I’ve posted this message at the RL thread also, but while we’re talking about SH-AWD, I just discovered that SH-AWD has a conceptual predecessor going back to 1991! The Honda FS-X (“FS”: Futuristic Sport) concept
The AWD system included an early design of the ATTS (later introduced in Prelude) in pretty much the same way that the SH-AWD does. The FS-X system transferred torque front wheels to rear wheels (using AWD system) and side to side on the rear wheels (using ATTS).
But speaking of AWD Coupe, how's this for an idea...
Base vehicle: Accord LXV6 ($24K) AWD w/Sport Package: SH-AWD ($5K)
Now, we know Honda can squeeze out 300 HP from its J35A, so 260 HP from J30A should come easy. Or just throw in the J32A (even J35A could do)! And there is a slick 6-speed manual ready to go anyway!
Better yet, start with the compact car platform, slightly enlarged to carry the J30A. This could save some money (compared to the more expensive platform that the global midsize is) and afford lower price tag.
Honda's compact cars are not designed with the structure necessary for WRC racing. Honda designs their cars for the road (and track). They leave the off-road sort of thing to their ATVs.
Generally, I think that asking questions like, "Why doesn't Honda build a WRX slayer?", or "Why doesn't Honda build a full-size truck?", are shots way off the mark. Companies do what companies are good at and in segments where they can profit. We might as well ask why Subaru or Ford won't build a vehicle like the Rune...
What's the difference between a Honda Civic and a Subaru Impreza (WRX/Sti) and a Mitsubishi Lancer (EVO) - there's no major structural differences - unibody cars, front and rear subframes, sideways motors, etc - same deal -
I'm told that Subaru includes quite a few structural "enhancements" in the Imprezza line to make it work for WRC racing. These are included in design of the car. Ford had to beef up the Focus quite a bit, as well.
Hinda tries to build their cars light and agile (with varying degrees of success). They are not especially rugged.
The 04 Civic coupe I have now is much more flexible than the WRX wagon I had. I think it would need a lot of structural improvements to make it a WRC car. It's built to be light and run cheap, not run through the woods at 100mph.
Also, the current Sube motors are all longitudinal, not sideways like the Honda. They use an H-4 and an H-6 with the trans axle off the rear of the engine. Makes AWD easy.
I wouldn't agree on that. Subaru or Mitsubishi aren't taking their stock cars to WRC racing off the showroom floor. They still involve major structural enhancements.
Honda hasn't shown interest in off-road racing with its automobile arm, and but focused on road, especially open wheel. If they did, it would take little effort.
OTOH, Honda has shown tremendous interest in offroad racing when it comes to bikes (besides on-road).
To add to my last message, think RSX which is also based off the compact car platform that Civic is.
In road racing, the chassis tuning requirements are different from that in offroad racing. In that sense, forget Civic and RSX, Honda Jazz/Fit could serve as a better starting point. Jazz/Fit is based off global economy car platform (a step below the global compact car platform.
Oh, sure. I'm certain that the actual rally cars are modded before taking to the track. I did not mean to suggest otherwise.
However, I am told that Subaru designs the Impreza with those modifications in mind. "We'll use this suspension subframe because when we race the car we'll have to add this other thingy..." Stuff like that.
I'm certain that Honda does the same thing with the Civic. They use a base design that will be easy to transform into the RSX.
Trying to design a Civic that works as an RSX (light and nimble), and also a CR-V (spacious), then adding WRC car requirements into the mix makes for a lot of conflicting considerations.
Honda's back to number 2 in Japan, thanks to the Fit.
Acura had a record breaking month, more because of the TL than the MDX.
The US Honda division isn't doing so hot... big gains only on the Pilot. The Accord isn't doing as well as last year. Maybe Honda's spending too many resources on all its vehicles other than its bread-and-butter Accord and Civic?
The Civic is in it's next-to-last year of production. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for sales to be slightly down but they are actually up for the year by 1,000 units. The Accord is down but is competing with cars with special financing and rebates. They achieve the Accord's sales numbers with very little in the way of rebates and almost no fleet sales.
I understand exactly what you are trying to say here, and agree with the sentiment. Having said that, rebates and incentives are a fact of life industrywide, and they are not going away this year or next. Which leaves Honda two courses of action (well, three if you include offering incentives of its own which I am sure it would never do and which I don't think is a good idea anyway). It can make the product more attractive or reduce its price. Or both. The '05 Accord took a major step forward in standard safety features - will people notice? In amenities it is at or below the level of domestic competitors at the price. In performance it is midpack and in reliability.....well, in reliability we could argue all day. Overall it is a decently built car but with some very public transmission recalls these last 12 months, and statistically it doesn't stand way out from the crowd in initial quality, even if it is near the top of the charts.
So what to do - drop the price $1000-1500, or throw in some new stuff that is currently only standard on Acuras, like power seats and auto climate control? Accord's primary competition is Camry, which has a lower base price and more standard amenities, although does not have the standard side air curtains (or side front airbags, I don't think) that all the '05 Accords now have.
Or maybe forget all of this, accept sales that trail off as the model enters the second half of its current generation, and throw in everything but the kitchen sink for the '08 redo?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Midpack? It consistently posts performance numbers within tenths of a second of the highest-performing cars and in some cases it is the highest-performing car in performance tests.
"In amenities it is at or below the level of domestic competitors at the price"
No one will argue against that but you get what you pay for. The Camry and Accord are both priced higher than a Malibu for example. But that's like saying BMW is priced higher than a Cadillac. Again, you get what you pay for.
"or throw in some new stuff that is currently only standard on Acuras, like power seats and auto climate control?"
An Accord EX-L has a 6-disc changer, dual-zone climate, heated seats, LED gauges, wheels, ABS, side curtain airbags, etc. I think it is VERY well-equipped for the price. It is one of the better values as far as mid-size sedans go IMO.
"Accord's primary competition is Camry, which has a lower base price and more standard amenities,"
A 2005 Camry LE and a 2005 Accord LX are within a couple of hundred dollars of each other price-wise. The Accord has standard ABS, side and side curtain airbags, anti-theft system, and LED gauges (did the Camry get these for 05). The Camry has a full-size spare, power driver's seat, split-folding rear seat, outside temp gauge, and DRL's. Personally, I would rather have the additional safety equipment for the same price.
Right now even Honda admits it's having a tough time selling its cars compared to the competition. How do I know this? Their latest advertising not only doesn't focus on their cars, it doesn't even MENTION any of their vehicle models. They're promoting their safety testing division and how much work they do there. But they're doing it WITHOUT quoting comparitive crash test ratings with other vehicles.
Basically, Honda's trying to advertise their name without bringing up their cars. When a car manufacturer tries to promote their name, they usually associate it with at least some of their cars while they basically promote the whole line. The fact that Honda is avoiding this seems significant to me, since their not even promoting their line, just their name (The line gets promoted by implication of testing).
Honda's usual approach to commercials has been a focus on its own products and facilities. You might have seen some commercials involving their Champ car scorching the tracks. This is no different. It serves the purpose well in trying to educate buyers that the company is focused on safety aspect as well. It allows them to advertise Hondas in general rather than a specific model.
OTOH, it is the competition that uses the benchmarks Civic and Accord. The latest commercial for Camry involves... why you should buy a Camry over an Accord... "because it has standard CD player" is quite funny. Don't tell me that Toyota is comparing Camry LE to Accord DX. Heck, now ever DX has CD player standard.
I'm glad Honda chooses to advertise its products differently than others. It just goes on to say what it feels like to be a benchmark. ;-)
Side airbags, side curtain airbags and anti-theft system are optional in Camry. Lower base price at the cost of features means nothing, unless those additions are deemed useless.
Actually, I was referring to Honda's safety testing center advertisement...with them going over all the testing they do. It would have been an interesting ad, but they didn't refer to any final crash testing results compared to other cars...now why advertise something like that, and not connect your brand identity with your cars, when you can't even quote the benefit of it?
With that commercial, they aren't advertising a specific car, but the brand as a whole. It makes sense to me.
OTOH, there was another commercial that I like, and extended beyond cars... including every product from Honda, flowing from one to another (featured marine/jet ski, NSX, Gold Wing, power generator, ATV).
Yeah, but that one INCLUDED the cars in selling the brand. That's reasonable. But you can't build a brand image without products.
Volvo built their safety image by showing their cars going through testing. They didn't SPECIFICALLY mention any brands, but they were in the ad (I remember one rollover ad Volvo did I believe). Mazda promotes their "zoom zoom" by showing all of their cars driving around with the "soul of a sportscar," without mentioning a specific model. Honda is trying to build brand image by showing an empty crash test center. Eliminate the products they ACTUALLY sell, and it seems like their trying to turn the name into a "product."
You know the old saying about paying more for a nameplate? Seems like Honda is trying to advertise theit nameplate, rather than their cars. Not "in addition to" like in the previous ad spot you mentioned (Which I thought was a really good one BTW) but "in place of" in this case.
They are advertising their focus on safety regardless of the model. I do not see a problem with that. They also have commercials that solely focus on the car. They have been very candid about safety being one of their primary goals right now. They are VERY proud of their industry leading crash test facility that they spend lotsa money on. It has paid off. The Accord was one of only two mid-size inexpensive sedans to receive a Good rating in IIHS side impact tests.
America doesn't need to see a car to understand what Honda is about. So, it works for Honda. Like I mentioned earlier, this isn't the first time Honda has done it. "Power Of Dreams" using the Champ Car was another instance of doing the same.
Not always you need to be specific about products, especially if it is an established brand that Honda is.
behind all those IIHS side impact tests is that the only cars getting "good" ratings are the ones equipped with side air curtains, and that includes the Accord. So kudos to Honda for making the curtains standard for '05. Camry has that same problem, and side curtains are still optional, and not on the base model.
anonymous: there is a new Camry "standard" model this year below the LE that incorporates most of the LE stuff, and scrimps in little ways (deletes the power driver's seat, keyless entry, and full-size spare in favor of a donut), while being $2000 less than the Accord LX (and that is just sticker to sticker). And yes, it has ABS, CD player, and A/C at that price. That is what I meant by my remark that the Camry is cheaper. Actually my remark is not strictly correct, of course, because the Accord DX is the lowest price of all, but that car has no A/C and scrimps in other more obvious ways (deleting power door locks and mirrors, cruise control, substituting skinnier tires, but not reducing safety features of course).
Honda has started a major drive to sell the safety aspects of all their cars rather than the dynamic ones. They are spending lots on safety feature development in their vehicles, and they are the only ones right now with the standard side curtains at the price point, so it is understandable. I just wonder how much safety sells. Volvo sells mainly on its safety image, and of course their sales are 1/10 of Honda sales (at a higher price range)...
Here - ""or throw in some new stuff that is currently only standard on Acuras, like power seats and auto climate control?"" - I was referring to the fact that all Camrys except the "standard" have a power driver's seat for '05 (just to clarify).
Accord is only just finishing its second model year of the current gen and sales have been down for most of calendar 2004. I am not saying that Accord is not a great car, and I am not saying it isn't a very impressive value in my eyes. I am trying to project myself into the minds and hearts of all the people out there who went elsewhere for their new midsize sedan this year...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I mean, it's not like they are idling the factory or something. Geez.
Looks like they just traded some capacity for the TL which is also built in the Marysville factory. It has the capacity to produce 440,000 cars/year. It seems to be running near full tilt boogie. http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1008?mid=2004051144483
Well 5% may not seem like much, but when you compare it with the Accord's total sales volume, it's not a small number, either. I think it's fair to say that the Accord is slipping a bit.
OTOH, I think it's foolish to assume this means the whole company is slipping. I mean, Pilot sales are up 14%. You can bet that Ody sales are about to jump, too. The company as a whole is doing quite well.
Impala is up as we all know. Altima is WAY up, 16%+. Taurus is a has-been, Mazda 6 is kinda too new to be meaningful (but is up a lot), Malibu results are tempered by the continuance of the Classic model. Legacy is up, Sonata is WAY up (and this last is an old model due for replacement in the next year or two).
Accord stands out by not being up in this market. And down 5% makes it worse off than models like the Grand Am (not for this world much longer), and the uninspiring Dodge Stratus and Chrysler Sebring (this last actually up slightly also).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Civic platform has nothing in common with the Impreza, but it is similar conceptually to the Lancer. That's a transverse mounted in-line 4, front-mounted intercooler plus turbo, FWD platform with AWD variants.
But they would need to produce turbos for the street, which Honda won't do.
RSX Type S just got a HP boost, but it's not going EVO hunting any time soon. S2000 is closer to that level, and Subaru and Mitsu don't have roadsters, either.
Rune looks cool, but if Subaru built a bike they'd compete with BMW in the boxer twin segment!
Cool, I had no idea they used a boxer 6 in the Goldwing, I swore it was a V6. Color me shocked!
scape2: bad timing for your trolling, Element is getting new air bags as standard.
Ford's tests without side bags is nothing to brag about, either. Ford provided extra cars to test with the bags and they were better, Honda did not do so, so the potentially better ratings never showed up. Maybe now they will re-test them.
has no B-pillar to speak of, along the lines of those pickup trucks that have the suicide doors, I'm very impressed with how well it crashed. I remember a few years back, there was a crash test done on the Ford, Dodge, Chevy, and Toyota extended cab truck, all which had the rear-hinged suicide doors, and only the Toyota did well. The Chevy looked like it held up well in the pic, but still did pretty poorly as far as the crash test dummy was concerned. And the Ram and F-150 were downright embarrassing! I think that was one reason that when the Ram redesigned for 2002, they went to forward-hinged rear doors, and a full B-pillar.
Without the added rigidity of the B-pillar, the whole passenger cabin often tends to twist forward in a crash.
Element did not fare well, IMHO, in the side impact tests. The vehicle is a lot heavier than the CR-V and Honda justified the extra weight by saying they beefed up the doors to compensate.
Well, that failed.
Having said that, with airbags it should do a whole lot better, so the issue has been addressed.
A complaint sent in two days ago gives a different slant on Honda oil changes. (I changed the all-uppercase of the report - just too darn hard to read like that)
ODI ID Number : 100935092004 -- Honda CRV developed an oil leak after the 1st oil change. Dealer said it was probably related to the sticky gasket issue (NHTSA investigation). After 2nd oil change it is still leaking and took it to another Honda dealer today who said it was leaking from the vtec solenoid which was replaced. They also said they cleaned under the vehicle but it was still covered with the leak detection powder. Seems to be leaking still. There was an even larger puddle under the vehicle after I drove it home. It’s back at Kirkland Honda now.
This is post 220 in the SUV area under CRV engine fires.... Yep, Honda doesn't have a problem.. Yeah right!... keep the pressure on folks its the only way you are going to get an answer..
I would like to see a return to using real names on all models in the Acura line, starting with Integra (if it survives to the next generation as an Acura) and Legend. Who's with me?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nippon - I think the car needs to be made right before they can go back to using the Legend name. The 2005 model is a huge step in the right direction, but public perception will need time to match the vehicle.
Besides, the MDX and TL now have as much market strength as the Legend ever did. You would have them kill that?
respectfully disagree, to some extent. A lot more people knew what a Legend was back in the day (a day when the market was a lot less crowded, of course) than know what an MDX or a TL are today. The letter thing has become a huge ghoulash (sp?) - with everyone calling their cars by letters or numbers (the height of absurdity is there are now two different LS's on the market) no-one can easily recall what ANY of them are, except folks who post here!
Make the marketing department do a couple of all-nighters, and I am sure they could come up with some really swish names for the TL, the MDX, and even the TSX.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
yeah, and it's kinda interesting that GM has now decided to extend this naming approach to a non-premium brand. I am trying to think - isn't this the first such example?
OK, wait, no, there is the S2000. Not that that model seems to fit the Honda brand all that well, in the same way NSX does not currently seem to fit the rest of the Acura line-up all that well.
And there will soon be the Ford 500, pretty much right now in fact. And then there's the Mazda3 and 6, although I was never clear if the model names included the word 'Mazda'. OK, I will stop musing now! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nippon - Well, yes, back in the day the Legend had a great deal of name recognition. And it still has more than the name RL. But if Acura revived the Legend nameplate for the 2005 RL, it would reek of marketing and people would accuse Acura of trying to pull the wool over a few eyes.
I have no problem with bringing that name back, but they need to have a car for which the public has some respect. As good as the new RL is, it is still unproven.
Second, they still have a way to go before the Acura brand is as respected as other luxury marques. Once that issue has been resolved, they can start focusing more attention on individual cars.
As for mainstream brands using alpha names, there's the CRX and CR-V in our markets. The FR-V and HR-V are sold in others.
Ford didn't just pull the Five Hundred nameplate out of its corporate hat. The Five Hundred is supposed to recall the Galaxie and Fairlane 500s of the late 1950s and 1960s.
As for Acura's place in the market - it has always struck me as a "near luxury" marque. The lack of a rear-wheel-drive passenger car platform, along with no V-8s and too many smaller, less expensive models keeps it out of the Lexus/BMW/Mercedes/Cadillac league.
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The AWD system included an early design of the ATTS (later introduced in Prelude) in pretty much the same way that the SH-AWD does. The FS-X system transferred torque front wheels to rear wheels (using AWD system) and side to side on the rear wheels (using ATTS).
But speaking of AWD Coupe, how's this for an idea...
Base vehicle: Accord LXV6 ($24K)
AWD w/Sport Package: SH-AWD ($5K)
Now, we know Honda can squeeze out 300 HP from its J35A, so 260 HP from J30A should come easy. Or just throw in the J32A (even J35A could do)! And there is a slick 6-speed manual ready to go anyway!
Better yet, start with the compact car platform, slightly enlarged to carry the J30A. This could save some money (compared to the more expensive platform that the global midsize is) and afford lower price tag.
MUCH better yet. The Accord coupe is too big - the car I would want would be 3/4 the size (or less).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Generally, I think that asking questions like, "Why doesn't Honda build a WRX slayer?", or "Why doesn't Honda build a full-size truck?", are shots way off the mark. Companies do what companies are good at and in segments where they can profit. We might as well ask why Subaru or Ford won't build a vehicle like the Rune...
Hinda tries to build their cars light and agile (with varying degrees of success). They are not especially rugged.
Also, the current Sube motors are all longitudinal, not sideways like the Honda. They use an H-4 and an H-6 with the trans axle off the rear of the engine. Makes AWD easy.
It would be nice if Honda made an AWD car again.
Honda hasn't shown interest in off-road racing with its automobile arm, and but focused on road, especially open wheel. If they did, it would take little effort.
OTOH, Honda has shown tremendous interest in offroad racing when it comes to bikes (besides on-road).
In road racing, the chassis tuning requirements are different from that in offroad racing. In that sense, forget Civic and RSX, Honda Jazz/Fit could serve as a better starting point. Jazz/Fit is based off global economy car platform (a step below the global compact car platform.
However, I am told that Subaru designs the Impreza with those modifications in mind. "We'll use this suspension subframe because when we race the car we'll have to add this other thingy..." Stuff like that.
I'm certain that Honda does the same thing with the Civic. They use a base design that will be easy to transform into the RSX.
Trying to design a Civic that works as an RSX (light and nimble), and also a CR-V (spacious), then adding WRC car requirements into the mix makes for a lot of conflicting considerations.
Acura had a record breaking month, more because of the TL than the MDX.
The US Honda division isn't doing so hot... big gains only on the Pilot. The Accord isn't doing as well as last year. Maybe Honda's spending too many resources on all its vehicles other than its bread-and-butter Accord and Civic?
So what to do - drop the price $1000-1500, or throw in some new stuff that is currently only standard on Acuras, like power seats and auto climate control? Accord's primary competition is Camry, which has a lower base price and more standard amenities, although does not have the standard side air curtains (or side front airbags, I don't think) that all the '05 Accords now have.
Or maybe forget all of this, accept sales that trail off as the model enters the second half of its current generation, and throw in everything but the kitchen sink for the '08 redo?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Midpack? It consistently posts performance numbers within tenths of a second of the highest-performing cars and in some cases it is the highest-performing car in performance tests.
"In amenities it is at or below the level of domestic competitors at the price"
No one will argue against that but you get what you pay for. The Camry and Accord are both priced higher than a Malibu for example. But that's like saying BMW is priced higher than a Cadillac. Again, you get what you pay for.
"or throw in some new stuff that is currently only standard on Acuras, like power seats and auto climate control?"
An Accord EX-L has a 6-disc changer, dual-zone climate, heated seats, LED gauges, wheels, ABS, side curtain airbags, etc. I think it is VERY well-equipped for the price. It is one of the better values as far as mid-size sedans go IMO.
"Accord's primary competition is Camry, which has a lower base price and more standard amenities,"
A 2005 Camry LE and a 2005 Accord LX are within a couple of hundred dollars of each other price-wise. The Accord has standard ABS, side and side curtain airbags, anti-theft system, and LED gauges (did the Camry get these for 05). The Camry has a full-size spare, power driver's seat, split-folding rear seat, outside temp gauge, and DRL's. Personally, I would rather have the additional safety equipment for the same price.
Basically, Honda's trying to advertise their name without bringing up their cars. When a car manufacturer tries to promote their name, they usually associate it with at least some of their cars while they basically promote the whole line. The fact that Honda is avoiding this seems significant to me, since their not even promoting their line, just their name (The line gets promoted by implication of testing).
OTOH, it is the competition that uses the benchmarks Civic and Accord. The latest commercial for Camry involves... why you should buy a Camry over an Accord... "because it has standard CD player" is quite funny. Don't tell me that Toyota is comparing Camry LE to Accord DX. Heck, now ever DX has CD player standard.
I'm glad Honda chooses to advertise its products differently than others. It just goes on to say what it feels like to be a benchmark. ;-)
Accord LX/5AT (incl Destination): $20,990
Camry LE/5AT (incl Destination): $20,515
Side airbags, side curtain airbags and anti-theft system are optional in Camry. Lower base price at the cost of features means nothing, unless those additions are deemed useless.
OTOH, there was another commercial that I like, and extended beyond cars... including every product from Honda, flowing from one to another (featured marine/jet ski, NSX, Gold Wing, power generator, ATV).
Volvo built their safety image by showing their cars going through testing. They didn't SPECIFICALLY mention any brands, but they were in the ad (I remember one rollover ad Volvo did I believe). Mazda promotes their "zoom zoom" by showing all of their cars driving around with the "soul of a sportscar," without mentioning a specific model. Honda is trying to build brand image by showing an empty crash test center. Eliminate the products they ACTUALLY sell, and it seems like their trying to turn the name into a "product."
You know the old saying about paying more for a nameplate? Seems like Honda is trying to advertise theit nameplate, rather than their cars. Not "in addition to" like in the previous ad spot you mentioned (Which I thought was a really good one BTW) but "in place of" in this case.
Not always you need to be specific about products, especially if it is an established brand that Honda is.
anonymous: there is a new Camry "standard" model this year below the LE that incorporates most of the LE stuff, and scrimps in little ways (deletes the power driver's seat, keyless entry, and full-size spare in favor of a donut), while being $2000 less than the Accord LX (and that is just sticker to sticker). And yes, it has ABS, CD player, and A/C at that price. That is what I meant by my remark that the Camry is cheaper. Actually my remark is not strictly correct, of course, because the Accord DX is the lowest price of all, but that car has no A/C and scrimps in other more obvious ways (deleting power door locks and mirrors, cruise control, substituting skinnier tires, but not reducing safety features of course).
Honda has started a major drive to sell the safety aspects of all their cars rather than the dynamic ones. They are spending lots on safety feature development in their vehicles, and they are the only ones right now with the standard side curtains at the price point, so it is understandable. I just wonder how much safety sells. Volvo sells mainly on its safety image, and of course their sales are 1/10 of Honda sales (at a higher price range)...
Here - ""or throw in some new stuff that is currently only standard on Acuras, like power seats and auto climate control?"" - I was referring to the fact that all Camrys except the "standard" have a power driver's seat for '05 (just to clarify).
Accord is only just finishing its second model year of the current gen and sales have been down for most of calendar 2004. I am not saying that Accord is not a great car, and I am not saying it isn't a very impressive value in my eyes. I am trying to project myself into the minds and hearts of all the people out there who went elsewhere for their new midsize sedan this year...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I mean, it's not like they are idling the factory or something. Geez.
Looks like they just traded some capacity for the TL which is also built in the Marysville factory. It has the capacity to produce 440,000 cars/year. It seems to be running near full tilt boogie.
http://www.hondanews.com/CatID1008?mid=2004051144483
OTOH, I think it's foolish to assume this means the whole company is slipping. I mean, Pilot sales are up 14%. You can bet that Ody sales are about to jump, too. The company as a whole is doing quite well.
http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp
Impala is up as we all know. Altima is WAY up, 16%+. Taurus is a has-been, Mazda 6 is kinda too new to be meaningful (but is up a lot), Malibu results are tempered by the continuance of the Classic model. Legacy is up, Sonata is WAY up (and this last is an old model due for replacement in the next year or two).
Accord stands out by not being up in this market. And down 5% makes it worse off than models like the Grand Am (not for this world much longer), and the uninspiring Dodge Stratus and Chrysler Sebring (this last actually up slightly also).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But they would need to produce turbos for the street, which Honda won't do.
RSX Type S just got a HP boost, but it's not going EVO hunting any time soon. S2000 is closer to that level, and Subaru and Mitsu don't have roadsters, either.
Rune looks cool, but if Subaru built a bike they'd compete with BMW in the boxer twin segment!
-juice
You mean, like a horizontally-opposed 6?
scape2: bad timing for your trolling, Element is getting new air bags as standard.
Ford's tests without side bags is nothing to brag about, either. Ford provided extra cars to test with the bags and they were better, Honda did not do so, so the potentially better ratings never showed up. Maybe now they will re-test them.
-juice
http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0304.htm
There are very few cars if any that get better than poor on IIHS's side impact without side airbags.
I don't get where the "terrible" is warrranted.
Nothing to brag about, Poor and Marginal sprinkled throughout.
Compared to the class leading Forester (NCAP 5/5/5/5 stars, IIHS Best Pick offset, IIHS Good side), it's almost embarassing.
As for Honda, well, 2005 brings on key improvements (namely VSA and air bag availability).
-juice
Without the added rigidity of the B-pillar, the whole passenger cabin often tends to twist forward in a crash.
Element did not fare well, IMHO, in the side impact tests. The vehicle is a lot heavier than the CR-V and Honda justified the extra weight by saying they beefed up the doors to compensate.
Well, that failed.
Having said that, with airbags it should do a whole lot better, so the issue has been addressed.
-juice
ODI ID Number : 100935092004 -- Honda CRV developed an oil leak after the 1st oil change. Dealer said it was probably related to the sticky gasket issue (NHTSA investigation). After 2nd oil change it is still leaking and took it to another Honda dealer today who said it was leaking from the vtec solenoid which was replaced. They also said they cleaned under the vehicle but it was still covered with the leak detection powder. Seems to be leaking still. There was an even larger puddle under the vehicle after I drove it home. It’s back at Kirkland Honda now.
This is post 220 in the SUV area under CRV engine fires.... Yep, Honda doesn't have a problem.. Yeah right!... keep the pressure on folks its the only way you are going to get an answer..
More stuff offered in the market (as expected)
I would like to see a return to using real names on all models in the Acura line, starting with Integra (if it survives to the next generation as an Acura) and Legend. Who's with me?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nippon - I think the car needs to be made right before they can go back to using the Legend name. The 2005 model is a huge step in the right direction, but public perception will need time to match the vehicle.
Besides, the MDX and TL now have as much market strength as the Legend ever did. You would have them kill that?
Make the marketing department do a couple of all-nighters, and I am sure they could come up with some really swish names for the TL, the MDX, and even the TSX.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
OK, wait, no, there is the S2000. Not that that model seems to fit the Honda brand all that well, in the same way NSX does not currently seem to fit the rest of the Acura line-up all that well.
And there will soon be the Ford 500, pretty much right now in fact. And then there's the Mazda3 and 6, although I was never clear if the model names included the word 'Mazda'. OK, I will stop musing now! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Nippon - Well, yes, back in the day the Legend had a great deal of name recognition. And it still has more than the name RL. But if Acura revived the Legend nameplate for the 2005 RL, it would reek of marketing and people would accuse Acura of trying to pull the wool over a few eyes.
I have no problem with bringing that name back, but they need to have a car for which the public has some respect. As good as the new RL is, it is still unproven.
Second, they still have a way to go before the Acura brand is as respected as other luxury marques. Once that issue has been resolved, they can start focusing more attention on individual cars.
As for mainstream brands using alpha names, there's the CRX and CR-V in our markets. The FR-V and HR-V are sold in others.
As for Acura's place in the market - it has always struck me as a "near luxury" marque. The lack of a rear-wheel-drive passenger car platform, along with no V-8s and too many smaller, less expensive models keeps it out of the Lexus/BMW/Mercedes/Cadillac league.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)