Has Honda's run - run out?

ateixeira

The Speed3's engine is de-tuned, so is the CX7's.

I wonder how these turbos will mate up to the automatics that most of 'em get now.

-juice

heel2toe

If I recall, the power loss was the ECU retarding things due to not having adequate Octane (the 93'ish stuff is evidently more consistent in Japan and Europe). There has been an update already.

heel2toe

As of yesterday, the Mazda website has 250 hp/280 ft-lbs for the Speed3.

The torque number surprised me...I had heard the same thing about detunement.

ateixeira

That's pretty high strung for a smallish 2.3l of displacement.

Acura's is a smidge bigger, 2.4l, and Subaru uses a 2.5l.

It's real satisfying to feel the boost in these, but I wonder how well it mates up to a slushbox...

-juice

gee35coupe

Is just the way it was designed. That's the way the curve goes. Turbos are either high RPM screamers or low RPM grunters. It depends on the application. That's why they make variable nozzles for them. To try to extend the "sweet spot".

bumpy

That's pretty high strung for a smallish 2.3l of displacement.

Not really. S15 Silvias were pulling proportionally similar numbers in their day. The heat soak problem in the Speed6 is thanks to Mazda's inexplicable use of a top-mount intercooler (relearning a lesson taught in the '80s).

rockylee

Ya'll are making very interesting points on turbo's and the use in high reving engines like Honda's line. So a turbo can be either set up for low-end or high-end grunt. Interesting and educational. The Twin-Charger does both right ?

Rocky

gee35coupe

About durability in a twin-charger setup. That just sounds like a lot of complexity.

nippononly

seems to think they have the twin-charger set-up ready to go - isn't it slated for actual production cars as soon as next year?

Sounds good - 1.4L engine, with the fuel economy that would hopefully go with such a small engine, with an S/C for the low rpm, and a turbo that is the sole boost above 3700 rpm.

qbrozen

The twin charger idea has been done before. But, as always, someone has built a better mousetrap.

stickguy

is available in Europe I believe already. Does seem to give good results though (nice combo of power, response and MPG)

stickguy

back on target..

Happened to do some shopping today for "entry level luxury" or whatever the term du jour is. Looked at (in showroom, no drives) an M35x, RL and a GS300 (and for the heck of it, a Caddy STS). all the cars MSRP was within a paycheck of 50K IIRC.

Anyway, overall the Acura dealership just gave the worst impression, and the cars really did seem like loaded up Hondas. Definitely a more budget feel, except when looking at the stickers.

I know, it's the car that counts, but the whole atmosphere/experience is still important when you are trying to get people to part with 50K for a car/SUV.

Oh, and the RL didn't exude the same luxury/expensive feel as the Infiniti and Lexus. No way I would pay more for an RL than an M.

I just think Acura is going to struggle to compete in the higher end (50K/RL) arena. They are more suited for the TSX/TL market (say 25-35K range), which will include the RDX, and the MDX if they don't try to go too upmarket with it.

If they do want to really make a run at the RL market, they need a legit platform to work with, not what (to me, and probably most buyers) is essentially a streched and gussied up Accord platform. Actually, the RL did remind me quite a bit of my Accord!

nippononly

stretch the Accord to produce the RL? The feel when you sit in the back is that there is less room than the Accord.

stickguy

not sure, but I agree that it does not feel any roomier than my Accord, which IMO has a surprisingly large back seat. Probably helps that it sits pretty tall/upright. Swoopy styling isn't good for interior room (proven well by the GS, which was very cramped).

carlisimo

The RL's seats are hugely thick. I bet you lose a lot of interior room because of that.

It does seem small for the vehicle's mission. The 5-series does too, but it makes up for it dynamically. The RL probably could have as well, with its SH-AWD, but it sounds like their luxification made it boring.

autoboy16

:mad: Isn't that what i said (majority) in post 7442? How honda doesn't need 4midsize sedans( tl tsx rl accord) and how that should be fixed?

carlisimo

Yes, I totally agree!

But there's a problem. The RL is designed for markets that don't have a TL. The TSX is designed for markets without our Accords. The TL was originally designed for a market without TSXs.

Honda can't sort out its mess until it globalizes its car lines.

stickguy

problem is, they aren't really 4 mid size cars, although they are all sort of the same size. Follow that logic?

They do cover different catagories, same as a 3 and 5 series BMW aren't that much different in size but play in different arenas.

And, Honda is seperate from Acura, so they should have a car of their own.

Heck, Lexus has 3 sedans that are about as close in size as Acura (IS, ES, GS), but at least they aren't all on the same basic platform!

For Honda, if the RL was made bigger, it would differentiate better from the TL. The TL and TSX already seem to be soemwhat unique, but I bet the TL steals some sales from the TSX.

Wonder if they can slide that new Turbo engine into a TSX? THat would be sweat, and eliminate the problem of not enough torque, without making it front heavy like the TL (by adding a V6)

nippononly

the IS is pretty different in size from the ES, just as I would say the TSX is noticeably smaller than the North American Accord triplets (RL, TL, and Accord itself).

Mainly you notice the difference in elbow room, and foot/legroom in the back seat. In both manufacturers' cases.

carlisimo

Fair enough on the size thing.

But you can't turbo the TSX; then the Acuras would be too similar in price! (Not to mention the TSX gets designed as the European and Japanese Accord, which just isn't going to get a turbo. The TL's a better candidate for performance versions, from a purely marketing standpoint.)

rockylee

I would take the Acura RL and make it the size of a Mercedes S-Class in size. Add the new Acura NSX V-10 as the engine. RL Problems solved.

The TL needs to grow to about the the Current RL's size and the TSX can reamin about the same so they have a Small, Medium, Large sizes. I think my idea is a gooden, but what do I know.

Rocky

varmint

"Wonder if they can slide that new Turbo engine into a TSX?"

Google "Sports 4 concept"

qbrozen

it does not feel any roomier than my Accord, which IMO has a surprisingly large back seat.

The Accord's backseat IS very large. One of my arguments for trading my Lincoln LS in on the Accord is that it has 3 inches more backseat leg room (which translates into the rear-facing baby seat fitting better back there). It still amazes me that its bigger than a LINCOLN!

rockylee

WOW, that's amazing...

Rocky

ateixeira

The Speed6 makes well over 100 hp/liter, to me that's high strung. That's my line in the sand, actually.

VW does already sell the twincharger in Europe, but I'd be concerned about cost and complexity.

Back to Honda, perhaps one issue with overlap is that the TSX, TL, and Accord are all FWD. Lexus has better differentiation, since the IS is RWD and the ES is tuned very soft plus FWD, there's less overlap in their lineup.

But Toyota is a lot bigger and has more resources, so that should not be a surprise.

-juice

gee35coupe

The FWD only thing was nice when for a while. But it's starting to get a bit old. And that's coming from someone who owns three of them.

ateixeira

TSX should go RWD. The TL could get SH-AWD, even optional.

Then you'd have no overlap. The TSX would be RWD, small and sporty. They could even move it up in price.

The Accord would stay in the mainstream.

The TL, which already does well, would have AWD to further set it apart.

I realize that makes the RL more redundant, not less, but the volume is so small anyway it hardly matters.

-juice

gee35coupe

Sounds like a plan. Lets write Honda and tell em'.

carguy58

"Then......"

No, the 6 with the sport package sold for MSRP for a little while not the base model 6 w/o the sports package.

autoboy16

You forgot to mention that honda should slide a v8 or some turbo diesel into the RL to put it directly with the The Audi A6/8, Mercedes E/S class, Bmw 5/7 series, the infiniti Q/M 45 and the lexus Gs/Ls. The v8 or turbo diesel would help it get there. The I said it should be bigger and more powerful because the Tl and Rl seem to compete against the same vehicles.

The tl is more for the Es350, G35, Maxima, and Passat but lags behind all in hp. thats why i was saying it needs the Rls v6 with the 290-300 hp. Combine that with SH-AWD and you get less torque steer, better distributed power and a foul weather vehicle.

The tsx is more suited for the A4 2.0T, Is 250 and 325i but should be turbocharged for the A4 3.2, Is350 and 330i. RWD is a good solution but not whit its current 4cyl and already tight dementions.

The accord is mainstream and does well against the Camry and others but needs to be redesigned because its starting to fall behind its competitors and is being run down by others like the Sonata and Mazda6. It needs the 3.3 from the Tl to get the 255-265hp to be with the Camry and closer to the passat.

Now lets E-mail Honda

carguy58

"TSX should go RWD. The TL could get SH-AWD, even optional."

The TSx should go RWD? Acura's cuatomers are mostly in the Northeast so I don;t think Acura's core customer would like to see the TSX go RWD.

rockylee

I'll sign it !

Rocky

rockylee

How bout they all go SH-AWD to fix all the problems. :P

Rocky

carguy58

"The tsx is more suited for the A4 2.0T, Is 250 and 325i but should be turbocharged for the A4 3.2, Is350 and 330i. RWD is a good solution but not whit its current 4cyl and already tight dementions."

I think the TSX should have a standard 6 cyl engine. I think a 4cyl at its a current price is a little off-beat in my opinion.

"The accord is mainstream and does well against the Camry and others but needs to be redesigned because its starting to fall behind its competitors and is being run down by others like the Sonata and Mazda6. It needs the 3.3 from the Tl to get the 255-265hp to be with the Camry and closer to the passat."

Your right the Accord is being run down by other competitors but Mazda and Hyundai need to load up on the incentives to get 6's and Sonata's off their lots where as Honda doesn't rely on too many incentives to push Accord off their lots. I'm sure a swoppy re-style would help some of the hate that Honda fans like me feel towards towards the Accord. Lets face it... much has been docucumented about Honda fans not liking this current generation of Accord styling.

nippononly

I'm surprised - what source said that Acura's customers are mostly in the Northeast? Acuras are very popular here in California, and I know they are a common sight in the Southwest.

And the TSX should TOTALLY go RWD.

qbrozen

I'm in the northeast and I'd love to see the TSX as RWD. It would actually give it a reason to exist, in my mind. As it is, a 200hp FWD 4-cyl $28k car makes NO sense to me. I'm not sure how they sell any. I mean, when you can get a V6 Accord for less money that has WAY more power and gets similar mileage ....

Anyway, I digress. The point is, at least RWD would set it apart. I think it would increase their sales.

qbrozen

much has been docucumented about Honda fans not liking this current generation of Accord styling

hehe. Which is probably why this is the first Accord I've liked.

If it wasn't for the redesigned taillights and 6-speed option on the sedan this year, there's no way I'd be driving one.

carguy58

"I'm surprised - what source said that Acura's customers are mostly in the Northeast? Acuras are very popular here in California, and I know they are a common sight in the Southwest."

Well Acura does sell well in the Northeastern states because I do live in the Northeast. I'm just not sure if Acura's buyer in the Northeast would like the TSX to move to RWD considering we get the occasional snowfall each year in the Northeast. I guess Acura's are popular in CA which I didn't till you just told me just now.

carguy58

"I'm in the northeast and I'd love to see the TSX as RWD. It would actually give it a reason to exist, in my mind. As it is, a 200hp FWD 4-cyl $28k car makes NO sense to me. I'm not sure how they sell any. I mean, when you can get a V6 Accord for less money that has WAY more power and gets similar mileage .... "

I agree a 28K car with a 4 cyl doesn;t make much sense but thats why I am saying they need to put a 6 cyl engine in the TSX. I agree a loaded up Accord is less money, you get a V6 with more power than the TSX 4 cyl has, and more interior room as well.

One more thing aren;t ytou converned about driving a RWD TSX in the snow since you live in the Northeast?

"Anyway, I digress. The point is, at least RWD would set it apart. I think it would increase their sales."

Ok, we all have are differing opinions.

nippononly

Seriously? Oh, well then let me say I am pretty sure Acura doesn't do especially well in any one region of the U.S., or especially poorly in another. Subaru, it aint! ;-)

Their sales are pretty evenly spread around, in a similar fashion to the way Honda's are (meaning more popular on the coasts, less in the midwest).

carguy58

"Isn't that what i said (majority) in post 7442? How honda doesn't need 4midsize sedans( tl tsx rl accord) and how that should be fixed? "

The TSX is mid-size. To me its compact. I wonder if the Civic Sedan has more interior room than the TSX. Has anybody thought about that yet?

stickguy

When did it become gospel that you can't drive a RWD car above the M-D line, or that it becomes a death ride as soon as some flurries fall? I think too many people have been brainwashed, or just grew up with FWD.

Most modern RWD cars have traction and stability control to help with getting it moving, which is pretty much the only advantage of FWD.

Probably the bigger issue is tires. Lots of performance (and too many non-performance cars) now come with overly wide, and often summer only tires, which some people attempt to use in the snow. No wonder they don't get grip!

A set of real snows will make a huge difference. A rwd car on Blizzaks will probably outperform a FWD on all seasons, and an AWD car running on summer tires.

I spent 4 years in upstate NY (sort of in the Adirondacks) with an assortment of RWD cars, including an AMC Hornet with semi bald snows, and I still managed to get around (I guess knowing how to drive in snow helped!).

WOrst snow car I ever owned? A fwd Dodge Colt, because it had the turbo suspension package an summer performance tires (closer to race tires than street tires). THat was like driving a car on 4 toboggans!

varmint

Remember... it's sold as standard, no frills sedan in other markets. They sell far more Euro Accords in other countries than they sell TSXs here in NA.

I doubt very much Honda would make changes to satisfy one noisey contingent here in the US when they earn most of their sales in other markets.

Besides. How hard has it been for Acura to sell the TSX as a FWDer? Not at all.

For the moment, SH-AWD is going to be Acura's answer to the lack of a RWD platform. SH-AWD allows Acura to continue platform sharing with Honda, while boosting performance higher for the A badged vehicles.

I dunno if it will work, but it looks like that's the plan.

stickguy

I suspect that a V6 might not even fit. If it did, it likely will upset the nice balance and handling it has.

Now, to me, one drawback was the lack of torque, which the RSX turbo engine would solve nicely.

I think they would need a whole new RWD platfor though to solve the drive wheel problem.

carguy58

"How bout they all go SH-AWD to fix all the problems."

I don;t know Rocky. This might be a stupid question/comment but can the TSx as small as it is handle an AWD system? I;m game for the TL to go AWD though.

varmint

I'm tellin' ya...

http://world.honda.com/Tokyo2005/sports4/

2 liter turbo engine... SH-AWD ...TSX-sized package

ateixeira

It doesn't have to be a euro Accord clone, though.

What surprises me is that Honda has not shared S2000 DNA with other models, that seems strange. I'm sure they could use that platform, stretched out a bit.

The RL is tougher. Honda has been green all this time, a flagship V10 would fly in the face of their history. Maybe give it a 4.0l V6 and try to make it more "presidential", i.e. bigger, taller, bolder, go after the aging Baby Boomers.

-juice

ateixeira

Yeah, nothing wrong with that concept! :shades:

Look evokes the Evo X a bit, but that's fine. They came out around the same time, I think, Acura may even have been first.

-juice

qbrozen

One more thing aren;t ytou converned about driving a RWD TSX in the snow since you live in the Northeast?

Well, stickguy beat me to it.

My last car (as i mentioned) was a V8 RWD Lincoln LS. Stability control is a wonderful thing. BUT, since I didn't want to bother putting snow tires on it, we just took my wife's vehicle to work if the weather was really bad. I think that may have happened twice last winter.

autoboy16

v8 not v10. V10 is in the works but an 8 is better IMO. Honda wouldn't put the v10 in the rl as RL stands for "road luxury" It is better suited for a _sx model.

Honda hasn't shared anything from the s2k in anything (ok maybe push button start). Honda should build a 2+2 convertible for acura or honda as both need a topless model for a family of 3. Cl was good and would look good with the tl's edginess, sportiness and luxuriousnes.