Actually Honda has long been a leader in technological advances. Their car here in the states was the first to meet emissions regs without a catalytic. They were the first to bring variable valve technology over here in affordable, mass-produced cars.
Obviously, they are not the first in everything. But they have a remarkably high rate of innovation for a relatively small company. It has always been that way.
and the fires will continue as long as oil filters leak for whatever reason. Faulty oil filters, double gaskets, etc. Just because you're past your first oil change doens't mean you're past someone doing a double gasket on your filter.
I like the title of the MSN article:
"Warning to dealers hasn't stopped oil-change errors"
Believe it or not, that wouldn't surprise me in the least. If I was Jiffy Lube, I'd put a policy like that into effect so I don't end up with any liability claims. After all, if I'm Jiffy Lube, and am following the manufacturer's directions for changing the oil filter, I do NOT want to take the heat when the CR-V catches fire because so far Honda has managed to avoid liability.
Also wouldn't surprise me if some Honda dealers tell their customers to take their CR-Vs somewhere else to get their oil changed, so THEY don't have to pay out.
Whether the vehicle is prone to sticking gaskets or not, the Tech is responsible for checking to make sure it doesn't stick. If the car ends up with a stacked gasket, the Tech has failed. So, yeah, I think the oil-changers own some of the responsibility.
Now, when all the smoke clears (sorry, couldn't resist), we may find that there is a problem making the CR-V more prone than other vehicles. At that time, Honda must initiate a recall.
Until then, all Honda can do is keep investigating and do their best to ensure the Techs do their jobs.
I've yet to see them actually sell a car, you know, with the salesman walking the folks around their new ride - not much happening there at all, especially since Olds has gone away. I'm by there almost every day, sometimes 2-3 times - my wife works in the hospital behind the dealership -
They must have at least 20 Aleros dustin' and rustin'...
First, I never said anything about whether there is or is not a defect or design issue. I included that as a possiblility and stated that if one is found Honda would be responsible for taking action.
Second, since you are convinced there is a defect... Care to share what it is? Plenty of engineers have looked into it. What makes you so certain?
Any leak can lead to a fire. This is not unique to the CR-V.
"Of the many causes of fires in motor vehicles, oil leakage ranks among the highest."
Furthermore, I've had a grease monkey forget to replace the filler cap on my CR-V. Oil got sprayed all over the engine compartment. Should Honda be held responsible for not designing a self-closing oil filler tube?
If the Tech does their job properly, there should be no stacked or pinched gasket. So, I really don't see a problem with starting there.
I'm willing to bet the existence of the Pilot and CR-V seems odd to some Honda fans. As near as I can tell, Honda uses whatever technology gets the job done with the least number of drawbacks. Of course they have their priorities, like fuel economy and emissions, but I've never seen them neglect a technology.
I think it might look weird in a CRV or Element, but you are right it would look a lot less weird in a Pilot. Read the review last night of the Touareg TDI - $57K starting price????? The Pilot diesel would be an absolute steal by comparison.
OTOH, I highly doubt an Accord 2.2 CDI or whatever it is called would sell well at all. The 4-cyl Accord just gets too good mileage as it is, and there is a lot of anti-diesel sentiment out there on the roads of America...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is why I dislike Honda. They try to not tarnish their reputation for reliability that they'll place the blame on anyone they can but themselves. Take some responsibility Honda! And then people praise them when they recall or extend warranties because they're taking care of their customers. What a joke. Yeah only after the media gets a hold of it and starts reporting it.
If I had made a "narrow escape" from a Honda that burst into flames I would want to hear more from them than this dancing around that they're doing.
This is what a Volvo spokesperson said in response to someone's seat heater catching on fire.
"We haven't received any information about the S-60 having problems, but because people's lives are involved, we're treating the matter seriously," a ministry spokesman said, adding that Volvo recalled 13,403 cars of a different model in April last year after discovering they had flawed seat heaters.
Volvo's importer was apologetic.
"It was not the fault of the user," a spokesman for the company said. "It's an accident that should never have happened. We're terribly sorry."
(By the way, let me say I'm sure Volvo has many cases where they tried to avoid responsibility, they're like any other company. But saying it's not the user's fault and they take the blame for the incident is what I want to hear if my car catches on fire.)
"Someone please tell me why don't we even have traction control on accords, let alone vsa?"
Because you would now have an Acura on your hands. This is all Acura is, a Honda filled to the brim with options. Even the Corolla has VSA optional. Honda will have to do a lot more to their Acuras before they start offering equal options and lower price on their Hondas.
that's really NOT what Honda is saying. They are NOT blaming the user. They are blaming the techs, and I agree it looks suspicious and may be a result of a flawed design, but one thing they have not done is say it is peoples' own fault.
NHTSA is going to continue to monitor it. I wonder if any DIYers are having this problem.
Using a seat heater means flipping a switch - if the seat then turns into a barbecue that is clearly a defect in design. But here we are talking about third parties being involved (oil change techs), and there is absolutely no problem reported on any CRV until those techs do what they do.
BTW, has anyone had to make a ""narrow escape" from a Honda that burst into flames"? I thought there had been no injuries, or am I getting confused?
an alternate view: ""Someone please tell me why don't we even have traction control on accords, let alone vsa?"
Honda has chosen to spread around side curtain airbags instead, standard on even the cheapest Accords this year, and reputedly to be standard on Civics from MY '06 on. Many manufacturers are playing around with a mix on these various safety options, so Honda is no exception. ABS is mostly standard across the line now too, unlike Toyota and GM for instance. The only exceptions are the Civic DX/LX, and again that is expected to be rectified with the '06. The ABS/side curtain combo is only manufactured by Toyota on fully loaded Corollas at present - somewhat pricey. That may also change in the near future - we will see.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Diesel Accord - well I'd be interested in one (although I can't get past the looks of the current version) A proper (modern) diesel interests me greatly. Lots of torque AND great gas mileage. Also, throw in much greater longevity and durability than a gas engine.
It interests me enough to think about a Passat Wagon with a diesel motor, and I have no real love for VW.
I'm hoping more diesels will come down the pike from several brands. (I could be in a small minority though I guess)
For the first eight months of 2004, Honda's U.S. vehicle sales were roughly flat from a year ago. Toyota Motor Corp. (news - web sites), Japan's biggest automaker, was up 9 percent for the same period, while No. 3 Nissan, riding the launch of several new vehicles, was up 23 percent.
Looks like Nissan and Toyota are on a roll while Honda is struggling in North America. Could the transmission recall coupled with the CRV catching fire be the reason? Something to think about
When you look at how heavily some models were discounted compared to the incentives offered on Honda's you will realize that Honda is far from struggling. Toyota already has commercials here in the SE for a $750 rebate + 1.9% for 48 months on 2005 Camrys. Compare that to 3.9% on the 2004 Accord and no rebates.
I'm not saying Honda is blaming the user, I used the example because Volvo claimed responsibility. They probably could have gone even a step further with the wording but under the circumstances you can't expect much more.
If it turns out to be partly Honda's fault, then the Honda faithful will then say, "well it's only 20 vehicles that caught on fire." Or they'll say only 1% caught on fire, etc. I agree with newcar31's post above.
In the MSNBC article a "narrow escape" is mentioned.
"No injuries have been linked to the fires, but several of the reports detailed narrow escapes from vehicles that often were destroyed by flames."
And then we have a guy that even mentions the potential fire problem BEFORE the oil change.
"Gene Kinnaly of Dale City was enjoying his new Honda CR-V this summer until he began seeing media reports about the potential for fires. Before his 5,000-mile oil change two weeks ago, Kinnaly nervously reminded his dealer of the fire problem, and the technicians at Hendrick Honda assured him they would take great care with his car. The day after the oil change, Kinnaly stopped to get gas and noticed a burning smell from the front of his CR-V.
He lifted the hood to find smoke, and saw oil dripping from the undercarriage. It was the very problem Kinnaly feared, and though he caught it before the oil leak turned into a potentially dangerous fire, it left him shaken."
Again I agree with newcar31 on this. See post #2707.
And I only partly agree with your comments on the side curtain airbags, etc. Honda doesn't seem to be moving much faster than the other mainstream brands. As someone else mentioned before, the Kia Spectra has standard side curtain airbags. We know the next Sonata due next year will have the same, and maybe even ABS standard. ABS is standard on Subarus, the Camry, and on the Cobalt I believe. Honda doesn't seem to have some big jump on the competition in this area. I am glad they are doing it and don't take that away from them though.
My bigger point is if you offer the same options on the Accord as the TSX and TL then Acura loses what little prestige it has. Look at people all the time talking about the TL with bluetooth and the other fancy gadgets. Put these things on the Accord and it starts looking like an Acura. Eventually it'll be AWD that seperates Honda from Acura, but in the south many people don't care, which is why Subaru doesn't do as well.
can't see the the forest for the trees - the fact that Honda is doing ANYTHING about the transmission issues in the form of recalls or service bulletins, any types of repairs at no cost to the owners, is head and shoulders above what all of the other manufacturers are doing about their repetitive issues.
Dodge never issued recalls for their minivan or Neon tranmissions; Dodge/Plymouth never issued recalls for the Neon headgaskets; Ford never issued recalls for their 3.8 headgaskets; Chevy never issued recalls for their piston slap issues; GM never issued recalls for their heater fan motors; I could go on and on, considering I have the datebase to do so -
Honda HAS stepped up to do something, which is something I can't say for any other manufacturer of automobiles sold in the US - I've seen ONE Honda/Acura lemon law case (for a transmission) in 4 years in a heavily populated area.
I'm sorry, but the facts as I see them is that Honda is doing the right thing and every other manufacturer should be so proactive, or even REactive!
Drift, you used to work for dealers, right? The fact is, in those other issues, in a lot of cases, the dealers were able to charge for the repairs, so they wouldn't have too much trouble with things as they were. Granted it's painful for the customers, having to pay for things, but it's a slightly different situation, since most of those problem, when occuring, didn't usually threaten the life of the vehicle owner.
The situation with CR-Vs catching fire is slightly different. This isn't a case of the car breaking and the customer having to pay the dealer to fix it. In THIS case, the customer is risking his life, and the DEALERS are being left wide open to LOSE money due to liability, injury, loss, and possible wrongful death suits, while Honda Corporate, who designed the vehicle in the first place, is spending a (comparitive) few bucks sending out a letter stating to "be careful." So, understandable the dealers and quickie-lube places are also unhappy with Honda, since they're being left out there as sacrificial lambs, so to speak. (Ok, so some of them are more like wolves, but still).
In summary, the other cases mentioned involved the manufacturer's inaction not risking lives, and the dealers able to make money off of the service or the customer walking away from the car. In the CR-V case, Honda's action to this point is to take themselves out of the loop, leaving their customers at risk of life and limb, and hang their dealers out to dry by sticking them with any liablity. Incidentally, technician error has been proven to be the cause as much as design defect...meaning it hasn't.
out for a fix for the CRV engine fires?? Sounds like they are passing the blame on to how people change their oil??? If this is a defect Honda needs to come right out and tell people before someone gets hurt or killed, then they will be in deep....
"As long as the problem is less the 2-3%, Honda won't fix the problem until it breaks.
Isn't that the Honda pattern?"
Didn't we just go through all of this? Even you admitted that Honda should not have been expected to replace all of those transmissions when only a relatively small percentage were failing. Given that, what exactly would have been the purpose of a recall in that situation? What service would be performed on the cars as a result of such a recall?
And how is it the "Honda pattern" when they've just recalled over 1/2 million cars based on a handful of transmission failures?
I agree that Honda is massively mishandling the CR-V fire situation. But I think that the 2 transmission issues were handled about as well as was possible.
Have double gaskets or improper sealing due to material from the old gasket being left on the engine, what is Honda supposed to do. That's not Honda's problem. The reason NHTSA agreed with Honda is that there obviously weren't any cases where the CR-V just caught on fire. Not only should Honda be implicated in this conspiracy theory, NHTSA is right there with them. And if you are going to say NHTSA doesn't care, then you have to throw all crash tests out of the window since they also come from that agency.
Honda must be filthy rich to pay every magazine and government ageny off the way they do. I guess the EPA is lying about Honda's excellent efficiency too.
napaladin:"Drift, you used to work for dealers, right? The fact is, in those other issues, in a lot of cases, the dealers were able to charge for the repairs, so they wouldn't have too much trouble with things as they were. Granted it's painful for the customers, having to pay for things, but it's a slightly different situation, since most of those problem, when occuring, didn't usually threaten the life of the vehicle owner."
Driftracer was talking about the Honda transmission issues, which are no more "life-threatening" than the problem areas he highlighted with Ford, GM and Chrysler vehicles.
jgriff: "As long as the problem is less the 2-3%, Honda won't fix the problem until it breaks."
And what actions do other automakers take, even when the problem hits a 2-3 percent frequency rate, and continues on for several years? As driftracer has explained, they often do NOTHING. ZIP. ZERO. ZILCH.
GM is right now being sued over the piston-slap issue, as owners of GM vehicles afflicted with piston slap are finding out that a noisy engine kills resale value. But GM still refuses to admit there is any problem.
My sister-in-law fought with Chrysler for YEARS over the reimbursement for the head-gasket repair to her mid-1990s Dodge Neon. And that problem was more widespread than the Honda/Acura transmission issue, from what I've read.
She would have been thrilled if Chrysler had handled her situation the way Honda is dealing with its transmission issues.
...between a lot of these situations is that many of them (tranny, piston slap, head gaskets) aren't as immediately life-threatening and pure-damage-causing as a vehicle catching fire. If someone's tranny dies then yeah, they're stranded, and need a tow truck and a new tranny. If someone's vehicle catches fire, they're stranded with a $20k+ bonfire, assuming they're able to escape the vehcile before being killed by flames.
It's a difference of degree (Ok, bad pun, but it was unintentional). The fires are a bigger issue because there is a much greater potential for more damage and injury per single incident. How many piston-slappers or bad trannys managed to completely destory a vehcile to the point of write-off, as well as seriously threaten the lifves of the vehicle occupants?
ALL CRV's off the road when they found a problem with the seatbelts a few years ago. I mean they put out a bulliten instructing owners to stop driving them NOW. So I feel if Honda thought they bore any responsibility in the cars catching fire they would step up. It would make more sense to do it now since no high risk lawsuit is in the works yet. And like I said, NHTSA didn't require Honda to do ANYTHING about it. Even if they haven't concluded the investigation, it's very telling that with so many CRV fires, they didn't do anything either. They must be pretty durn convinced the "technician error" reason has credibility.
"They must be pretty durn convinced the "technician error" reason has credibility."
I don't think anybody is saying that it doesn't have credibility.
What I am trying to say is that technician error is not the only reason. This should be obvious to anyone, unless you don't want to believe it.
If screwing up the oil filter is the only reason, why aren't we hearing about this for other cars?
Why no MSNBC reports on Civics and Accords starting on fire after a botched oil change? There are PLENTY of Civics and Accords out there that have had screwed up oil changes. Where are the fires?
Considering those questions, how could you think the problem is not design specific and only technician error?
any car with an oil leak (or more accurately, oil spraying on a hot engine) is subject to a fire. What seems logical to conclude from the reports on the CRV is that, for some reason, on the CRV it is more prevalent to catch fire than other car models (Hondas included). But, if there isn't a screw-up with the oil change, there won't be a fire, so you can't really say it is a "defect".
Now, if I was Honda, I would figure out what it is about the CRV and make a change if possible (move a component, or add a $.49 heat shield) to hopefully reduce the consequences of an oil leak in a CRV.
I was talking about mechanical breakdown issues - it seems Honda is the only one around to do anything - everyone else (the other manufacturers) just sit back and tell the consumers "tough luck"...
The CRV fire issue - since they have ALL been attributed to technician error, and that we have established that oil is flammable on ANY vehicle where a leak is involved, we must admit that the conspiracy theory and hand-wringer folks are just that - over-reacting scaredy cats who blame everyone but who is really responsible - it happens every day in many arenas.
Reread post #2730 - said everything I wanted to say before I could say it - great post, and right on the money.
One thing to consider with the discussion of sales increases is production capacity. It is quite likely that Honda can't increase sales too much, since it can't build that many more vehicles on short notice (that is, without expanding production capacity).
The Ody and Pilot have pretty much been a sell out (can't make more if they want to ). Not sure about some of the other cars like CRV.
SOmetimes with a "run", you don't get worse, but the compition just catches up. IMO, that's sorta what happened to Honda. They still make excellent cars, but the compition these days is fierce. They just aren't the only quality maker anymore.
But, sounds like the new Ody will (functionally) be a home run. Hopefully it won't be plaqued by quality glitches (like the tranny), especially since I will probably be buying one later this year (selfish, I know).
To me, the next Civic is key. They need to hit a home run here. That, and hope the new small car (Fit?) is a hit on the bottom end, and maybe re-do the butt on the Accord. A new pilot should be here soon too (just ignore that pick-up thingee and pretend it never happened).
CRV does fine, Acura's on a roll, so overall they are in good shape. High gas prices won't hurt either.
Bottom line, they sell a lot of cars and I believe make lots of money doing it, so from that standpoint, the "run" continues.
"any car with an oil leak (or more accurately, oil spraying on a hot engine) is subject to a fire."
Where are the reports of other fires for other vehicles related to oil changes then?
"The CRV fire issue - since they have ALL been attributed to technician error, and that we have established that oil is flammable on ANY vehicle where a leak is involved, we must admit that the conspiracy theory and hand-wringer folks are just that"
If that's the case, why are the "hand-wringer folks" picking on the CR-V exclusively?
What is it about the CR-V that promotes consipiracy theories?
the oil filter is way down toward the bottom of the engine. If there ever was a malfunction and it sprayed, the worst that would happen is it would get on the exhaust pipe, but not the manifold which is hotter.
Part of the problem with the CRV fires, versus another car, might be, to borrow from the real estate cliche: "Location, Location, Location!"
I think the CRV is being singled out because so many owners of other cars are getting tired of hearing how good Honda is - just like they shouldn't dumb-down school tests to the non-smart kids can have better self esteem, Honda shouldn't stop producing reliable cars so owners of non-reliable cars will feel better.
Looks like a witch hunt, plain and simple, especially given that I've seen several cars on fire after oil changes (posted this before), and I've never worked in service at a Honda dealer,so those cars were GMs, Fords, and DCC products.
I really meant that oil spraying for any reason was likely to catch on fire. Andre succinctly made the point about CRVs seeming to have hot stuff in the way of an oil filter leak, where other cars with the same leak might just make a mess.
I've never seen under the hood of a CR-V, so I don't know where the filter actually is. All this talk about heat shields and such, however, leads me to believe that it might be in a potentially bad spot.
I've had oil filters leak onto the exhaust pipe before. Heck, it's almost a design feature of old V-8 Mopars that when you change the filter you end up coating the exhaust pipe with oil! But I guess the main difference here is that it's thicker, and not a fine spray. And also, the exhaust pipe really doesn't get that hot. Hot enough to cook the oil off yes, and hot enough that you don't want to touch it when you're changing the oil! But probably not hot enough to ignite it. But then, if it was a fine, pressurized spray, it just might.
I'm still having trouble picturing a CR-V filter. Do they use the simple spin-on cannister, like what's been used for years? Or do they use a cartridge element that you place inside the filter housing/case? Cars used to use filters like that back in the old days. My '57 DeSoto has a filter like that, and Chevy used it up through '67. But lately, I've heard that a lot of cars are going back to that design for environmental concerns. Evidently, those drop-in elements hold less oil in them than the metal spin-on cannister, so less oil ends up in the landfills.
it must have a spin-on oil filter, surely! I can't understand why the Element does not shed more light on this mystery - it has the same engine doesn't it? So there must be some minor difference under the hood between it and the CRV that makes all the difference as far as oil fires. If the oil filter is merely located so as to spray on hot parts when the oil filter change is improperly performed, I would call that "unwise location" on the part of the manufacturer, but wouldn't necessarily say it is anyone's fault per se. I mean, that sign says "TEN MINUTE oil changes" after all. Techs are doing those things so fast they don't really have time to stop and make sure they got the old gasket off, etc. They should be checking, but in practice I bet they don't get time. Now, you would think the oil change guys inside the dealerships would be more careful.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
that I'm wondering whether or not the Element has a spin-on filter is all this talk about the gasket. With the spin-on, the gasket is attached to the filter, and you just have to "prime" it with oil before putting it on. With the drop-in element types, you get a separate gasket for the housing/case. And in the case of my DeSoto, you also get another little washer/gasket for the long bolt that holds the whole thing together.
Ok this is just getting out of hand. You're proving my point from before. That some people have such blind loyalty to a specific brand that they feel they can do no wrong, that they don't make mistakes, and will take care of customers in 100% of situations. Just because they help someone in one situation doesn't mean others aren't getting screwed over by Honda.
If those posts about people having to pay out of pocket for transmissions holds any water then Honda certainly wasn't taking care of them. And I've read a couple of posts on the internet where someone had the Volvo seat fire incident and Volvo turned their back on them. I don't remember the reasoning behind it and if they were trying to pin the blame on the user somehow, but Volvo just like Honda handles some situations fine and others they'll leave the customers to fend for themselves.
So you're telling me, let's say Toyota, might treat customers ok in some situations but in others like the oil sludge issue will try to avoid responsibility, but yet the all mighty Honda would NEVER do that? They would never mistreat a customer even if they know they're in the wrong? Just answer that question, I can't wait to hear your answer.
Don’t get me wrong I do commend Honda in how they handle most issues, I found them to be better than most manufacturers. Believe me I have had other experiences, with my Oldsmobile & GM, as I got no where on repeat issues.
But in most cases, things really have to come to a head, before things get address promptly.
Oh and GM stopped sales on the Aveo because of some potential problems that I think never materialized. Does that mean we can always count on GM to take care of their customers? If some of you are convinced that Honda always does the right thing in all situations then there's no point in debating this and nothing will change your mind. That's like trusting every word that comes out of a politician's mouth.
Believe me I have had other experiences, with my Oldsmobile & GM, as I got no where on repeat issues.
Right on. I know all about how great GM is. I'll reward them for their pathetic customer service by not buying their product again. My Neon also had a head gasket problem, front speaker caught on fire, would stall in the middle of the road at random, A/C gone, and overall had terrible electrical problems. All was out of warranty though and never pursued reimbursement. I'll take the hit and reward them as well by not buying their product either.
That leaves me with Ford and Japanese/Korean brands. I won't buy European because the prices are ridiculous and they don't really appeal to me. And yes I'll consider a Honda, no matter how much I bash them. But I realize no brand is perfect and all of them mistreat customers at one point or another.
"GM stopped the Aveo not to take care of consumers, but to take care of themselves by preventing lawsuits...."
but when Honda does something it is out of general goodness of their hearts???
It is all about the conflict between the bottom line and image impacting sales. Wherever any of these major companies can straddle the line, they will.
Comments
Obviously, they are not the first in everything. But they have a remarkably high rate of innovation for a relatively small company. It has always been that way.
I like the title of the MSN article:
"Warning to dealers hasn't stopped oil-change errors"
Didn't I keep saying that a long time ago?
It's not going to stop.
Also wouldn't surprise me if some Honda dealers tell their customers to take their CR-Vs somewhere else to get their oil changed, so THEY don't have to pay out.
Now, when all the smoke clears (sorry, couldn't resist), we may find that there is a problem making the CR-V more prone than other vehicles. At that time, Honda must initiate a recall.
Until then, all Honda can do is keep investigating and do their best to ensure the Techs do their jobs.
There are two parts to the CR-V fire equation.
Tech mistake + design = fire
IT IS NOT SIMPLY A TECHNICIAN FAILURE.
If it was, we wouldn't even be discussing this.
Is that Buick/Olds dealer in Lansdale Harris Olds? That's where my girlfriend got her 1999 Cutlass sedan. I hope she didn't pay too much.
They must have at least 20 Aleros dustin' and rustin'...
all I can say is, low sulphur diesel cannot come sooner!
And the jazz have stability assist as option?
Someone please tell me why don't we even have traction control on accords, let alone vsa?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They are polar opposites IMO.
-juice
Second, since you are convinced there is a defect... Care to share what it is? Plenty of engineers have looked into it. What makes you so certain?
Any leak can lead to a fire. This is not unique to the CR-V.
http://207.150.192.12/temp/crobert0/oil.htm
"Of the many causes of fires in motor vehicles, oil leakage ranks among the highest."
Furthermore, I've had a grease monkey forget to replace the filler cap on my CR-V. Oil got sprayed all over the engine compartment. Should Honda be held responsible for not designing a self-closing oil filler tube?
If the Tech does their job properly, there should be no stacked or pinched gasket. So, I really don't see a problem with starting there.
OTOH, I highly doubt an Accord 2.2 CDI or whatever it is called would sell well at all. The 4-cyl Accord just gets too good mileage as it is, and there is a lot of anti-diesel sentiment out there on the roads of America...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If I had made a "narrow escape" from a Honda that burst into flames I would want to hear more from them than this dancing around that they're doing.
This is what a Volvo spokesperson said in response to someone's seat heater catching on fire.
"We haven't received any information about the S-60 having problems, but because people's lives are involved, we're treating the matter seriously," a ministry spokesman said, adding that Volvo recalled 13,403 cars of a different model in April last year after discovering they had flawed seat heaters.
Volvo's importer was apologetic.
"It was not the fault of the user," a spokesman for the company said. "It's an accident that should never have happened. We're terribly sorry."
(By the way, let me say I'm sure Volvo has many cases where they tried to avoid responsibility, they're like any other company. But saying it's not the user's fault and they take the blame for the incident is what I want to hear if my car catches on fire.)
Because you would now have an Acura on your hands. This is all Acura is, a Honda filled to the brim with options. Even the Corolla has VSA optional. Honda will have to do a lot more to their Acuras before they start offering equal options and lower price on their Hondas.
NHTSA is going to continue to monitor it. I wonder if any DIYers are having this problem.
Using a seat heater means flipping a switch - if the seat then turns into a barbecue that is clearly a defect in design. But here we are talking about third parties being involved (oil change techs), and there is absolutely no problem reported on any CRV until those techs do what they do.
BTW, has anyone had to make a ""narrow escape" from a Honda that burst into flames"? I thought there had been no injuries, or am I getting confused?
an alternate view: ""Someone please tell me why don't we even have traction control on accords, let alone vsa?"
Honda has chosen to spread around side curtain airbags instead, standard on even the cheapest Accords this year, and reputedly to be standard on Civics from MY '06 on. Many manufacturers are playing around with a mix on these various safety options, so Honda is no exception. ABS is mostly standard across the line now too, unlike Toyota and GM for instance. The only exceptions are the Civic DX/LX, and again that is expected to be rectified with the '06. The ABS/side curtain combo is only manufactured by Toyota on fully loaded Corollas at present - somewhat pricey. That may also change in the near future - we will see.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It interests me enough to think about a Passat Wagon with a diesel motor, and I have no real love for VW.
I'm hoping more diesels will come down the pike from several brands. (I could be in a small minority though I guess)
For the first eight months of 2004, Honda's U.S. vehicle sales were roughly flat from a year ago. Toyota Motor Corp. (news - web sites), Japan's biggest automaker, was up 9 percent for the same period, while No. 3 Nissan, riding the launch of several new vehicles, was up 23 percent.
Looks like Nissan and Toyota are on a roll while Honda is struggling in North America. Could the transmission recall coupled with the CRV catching fire be the reason? Something to think about
Mitsubishi would be "struggling" IMO.
If it turns out to be partly Honda's fault, then the Honda faithful will then say, "well it's only 20 vehicles that caught on fire." Or they'll say only 1% caught on fire, etc. I agree with newcar31's post above.
In the MSNBC article a "narrow escape" is mentioned.
"No injuries have been linked to the fires, but several of the reports detailed narrow escapes from vehicles that often were destroyed by flames."
And then we have a guy that even mentions the potential fire problem BEFORE the oil change.
"Gene Kinnaly of Dale City was enjoying his new Honda CR-V this summer until he began seeing media reports about the potential for fires. Before his 5,000-mile oil change two weeks ago, Kinnaly nervously reminded his dealer of the fire problem, and the technicians at Hendrick Honda assured him they would take great care with his car. The day after the oil change, Kinnaly stopped to get gas and noticed a burning smell from the front of his CR-V.
He lifted the hood to find smoke, and saw oil dripping from the undercarriage. It was the very problem Kinnaly feared, and though he caught it before the oil leak turned into a potentially dangerous fire, it left him shaken."
Again I agree with newcar31 on this. See post #2707.
And I only partly agree with your comments on the side curtain airbags, etc. Honda doesn't seem to be moving much faster than the other mainstream brands. As someone else mentioned before, the Kia Spectra has standard side curtain airbags. We know the next Sonata due next year will have the same, and maybe even ABS standard. ABS is standard on Subarus, the Camry, and on the Cobalt I believe. Honda doesn't seem to have some big jump on the competition in this area. I am glad they are doing it and don't take that away from them though.
My bigger point is if you offer the same options on the Accord as the TSX and TL then Acura loses what little prestige it has. Look at people all the time talking about the TL with bluetooth and the other fancy gadgets. Put these things on the Accord and it starts looking like an Acura. Eventually it'll be AWD that seperates Honda from Acura, but in the south many people don't care, which is why Subaru doesn't do as well.
Dodge never issued recalls for their minivan or Neon tranmissions; Dodge/Plymouth never issued recalls for the Neon headgaskets; Ford never issued recalls for their 3.8 headgaskets; Chevy never issued recalls for their piston slap issues; GM never issued recalls for their heater fan motors; I could go on and on, considering I have the datebase to do so -
Honda HAS stepped up to do something, which is something I can't say for any other manufacturer of automobiles sold in the US - I've seen ONE Honda/Acura lemon law case (for a transmission) in 4 years in a heavily populated area.
I'm sorry, but the facts as I see them is that Honda is doing the right thing and every other manufacturer should be so proactive, or even REactive!
The situation with CR-Vs catching fire is slightly different. This isn't a case of the car breaking and the customer having to pay the dealer to fix it. In THIS case, the customer is risking his life, and the DEALERS are being left wide open to LOSE money due to liability, injury, loss, and possible wrongful death suits, while Honda Corporate, who designed the vehicle in the first place, is spending a (comparitive) few bucks sending out a letter stating to "be careful." So, understandable the dealers and quickie-lube places are also unhappy with Honda, since they're being left out there as sacrificial lambs, so to speak. (Ok, so some of them are more like wolves, but still).
In summary, the other cases mentioned involved the manufacturer's inaction not risking lives, and the dealers able to make money off of the service or the customer walking away from the car. In the CR-V case, Honda's action to this point is to take themselves out of the loop, leaving their customers at risk of life and limb, and hang their dealers out to dry by sticking them with any liablity. Incidentally, technician error has been proven to be the cause as much as design defect...meaning it hasn't.
Isn't that the Honda pattern?
That is the way it work on my '01 CL tranmission. No recall, but trannies were dropping 2 & 3 gears.
On a half millon cars that only 10,000 units, no biggie.
Isn't that the Honda pattern?"
Didn't we just go through all of this? Even you admitted that Honda should not have been expected to replace all of those transmissions when only a relatively small percentage were failing. Given that, what exactly would have been the purpose of a recall in that situation? What service would be performed on the cars as a result of such a recall?
And how is it the "Honda pattern" when they've just recalled over 1/2 million cars based on a handful of transmission failures?
I agree that Honda is massively mishandling the CR-V fire situation. But I think that the 2 transmission issues were handled about as well as was possible.
Honda must be filthy rich to pay every magazine and government ageny off the way they do. I guess the EPA is lying about Honda's excellent efficiency too.
Driftracer was talking about the Honda transmission issues, which are no more "life-threatening" than the problem areas he highlighted with Ford, GM and Chrysler vehicles.
jgriff: "As long as the problem is less the 2-3%, Honda won't fix the problem until it breaks."
And what actions do other automakers take, even when the problem hits a 2-3 percent frequency rate, and continues on for several years? As driftracer has explained, they often do NOTHING. ZIP. ZERO. ZILCH.
GM is right now being sued over the piston-slap issue, as owners of GM vehicles afflicted with piston slap are finding out that a noisy engine kills resale value. But GM still refuses to admit there is any problem.
My sister-in-law fought with Chrysler for YEARS over the reimbursement for the head-gasket repair to her mid-1990s Dodge Neon. And that problem was more widespread than the Honda/Acura transmission issue, from what I've read.
She would have been thrilled if Chrysler had handled her situation the way Honda is dealing with its transmission issues.
It's a difference of degree (Ok, bad pun, but it was unintentional). The fires are a bigger issue because there is a much greater potential for more damage and injury per single incident. How many piston-slappers or bad trannys managed to completely destory a vehcile to the point of write-off, as well as seriously threaten the lifves of the vehicle occupants?
I don't think anybody is saying that it doesn't have credibility.
What I am trying to say is that technician error is not the only reason. This should be obvious to anyone, unless you don't want to believe it.
If screwing up the oil filter is the only reason, why aren't we hearing about this for other cars?
Why no MSNBC reports on Civics and Accords starting on fire after a botched oil change? There are PLENTY of Civics and Accords out there that have had screwed up oil changes. Where are the fires?
Considering those questions, how could you think the problem is not design specific and only technician error?
Now, if I was Honda, I would figure out what it is about the CRV and make a change if possible (move a component, or add a $.49 heat shield) to hopefully reduce the consequences of an oil leak in a CRV.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The CRV fire issue - since they have ALL been attributed to technician error, and that we have established that oil is flammable on ANY vehicle where a leak is involved, we must admit that the conspiracy theory and hand-wringer folks are just that - over-reacting scaredy cats who blame everyone but who is really responsible - it happens every day in many arenas.
Reread post #2730 - said everything I wanted to say before I could say it - great post, and right on the money.
The Ody and Pilot have pretty much been a sell out (can't make more if they want to ). Not sure about some of the other cars like CRV.
SOmetimes with a "run", you don't get worse, but the compition just catches up. IMO, that's sorta what happened to Honda. They still make excellent cars, but the compition these days is fierce. They just aren't the only quality maker anymore.
But, sounds like the new Ody will (functionally) be a home run. Hopefully it won't be plaqued by quality glitches (like the tranny), especially since I will probably be buying one later this year (selfish, I know).
To me, the next Civic is key. They need to hit a home run here. That, and hope the new small car (Fit?) is a hit on the bottom end, and maybe re-do the butt on the Accord. A new pilot should be here soon too (just ignore that pick-up thingee and pretend it never happened).
CRV does fine, Acura's on a roll, so overall they are in good shape. High gas prices won't hurt either.
Bottom line, they sell a lot of cars and I believe make lots of money doing it, so from that standpoint, the "run" continues.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Where are the reports of other fires for other vehicles related to oil changes then?
"The CRV fire issue - since they have ALL been attributed to technician error, and that we have established that oil is flammable on ANY vehicle where a leak is involved, we must admit that the conspiracy theory and hand-wringer folks are just that"
If that's the case, why are the "hand-wringer folks" picking on the CR-V exclusively?
What is it about the CR-V that promotes consipiracy theories?
Part of the problem with the CRV fires, versus another car, might be, to borrow from the real estate cliche: "Location, Location, Location!"
Looks like a witch hunt, plain and simple, especially given that I've seen several cars on fire after oil changes (posted this before), and I've never worked in service at a Honda dealer,so those cars were GMs, Fords, and DCC products.
These must be the same folks that framed OJ Simpson.
I get it now.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I've had oil filters leak onto the exhaust pipe before. Heck, it's almost a design feature of old V-8 Mopars that when you change the filter you end up coating the exhaust pipe with oil! But I guess the main difference here is that it's thicker, and not a fine spray. And also, the exhaust pipe really doesn't get that hot. Hot enough to cook the oil off yes, and hot enough that you don't want to touch it when you're changing the oil! But probably not hot enough to ignite it. But then, if it was a fine, pressurized spray, it just might.
I'm still having trouble picturing a CR-V filter. Do they use the simple spin-on cannister, like what's been used for years? Or do they use a cartridge element that you place inside the filter housing/case? Cars used to use filters like that back in the old days. My '57 DeSoto has a filter like that, and Chevy used it up through '67. But lately, I've heard that a lot of cars are going back to that design for environmental concerns. Evidently, those drop-in elements hold less oil in them than the metal spin-on cannister, so less oil ends up in the landfills.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If those posts about people having to pay out of pocket for transmissions holds any water then Honda certainly wasn't taking care of them. And I've read a couple of posts on the internet where someone had the Volvo seat fire incident and Volvo turned their back on them. I don't remember the reasoning behind it and if they were trying to pin the blame on the user somehow, but Volvo just like Honda handles some situations fine and others they'll leave the customers to fend for themselves.
So you're telling me, let's say Toyota, might treat customers ok in some situations but in others like the oil sludge issue will try to avoid responsibility, but yet the all mighty Honda would NEVER do that? They would never mistreat a customer even if they know they're in the wrong? Just answer that question, I can't wait to hear your answer.
But in most cases, things really have to come to a head, before things get address promptly.
Man, you can smell the naivity in the air...
Right on. I know all about how great GM is. I'll reward them for their pathetic customer service by not buying their product again. My Neon also had a head gasket problem, front speaker caught on fire, would stall in the middle of the road at random, A/C gone, and overall had terrible electrical problems. All was out of warranty though and never pursued reimbursement. I'll take the hit and reward them as well by not buying their product either.
That leaves me with Ford and Japanese/Korean brands. I won't buy European because the prices are ridiculous and they don't really appeal to me. And yes I'll consider a Honda, no matter how much I bash them. But I realize no brand is perfect and all of them mistreat customers at one point or another.
but when Honda does something it is out of general goodness of their hearts???
It is all about the conflict between the bottom line and image impacting sales. Wherever any of these major companies can straddle the line, they will.