course a few of the bare bones DX's in manuals (no a/c) which will be around for a bit.
But otherwise we are selling out faster than we were last year.
Odysseys are almost gone (only a few of the EXL-DVDs, and Tourings remain), Accord V6 sedans are gone, base Accords are gone, base CRVs are gone, and we have less than a handful Elements left over.
And we are one of the largest volume dealers in our area.
yes, I went over this with 62vette, it appears the print and on-line versions do not agree, he thinks the on-line one is more likely to be right.
The model most piled up at my local dealer is CRV. They can't keep the Odysseys in stock. That is saying something, considering the hefty price tag of that sucker.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
We seem to have a lot of leather CRV's left in stock, and 5 speed manual CRV's too. But 5 speed manual models are the ones that are always left over anyways
I'm certain there are some vehicles with low inventories. Chrysler, for example, probably cannot keep enough the 300s, Magnums, and new Charger. Ford is probably having trouble with the Mustang.
But I have doubts that the backlogs they had a few months ago have been wiped out. They've had a backlog of 60-90 days worth of product on several trucks. If there were higher demand across the board, they have an excess of capacity to make up for it.
Given that the report cites dealers as their source, I think some skepticism on that particular point is a healthy thing.
but I believe the article makes reference ONLY to inventories of 2005 models, and that the domestics have switched over to building the '06s. It is credible that stocks of '05s are now running out, especially at GM where they have been pumping out the '06s for some time now.
At the end of June, GM reported only a 41-day supply of vehicles on average, and here we are, more than 41 days later. Considering they were building '06s in July, it kinda adds up.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's pretty commendable to see Honda doing as well as they are without resorting to the "fire sale" prices of the domestics. Even Toyota is advertising up to $2000 cash back on certain models as well as Nissan, Subaru and Mazda. It's nice to see them sell on their own merits rather than "deal of the week" to blow out inventory... That kind of respect and reputation is quite imprssive to say the least. I think the trend should continue when the new Civic comes out IMO. Especially the coupe and future CRX.
I would like to suggest to Honda that the long-in-the-tooth Insight should be replaced with a Civic Hybrid Coupe. I think it would be a popular model. And also a Hybrid powertrain to go with the 4-cyl on the Accord, not just the V6...
Comments
Considering the latest fad of 20-24" rims on trucks, there seems to be a lot less concern about spare tire compatibility. What size spare is recommended when you have 24" rims on your blingmoblie?
I still say, at the very least, make a fullsize spare part of the tow package. You can always argue that the customer "should have known better," but the fact of the matter is—they often don't. I believe it's Honda's responsibilty to provide the best equipment they can for towing. Asking to include a fullsize spare tire as being part of the tow package is not at all unreasonaible.
Bob
BTW, speaking of blingmobiles, I saw a Ridge today - black - with the 20+ inch rims in shiny chrome, cruising down the boulevard. Now THERE was a guy (a young guy, BTW) that had NO idea what kind of spare was in his trunk! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But, the recent spy shots of the interior of the new Civic have me worried. maybe it will look better in person, but that dash olloks kinda funky. I actually like the euro one better I think!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Have there been any more recent shots of the Civic interior? The only pics I have seen show the interior with a big piece of fabric covering the dash.
Also, there were some pics of the uncovered dash on the other site that is fond of engine technology. I don't think they were posted here, but check the 2006 Civic thread anyway.
Still need to see it in person.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Overall, I like the Civic's interior. Not sure about that steering wheel though. Maybe it's a preproduction model. It really does remind me of the 90-93 Integra.
I'm guessing that the new Civic will come out in early September? And the facelifted Accord as well?
Strange thing is that if any Japanese automaker was expected to be caught, it would be Nissan, who's been using power to sell more than any. For now, Nissan is cleared.
Question is: what will Honda and Toyota do for the buyers, or should do? Remember Mazda extended the warranties for RX8 owners.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0508/17/A01-283759.htm
Honda and Toyota took advantage of the freedoms/loopholes in the old standards, but technically they were following them. So they don't have to do anything for customers, who could theoretically test their engines and achieve the same rating. (I think the test let you control air temperature and how fast the parasitic accessories were running.)
I think all cars should be tested at the wheels; a 10hp difference is pointless when you don't know what the drivetrain losses are.
Mazda's (and Hyundai's) reported hp figures were actually wrong during that whole PR mess they both suffered a couple of years back - un-duplicatable (is that a word?!) by independent testing facilities. That was not the case with Toy/Hon.
However, it is clear that Toy/Hon were using all the little advantages that the previous testing procedures allowed, since among the major manufacturers they are the only ones where most models' hp is going down. But I DID hear that TSX is going UP, to 205 hp.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Then why did the rest of the auto industry get it right on their hp ratings and not Honda/Toyota? The bottom line is that Honda and Toyota over-inflated claims of their engines horsepower, just like Mazda had done with RX8, Ford with one of it's mustangs a few yrs back, Hyundai with Sonata etc. Those company's either extended the warranties or gave some $$ back, which is what Toyota-Honda should do. If you paid for a car with 210hp and it was really only 190hp, wouldn't you want some kind of corrective action? Have to disagree with you on Honda/Toyota NOT having to do anything for customers.
In the same new SAE tests, the American cars stayed the same or actually have more hp now. Caddy XLR gained 29hp under new test. Z06 gained 5hp.
I would want some $$ back on my car from the mfg if that was the case. They know HP sells in today's market even with higher gas prices. One of a vehicles major selling points is it's HP rating. You will see some CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS over this. False advertising.
NOTE, if GM or Ford had done this it would be Breaking News and make the major headlines. I noticed how the press so far has kept it relatively quiet with Honda-Toyota.
This is obviously a very personal issue for you, so I won't dwell too much on it, but this is not the same thing at all as the Mazda and Hyundai issues of past years, which were in fact false advertising, yes. The SAE testing procedures were new for '06, and for '06 Honda is advertising all its models that have been retested with the new lower hp figures. Toyota is doing the same. And didn't the Caddy STS drop in hp too? There were some GM models that did so, this is not even remotely exclusive to Honda and Toyota by any stretch of the imagination. It was just more widespread at Toy/Hon.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Acura has been selling HP for a long time, since the old TLS. Some wondered why Acuras couldn't beat the less powerful Infinitis. We all thought it came down to RWD/FWD thing. Now we know there's another factor.
It's a shame either way. I would be annoyed about it. Something you don't expect from Toyota-Honda.
Anyway, done with that. I think it is commendable that Honda retested all its models (going beyond the mandate of the new rules), as did Toyota, while GM/Ford/Nissan/Chrysler did not. So we will never know what many existing models from those manufacturers would have tested at under the new regulations.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Where did you get that info from?
But since ALL honda cars are Front Wheel Drive, they do put a higher % of the hp to the drive wheels, less LOSS in a FWD setup as opposed to more loss in a RWD set up, like Infiniti.
Until Honda comes out with a RWD sedan or car you won't see me buying one.
The Domestics followed the existing rules too and they came up with the same or greater hp ratings after going from the old and new rules. They tested what they had to under the new mandates. Admit it, Toyota-Honda dropped the ball somewhere. I would not be a happy camper if I found out I didn't get the HP that was advertised to me. Who knows if they won't do it again either? Maybe as good faith they could extend the warranty on the cars effected to 4yr 50k. They now have to do damage control on this to their customers. To each their own, we would all handle it differently. Enough said.
Great, but there are others out there like myself who will. No reason to fault those who don't mind it. For the $$$ I'd being buying TL's all day before I'd even look at a 300C or Craptacular Touring Sedan. RWD is not a deal breaker here.
That said, nobody is going to win any law suits against them. What they did was legal.
For now, these new standard are optional. Honda and Toyota have come forward and begun publishing figures under the new guidelines for 2006. Even though they are not required to do so.
Ford, GM, Nissan, and others are opting out of the new standards for the time being. So, with the exception of those engines which THEY CHOSE to have retested, we will never know if they also over-rated their engines in a similar manner. They are only posting figures under the new SAE standards for engines which are redesigned. In other words, giving them time to boost HP so that it covers the loss they might've experienced
With respect to Honda and Acura vehicles, the TSX, Accord V6 and I4 have gained HP because the engines were tweaked for higher output this year. The gains are not the result of the new standards. Had they reported HP under the old standards, we probably would have seen gains of about 10HP over the total output from the old engines. Instead we are only seeing gains of 3-4 HP.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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As long as the manufacturers have leeway in the testing, the corporate culture is going to affect the results.
I remember critics were unanimous in condemning that regulation, saying we're doomed to having ugly cars. But new Civic seems the best looking in its long history. The stylists seem to figure a way to use that regulation to their advantage.
"Japanese/German companies ensure that all of their production line meets the rated horsepower whereas GM/Ford ensure that some engines would meet the rated horsepower (with a large tolerance for variable HP outputs among the total engine production)."
lemmer, that sounds like mad-cow testing. The Japanese test every single cow, the Europeans test a very large percentage. We test a very small percentage, it's getting better though, our percentage was ridiculously small.
As for the look of the Civic, I love the new coupe. Not so wild about the sedan. It looks a bit chunky. There are some things I do like about it, but I'm on the fence.
a related issue is the the new 'stang 'might' be a bit underrated for hp. there are aftermarket vendors claiming guaranteed hp gains. why do you(not varm) think that is?
It definitely looks more "upscale." It will be interesting to see what Honda charges for it, and how it stacks up against the Cobalt and Focus. Depending on the price, it could give those two real trouble.
That's not the same thing as we're seeing with the new SAE standards. The Toyotas and Hondas in question DO perform up to spec according to the old standards.
Frankly, whenever prior Ford/Mazda mistakes are mentioned, it's usually an import fan throwing mud to cover embarrassment about their favorite cars. The issues involved in those fiascoes are completely different.
For my part, I think performance testing is about the only way to truly gauge what's going on under the hood. BMWs have long been thought under-rated. I wouldn't doubt that the Mustang is too. Oddly enough, so have many Hondas.
For example... according the new SAE standards, the TSX should have been cranking out less than the published 200 hp and 166 ft-lbs at the flywheel. Yet, several dyno tests done on stock cars suggested that the engine was under-rated. Even with the drivetrain sapping some of the power, it was producing 170 whp (a loss of 15%) and 152 ft-lbs (only 9%). Given that typical drivetrain losses are about 15%, the claim of 200 hp seems dead accurate. Meanwhile, the published claim of 166 ft-lbs seemed too low. TOV even got 179 whp and 158 from a dyno.
Bottom line... even though we know Acura was "cheating" with the old SAE standards, that particular car seems to back up the old claims. And that has been true with many other cars.
So, for my money, I'll drive the car and see how it performs. Spec racing can be fun from time to time, but it doesn't change the reality of how the car performs.
When looking at it head-on, I think the sedan's facade is a bit clunky. The flat surface of the front bumper and smile created by the lights and grill are bulky styling cues. However, the steeply raked windshield may prove an effective counter-point to the front clip. When I look at it in profile, it could be a completely different car. Except for the glass, it's shaped like a Camry.
Next Sentra will be first designed under the Ghosn regime at Nissan, so should be a hell of a car. It might present Civic with biggest styling and performance challenge. Sales wise, Corolla probably will remain the champ, no matter what, knowing how Toyota can churn out the numbers.
As was pointed out before, why would GM only choose to have certain models retested. Honda/Toyota were proactive enough to retest all of their cars showing they have less to hide. What exactly is GM hiding?
The side profile does look much better - and the cabin looks huge. This Civic sedan may be roomy enough to be a full-fledged family car!
Let's face it, outside of websites such as this, the entire issue rates a big fat "zero" with the general public.
If the public is concerned about any "fudging" right now, it is probably with fuel economy figures. I just paid $33 to fill up my Accord...somehow, with these prices, I'll bet horsepower and 0-60 times seem a little less important.
I avoided buying an SUV because I didn't want $50 fill-ups...at this rate, I may soon be paying something close to that figure anyway with the Accord.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0508/22/C01-285992.htm
The article is from last Friday and is based on the first two weeks of August sales. I just think it's interesting that with GM, Ford, and Chrysler all pushing their various employee pricing strategies, they are now the ones losing ground. It would appear even that once-successful promotion has a very short life.
I know that Honda is in the middle of their August clearance sale. That helps explain their boost. I'm guessing Nissan and Toyota each have their own deals on the table. But I doubt very much they come close to the deals offered by the domestics.
Gotta agree there (is that OK, me agreeing with varmint?).
Thing is, you test drive the car, like it, buy it, who cares what it says on paper? Mazda gave Miata owners $500 in accessories, SWEET!
I hope and pray that happens to every single car I ever buy. I would be the luckiest man on earth. Free accessories for life. Please. Thanks.
I mean, c'mon, it still drives the same. Your test drive didn't lie.
They did cheat a little. Exotic oils, disconnect a few accessories. Who cares? The car you test drove didn't have those oils and I bet it had A/C.
It matters from a bench racing stand point, bragging rights, maybe, but unless you bought the car without ever test driving it (foolish to begin with) it should not give you remorse.
-juice
Honda dealers in my area are still aggressively pushing '05 Civics, while Accords seem to be running out. I hate this dead part of the year before new product shows up! Seems to me that if the '06 Civic really does hit dealer lots around the Labor Day weekend like I have heard, dealers might have an excess of '05s left to sell. Could truly be bargain time at that point for anyone looking for a Civic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"The drivetrain is essentially unchanged, with a choice of Northstar V8s (rated at 275 hp in luxury and 291 hp in performance trim, up from 290 hp under the new SAE standards for 2006, though the actual output hasn’t changed) coupled to a four-speed electronically controlled automatic transaxle driving the front wheels."
Online link:
http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=102988
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But otherwise we are selling out faster than we were last year.
Odysseys are almost gone (only a few of the EXL-DVDs, and Tourings remain), Accord V6 sedans are gone, base Accords are gone, base CRVs are gone, and we have less than a handful Elements left over.
And we are one of the largest volume dealers in our area.
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
The model most piled up at my local dealer is CRV. They can't keep the Odysseys in stock. That is saying something, considering the hefty price tag of that sucker.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX
But I have doubts that the backlogs they had a few months ago have been wiped out. They've had a backlog of 60-90 days worth of product on several trucks. If there were higher demand across the board, they have an excess of capacity to make up for it.
Given that the report cites dealers as their source, I think some skepticism on that particular point is a healthy thing.
At the end of June, GM reported only a 41-day supply of vehicles on average, and here we are, more than 41 days later. Considering they were building '06s in July, it kinda adds up.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I would like to suggest to Honda that the long-in-the-tooth Insight should be replaced with a Civic Hybrid Coupe. I think it would be a popular model. And also a Hybrid powertrain to go with the 4-cyl on the Accord, not just the V6...
And a 400hp V8
For my S2000... :P