Honda had a 2-page ad in the USA today last month touting their safety plan. basically, they committed to having every car in the lineup (even Civic) with all the available safety gear standard, inc. ABS and side bags/curtains. It will be a staged implementation, since for some cars they need to wait for a redesign (like the Civic).
The new Ody has it all, the Accord had it on uplevel models so it's just a matter of up-condenting the lower line models.
Accord gets side bags and curtains (as well as the ABS it already had) on all trim levels for '05, which is just arriving at dealerships in my area right now...
OTOH, one thing Honda has never used a whole lot of is stability control, and I still don't see a lot of mention of that. I guess it is part of their eventual safety strategy though.
The Scion tC has knee airbags now...I wonder if Honda will consider increasing the air bag count beyond two fronts and two sides.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Do we really need knee airbags? I laughed at it when Kia offered it. Airbags were primarily meant to be “SRS” (supplementary restraint system), not necessarily to provide cushion. Would much rather prefer a cabin that keeps its shape as much as possible.
Regarding VSA, I suspect all light trucks will have it fairly soon. 2005 CR-V will also have it standard in all trim levels, as would Odyssey. As of now, I believe, Pilot has it only in the EX-L trim. VSA could become standard in Accord with MMC next year, and I wonder if Honda will offer it in redesigned Civic (now that they are offering VSA even in their economy car Fit). But, I think passive safety features could do it all.
pedals are a significant one. I am surprised that the '05 CRV will have VSA on all trim levels but Pilot, the more expensive and large one of the two, still does not.
Knee airbags: never knew anyone had even had this idea until Scion came up with it. Can't imagine if it would make much difference.
Like the idea of those anti-whiplash headrests that mercedes has that move to support your head when a collision is detected. Maybe Honda could come up with some of those.
Accord, along with every other single midsize sedan out there that was tested by NHTSA for '04, scores poorly in side impacts unless equipped with the side air curtains. Some like Legacy (the old one I am sure) and Sonata even score poorly or marginally with side air bags or curtains installed. It would be nice to see more effort paid to improving structural rigidity in crashes, as robert mentioned above, than to this race to have the most airbags.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Structural rigidity is perhaps a part of the issue that weight gain is about. Curtain airbags improve upon it, but I wonder, for how long (as vehicles continue to gain weight, hence momentum).
Pilot may get everything standard with MMC refresh. For CR-V, the time is now.
So why doesn't Honda issue a recall or send a safety letter of some sort to CRV owners about possible engine fires?? This is an issue, an issue you are trying your best to sweep under the rug... Consumers have a right to know.. Honda needs to tell the truth and inform the public..
Heavily discounted doesn't mean less reliable or lower quality... One reason why Honda's run is over is because more and more consumers are finding out you don't need to pay the premium price of a Honda to get reliability and quality anylonger....
the issue of the CRV fires is not robertsmx's to sweep under the rug, it is Honda's.
"more and more consumers are finding out you don't need to pay the premium price of a Honda to get reliability and quality anylonger...."
In all this talk, I have finally lost track - are we talking about Honda's run of enthusiast-popular vehicles being over, or Honda's business profitability? If it is the latter, Honda maintains some of the highest per-unit profits and lowest time-in-inventory of any automaker in the industry, so I don't think the business run is over. Honda is certainly not the only manufacturer turning out reliable cars, no, but the quality is there, and individual preference being what it is, I don't fear too much for the future of their mainstream products.
Now as to whether they will remain an enthusiasts' brand? I don't see that as being as likely, no, for the simple reason that they are expanding into a high-volume, mass-consumer brand, and as such their vehicles need to cater more towards the middle 80% of the spectrum than to us 10% of enthusiasts here at one end.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It seems after reading this article that Honda will most likely issue or be forced to issue a recall. They can't sweep this under the rug for much longer. This could seriously effect Honda's safety reputation.
"Honda has been working to notify its dealers and service technicians about ways to avoid the problem since mid-July, but continuing reports of new incidents draw "into question the effectiveness of the service communication," NHTSA said in the official notice of investigation."
Many of us questioned "the effectiveness of the service communication" since day one. We predicted it would be inadequate, and that the outcome proved us out is absolutely no surprise.
Although I still think that closing the investigation so quickly with such a lip service "resolution" to the problem demonstrated questionable judgment on the part of the NHTSA, I'm glad to see that they finally came to their senses and reopened it. Now that the NHTSA has put the ball back in Honda's court, I'm certain that they'll intensify their efforts to determine why the oil leak is causing a fire. Which is the answer that they owed existing and potential CR-V owners in the first place.
Oh yes I agree, discounts do not necessarily mean lower quality. My point was why should a consumer pay full or close to full price for a Honda, when you can get more bang for the buck elsewhere.
And sometimes the reliability factor is the same, it is just the perception of higher quality. The NA Hondas are not on the same par as the Japanese versions, therefore the quality levels are closer to the domestics.
I am/was considering a ’05 EXL Pilot, of course hoping the transmission issues have all been cleared up. But looks like the prices have jumped significantly on the ‘05, like 4% $1250 bucks. I guess if you’ve been voted the best, you need to take advantage of it.
"As far as the NHTSA reopening the investigation...Recalls have to have a cure. I can't wait to see what the remedy turns out to be."
I for one am NOT recommending a recall until the true problem and an effective solution are identified. A lip service recall is no better than the lip service solution that Honda has offered so far. However, the NHTSA is no longer corroborating Honda's position about mechanic error. In fact, they've escalated the inquiry to their most serious level. Clearly they're now demanding a more substantial and effective solution, given that the "service communication" has proven to have very limited effectiveness.
I don't know why Honda is having such a difficult time in identifying why the oil leak is causing a fire, but they'd better figure out something very soon before their reputation takes irreparable damage. Just because Honda can't figure out why the oil leak is causing a fire doesn't relieve them of the responsibility of finding the cause and correcting it.
I read a couple years ago that after the advent of air bags the incidence of knee injuries sky rocketed, caused by people sliding under or being pinned by the dash in a high-speed accident.
Analysis showed that the air bags had nothing to do with causing knee injuries, as was initially rumored. Instead, the incidence and severity of knee injuries was about the same as before, but since many of the injured died of other injuries, the knee injuries were not recorded. Seems the air bags saved enough people to expose the knee injuries as another problem area.
"Clearly they're now demanding a more substantial and effective solution, given that the "service communication" has proven to have very limited effectiveness."
You do know that this communication has only been sent to Honda dealers, right? The investigation missed the publication deadline for the oil-changing industry. They will be (officially) notified with the October release of the trade publication.
So, the full impact of the original solution has not been measured.
However, the NHTSA is no longer corroborating Honda's position about mechanic error.
Where did you read that? The link I read just said they were reopening the investigation. If it still turns out the mechanics aren't performing the correct procedure, I don't see how they can effect a recall. Especially if it is found to be happening after the first oil change. Talk about a limited recall.
"Honda has been working to notify its dealers and service technicians about ways to avoid the problem since mid-July, but continuing reports of new incidents draw "into question the effectiveness of the service communication," NHTSA said in the official notice of investigation."
I don't see how you can interpret this quote any other way.
That quote suggests that the NHTSA no longer believes in the fix (education alone). It does not suggest that they do not accept Honda's findings for the cause (Tech error).
"That quote suggests that the NHTSA no longer believes in the fix (education alone). It does not suggest that they do not accept Honda's findings for the cause (Tech error)."
Frankly, I disagree. Combined with the quote below, I believe that there's a strong inclination towards something other than tech error.
"The new inquiry puts the focus back on the manufacturer. Called an "engineering analysis," the probe is the most serious level of inquiry conducted by NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigation. Such investigations lead to vehicle recalls roughly 60 to 80 percent of the time, an agency spokeswoman said."
"Engineering analysis" indicates that they're going to look once again at the vehicle's design. If they were still confident that "tech error" was the problem, they wouldn't be looking at the vehicle again.
How about... the communication hasn't been enough to prevent occurence. This, to me, does not indicate a shift in blame from one side to another. It is as neutral as it possibly could be, at this time.
As someone that is paid to investigate security incidents, I was surprised to see NHTSA basically use the Honda investigation for their investigation. Most incidents are not single fold, almost all of them have other factors. Be it the deer than ran in front of the car, the grease on the road, or the tech that caused a leak.
The problem with the NHTSA is that they are ran by government officials, and government officials are most often lawyers, and lawyers are trained to be re-active not pro active.
Risk managers look at things in a different light, they don't think of what happens after someone has an oil leak, they look at what will an oil leak cause. My view on this has nothing to do with me not liking Honda, it has everything to do with what can happen when we blind our eyes.
"How about... the communication hasn't been enough to prevent occurence. This, to me, does not indicate a shift in blame from one side to another. It is as neutral as it possibly could be, at this time."
An "engineering analysis" is performed by the NHTSA when they suspect that a vehicle has a safety related defect. It is considered the prelude to a recall, which is the outcome over 70% of the time when such an analysis is initiated. The fact that they have shifted their focus back to an investigation of possible defects in the vehicle itself clearly indicates that they are no longer satisfied with the "tech error" explanation.
But if they investigate and find that the only thing that causes the fires is "sticky" seals, then it still goes back to the techs. The tech's job is to remove the old gasket.
I don't think it would make any sense to require Honda cover for incompetence. Any one know of any other recalls that are the result of improper maintenance?
"But if they investigate and find that the only thing that causes the fires is "sticky" seals, then it still goes back to the techs. The tech's job is to remove the old gasket."
They were already at that point before launching the engineering analysis. The engineering analysis is focused on the design of the vehicle, to determine if safety related defects exist. As stated earlier, in over 70% of the cases, they find one and a recall is instituted.
It's always possible that they won't find such a defect, but the track record of the engineering analysis shows that it's more likely that they will than they won't.
That doesn't mean they have found any new information to disprove the "tech" theory. It just means they are looking a little deeper. I don't understand why they didn't look deeper in the first place though. I mean these are FIRES. Geez what were they thinking in the first place?
I believe it means that they're looking a LOT deeper, as the majority of investigations that reach this level result in a recall. The fact that they've launched the engineering analysis means that they've already made the determination that there's sufficient cause to suspect a safety related design defect. Which to me demonstrates that they've moved beyond the "tech error" theory.
Why didn't they look deeper in the first place? That's been my question since this whole mess started.
Let us move on. NHTSA and Honda apparently know about the problem, and we know about each others argument on the same (having repeated it at least 3-4 times).
the rate of simple human error is roughly the same across the broad spectrum of dealership techs (a decent assumption), theremustbe something especially difficult about changing the oil filter on the CRV. Either that or there must be something about the design of the engine that leads to fires when the filter is improperly installed, that DOES NOT lead to fires on other models when those filters are improperly installed. That seems like a pretty logical conclusion to me. But that is just me.
Either way, maybe this time the NHTSA investigation will finally get to the root of it all and give us an answer. But it is sure getting a little old reading pages and pages of speculation about it here.
Is it important for "Honda's run"? Yes, I think so. It will be more important if a recall is issued and it makes national headlines, the way some big recalls do (like on the early Focus, more recently the Vue's rear suspension). If the GM and Ford supporters posting at Edmunds are right, it will not make the news because it is not a domestic brand. If it does not, it won't affect sales much. Even if it does, it may not affect sales much - witness how little the Explorer's sales dropped even during the worst of the Firestone debacle.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I would take a pattern of failures for the Honda faithful to give up on them. They have a long-term hard-earned rep for quality and reliability and that's why even engine fires are merely seen as a hiccup by Honda fans.
Based on what I've seen and read over the 4-5 years, I think Honda is getting a bit sloppy. They are not as good as they once were, either/or with higher volume there are simply more "points-of-failures".
More often the first service, but I'm not sure that all fires happened after the first oil change, did they?
Based on all that I have read, it suggests "first oil change" only. That, somehow to me, doesn't bode well as a design issue, but more along the lines of the oil/OEM part or even assembly line issue. And of course, if a tech works on my car (oil change, brake pad change or any kind of service), I would expect the person to do the job done right. There is no excuse for sloppy work, on the production line, or during maintenance.
Growing pains, perhaps. They do more volume and can't possibly pay the sort of attention they used to.
I think that someone that got 150k plus miles out of a Civic in college will be buying Hondas or Acura for the rest of their life as long as they keep getting at least 100k out of them.
In fact I think they're more willing to cut Honda some slack when they do make mistakes.
from a reputation standpoint. I don't think there have been 100 yet out of hundreds of thousands of CR-V's built. I don't see how you can hold that against Honda. It's not even a hiccup. It's more akin to stepping on an ant.
"there must be something especially difficult about changing the oil filter on the CRV."
Possibly (maybe even likely), but that doesn't excuse the Tech. Are they going to say, "It was too hard to get the gasket off, so I left it there." Is that acceptable?
As far as we can tell, this issue cannot happen unless the Tech fails to complete the oil change correctly. So I see absolutely no reason why they shouldn't start the fixing process by addressing the Tech.
It may go beyond that point. I think Juice was calling it "fault tolerance" earlier. More of that may be required. But we really don't know, yet. There are too many unanswered questions.
Comments
The new Ody has it all, the Accord had it on uplevel models so it's just a matter of up-condenting the lower line models.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Another mag (same ownership) picked the Legacy GT over the TSX, so it may be a matter of tastes. The Subie also got the JCOTY award by a wide margin.
Both are selling well so...
-juice
OTOH, one thing Honda has never used a whole lot of is stability control, and I still don't see a lot of mention of that. I guess it is part of their eventual safety strategy though.
The Scion tC has knee airbags now...I wonder if Honda will consider increasing the air bag count beyond two fronts and two sides.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In fact the Kia Sportage had them and still obtained weak safety scores, so I don't think knee air bags are as of yet seen as very beneficial.
-juice
Regarding VSA, I suspect all light trucks will have it fairly soon. 2005 CR-V will also have it standard in all trim levels, as would Odyssey. As of now, I believe, Pilot has it only in the EX-L trim. VSA could become standard in Accord with MMC next year, and I wonder if Honda will offer it in redesigned Civic (now that they are offering VSA even in their economy car Fit). But, I think passive safety features could do it all.
-juice
Knee airbags: never knew anyone had even had this idea until Scion came up with it. Can't imagine if it would make much difference.
Like the idea of those anti-whiplash headrests that mercedes has that move to support your head when a collision is detected. Maybe Honda could come up with some of those.
Accord, along with every other single midsize sedan out there that was tested by NHTSA for '04, scores poorly in side impacts unless equipped with the side air curtains. Some like Legacy (the old one I am sure) and Sonata even score poorly or marginally with side air bags or curtains installed. It would be nice to see more effort paid to improving structural rigidity in crashes, as robert mentioned above, than to this race to have the most airbags.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Pilot may get everything standard with MMC refresh. For CR-V, the time is now.
The engineers need to know the problem before they can come up with an answer. It doesn't work the other way around.
"more and more consumers are finding out you don't need to pay the premium price of a Honda to get reliability and quality anylonger...."
In all this talk, I have finally lost track - are we talking about Honda's run of enthusiast-popular vehicles being over, or Honda's business profitability? If it is the latter, Honda maintains some of the highest per-unit profits and lowest time-in-inventory of any automaker in the industry, so I don't think the business run is over. Honda is certainly not the only manufacturer turning out reliable cars, no, but the quality is there, and individual preference being what it is, I don't fear too much for the future of their mainstream products.
Now as to whether they will remain an enthusiasts' brand? I don't see that as being as likely, no, for the simple reason that they are expanding into a high-volume, mass-consumer brand, and as such their vehicles need to cater more towards the middle 80% of the spectrum than to us 10% of enthusiasts here at one end.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It seems after reading this article that Honda will most likely issue or be forced to issue a recall. They can't sweep this under the rug for much longer. This could seriously effect Honda's safety reputation.
Many of us questioned "the effectiveness of the service communication" since day one. We predicted it would be inadequate, and that the outcome proved us out is absolutely no surprise.
Although I still think that closing the investigation so quickly with such a lip service "resolution" to the problem demonstrated questionable judgment on the part of the NHTSA, I'm glad to see that they finally came to their senses and reopened it. Now that the NHTSA has put the ball back in Honda's court, I'm certain that they'll intensify their efforts to determine why the oil leak is causing a fire. Which is the answer that they owed existing and potential CR-V owners in the first place.
And sometimes the reliability factor is the same, it is just the perception of higher quality. The NA Hondas are not on the same par as the Japanese versions, therefore the quality levels are closer to the domestics.
I am/was considering a ’05 EXL Pilot, of course hoping the transmission issues have all been cleared up. But looks like the prices have jumped significantly on the ‘05, like 4% $1250 bucks. I guess if you’ve been voted the best, you need to take advantage of it.
As far as the NHTSA reopening the investigation...Recalls have to have a cure. I can't wait to see what the remedy turns out to be.
I for one am NOT recommending a recall until the true problem and an effective solution are identified. A lip service recall is no better than the lip service solution that Honda has offered so far. However, the NHTSA is no longer corroborating Honda's position about mechanic error. In fact, they've escalated the inquiry to their most serious level. Clearly they're now demanding a more substantial and effective solution, given that the "service communication" has proven to have very limited effectiveness.
I don't know why Honda is having such a difficult time in identifying why the oil leak is causing a fire, but they'd better figure out something very soon before their reputation takes irreparable damage. Just because Honda can't figure out why the oil leak is causing a fire doesn't relieve them of the responsibility of finding the cause and correcting it.
NHTSA - finally.
I'm surprised there is no mention of there being 2 part numbers for oil filters used on the CR-V. That information seems extremely relevant to me.
-juice
Analysis showed that the air bags had nothing to do with causing knee injuries, as was initially rumored. Instead, the incidence and severity of knee injuries was about the same as before, but since many of the injured died of other injuries, the knee injuries were not recorded. Seems the air bags saved enough people to expose the knee injuries as another problem area.
You do know that this communication has only been sent to Honda dealers, right? The investigation missed the publication deadline for the oil-changing industry. They will be (officially) notified with the October release of the trade publication.
So, the full impact of the original solution has not been measured.
Where did you read that? The link I read just said they were reopening the investigation. If it still turns out the mechanics aren't performing the correct procedure, I don't see how they can effect a recall. Especially if it is found to be happening after the first oil change. Talk about a limited recall.
-juice
"Honda has been working to notify its dealers and service technicians about ways to avoid the problem since mid-July, but continuing reports of new incidents draw "into question the effectiveness of the service communication," NHTSA said in the official notice of investigation."
I don't see how you can interpret this quote any other way.
Said it before and we shall see.
Frankly, I disagree. Combined with the quote below, I believe that there's a strong inclination towards something other than tech error.
"The new inquiry puts the focus back on the manufacturer. Called an "engineering analysis," the probe is the most serious level of inquiry conducted by NHTSA's Office of Defects Investigation. Such investigations lead to vehicle recalls roughly 60 to 80 percent of the time, an agency spokeswoman said."
"Engineering analysis" indicates that they're going to look once again at the vehicle's design. If they were still confident that "tech error" was the problem, they wouldn't be looking at the vehicle again.
How about... the communication hasn't been enough to prevent occurence. This, to me, does not indicate a shift in blame from one side to another. It is as neutral as it possibly could be, at this time.
The problem with the NHTSA is that they are ran by government officials, and government officials are most often lawyers, and lawyers are trained to be re-active not pro active.
Risk managers look at things in a different light, they don't think of what happens after someone has an oil leak, they look at what will an oil leak cause. My view on this has nothing to do with me not liking Honda, it has everything to do with what can happen when we blind our eyes.
An "engineering analysis" is performed by the NHTSA when they suspect that a vehicle has a safety related defect. It is considered the prelude to a recall, which is the outcome over 70% of the time when such an analysis is initiated. The fact that they have shifted their focus back to an investigation of possible defects in the vehicle itself clearly indicates that they are no longer satisfied with the "tech error" explanation.
I don't think it would make any sense to require Honda cover for incompetence. Any one know of any other recalls that are the result of improper maintenance?
They were already at that point before launching the engineering analysis. The engineering analysis is focused on the design of the vehicle, to determine if safety related defects exist. As stated earlier, in over 70% of the cases, they find one and a recall is instituted.
It's always possible that they won't find such a defect, but the track record of the engineering analysis shows that it's more likely that they will than they won't.
Why didn't they look deeper in the first place? That's been my question since this whole mess started.
True.
Honda's job is to design a vehicle that is reasonably easy to service.
How are they doing?
-juice
First time, or subsequent?
-juice
Likely just out of coincidence some happened later on.
-juice
Either way, maybe this time the NHTSA investigation will finally get to the root of it all and give us an answer. But it is sure getting a little old reading pages and pages of speculation about it here.
Is it important for "Honda's run"? Yes, I think so. It will be more important if a recall is issued and it makes national headlines, the way some big recalls do (like on the early Focus, more recently the Vue's rear suspension). If the GM and Ford supporters posting at Edmunds are right, it will not make the news because it is not a domestic brand. If it does not, it won't affect sales much. Even if it does, it may not affect sales much - witness how little the Explorer's sales dropped even during the worst of the Firestone debacle.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-juice
Based on what I've seen and read over the 4-5 years, I think Honda is getting a bit sloppy. They are not as good as they once were, either/or with higher volume there are simply more "points-of-failures".
Based on all that I have read, it suggests "first oil change" only. That, somehow to me, doesn't bode well as a design issue, but more along the lines of the oil/OEM part or even assembly line issue. And of course, if a tech works on my car (oil change, brake pad change or any kind of service), I would expect the person to do the job done right. There is no excuse for sloppy work, on the production line, or during maintenance.
I think that someone that got 150k plus miles out of a Civic in college will be buying Hondas or Acura for the rest of their life as long as they keep getting at least 100k out of them.
In fact I think they're more willing to cut Honda some slack when they do make mistakes.
It's fair, Honda earned that rep.
-juice
But I like the Forester XT a bit more. And I'd give a Mazda Tribute EXV6 a serious look even after what, 10 recalls/hiccups?
Takin the good with the bad...
The 2005 CR-V gets substantial improvements, 5 speed automatic, VSA, bigger rims, new models with more content, better mileage...
They'll bounce right back, watch.
-juice
Possibly (maybe even likely), but that doesn't excuse the Tech. Are they going to say, "It was too hard to get the gasket off, so I left it there." Is that acceptable?
As far as we can tell, this issue cannot happen unless the Tech fails to complete the oil change correctly. So I see absolutely no reason why they shouldn't start the fixing process by addressing the Tech.
It may go beyond that point. I think Juice was calling it "fault tolerance" earlier. More of that may be required. But we really don't know, yet. There are too many unanswered questions.
Likewise, as far as we can tell, this issue cannot happen unless the tech fails to complete the oil change correctly ON A CR-V.
I don't understand why people in here keep trying to simplify the issue by placing the blame strictly on the technician.
Bad technicians work on ALL VEHICLES. Not just the CR-V.
Things aren't always so simple.