Has Honda's run - run out?

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  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "The sedan's front bumper lacks these intakes, which gives it a bulky look, and also emphasizes the forward slant of the bumper. The result is a cross between a Saturn Ion and the prow of a locomotive."

    True. The intakes on the Coupe do reduce the visual mass of the front bumper. But I kinda like the forward slant of the Sedan's chin. It's unique.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    When they added all that safety equipment the bean counters probably felt they had to delete something else to keep prices near the old levels.

    To be honest I think stripped models like the DX don't belong in the lineup at all, it cheapens Honda's image too much. I would drop it, perhaps with the Fit arrives, that would make sense because the Fit could occupy that price slot.

    Let me see the sedan in person, you guys sound pretty persuasive, maybe I'll like it more. LOL

    Good pics, I guess what I don't like is that wide chrome strip on the sedan's grille, I hate chrome in general.

    The coupe's thin strip looks sharper. I also prefer how the bumper merges with the grille on the coupe, especially how the lights have that kink towards the middle. It gives it just a little more character, just enough not to be boring.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Funny that the auto is more efficient...

    Plus the good news is all models get the 140hp engine, that's a huge step up for the DX and LX.

    Timing is pretty good with current gas prices. If my wife wanted one, honestly, at this point I'd encourage her. It's painful to see these prices. :sick:

    Hopefully it will mean fewer behemoths on the roads, maybe less traffic in general.

    -juice
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I am with you on that one: the DX does not belong in the line-up. Maybe they are just planning it to be a low-price "stopgap" until the Fit arrives, and will cancel it after the first year. I hope so. No radio? Geez, even the cheapest pick-ups have radios these days, I thought the days of no radio were gone.

    I don't understand how they could let the mileage for the stick shift go DOWN, even though I applaud the 40 mpg rating for the auto. I am reminded of my '02 Celica though, which had the same power and torque, weighed 200 pounds less than this Civic, and still did worse for mileage. So technology IS moving forward...

    I am curious to see what the new Toyota Yaris (Echo replacement) will finally be like when it arrives in the spring. Honda and Toyota are setting up to go head to head on a third model next year: Yaris vs Fit. *rubs hands together in anticipation*

    It is possible that what they have done with the '06 Civic DX bodes ill for what corners they will cut in the Fit. Of course, Yaris will be coming from the company that makes everything optional, not standard, on less expensive models, so maybe they will match up in spec.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,725
    The car looks like there's no front end. The front wheel is back under the windshield and there's no car in front of the wheel. It has a humongous windshield compared to the car's size. I'll have to see one in person.

    The Saturn is better proportioned in the front.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    I really LIKE the front-end on that new Civic!! IMO, that's how a car SHOULD look! I'm glad they're bucking the trend of these oversized, goofy headlights and odd-fitting grilles that just don't line up. Gives it a really mean, aggressive stance. In profile, the coupe reminds me just a bit of the Acura RL, before they gave it the more squared-off rump.

    I had been thinking about checking out an Accord coupe the next time I get a new(er) car, but with the way gas prices are going, and presuming I can fit comfortably in one, I might check out the Civic!

    FWIW, I think the current Civic coupe is a good looking car. I only wish I fit better in it.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It's a 5 speed auto, I think even on the DX!

    A very efficient one.

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    actually I don't think the Ion looks that bad, now that they've cleaned up the front. And while I just drooled over the Civic coupe, now that I see the sedan, it just doesn't wow me as much. Roofline makes me think a bit of a Corolla, and up front it seems to have a little Volvo in the fenders, blending in with that Honda grille that has a bit of a Pontiac-ish central theme going on. Still, not a bad looking little car. I guess it's just that little 4-doors don't wow me.

    Funny too, how now that Chrysler is abandoning Cab Forward, Honda seems to be picking it up!
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,725
    >Cab Forward

    I'd forgotten that term. That's the look with foreshortening of the whole front end!

    >Roofline makes me think a bit of a Corolla

    It has a Corolla look--sort of like they emulated the Beetle's circle appearance for the roof to give a look of strength.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Funny, but the back of the sedan reminds me a bit of the Mazda3. Not the styling, but the proportions are similar. The rear class flows into the decklid quite far aft on the vehicle. And the decklid itself is very short.

    That's actually something I hated about the Mazda3. The extremely short decklid made the trunk opening a pain to use. You can't drop things down into the trunk. You have to slide them in from behind.

    http://i.tnpv.us/pv/2005/08/29/HON2005082946083_pv.jpg

    http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2005/Mazda/100463- 343/032329-E.jpg
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    in the center to connect the taillights, it would also look a wee bit Intrepid-ish in the back. Truthfully, I think the sedan would look better if they just took the lights out of the decklid completely. And if they'd blend the bottom of the decklid in with the rear bumper fascia. That's a common problem that cars these days have...that big gap at the bottom of the decklid just makes the car look slapped-together.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    the sedan would look better if they just took the lights out of the decklid completely

    Bingo, that's one thing I like better about the coupe.

    The C-pillar on the sedan is just kinda blah, the Mazda3's has a little kink it in to break up the monotony.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I thought the tail lights looked a bit like a reversal of the Acura EL. It's like they swapped the left and right assemblies and removed the white reverse lens.

    http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/8/web/848000-848999/848134_5_full.jpg

    Juice - The thing I prefer about the Mazda3 is that the bumper wraps around the sides. The Civic's doesn't.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Meh, don't care for those either.

    In fact both remind me of the G35 sedan, another sedan with a too-busy trunk.

    Clean it up like the coupe, which looks sleek and, dare I say, sexy?

    -juice
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    about the rump of that EL that actually makes me think of a Grand Marquis! Or, if they got rid of the part that slants upward and just left the horizontal strip on either side of the license plate, it would make a nifty Impala!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    First one is neat, very creative. Nice way to show off the hybrid.

    Second one is like a bad acid trip. Of course how would I know, I've never tried acid. :D

    Third one is OK, reminds me a little of the Inifinit Q ads with the trees and no cars in sight, until about half way, then you see the car in some backgrounds.

    -juice
  • themoon77themoon77 Member Posts: 102
    I never thought it looked good, especially considering in Chrysler Corp's LX series sedans all the extra space was on top of the dashboard. This new Civic coupe somehow reminds me of the mid to late 90s Saturn SC cars and in some ways, the first(with the steeply raked rear end) Pontiac Fiero. God forbid, if I think about it long enough, I start seeing a Toyota Paseo with its all-the-weight-is-in-the-front look. No opinion on the Sedan yet. Yes, the front end of the coupe is definitely sportier, for good reason. But the sides look extremely tall and featureless like Toyota's Echo, Camry, and Avalon. I will have to see these cars in person for sure.

    The wipers do look interesting. Are the blades 3 feet long? It looks like both wipers rest in the center just like Chryslers newer minivans.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That looks goofy in operation. I guess it clears a higher percentage of glass, but I never liked those.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    in the US

    And sales in Canada perked up quite a bit. They squeeked past Ford.
  • rockshocka1rockshocka1 Member Posts: 310
    Was there a goal for # of units sold for the RL, like the 50K mark targeted for the Ridge?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    And I would not bet against September doing just as well...

    So much for the naysayers, Ridgeline sales are on target.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    The Acura RL was targeted for about 20,000 units the first year. At the current rate, they should sell about 17,000. That's about 17% off target. Monthly sales have been pretty steady.

    The Honda RL (Ridgeline) was targeted for about 50,000 units in the first year. If sales continue to average ~3,700 per month, they should sell about 45,000.

    But I think they'll do slightly better than that. Sales picked up when Honda began producing the base models (initial allotments were for the loaded vehicles only). And dealers have stopped gouging. This was the first month sales passed the 4K mark (4,308 units). If they continue at August's rate, they will end a 12 month cycle with 48,322 units sold - just shy of the mark.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I have yet to see one; on the road, or on the dealer's lot. I think they exist, or the brochure is wrong in listing them.

    Bob
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,908
    if you set the target low enough('ridges), you are going to make it. they are not selling in my neighborhood.
    the 'si is another 'struck out swinging'. just plain redo of the saturn coupe. ok, they added a rear wing. interior is better too. i do like the what i have seen of the sedan, though. maybe it's my age.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Ridgeline struck out swinging? I don't think so...

    Honda, like any company, sets sales targets with the expectation of making some money at the goals they set. So one can then assume, if they are meeting their sales goals, or are close to them, that they are making money.

    Bob
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    to see Americans and corporations pulling together. We should focus on how to solve the problem not point fingers at the President because he's an easy target.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I've seen a few on dealer lots, but can't say I've seen them on the road. Of course, I'm rarely looking to see just which model it is.

    I think Honda pulled a Pacific with this one. They started out with too much content and the truck earned a reputation for being expensive. It'll take a while (and some discounting) to get sales where they belong.
  • geo9geo9 Member Posts: 735
    Reports a paltry 18,xxx units sold for 05
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Can't say I blame them for that strategy, people don't want the stripped base models of the Pilot and Odyssey.

    In fact, when I look at no-haggle dealerships, the margins on the loaded-up models are actually higher, implying that demand is greater and people are more willing to pay a markup for those.

    I think I've only seen 2 Pilots LXs in my life. Look for the steelies. They are extremely rare around here.

    Of course people could be changing the rims on them.

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    The Ridgeline went on sale in March. The 18K you're looking at is not a full YTD figure.

    If they continue at their current sales pace, they'll come very close to their initial goal. If they continue at the average rate since March, they'll come within 5K units of their goal.

    varmint, "Has Honda's run - run out?" #5659, 2 Sep 2005 5:24 pm
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Yep. Plus it doesn't include August sales figures either, which are an additional 4,304 units sold. So including August, YTD sales stand at 22,474 as of 8/31/05.

    Bob
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "Can't say I blame them for that strategy, people don't want the stripped base models of the Pilot and Odyssey."

    Yeah, but the markets for the Ody and Pilot are more family-oriented. The truck market is oriented more toward fleet sales and individuals.

    Vehicles like the 1999 Ody, the Highlander, and a few others set the expectation for higher prices in their segments. The current buyers expect that kind of pricing because they get what they are paying for. The same is true for the Ridgeline (it's a relative bargain for all the stuff you get), but the market hasn't reached the point where they expect all that extra stuff. It'll take time.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    New ground for Honda, so not surprising that they would not forecast demand as accurately as they usually do.

    Subaru missed with early Baja forecasts, and a whole lot worse. They thought compact pickup buyers wanted standard leather and moonroof with a tiny bed and interior. They've sold about 6 of them. ;)

    -juice
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    True, this is new ground for Honda. But I think it was just as much the dealers who blew the launch as it was Honda. The truck is priced competitively. The dealers needed to understand they couldn't push MSRP pricing and load up the models with extra doodads.

    I think Honda was smart to target the (smaller) portion of the market looking for a recreational truck. It is a growing segment and one that matches Honda's strengths. But they may either be ahead of the curve - in the next few years, Honda will be the company that got in on the ground floor - or the curve has plateau'd and Honda has over-estimated the potential for growth.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The dealers needed to understand they couldn't push MSRP pricing and load up the models with extra doodads

    Boy is that ever true! The local Honda dealer had a Ridgeline on the showroom floor, loaded with just about every dealer-installed option possible. It stickered at over $43K! Is this dealer nuts, or what? Think that $43K might have scared off a few customers?

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I immediately thought "Lincoln Blackwood".

    -juice
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Greed can blind even the smartest people. Or, perhaps that one was done on purpose so when you go on the lot, paying "only" $35K looks like a best bargain.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,741
    I always thought (hoped?) that the point of the showroom model with every aftermarket piece on it wasn't that they expected to sell it for that price. Rather, it showed off all the stuff that you could buy, so that they could up sell some if it to buyers.

    Than again, I could be wrong (first time for everything)!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Yeah, that's what the dealer and manufacturer thinks. The customer, upon seeing the sticker, often has a different reaction. When I saw the Ridgeline in question, and pointed out the price to the salesman, he got all defensive, and babbled on about that fact—it was there to show what's available in terms of options. Guess what, all I saw was $43K, and I bet I wasn't alone.

    Bob
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,908
    i think honda is going to drop out of the truck market in another couple of years. the prelude has a following, but not enough to have kept it around. does not mean it was a bad car. at least the front end styling is coming back as a ford fusion. :)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I doubt it. Many naysayers said the same thing when Honda debuted the small first-generation Odyssey. Now look at that vehicle; it's the class-leading minivan on the market. Honda will get the formula right in short order. Count on it.

    Bob
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    ...Honda and Toyota are more likely to stick with a vehicle, and refine what is right and correct what is wrong, even if it isn't initially a success. GM and Ford, on the other hand, are too quick to give up if the sales and profits aren't there immediately. They need to take a more long-range view of the market.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the '06 Accord has arrived - went to look at it tonight - I like the taillights a lot more than the previous ones, even if they are a little generic (Ford 500, Camry, LaCrosse, the new Impala, what else do they look like?). The PR says the front end has changed, but I can't see it.

    The SE splits the difference between the former LX and EX, with everything but the moonroof from the old EX, for $22,xxx sticker. Is that quite a bit? I think it might be in the context of Camry/Altima (and maybe Fusion? but then, that will be smaller). The VP, which looks tacky with those 15" rims with cheap wheel covers, runs $19,5. Quite a bit, but then all the safety equipment is standard. Power is up to 166 hp.

    It appears that the revised steering and suspension settings for the Accord V-6 will follow over to the '06 TL as well, judging from the article linked above. I wonder if the difference is noticeable to the average Joe...

    My dealer has a lot of Elements just sitting around, some for several months now, and I noticed that two sitting side by side (4WD EXs with stick shifts, what a miracle) had different prices. It appears Honda has raised the price some $800 fairly recently? That is a hefty jump, on a $21K sticker.

    It is very disappointing that the Accord manual gets 26/34 and the exact same engine and 5-speed manual only gets 21/24 in a 2WD Element. What gives? Yes, the Element has a higher profile and a couple hundred more pounds on it, but that is 20-30% lower.

    I was looking at a 4WD Tacoma XtraCab tonight - 4-cyl stick shift - rated 19/23, weighing a few hundred pounds more and having more torque and a full-on truck-type 4WD system with a 4LO transfer case. Makes me wonder. Honda could pull in some more sales in these times of high gas prices if it could boost those numbers on the Element (and CRV) some.

    OK, enough rambling from me! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Gas mileage on big bricks with small 4 cylinder engines is so much lower also due to gearing - when engine is "too small" (using American standards of course) for the vehicle size, shape and expected performance, the only way to offset this is to get gear ratios such that it stays in its powerband even when cruising (otherwise wind forces and general drag will overcome the engine power). The effect is immediate. The same type of numbers would show up when the owner starts "racing" his/her supposedly fuel efficient Accord. Take also S2000 - wonderful EPA numbers but ask anybody who actually drives that car the way it was "designed" to drive - not even close...

    If anywhere, these are cars (i.e. CRV, Element, not S2000), where diesel engines would make a lot of sense, even in the US, as long as no strip racer is expected.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,102
    for the Element getting worse economy is that, as of the 2005MY at least, it was still using a 4-speed automatic, whereas the CR-V and Accord use a 5-speed automatic. In fact, the CR-V, with 2wd and the 2.4/5-speed auto, is rated at 23/29!
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    We took a glance at a burgundy 06 Accord yesterday. Personally, I like the styling of my 04 better. At least in the color that we saw. The front end has two cutouts at the bottom of the bumper for fog lights. On my 04 the dealer actually has to cut the bumper to install the fog lights. The VP may seem expensive but it has a lot more equipment than in past years. All of the safety items (side airbags, side curtains, ABS), cruise control, AC, etc. And you should be able to get one for closer to $17,000 which competes nicely with the deals on base Camrys and Altimas right now.

    On the Element ... what colors were the 4WD EX 5-speeds you saw? Gee still has a soft spot for the Elements and occasionally talks about buying one.

    The Element is probably geared differently than the Accord. The boxy shape, gearing, and heft probably account for the MPG difference.
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