16-21 year olds are likely to get hand me down vehicles, although these $10-14K vehicles do provide an option to the parents who choose to buy one for them.
Engine displacing at least 1.5 is definitely needed, and in a light car like Fit (about 2250 lb), 110 HP can translate to acceptable performance, and excellent fuel economy (I suspect 40 mpg or better, combined).
The FR-V is more or less the replacement for the Stream. When the Stream hit the market, journalists and buyers bought them up in droves. They liked the vehicle. They liked the seven seat capacity, styling, and zippy performance from the optional 2.0 i-VTEC engine.
Then came Nissan.
Actually, I forget whether it was Nissan or Renault, but they introduced a car with 3x3 seating and everybody went ga-ga over it. It was like when Honda introduced the 1999 Ody. Everybody forgot about the Stream.
So Honda went back to the drawing board and came up with the FR-V. Like the Nissan design, it uses a 3x3 seating configuration (rather than the 2x3x2 from the Stream). The FR-V takes the design and makes the middle seat in the rear row more flexible.
When I think comparisons, I suggest the FR-V is kinda like a chop-top Element. The FR-V would probably compete with the Element (price-wise) if they brought it here.
It's more likely the Fit/Jazz is the one headed our way.
FWIW, I doubt very much that NA buyers would see a significant advantage in this kind of seating. It's something that the Europeans loved, but we'd probably never warm up to.
On the other hand, Mazda and Mercedes Benz are bringing over the first MPVs sold in the US... if they catch on, the rest of the European MPV market will come here along with the three-abreast models.
Of course, Honda will be a few years later than everyone else.
Honda's own Civic Wagon was pretty much in line with what they're selling as MPVs now. The original Odyssey was bigger, but similar to what is being proposed here. Both are currently living on the "where-are-they-now?" lists.
The Civic Wagon morphed into the CR-V and that vehicle has taken off. It sells better than the Accord wagon, the Civic wagon, and original Ody combined.
The MPV might make it here to the US, but I have serious doubts it will amount to anything more than a niche vehicle. Canada, where they tend to purchase smaller vehicles, might be a more receptive market, but still not a great one.
The most noteworthy feature of the Fiat Multipla isn't the seating arrangement. It's the bizarro styling that makes an Aztek look subdued.
Somehow, I can't see Americans going for three-abreast seating. Three adults up front would be encourage a feeling of claustrophobia (especially three American-sized adults), while concerns over air bag deployment encourage parents to keep younger children (who could fit up front) in the back seat anyway.
Great idea. If you look, the middle seat in most cars is so uncomfortalbe, even on large cars. Try the LS430, even a Suburban or a Nissan Titan, that middle seat is "the hump" you have to sit on, not a fun place to be.
The Sienna van has a nice feature where you can offset it. The Expedition has 3 individual seats like in that picture, which IMO is the best arrangement.
My brother lives in Brazil and has a Citroen Xsara Picasso that has the 3+3 setup. The thing looks like an egg but it's extremely comfortable yet manages to be compact.
I like 3 in the 2nd row, anyway. Not sure I'd use the front/middle seat much, if at all. But have it fold down into a huge arm rest/center console and I'd be happy.
Those look like the face bags that are common in Europe. Basically they rely on having seat belts being used in conjunction with the bags.
US laws require full-passive restraints, i.e. completely lazy people are basically the expectation, so the air bag has to protect the driver even if the seat belt is not worn.
So we will likely see a different drive air bag, at least. Perhaps even both will be different. The Deville covers the entire field of view, basically.
does that Fiat Multipla have? In the picture it looks fine, but I don't have any reference of scale. If those individual seats are Chevy Tracker or Chevette-sized, then it's going to be useless in my book. If they're more like Intrepid, Regal, Taurus, etc buckets, then we might be getting somewhere!
Thanks for the pics. I figured it would have to be something like that, but had never seen a description or images. IIRC, pick-ups with bench front row use a different design. Don't quote me on that, though.
I like it - check the pic where the middle front seat is offset, farther back. You offset the shoulders and end up with more room than you thought you had.
They must slide independently. And it also folds flat to act as a huge center console.
Check out this detail - the outer edges are fabric to act as armrests, the middle has a hard cover. Slap a laptop on there and let the kids watch DVDs or play Need for Speed.
back in the late 60's and early-mid 70's. There were individual, fairly large buckets on either side and a fixed center section. In Chrysler's case though, the buckets were larger and the center part was pretty narrow, so I never really got it.
The center seat on that FR-V looks a bit smaller than the outer sections, and the whole setup still isn't going to work for larger people. Put a decent-sized adult in that center section, and his shoulders are going to be squeezed between the two outboard seats. And with 3 large adults up front, all those seats are going to be all the way back anyway, so the backrests are going to line up.
They use midgets in those photographs, so that it appears bigger than it really is! >:-P
in a goofy sort of way, I kinda like it. It would be interesting to see how it does here.
And yeah, in all fairness, I don't think there IS any such thing as a vehicle that can seat 3 people across up front in comfort. That pretty much went out the window with downsizing, which moved the tranny hump further into the passenger cabin, and often increased its size, and the split bench seat, which makes the center position inhabitable. While most FWD cars don't have a tranny hump (Chrysler's LH cars have one), most of them still don't have the shoulder room, or the dash is too close, etc.
The typical straight bench seat, full-sized, pre-downsized car of the late 50's, 60's, or 70's could do it, but then you'd run into a serious problem if you had a short driver and tall passengers!
So in all seriousness, the FR-V probably isn't any worse than any other attempt at 3-across front seating!
It may hold six people but almost no extra luggage space. Look at the tiny length behind the rear doors.
So this will hold six people and almost no luggage, or five people and almost no luggage, or four people and still almost no luggage, or two or three people and then you may get some luggage space by folding two or three of the rear seats.
This may fit European tastes(???), but it's kind of in no man's land in the US.
what kind of power is this FR-V going to have? And what kind of load capacity? Today, even most full-sized cars only have a 900-1000 lb load capacity. So essentially, you put 6 166.67 lb people on board, with no luggage, and you're at the limit. And I'm sure that's going to do some pretty horrible things to acceleration and fuel economy.
Granted, loading up any vehicle is going to hurt acceleration/fuel economy, but it always seems to hurt the most fuel-efficient, torqueless ones the most.
Well, they do have the diesel to deal with the torqueless and fuel efficient question.
I think it's one of those great vehicles that we should like, but won't buy. As posted earlier, we've tried to market this kind of vehicle in the past and it hasn't worked out.
This is basically a wide Mini Cooper. I can't imagine three across being all that comfortable in a vehicle this compact, and it is hard to believe there would be much luggage space, even with part of the rear seats down.
does the FR-V have? Consumer Reports once said that you really needed at least 57 inches of shoulder room to have comfortable 3-across seating. Of course, that was also back when the sides of cars didn't curve in nearly so much, B-pillars weren't as thick (or were non-existent in many cars) etc.
IIRC, cars like the Mitsubishi Expo and Nissan Axxess, while they maximized space efficiency, they still didn't try to push the boundaries of their market segment. That is, if what they were based on was a 4-passenger car, what you ended up with was just a slightly roomier 4-passenger car with a lot more versatility and luggage room. And again, they really had no more power than the smaller vehicles in their class, so you ended up with something that had much more versatility, but if you tried to maximize that versatility by loading it to its GVWR, you became a death trap on the highway!
The Honda Civic wagon was an excellent example of this. It was an incredibly roomy little car, but in expanding that interior volume, they just didn't do enough to beef it up. One of my co-workers had one. I rode in it a couple of times. To get an American car to be that loose and willowy, I think you'd have to find something like an old mid-70's GM 4-door hardtop, and then cut the roof off! I think his was a '91. Now a '91 Civic couldn't get out of its own way in normal, sedan form! So making it into a wagon only made it worse. And by making it so inviting, with that large cargo volume, they were just asking for the little sucker to be overloaded and broken.
Something like the FR-V, however, seems to be a different step to me. It's taking something the size of a 4-passenger car, and trying to turn it into a 6-passenger car. There might be a market for it, I dunno. But Badgerfan's right. It might hold 6 people, but it's NOT gonna hold their luggage too!
I know the last time I got 6 people in a car at one time, it was my '89 Gran Fury. Lessee, I guess I was around 190, one of my friends was around 190, the chunky one was around 240 (and that's being nice!), two of the others were around 140, and another was maybe 160.
So, that's 1070 lb right there. Now granted, that's not an everyday occurence! And no, we weren't comfortable...that car had the legroom for it, but not the shoulder room (it was a compact when that platform was first introduced). And the tranny/driveshaft hump, while small by Ford standards, were still more intrusive than on a "true" full-sized Chrysler.
if memory serves me correctly, were were doing something stupid. This was around the time the Blair Witch Project came out. Well, one of the guys, (one of the 140 lb ones) had a little drug/alcohol problem. And when he got messed up (he'd often do it on the job...he was an assistant manager at one of the pizza joints where I worked. And "joint" somehow fits here...) he could be really susceptible to pranks, and easily fooled. Well, we went out to this government cornfield that was way back in the woods, near where I used to live when I was a kid. The idea was for all of us to go walking through it, and I'd make up some bogus story about the experiments that had gone on back here, how they were trying to grow supersized corn to help fight starvation, but the rats got into it, and then the snakes ate the rats and grew to enormous proportions, and how as a child, my dog ran off into those fields and never come back, stuff like that. All the while, my buddies were going to just drop off, one by one, quietly disappearing, until it was just me and him left.
Looking back it was pretty stupid I guess, but hey, there really isn't much else to do that late on a Saturday, after we closed up the store! ;-)
I guess you couldn't do any Blair Witch reenactments with your 5 drinking buddies from the pizza place if you had to take any luggage (extra beer?) with you.
Well, that rules out a significant demographic! ;-)
Honda – UK website has some pictures. Vehicles like this make more sense in Europe and Asia simply because of their needs. It might do well in Canada as well. As far as US market is concerned, it may be seen as being too small to carry six people. So, how about taking the front middle seat off and replace with a center console. That might work!
As far as interior measurements (inches) go, here are some from Honda’s Japanese website (FR-V is sold as “Edix”). For comparison (since not all details are available), I have put corresponding numbers for CR-V in parentheses. Exterior Length: 169 (174) Width: 71 (70) Height: 64 (67) Wheelbase: 105.5 (103.1) Curb Weight: 3100-3200 lb (3250-3350 lb)
Interior Length: 74 (72) measured from dash to second row backrest Width: 60 (59)
So, Compared to CR-V, Edix/FR-V appears to be… Shorter (outside) Longer (inside) Wider (inside and outside) Lower (outside) Lighter
And has a longer wheelbase.
As far as pricing is concerned, based on base models (in Japan), Edix/FR-V is 10% cheaper than FR-V. BTW, after I posted the above numbers, I found some measurements for Edix/FR-V from Honda’s Japanese website (here). The numbers are in mm.
I seriously do wish they made an AWD coupe or sedan to compete with the STi and Evo, though - I don't know why they haven't shown more interest in WRC competition - that seems like such a Japanese domestic sport.
I'll be getting one of those cars in the Spring, and certainly wish that Honda was in the pool.
but forget WRC, "drifting" is the latest and greatest in Japan! They do have the S2000 for that - I wonder how well suited it is. At least it has the mandatory RWD.
Honda today is Toyota in the year 1992 - just about to make the big leap to an entirely centrist model line in order to substantially increase sales volume at the expense of the 10% enthusiasts that were in their buyer mix at the time. GAWD! I do hope Honda does not take the same road just to gain sales. It is what the stockholders love, but I would have to cross Honda off the list along with (increasingly) Toyota.
I could see an SH-AWD four-door (or two-door) type-R Civic to go up against the likes of STi/Evo, that would even probably beat their prices by a thou or two. The question I have is where they would get the engine. They just don't like that thar forced induction...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Comments
Makes sense, a lot of manufacturers have a slot beneath their Civic-level car.
Hook 'em while they're young, too. This would bring in the 16-25 year olds.
-juice
Engine displacing at least 1.5 is definitely needed, and in a light car like Fit (about 2250 lb), 110 HP can translate to acceptable performance, and excellent fuel economy (I suspect 40 mpg or better, combined).
I did say 16-25.
-juice
Then came Nissan.
Actually, I forget whether it was Nissan or Renault, but they introduced a car with 3x3 seating and everybody went ga-ga over it. It was like when Honda introduced the 1999 Ody. Everybody forgot about the Stream.
So Honda went back to the drawing board and came up with the FR-V. Like the Nissan design, it uses a 3x3 seating configuration (rather than the 2x3x2 from the Stream). The FR-V takes the design and makes the middle seat in the rear row more flexible.
When I think comparisons, I suggest the FR-V is kinda like a chop-top Element. The FR-V would probably compete with the Element (price-wise) if they brought it here.
It's more likely the Fit/Jazz is the one headed our way.
Here's a few good pics of the FR-V/Edix for anyone trying to understand what I was talking about with respect to the seating.
http://www.channel4.com/4car/gallery/H/honda/fr-v_page_8.html
FWIW, I doubt very much that NA buyers would see a significant advantage in this kind of seating. It's something that the Europeans loved, but we'd probably never warm up to.
Of course, Honda will be a few years later than everyone else.
Honda's own Civic Wagon was pretty much in line with what they're selling as MPVs now. The original Odyssey was bigger, but similar to what is being proposed here. Both are currently living on the "where-are-they-now?" lists.
The Civic Wagon morphed into the CR-V and that vehicle has taken off. It sells better than the Accord wagon, the Civic wagon, and original Ody combined.
The MPV might make it here to the US, but I have serious doubts it will amount to anything more than a niche vehicle. Canada, where they tend to purchase smaller vehicles, might be a more receptive market, but still not a great one.
Somehow, I can't see Americans going for three-abreast seating. Three adults up front would be encourage a feeling of claustrophobia (especially three American-sized adults), while concerns over air bag deployment encourage parents to keep younger children (who could fit up front) in the back seat anyway.
Great idea. If you look, the middle seat in most cars is so uncomfortalbe, even on large cars. Try the LS430, even a Suburban or a Nissan Titan, that middle seat is "the hump" you have to sit on, not a fun place to be.
The Sienna van has a nice feature where you can offset it. The Expedition has 3 individual seats like in that picture, which IMO is the best arrangement.
My brother lives in Brazil and has a Citroen Xsara Picasso that has the 3+3 setup. The thing looks like an egg but it's extremely comfortable yet manages to be compact.
I like 3 in the 2nd row, anyway. Not sure I'd use the front/middle seat much, if at all. But have it fold down into a huge arm rest/center console and I'd be happy.
-juice
I guess some form of passive protection is required for all front passengers, so we can expect something similar if those make it to the US.
-juice
Those look like the face bags that are common in Europe. Basically they rely on having seat belts being used in conjunction with the bags.
US laws require full-passive restraints, i.e. completely lazy people are basically the expectation, so the air bag has to protect the driver even if the seat belt is not worn.
So we will likely see a different drive air bag, at least. Perhaps even both will be different. The Deville covers the entire field of view, basically.
-juice
I'm still a Crew Cab 4x4 and Subaru STi/Mustang Cobra buyer, but I was just wondering.
They must slide independently. And it also folds flat to act as a huge center console.
Check out this detail - the outer edges are fabric to act as armrests, the middle has a hard cover. Slap a laptop on there and let the kids watch DVDs or play Need for Speed.
It's clever and space efficient. Thumbs up.
-juice
I'm not sure what I'd call it. Tall wagon almost implies the ground clearance of car-based SUVs, so that's not quite it, either.
I might just call it a multi-purpose vehicle (MPV), though Mazda stole that name for their van (go figure).
-juice
The center seat on that FR-V looks a bit smaller than the outer sections, and the whole setup still isn't going to work for larger people. Put a decent-sized adult in that center section, and his shoulders are going to be squeezed between the two outboard seats. And with 3 large adults up front, all those seats are going to be all the way back anyway, so the backrests are going to line up.
They use midgets in those photographs, so that it appears bigger than it really is! >:-P
There are families of 4 or 5 buying minivans, which is overkill. FR-V could easily serve their needs. The 6th seat would be for occasional use only.
It's cute, compact, efficient, and has several clever features, seating 6 in a foot print smaller than an Accord's.
I'm sure it would fail miserably in the US market.
-juice
And yeah, in all fairness, I don't think there IS any such thing as a vehicle that can seat 3 people across up front in comfort. That pretty much went out the window with downsizing, which moved the tranny hump further into the passenger cabin, and often increased its size, and the split bench seat, which makes the center position inhabitable. While most FWD cars don't have a tranny hump (Chrysler's LH cars have one), most of them still don't have the shoulder room, or the dash is too close, etc.
The typical straight bench seat, full-sized, pre-downsized car of the late 50's, 60's, or 70's could do it, but then you'd run into a serious problem if you had a short driver and tall passengers!
So in all seriousness, the FR-V probably isn't any worse than any other attempt at 3-across front seating!
So this will hold six people and almost no luggage, or five people and almost no luggage, or four people and still almost no luggage, or two or three people and then you may get some luggage space by folding two or three of the rear seats.
This may fit European tastes(???), but it's kind of in no man's land in the US.
I think the Ford 500 has the biggest trunk of any sedan in the US, I'd be willing to bet the FR-V would offer more space with 4 passengers.
Probably by far.
-juice
Granted, loading up any vehicle is going to hurt acceleration/fuel economy, but it always seems to hurt the most fuel-efficient, torqueless ones the most.
I think it's one of those great vehicles that we should like, but won't buy. As posted earlier, we've tried to market this kind of vehicle in the past and it hasn't worked out.
varmint Sep 24, 2004 6:09pm
IIRC, cars like the Mitsubishi Expo and Nissan Axxess, while they maximized space efficiency, they still didn't try to push the boundaries of their market segment. That is, if what they were based on was a 4-passenger car, what you ended up with was just a slightly roomier 4-passenger car with a lot more versatility and luggage room. And again, they really had no more power than the smaller vehicles in their class, so you ended up with something that had much more versatility, but if you tried to maximize that versatility by loading it to its GVWR, you became a death trap on the highway!
The Honda Civic wagon was an excellent example of this. It was an incredibly roomy little car, but in expanding that interior volume, they just didn't do enough to beef it up. One of my co-workers had one. I rode in it a couple of times. To get an American car to be that loose and willowy, I think you'd have to find something like an old mid-70's GM 4-door hardtop, and then cut the roof off! I think his was a '91. Now a '91 Civic couldn't get out of its own way in normal, sedan form! So making it into a wagon only made it worse. And by making it so inviting, with that large cargo volume, they were just asking for the little sucker to be overloaded and broken.
Something like the FR-V, however, seems to be a different step to me. It's taking something the size of a 4-passenger car, and trying to turn it into a 6-passenger car. There might be a market for it, I dunno. But Badgerfan's right. It might hold 6 people, but it's NOT gonna hold their luggage too!
It's like they tease you but you have to go see it in person. Hopefully others will have better coverage.
-juice
It'll carry the 200 lb dad, the 140 lb mom, and maybe 3 kids averaging 80 lbs.
That's 580 lbs, payload should allow for maybe 300 more for cargo.
Honda's Element has 675 lbs payload and it's bigger. If anything that's the one begging to be overloaded.
-juice
So, that's 1070 lb right there. Now granted, that's not an everyday occurence! And no, we weren't comfortable...that car had the legroom for it, but not the shoulder room (it was a compact when that platform was first introduced). And the tranny/driveshaft hump, while small by Ford standards, were still more intrusive than on a "true" full-sized Chrysler.
For that a Crew Cab would be best, and those have 1200lb+ payloads.
-juice
Looking back it was pretty stupid I guess, but hey, there really isn't much else to do that late on a Saturday, after we closed up the store! ;-)
Well, that rules out a significant demographic! ;-)
-juice
As far as interior measurements (inches) go, here are some from Honda’s Japanese website (FR-V is sold as “Edix”). For comparison (since not all details are available), I have put corresponding numbers for CR-V in parentheses.
Exterior
Length: 169 (174)
Width: 71 (70)
Height: 64 (67)
Wheelbase: 105.5 (103.1)
Curb Weight: 3100-3200 lb (3250-3350 lb)
Interior
Length: 74 (72) measured from dash to second row backrest
Width: 60 (59)
So, Compared to CR-V, Edix/FR-V appears to be…
Shorter (outside)
Longer (inside)
Wider (inside and outside)
Lower (outside)
Lighter
And has a longer wheelbase.
As far as pricing is concerned, based on base models (in Japan), Edix/FR-V is 10% cheaper than FR-V. BTW, after I posted the above numbers, I found some measurements for Edix/FR-V from Honda’s Japanese website (here). The numbers are in mm.
They probably cram the engine bay more. The CR-V has that blunt nose for the SUV look, even though it's car-based.
They sell a 3-row CR-V in parts of Asia, I think one model is a 10 seater!
-juice
http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2003/jun/06/opinion/20030606o- pi3.html
And I don't mean just in Manila, look at CAFE (heaviest trucks exempt) right here in the US.
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'll be getting one of those cars in the Spring, and certainly wish that Honda was in the pool.
Honda today is Toyota in the year 1992 - just about to make the big leap to an entirely centrist model line in order to substantially increase sales volume at the expense of the 10% enthusiasts that were in their buyer mix at the time. GAWD! I do hope Honda does not take the same road just to gain sales. It is what the stockholders love, but I would have to cross Honda off the list along with (increasingly) Toyota.
I could see an SH-AWD four-door (or two-door) type-R Civic to go up against the likes of STi/Evo, that would even probably beat their prices by a thou or two. The question I have is where they would get the engine. They just don't like that thar forced induction...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)