Has Honda's run - run out?

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Comments

  • heel2toeheel2toe Member Posts: 149
    The Euro Accord is a pretty expensive car relative to others in that class over there...I'm pretty sure that cost-wise and class-wise it is comparable to the American TSX. I also wouldn't assume that the Euro Accord sells more than the TSX, because Honda is a relatively weak brand in Europe and their auto industry is much more diversified (iirc, VW sells around 1m vehicles/year and is the overall sales leader).

    Browsing whatcar can be very entertaining...
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    :mad: THE EURO ACCORD AND OUR TSX ARE THE SAME MODEL (minus they have diesel and a wagon)!!! :mad: That was a bad desision on hondas part as acura is goning world wide soon. Its stress ful for them as we have the RL and they have Honda Legend as well as the Accord and Tsx. In fact they have an upscale civic called the CSX thats also in canada. They are dropping the rsx (euro is still the integra) to aid that. Another model was also dropped (nsx) for a while until the launch of Acura Global gets solved.

    Btw, Tsx and Rl are selling like free cold water in the desert and i live in Miami so RWD and FWD are both equally safe or foul weather. Besides many people buy 325i's & 330i's before they buy 325xi's 330xi's even in areas where it snows badly. RWD or SH-AWD would be gr8 for the TSX!
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    can the TSx as small as it is handle an AWD system?

    The TSX isn't *that* small. Imprezas and Eclipses managed to fit AWD just fine back in the '90s. They just have to give the next TSX an AWD-compatible rear suspension (no torsion beams).
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    So long as the TSX is the Euro Accord, it's not getting RWD, nor a V6, nor a turbo. Nor is it going to change much in size.

    If that's what you want, petition Acura for a totally new dedicated vehicle.
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    It can once acura goes global. The TSX we have must change after the euro accord or they will have 2 of the exact same model... unless their tsx is our accord :confuse:
  • heel2toeheel2toe Member Posts: 149
    Actually, it was a brilliant decision -- they built a very competive European small executive car, then realized that it could be sold in America as an Acura, brought it over with really modest sales expectations, and now they get an extra 50k units with much less development cost.

    The reason it is a bit awkward with respect to the U.S. market is that it was not designed for us. I'd suspect that the next generation will have more US/European distinction, but Honda can be very conservative too.

    The recent history of vehicles sold to both a European and American audience is pretty sketchy...so I'd consider this to be a pretty resounding success.
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    I know but acura has been around here for almost 20 years. IMO the reason they aren't selling enough vehicles is because of their slow production of vehicles and cancellation of the wron engines. eg the 2005 odyssey was in very high demand but couldn't get sent to dealers fast enough. By the time they came, most owners eventually bought a sienna or quest.

    Back in 1996, the 2nd generaton tl (tecnically 2nd because of the vigor name change) with the 2.5l 5cyl engine was a great car. It had more hp than the accord v6(2.7l) at the price of the primeum fuel requirement. That 2.5l should have been tweaked and be ofered in the TSX today but because of the cancellation, it isn't. That engine was offered in the Vigor in the early 90s but the model didn't sell because of its cramped interior. That was fixed in the 2.5tl.

    So tecnically, acura is designed for the Us but because of petty reasons won't sell (like the MIA v8, Rwd and 4 passenger converible).
  • acuraking_27acuraking_27 Member Posts: 15
    Ok, Hi, I work for Honda Motor Company, so i could get fired for doing this, but i am going to, because you all are pissing me off! (No offense)

    I'm gonna just address everybody's concerns in one message:
    I'm not necessarily going in order so flow with me... Stuff i've heard around the facilities, may/may not be true...

    Ok, The TSX for 2007: 2.3L VTEC TURBO, SH-AWD, Horsepower in the 250 range, and torque in the 250 range with a broad torque curve, about 3000-6000 rpm. It's not getting RWD, that's out, for all Honda/Acura vehicles...

    Yes, the Accord V6 costs less than a TSX, but is just as quick, yet not as powerful as the Accord. And you can't complain about the cost, 30k fully loaded TSX, is cheaper than any of it's competitors, and in alot of ways better. (Saab 9-3, MB C230 K, Audi A4, and IS250, all 4cyls except IS, which might as well be.)

    Honda/Acura has customers everywhere, probably most in west, and east...

    All Acura sedans considered "Midsize", complain all you want, but Acura's, and Honda's have more plusses than any other carmaker even Toyota... You can't even compare Honda's and Acura's, especially not in reliability, gas, luxury, performance, ect...

    The TSX is not getting a 6 cyl, case closed.

    Most, if not all Acura vehicles getting SH-AWD in the near future (2007-2008), yes, even the Next NSX (8Cyls, 460 horses, nevermind, lets not get into that)

    Accord is not being run down by anybody... especially not Mazda. Let's compare: Accord gets bout 31 hwy, the mazda gets about 25 hwy, and the hyundai gets about 31 hwy.
    Honda has best reliability, so far, excluding upcoming Hyundai's. Best 0-60, yet best MPG? Hmmmm... How is that possible? Mazda 274horses = 5.8 secs Hyundai 235horses = 7.2 secs, and honda 244horses = 5.8 secs. Yet the honda has the lowest engine torque?! Wouldn't mind Honda getting more juice, but doesn't need it considering it can outrun the gas killing 2007 Camry V6 and Passat V6's with way more horses.!

    Who ever said, "Let's Write Honda", NO!, Honda's know what the hell they are doing...!

    Honda/Acura is outselling competitors! Believe it or not!

    No, the TL and RL do not compete against the same vehicles, where would you get an idea like that!

    Yes, the TL does lack in power (258, 0-60 = 5.7), but it can still blow the damn doors off it's competitors G35 (280, = 6.1), Es330 (245, = 7.0), etc....

    The Vigor can't outrun a 2.7L Accord, case closed.

    The RL will get a V8 (around 360-390 horses) hopefully for 2008 model year, 2007 too soon...

    RL stands for Refined Luxury as it's debut in 1996 (10 year ann.)Refining of the Legend, duh! Not Road Luxury. As Does TL stands for Touring Luxury, and the TSX Stands for Touring Sport Crossover(X)(Spawn of the TL and RSX).

    And finally: the 2007 TL (will remain the same with the exception of widening the car about an inch or two, SH-AWD, black and white tail lenses, smoked out heads, and larger wheels, and slightly tweeked interior. And addition of Type-S model.... :)

    The TL is supposed to have around 290-300 horses, torque around 250-260, same 3.2, and the Type-S will have anywhere form 310-330 horses, and torque form 270-280 ft. lbs....
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    WOW !!!!! Thank-you pal. I hope everything you have said is mostly accurate. If the TL does get SH-AWD I might be in line for one especially a Type-S

    Any chance for ventilated seats in Acura's anytime soon pal ? :blush: Upgrade in DVD-Audio on the TL ? (More watts)

    Thanx alot seriously. :shades:

    Rocky
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,703
    Yes, the Accord V6 costs less than a TSX, but is just as quick, yet not as powerful as the Accord.

    PLEASE find me the TSX that goes 0-60 in under 6 secs!

    It's not getting RWD, that's out, for all Honda/Acura vehicles...

    Hmmmm... for someone that claims to work there, I'm shocked you've never seen an S2000.

    On top of that, I'd like to point out that it wasn't too long ago folks claimed Honda would never go with a V8.

    I'm not sure why anybody is "pissing you off." What is the big deal? If Honda believes they have everything under control, then it doesn't matter what the consumers say, does it?

    Oh, and as far as "outselling the competition," I think Toyota might have something to say about that. And don't get me wrong, I'm a Honda fan and dislike Toyota, but I'm also realistic.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I hope he is telling the truth, or atleast somewhat accurate qbrozen. If he is right we will have some very nice vehicles coming out.

    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    talk about corporate brain-washing, eh?! ;-)

    SH-AWD and the turbo 2.3 makes the most sense for the TSX, it's true, but if this and other changes that acura king mentioned actually happen, Acura's customer base is going to age a LOT in the next decade. Big sedans with big motors and big prices don't grab the eyes of the young 'uns.

    But of course, that would be the perfect formula for heading upmarket, something I am sure Acura is dying to do. In that case, the gamble is all AWD, no RWD. Will high-zoot consumers care? Will Acuras end up being heavier than the competition?

    And hey, last I checked the Toyota Camry V-6 got BETTER fuel economy ratings than the Accord V-6.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    I hope Acura doesn't head to far upmarket in prices. :sick: We have enough of that going on with other cars and Acura is basically the last affordable premium brand that someone with a middle class income can afford anymore. :cry:

    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    well, in five years, you will still be able to get a TSX with a 4-cylinder turbo for the price of today's TL. The TL then, I'm afraid, will be into a whole new league, starting in the upper $30Ks I suppose, or possibly even as high as $40K.

    But then, for you personally this should be fine. You have been salivating over a rumored TL-S, which you have to know won't start short of $35-37K, so if you have the bucks for that, then you should be well-equipped to remain a loyal Acura customer in the future! :-)

    Acura is clearly hoping to step DIRECTLY into Audi's shoes (only with better reliability), minus the cute little sub-$30K wagon/hatch. I hope they are prepared for Audi sales levels in that case, which are about half the current TL/TSX sales. Of course, Audi offers FWD in addition to AWD, and I suppose Acura will just make SH-AWD standard once it is offered at all.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    It is probably not a good idea to tell your current or potential customers that they piss you off just bacause they are not drinking corporate kool-aid and dare to have some requests/comments, no matter how ridiculous you think they are. People have host of wishes, very often contradictory - company's rule is to try to address them in such a way that more would buy than not buy their product.

    TSX a crossover? Hmm... What exacly are we crossing here with what? ;)

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    he said: they were crossing a TL with an RSX. That's some very bold corporate-speak considering TSX is a rebadged Euro-Accord. Especially given that the actual mechanicals of the car represent nothing of the sort.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    "I also wouldn't assume that the Euro Accord sells more than the TSX, because Honda is a relatively weak brand in Europe..."

    The Euro Accord is also sold in Japan, Africa, Australia, etc. It's not just for europeans.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Yeah, and RSX would probably be Road Sports Crossover. So TSX would be a crossover of a crossover? Cross-over-over, or cross-cross over? :P

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • ew3074ew3074 Member Posts: 20
    I don't think so. According to consumer report, many toyota models were listed ahead of honda's in terms of ranking.
    Honda makes a nice and fast car, but I don't think they are as reliable as toyota, otherwise people will go to buy Honda instead of toyota.

    By the way, I think people buying TL more than ES 330 or G35. One of the reason is if people are Honda/Acura fans, they don't have that much choices to buy a luxury car since Acura does not have many cars.
    Lexus, for example, they have ES and IS. If you add ES and IS together, for sure they will blow TL away
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    "Honda makes a nice and fast car, but I don't think they are as reliable as toyota, otherwise people will go to buy Honda instead of Toyota."

    Huh? A lot more people buy cars other than Honda and Toyota combined. For various reasons. The long-term quality difference between Honda and Toyota is negligible at best.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    I think buying Toyota over Honda has more to do with the price. It is general percetpion that Honda is more expensive, especially after accounting for rebates that Toyota tends to offer and Honda lacks.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • autoboy16autoboy16 Member Posts: 992
    :(but what about the convertible :cry: :sick:

    :mad: And while you are sooo much more informed than everybody else, i don't see you answering precise questions... IMHO, you're not a very friendly person!!

    Oh so when honda said Mdx stood for Multi Dimensional Luxury, i guess that changed too...

    But thanks for the information! "Tsx is a spawn of Tl and Rsx" now thats some true comedy :P !
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Multi Dementional

    Honda wouln't say that ;) . One dementia is more than enough. Perhaps you could try "multi-dimensional"? :P

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I think it must be a cross-crossover. But if you cross a crossover, do you just end up with an over? :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    a double-cross!
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    the Acura Double Cross! They could promote it at the Pirates of the Caribbean II movie this summer! :-)

    They should build the Acura Double Cross, and make it a 2-door hatch a la Mini Cooper S, with Euro styling, only with more power than the Mini and an old-style VTEC engine! Give it a badass face, limited slip and proper 6-speed box, and a $25K sticker, it would sell like hotcakes. The RSX would have sold better if it hadn't been quite so civilized.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    Stood for Multi Dimensional Crossover.

    Double-cross works. They already used Crossroad back in Japan.

    "The RSX would have sold better if it hadn't been quite so civilized."

    That would make it a Honda, right?
  • ontopontop Member Posts: 279
    If you add ES and IS together, for sure they will blow TL away

    Well one things for sure - the price tag differential for the Lexus over the Acura will be much higher than it is already. The TL is one of the best bargains out there. A loaded comfortable bomber for $31K. A comparable Lexus is $40K. An S Type TL for 07 will be even more potent and popular, and still be priced thousands less.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    Yup..That's why I'm driving my $30K TSX vs the near $40K I would've spend on a IS.
  • rockyleerockylee Member Posts: 14,014
    A loaded up IS can get into the $47K range :surprise:

    Rocky

    P.S. No Thanks ;)
  • ew3074ew3074 Member Posts: 20
    Another thing for sure.. Lexus means more luxury compared to Acura. It's like comparing Lexus and BMW. Lexus's models are mostly cheaper than BMW's.However, many people still buy BMW, why? Because BMW means more luxury.
  • irnmdnirnmdn Member Posts: 245
    The Euro Accord is also sold in Japan, Africa, Australia, etc. It's not just for europeans.
    Accord is sold here has been specially uglified to suit north American tastes.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Member Posts: 1,168
    Another thing for sure.. Lexus means more luxury compared to Acura. It's like comparing Lexus and BMW. Lexus's models are mostly cheaper than BMW's.However, many people still buy BMW, why? Because BMW means more luxury.

    I purchased my BMW not because of Luxury but fun to drive factor, handling etc.... Lexus easily beats BMW on Luxury. I considered buying an Acura CL at the same time....it was a very nice car, great price and features...but I couldn't get over it's BLAND styling. It had no character whatsoever. I'm glad I bought the BMW...the CL was cancelled a few years later, making it worthless in resale etc.. I think Lexus is trying to add character i.e.. the new IS is a great example.
  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    BMW ain't known for luxury....They're thing is road feel and handling. Not to mention German makes in general are know more for gadgetry.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Because BMW means more luxury.

    Not in case of X3 for sure (interior is simply downgrade), not in case of many other models, either. People buying BMW due to (in not particular order, subject to an individual) handling, unique technology, and perceived prestige of the brand name. People buy Lexus and Acura mostly because of perceived value of luxury and quality of execution/reliability. It is usually very hard to convince core owners of those vehicles to cross the frontlines and go another way.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • acuraking_27acuraking_27 Member Posts: 15
    OK, lets be realistic....
    Yes ive heard of an S2000 and an NSX which both have RWD. Honda/Acura's future vehicle have a 95% chance of not getting RWD, ever!

    Before the Accord came out in a 6speed Sedan, it couldn't pull a 0-60 of 7.5 secs to save its life.... The TSX new as a 2004 could do 7.6... Due to more power for 2006, no, not now... Now on the highway, Any V6 Accord could blow the doors off a TSX...

    Acura did say that they wouldn't debut a V8 in the US anytime soon, but things change, due to something called public relations...! They already have a V8 in Japan....

    And lets count, for 2006, so far, Toyota has sold 174,789 vehicles in the US and counting... Honda has sold 188,564 and counting......... go look it up.....

    Gracias!
  • acuraking_27acuraking_27 Member Posts: 15
    Not the 2007 Camry Buddy, maybe the mighty slow 192hp 2006 Camry or the 210hp 2006 Camry might get better gas mileage.

    And, yes i agree, Acura's fanbase may become "old", but they are not going up in price.... Chack this....

    The New RL, for example starts at $49,100. That's now in 2006. My mom owns a 1995 Legend GS that had a sticker of $45,660, we still have it for some odd reason. That was alot of money in 1995, compared to the rising prices today, the same or comparable vehicle in 2006 should cost way more than 50 grand.Think about that.
  • acuraking_27acuraking_27 Member Posts: 15
    Comedy my [non-permissible content removed]!

    Go back and search the internet for some Acura debut videos. In the conference Dick Colliver specifically said," We want to give Acura customers, a brand new vehicle, a new sedan, a sedan with the sportiness and economy of our RSX, and the prestige and luxury of our larger TL sedan..."

    I honestly don't know about that MDX thing, i can't say i was excited nor blown away when the MDX debuted.
  • acuraking_27acuraking_27 Member Posts: 15
    I don't have customers, i get paid a salary. And believe me, the notes written on this forum even if was spread around the world, couldn't put a dent in Honda/Acura sales. You know why? it called reputation, and its gonna take a hell of alot to destryo theirs!
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    And lets count, for 2006, so far, Toyota has sold 174,789 vehicles in the US and counting... Honda has sold 188,564 and counting......... go look it up.....

    I did. According to Automotive News, YTD sales January - May:

    Honda Motor: 614,778
    Toyota: 1,000,524

    You're more than a bit off. I do have my doubts about your place of employment...
  • acuraking_27acuraking_27 Member Posts: 15
    No.
    Buying a Toyota over Honda is simply personal preference because they are very similar in price and reliability.
    Honda is not more expensive, because.... wait, back up, ok, A honda may have a higher base price than a comparable Toyota, but you have to remember that Honda/Acura is more about "Standard" features, that Toyota makes you pay arm and a leg for. By the time you load up a Toyota, it's price could stretch beyond a fully loaded Honda/Acura vehicle.

    Toyota has options, engines, accesories...
    Honda has one option, Navigation, and accesories, and engine.
    A fully loaded Honda Accord minus accesories is about 30k-31k
    A fully loaded Camry miuns accesories could stretch to just below 34k or even 35k.
  • acuraking_27acuraking_27 Member Posts: 15
    Not quite sure where they got that Honda figure from, but Honda reported themselves, having outsold all import companies as of June 2006

    Oh, Wait sorry, that was for import sedans... But still the best sellers are the Camry and Accord, and Honda sold more.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    You really don't get it, do you? Most people post here because they LIKE Honda/Acura. These are ideas of making it even better, not to put a dent in their sales or destroy it :surprise: :confuse: :sick: . Call it "concerned citizen" forum or else. One may discuss validity or logic of these ideas, but if you are looking for some anti-Honda conspiracy, it ain't here, pal.

    And regardless how you are paid, everyone who buys or considers your company product, is your customer. You work for them, without them your job would not exist, period. If you don't understand that, I can't help you. I just hope that your attitude is not common there, otherwise they are in much bigger trouble that I ever imagined, even if their current sales are just fine.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • acuraking_27acuraking_27 Member Posts: 15
    I Like Honda/Acura. In fact Honda/Acura is my favorite auto company. I was just browsing the internet, and found this forum. I just wanted to put my two cents in, and hopefully straighten out some of the rumors floating the pipeline. But it's been fun! ;)

    And my messages weren't even about putting a dent in Honda's Sales anyway, somebody brought that up all off subject... To be honest i don't even remember what the source of these messages were.
  • ew3074ew3074 Member Posts: 20
    badge effect is the most reason
    If you ask a person for ranking of luxury car that has the most badge effect including (BMW,Benz,Lexus, Acura, Audi)
    I can bet you a 1000 dollars that BMW and Benz will rank the top
    don't get me wrong here, I am a toyota/lexus fan, but I am realistic
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    EPA ratings:

    2007 Toyota Camry V-6: 22/31 (with 20 more horsepower)

    2006 Honda Accord V-6: 21/30 (MT), 20/29 (AT).

    Camry is higher. Not sure where you are getting your facts.

    OTOH, give ME the Accord 4-cyl MT: rated 26/34 and a better drive than the '07 Camry, not to mention has a manual that isn't total myth, but is actually on dealer lots.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • gee35coupegee35coupe Member Posts: 3,387
    I was looking for something different than a Honda before I bought my TSX. A manual Camry SE can't be had in Leather and costs almost $30k loaded. That's why I have a TSX now. My TSX 6MT NAV cap cost is $29.5K with lots of accessories included.
  • socala4socala4 Member Posts: 2,427
    A manual Camry SE can't be had in Leather and costs almost $30k loaded. That's why I have a TSX now.

    The TSX doesn't directly compete with the Camry, as it is a smaller car with less interior space. If you compare the dimensions, per Motor Trend, the Camry is six inches longer, 1 1/2 inches wider, has a wheelbase that is two inches longer, and has about ten more cubic feet of interior space than does the TSX.

    Both Toyota and Honda offer cars here unique to us to meet US tastes for larger cars. The TSX was designed to be sold primarily as a Honda Accord outside of North America, as it was considered by Honda to be too small to sold to the American mainstream sedan buyer. The Camry is more similar to the Accord, with both of those sold here designed especially for us.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    Well Toyota's exterior styling caters to more people than Honda's exterior styling. Toyota is just more of of a mass market automaker than Honda. Also, Honda is more enthusiast driven towards the younger crowd than Toyota has been since the earky 90's.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I think Gee's point is that Toyota is going to lose buyers who want a loaded car with a manual transmission. Those buyers may be few and far between but they do exist. Also, for the buyer who doesn't need the space the TSX is a nicer car with more performance than a SE 5-speed Camry for the same price.
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