3. Honda is still investigating the issue. The NHTSA is monitoring it.
4. According to Honda, nothing changed between the 2002 and 2003 design.
5. Honda got the "official" message out to dealers in mid July.
6. The official word has not yet been spread to oil-changers like Pep Boys and Jiffy Lube. The deadline for the industry publication where the notice should appear had already passed when the decision was made. It will appear in the next publication.
7. There have been 10 cases since mid July when the notification went out. There is no word on whether these happened at dealers (who were notified), or industry retailers (who were not).
The only thing I can see Honda getting nabbed for is the lack of "fault tolerance" as Juice described it.
If the only way these fires can happen is when the Tech fails to change the oil properly, then the primary fault is with the Tech. I don't care how "tough" it is to remove the gasket. You don't just leave it on there because you might break a nail trying to scrape it off! That's no excuse.
Have you seen what a nail salon charges nowadays? ;-)
robert: you don't always have the luxury of knowing every possible scenario that could be causing the fires.
That doesn't mean you shoudn't try to address what are the most likely scenarios.
OK, the service bulletin was a start, but fires still happen, some at dealers (check the CR-V thread - an Edmunds member was affected even after spefically bringing it up to the service manager).
Honda should provide "Gasket Goggles" that light up red and beep whenever a gasket is still present.
Sorry, just felt like we needed some comic relief there.
We now have one Element and one 2002 CR-V. So it could be that instead of the model year cut off, it's vehicles built after a certain date, a certain range of VINs, or perhaps models that came with a certain oil filter (we know of at least 2 part numbers).
Do we know much about that 2002? Was is the first oil change? Did it happen in the past and only get reported now, or what?
Let's add some relevant facts to varmint's list:
* most fires occured after oil changes at the DEALER not Jiffy Lube * fires have still occured (again, at the dealer) even after dealers got the bulletin * Honda has has at least 2 different oil filter part numbers (why?) * Gasket Goggles would be a cool name for a Rock Band
newcar31 A: "Actually all the fires DID happen after the first oil change." I'm not disputing that.
B: "It only could happen after the 1st oil change" That's wrong.
Are you sure you’re not contradicting yourself in scenario B compared to scenario A? Perhaps, we could rephrase scenario B as follows: “It has only happened after the 1st oil change”
What now?
ateixeira you don't always have the luxury of knowing every possible scenario that could be causing the fires.
Discovering every possibility is impossible. But consistency in the few that you do is needed to arrive at a conclusion. True?
I agree, Acura is on more of a roll than Honda. I almost wish I had picked up a TSX instead of my RSX, but it is less my style because it is a four-door.
I can't wait to read the article, but just out of curiosity, which cars were in the comparo with the TSX?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Are you sure you’re not contradicting yourself in scenario B compared to scenario A? Perhaps, we could rephrase scenario B as follows"
Dude, you need reading comprehension classes.
I was responding to wonderbread when he said:
"It only could happen after the 1st oil change"
"It" being a stacked gasket.
Stacked gaskets can happen ANYTIME the gasket sticks. I've done thousands of oil changes on all kinds of cars. Gaskets stick sometimes, and it doesn't "only" happen after the first oil change.
If a stacked gasket was found to be the cause of some of the fires, you're not safe after the first oil change because stacked gaskets can happen anytime, like I said.
I am not disputing that all of the fires happened after the first oil change because I don't know.
What I do know is that stacked gaskets can and do happen long after the first oil change. You can stack a gasket at 5000 miles and you can stack a gasket at 200,000 miles. That's a FACT.
the TSX had the highest power rating of the group? Oh wait, except the Legacy GT, right? Now I really can't wait to read it. Was the TSX the only front-driver in the group, or did they test the base FWD versions of the Audi and Volvo?
I have driven one a few times (it is the loaner car from my Acura dealer's service bay) and very much like it, although the A/C eats up a little too much of the power for a supposedly "quick" car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"So, how many instances of fires have you seen reported from subsequent oil changes?"
If you read post 2813, you'll get your answer.
I have personally seen stuck gaskets on cars well after their first oil change and of course, I took them off.
Since a stacked gasket has been cited as the cause for at least some of the fires, I can say with 100% certainty that it isn't just a first oil change issue.
For the 800th time, STACKED GASKETS CAN HAPPEN ANYTIME!
it's a rubber gasket that gets stuck to the oil filter mounting point because of heat from the engine. It can happen on any car or truck. It can easily happen if the filter has been in place for more than an hour, which is usually the case when you get your oil changed at 3-5k miles...
In "Oil Change 101" class, which I took when I was 9, laying on a piece of cardboard under my older brother's Chevrolet truck, the gasket is the first thing you look for after removing the filter.
If a tech can't get that part right, I certainly don't want him reprogramming the PCM!
If you can't see it, you can feel it. If you can't feel it, you can check the old filter to see if the gasket is still there.
At the same time, I don't think a car should start on fire if someone forgets to check. Stacked gaskets happen numereous times every single day across the country and across the world. Every day.
"I don't see a number quoted on number of fires reported after subsequent oil changes"
I never claimed that I knew.
READ! READ! Can you READ?
Here, I'll quote myself, maybe this time you'll understand, but honestly, I'm getting tired of responding to your posts. If you read my posts to begin with, I wouldn't have to repeat myself.
Here:
"I am not disputing that all of the fires happened after the first oil change because I don't know.
What I do know is that stacked gaskets can and do happen long after the first oil change. You can stack a gasket at 5000 miles and you can stack a gasket at 200,000 miles. That's a FACT."
needs to return to the simple old ways. Competent, reliable fun to drive cars not Camry clones and Buick cousins. The balancing act that they are playing with Acura means that the 'marketing guys' and not the 'engineering guys' are currently in control of the future of the company. This is a typical GM photophobic view of the auto market place and it is likely to fail (except they change course soon). When Honda destroys the zeal that folks have for its product who/what will be left?
is this a view that is afraid of the light? Not sure I understood this remark.
I hope that in the next few years Honda will work at shuffling line-ups and cars so that Honda and Acura are a little more separated. They have never been that far apart, but instead of taking Acura further upscale from Honda in the last decade as you might expect them to do, Acura is actually getting a little closer to Honda.
I drove a Civic Si and my RSX (base) back to back, and there was precious little between them, I can tell you, warranty and styling excepted (I preferred the fastback to the squarer SI).
Someday I will have to drive an Accord V-6 with NAV and a TL back to back and see just how different those two really are. In price, they are only about $4K apart, right? And underneath they are both Accords broadly speaking, except the TL has 10% more power.
I could do the same comparison between the MDX and the Pilot. Acura needs more stand-alone models (not really counting the NSX here as it is so widely separated from the rest of the Acura line and sells in tiny niche volumes) and they need to be a significant step up from the Honda car that is most similar to them. One thing I would love to see is SH-AWD for all the Acura cars and a big power bump, because the Honda cars are going to have to step up to remain stand-outs in their own segments.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
needs to return to the simple old ways. Competent, reliable fun to drive cars not Camry clones and Buick cousins. The balancing act that they are playing with Acura means that the 'marketing guys' and not the 'engineering guys' are currently in control of the future of the company. This is a typical GM photophobic view of the auto market place and it is likely to fail (except they change course soon). When Honda destroys the zeal that folks have for its product who/what will be left?
"Honda needs to return to the simple old ways. Competent, reliable fun to drive cars not Camry clones and Buick cousins."
Can't get more simple than a Buick
Sounds like the Break-in additve has something to do with the fires, if you ask me. Would love to know the flash point of the additive and then put a TC to a warmed up manifold. Probably would explain things a bit more...
"Sounds like the Break-in additve has something to do with the fires, if you ask me."
How is that possible when the break-in additive is removed during the first oil change?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't that the whole purpose of changing the oil... the original oil goes away and is replaced by new (sans additive) oil?
C&D had a $30K price cap on the comparo featuring the TSX. That pretty well handicapped the A4 and Volvo. AWD models for both would have put them into the TL's price range. As it was, I think the Audi they got atually MSRP'd at $31K.
The TSX was the least expensive by a narrow margin, but I'm sure Subie dealers are more likely to move on the Legacy's price tag, than Acura will with the TSX.
It was nice to see the Soob included (it finished 3rd). It's most impressive feature was the turbo 2.5 four. The Audi got trounced (4th) being the oldest and handicapped by the 30K price restriction. The Volvo seemed like the only contender that offered a balance of sporty feel, style, and luxury. If memory serves... the TSX took 17 of the 22 categories.
It doesn't completely get removed though. It's not like your putting oil into a bone dry motor. It's coated everything its' come in contact with, and I would believe it would take 2 or 3 flushes before it is totally purged from the motor. It's probably so diluted by the new stuff that it may be harmless, but still...
Another theory is that during the draining process, the tech may be flushing the original oil and spilling it on the manifold at that point. Careless cleanup, the car's been sitting with the engine off for 15 minutes, giving the manifold time to cool, oil change is done, driver drives off, manifold heats back up...
It's almost impossible not to spill oil on the manifold on my 02 Accord, getting at the damn thing takes some contortion, so I wouldn't put all the blame on the techs either. Poor placement of the filter has resulted in some "oil barbecue" on the header many times, on all my Accords...
"One thing I would love to see is SH-AWD for all the Acura cars and a big power bump, because the Honda cars are going to have to step up to remain stand-outs in their own segments."
We all know this is the cheap way out. This is their only option since the horsepower is getting out of hand. AWD Accords, big deal. They're spending all that money on the new NSX (I assume they're still going through with it) yet on the low-end the best they can do is reuse the same platforms over and over again. That runs out? Add AWD to mix things up a little. The TSX weighs too much as it is, now we want to pay even more and add more weight to it? We want to pay 10 grand premiums for AWD, an Acura badge, and bluetooth?
Now look at Lexus. New RWD platforms. AWD across the board. Coupes, convertibles, sport wagons. New engines. Huge lineup with cars going as high as 100 grand. Hybrids. You name it and they'll have it. And Honda fans will be bragging about Acura going AWD? Lexus and Infiniti are going to DESTROY Acura.
Acura is a joke. Honda gets 94% of their profits from North America? Hmmm..I wonder why. Because people are paying huge premiums to get their hands on an Accord with AWD and better styling?
you speak in very strong tones, but I can appreciate your perspective. The thing with Acura is, Honda is a small fish in a big pond. The financial resources Toyota Corp can bring to bear for the Lexus brand, and likewise Nissan for the Infiniti brand, are far greater than those of Honda. Consequently, Acuras are for the most part "tarted up" Hondas.
BUT don't forget that all the volume models for Lexus and Infiniti are tarted up Toyotas and Nissans. The difference is that they make niche sales of much more specialized vehicles, which gives those brands a "halo".
Lexus makes, like, 75% of its sales off ES330 and RX330 - basically tarted up Camry V-6s and Highlander V-6s (although there is a little more differentiation between HL and RX).
Which is the reason MB/BMW owners think of Infiniti and Lexus as a "joke". (at which point I remind them of the pathetic piles of C230 sedans and coupes at every dealership with big red discount signs in their windows, and that the maker of the ultimate driving machine makes more than half its sales off its cheapest model, the 325i, tee hee!).
So what isn't a joke? Well, since Lexus and Infiniti make the majority of their sales off their sub-$40K vehicles, it is no joke that Acura can give them a run for their money with its sub-$40K vehicles, which is where it is strongest (and where it is winning a bunch of comparos right now). As far as being "DESTROYED" by Lex/Inf, I don't anticipate that any time soon. Heck, if Renault so much as burps, Infiniti is going to go right back down the hole it came up so convincingly a couple of years ago. And then there were two...
:-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Their exterior styling has taken a major dip. The Accord has deifantely taken a dip in styling the last 2 generations. The Civic has taken a dip exterior styling. The stylists are trying to be so bland with Honda styling it makes no sense. Acura is getting all the great styling while Honda gets bare bones these days. The late 80's Accord Coupe and mid 90' Accord(96-97) were good looking cars. The new Accord it just does nothing for me. On the other hand if you go to an Acura dealership the new TL and new RL(from what I have seen) look pretty good. Honda will sink themselves if they try to be Toyota. All this sales growth is coming from Acura this year. The Accord is really not in demand like it was in the 80's and 90's(I think the styling on the 4 door model has lots do with that.)The Accord has been Honda;s bread and butter for over 25 years. The next generation better make sense styling wise because the current does nothing for me from a styling standpoint.
As far as Lexus and Infinti destroying Acura thats crazy. Lexus has their following but Infinti destroing Acura. I'm not buying that.
In my opinion the Honda exec's will not Honda sink. Honda is too good for that. Honda has build quality issue's like every other manufacturer has. The fire's on the CR-v I don't think will damage Honda's reputation maybe with younger buyers. Older buyers who have been buying Honda products for the last 20 years its not going to affect them that much. They believe Honda's are ultra reliable no matter what. I like Honda/Acura and have since 1994 but I just say whats on my mind no matter if its my bias or not.
"The new Accord it just does nothing for me. On the other hand if you go to an Acura dealership the new TL and new RL(from what I have seen) look pretty good."
People say that people shopping midsize sedans want bland. I don't buy that, that's what the automakers want you to think. If bland means not ugly then yeah, but are people buying a $20k car against having a stylish car? Of course not, we're all human beings and just because someone can't afford a $30k car doesn't mean they would be against a car that looks like an Acura TL.
Automakers have to reserve stylish cars for their more expensive ones and the better interiors for their more expensive ones. There are inexpensive simple ways to make an interior seem more upscale, but automakers either purposely leave it off for the refresh 3 years later or do it to not step on the toes of their higher-end cars. Can you imagine the TL having Accord styling? People wouldn't touch the TL with a 10-foot pole. Who would pay 33 grand for a car that looks like the Accord?
Actually, I've seen certain Maximas that looked really sharp to me. But automobile styling is highly subjective. One man's treasure is another man's junk. Personally, I wouldn't pay 33 grand for ANY Maxima--regardless of the fact that I do like some of them.
The current body style 4-door Accord just doesn't do it for me at all. I simply cannot believe that Honda has even sold as many of them as they already have. It's not that I think they're all that ugly when compared to other manufacturers' 4-door sedan offerings, I just think they're extremely ugly when compared to the previous three generations of the Accord. In fact, I even like the current 4-door Civic's body style better than the current 4-door Accord's body style.
Honda/Acura employs too many highly intelligent people to ever let Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infiniti totally devastate their business over the long haul. You can bet on that. Honda may be treading some rough waters at the moment, but they will be back with a vengeance before too much longer.
ron_m is obviously correct, styling of cars is subjective. I've seen the complaints about Honda's "bland" styling come and go, so much so that the cycle has grown familiar. Honda doesn't go for design elements that are edgy or flashy, they simply evolve their product lines. People complain when the new model comes out, but over time the appeal of the car persists. It doesn't spike and fall like that of so many cars. This leads to more consistent, and therefore efficient, production.
The Maxima is an attractive car, but five years from now it will look sorely dated. The Camry is a fine car, but doesn't stand the test of time as well as the Accord IMO. Older Accords still look good, and time will show that the current generation will as well.
I agree that the Civic is a nice looking car. With sufficient power alternatives (not 127/114 of the SI Sedan) it will probably bleed the Accord 4dr esp in Canada. Nice tasteful simple lines. The way Honda slices and dices the features on their cars makes for interesting reading... 4w disc brakes; split rear seats etc. I understand the profit motive but please live up to your perceived reputation (anybody ever compared a Nokia cell phone to say a Samsung?) I like Hondas, really do but worry that this current road is unfamiliar, unnecessary and with the potential of causing significant brand erosion.
of the current Accord doesn't really do anything for me. It's been out long enough now that it doesn't hurt my eyes like when it was first introduced, but it's still not going to get excited.
However, you know what they say about beauty only being skin deep? Well it's true at the other end of the spectrum as well! Underneath that love it or hate it exterior, the Accord is a great car. Roomy, comfortable, well-built, nicely trimmed interior, decent handling/performing, etc.
I'm not the type of person that buys a car solely for its looks, except for an occasional old clunker that I might have been fascinated with since I was a kid. But looks do still factor into it. If I don't find a car attractive to look at, it better have some really endearing qualities to make up for that. And in the case of the Accord, it does. In the case of something else, like the Camry, it doesn't. I don't like the style of the Camry, but on top of that, I don't like the interior and I don't find them that comfortable. Then something like an Altima, I like the exterior style of it, but I'm not that crazy about the interior quality, although it's improved somewhat for '05. But the car still had enough going for it in my book, like the price, performance, interior room (feels like some of the most generous front legroom I've ever encountered), and comfort.
"Who would pay 33 grand for a car that looks like the Accord?"
One more thought on this... while it may be true that most people wouldn't pay 33 grand for a car that looks like the Accord, I'd propose that most people wouldn't spend 33 grand on a car that looks like ANY of its direct competitors either. I know I sure wouldn't.
Honda has great product design engineers but there dominance stops there. We currently own a 2003 Honda Pilot. Before that a 2002 Honda Odyssey. I should have known better given the problems with the van. Constant electrical problems and the van had more flex in the body than a belly dancer. The transmission in the van was also a sore spot. Moldings around doors would come off. So we decided to get rid of the Odyssey. My wife really like the Pilot so we traded in the Odyssey for the Pilot. Another mistake. We had to have a new left front strut and rack & pinion (both before 10,000 miles). Now I fear the transmission is about to go, even thought the dealer said it checked out okay when we took it in for the recall on the transmission. Oh, we never did get a notice from Honda on the recall and according to the dealer we should have. The gas mileage has gone down hill since we purchased it. At first we were getting around 18 to 20 around town, pretty good. Now we average 15 which is what I get in my 4x4 Toyota Tacoma Double cab. Do I think Hondas run is over? Most definitely, They are cutting to many corners in the quest to lower cost and improve profits. As a result vehicle quality has gone down, way down.
lots of people buy family sedans with many criteria ahead of looks on their priority list. Heck, Pontiac is going to sell almost 25,000 Azteks this year, despite YEARS of scorchingly bad press, and jokes that make the Aztek their butt, too numerous to count.
Dynamically, Accord is right at the top of its class - check one out and you'll see. Safetywise, it is at least above midpack. It is a nicely finished car that is generally well put together. So it is not surprising they have sold a bunch, and will probably continue to do so for three more years until a new one comes around. But the fact that Honda is putting the side curtains in all models for '05 (only the third model year), as well as making some other upgrades and hardly raising the price at all, is a sign that the folks at Honda are a little worried...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Boy do I feel your pain. I had a first year '01 CL that did not really live up to its billing. And I've given thought about a Pilot, but I just don't know how reliable it is going to be.
Granted NO car is going to be perfect, however the perception is that Honda & Toyota are ALWAYS heads & and shoulders above the rest. If you’re spending 25-30k (or more) on a vehicle you expect a lot less trouble than on the heavily discounted domestics.
Our 04 Odyssey has been flawless so far. Just completed a four hour round trip in it while driving to an office function. It carried 5 adults and my little man to the destination and still returned 21 MPG even though our speed crept above 80 MPH quite often.
nippon: The added safety features on the Accord are just part of Honda's new focus on safety that seems to have started with the 2001 Civic. By 2006, almost all Honda's wil lhave the SCAB, SAB, and ABS as standard equipment. VSA will also become standard on more models.
I heard about this new drive to be the safest carmaker out there...I will be surprised if they make side curtain airbags standard on the '06 Civic. If they do, that would be significantly ahead of the curve in the market. I think it will be more important for them to make ABS standard across the Civic line though. The lack of optional ABS on the Civic DX/LX has brought them in for some criticism from the press on numerous occasions.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Accord is probably the most envied car in its class. Speak of size, power, fuel economy, emissions, safety and price tag/features, and it is right there at the top. No wonder it ends up being on top in nearly every comparison.
Civic is another car that is seen as a benchmark in its class. And when that happens, it basically guarantees that competition will try to match and beat “benchmark”. And to keep the title, Honda will have to up the ante, again, with the redesign.
S2000 represents Honda’s origin better than any other car in the lineup, IMO. Hopefully, it will continue to evolve, and Honda will offer a coupe version as well.
Element is a decent vehicle, but Honda could do more about its appeal to the market it was intended for. And that means, offering cosmetic and power train changes to do more than carry stuff. 20-inch wheels could do it. ;-)
CR-V sells. It spells one of the most successful Honda vehicles. This vehicle doesn’t need much, except may be, VTM-4 system for the AWD, and an optional V6 (or hybrid power).
1999 Odyssey became a benchmark, and after six years, it continues to be. The new Odyssey seems to be even better.
Pilot is doing well. Not sure how SUT will be received. But, is there another automaker that can boast every model as having above average to excellent sales success in America?
Regarding Acura, AHM went to sleep in the mid-90s. Revival of TL (1999) indicated a wake up call, this was followed by MDX. Integra was no longer the volume carrier and a low end stripped down model as it was replaced by a more mature RSX. So, here we go RSX, TSX, TL and MDX. I wish Acura would pay more attention to RSX than it has lately, but the other three volume carriers are undeniably success stories. The 1996 RL soldiered on for 9 years, and now it gets the same treatment. Success should follow, leaving only the specialty model, NSX in need of refresh.
I think, Honda has a long way to go before we can talk about saturation and running out of steam. Accord and Civic may be carrying more than half of Honda sales, but there is plenty of growth to be had in other market segments.
has announced that it intends to have all its car models for sale for MY '07 be new or updated models, the better to compete with MB and BMW. An unintended side effect of this will be that it will compete much better with Acura as well - AHM cannot stay still in the next couple of years, even as well as the TSX and TL are selling right now, and as bright as the future looks for the new RL. Remember also, the new Lexus GS cars will have optional AWD, the G35 already has it, so that will no longer be a trump card for the RL.
Somehow, I just can't see the RSX staying in the line-up after '06, unless it moves way upmarket and properly into the Acura fold. Right now its base model has manually operated cloth seats, there is no NAV option or HIDs on either trim, and the power level of the base model is so low as to be equalled by some economy sedans (Mazda3 and Lancer Ralliart to name two).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Comments
2. This has happened to a 2002 CR-V.
3. Honda is still investigating the issue. The NHTSA is monitoring it.
4. According to Honda, nothing changed between the 2002 and 2003 design.
5. Honda got the "official" message out to dealers in mid July.
6. The official word has not yet been spread to oil-changers like Pep Boys and Jiffy Lube. The deadline for the industry publication where the notice should appear had already passed when the decision was made. It will appear in the next publication.
7. There have been 10 cases since mid July when the notification went out. There is no word on whether these happened at dealers (who were notified), or industry retailers (who were not).
I'm not disputing that.
I was responding to wonderbread when he said:
"It only could happen after the 1st oil change"
That's wrong.
You can stack a gasket after any oil change. Stacked gaskets DO NOT happen "only" after the first oil change.
If Honda and NHTSA have found that the cause for some of the fires is a stacked gasket, then you are NOT in the clear after the first oil change.
If the only way these fires can happen is when the Tech fails to change the oil properly, then the primary fault is with the Tech. I don't care how "tough" it is to remove the gasket. You don't just leave it on there because you might break a nail trying to scrape it off! That's no excuse.
robert: you don't always have the luxury of knowing every possible scenario that could be causing the fires.
That doesn't mean you shoudn't try to address what are the most likely scenarios.
OK, the service bulletin was a start, but fires still happen, some at dealers (check the CR-V thread - an Edmunds member was affected even after spefically bringing it up to the service manager).
Honda should provide "Gasket Goggles" that light up red and beep whenever a gasket is still present.
Sorry, just felt like we needed some comic relief there.
We now have one Element and one 2002 CR-V. So it could be that instead of the model year cut off, it's vehicles built after a certain date, a certain range of VINs, or perhaps models that came with a certain oil filter (we know of at least 2 part numbers).
Do we know much about that 2002? Was is the first oil change? Did it happen in the past and only get reported now, or what?
Let's add some relevant facts to varmint's list:
* most fires occured after oil changes at the DEALER not Jiffy Lube
* fires have still occured (again, at the dealer) even after dealers got the bulletin
* Honda has has at least 2 different oil filter part numbers (why?)
* Gasket Goggles would be a cool name for a Rock Band
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I missed that fact. How do we know this?
Matter of fact, the new Car and Driver has a couple Honda models in it.
The TSX won a comparo and there's an article on the new RL.
IMO, Acura is doing better than Honda with their new products.
A: "Actually all the fires DID happen after the first oil change."
I'm not disputing that.
B: "It only could happen after the 1st oil change"
That's wrong.
Are you sure you’re not contradicting yourself in scenario B compared to scenario A? Perhaps, we could rephrase scenario B as follows:
“It has only happened after the 1st oil change”
What now?
ateixeira
you don't always have the luxury of knowing every possible scenario that could be causing the fires.
Discovering every possibility is impossible. But consistency in the few that you do is needed to arrive at a conclusion. True?
I can't wait to read the article, but just out of curiosity, which cars were in the comparo with the TSX?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Dude, you need reading comprehension classes.
I was responding to wonderbread when he said:
"It only could happen after the 1st oil change"
"It" being a stacked gasket.
Stacked gaskets can happen ANYTIME the gasket sticks. I've done thousands of oil changes on all kinds of cars. Gaskets stick sometimes, and it doesn't "only" happen after the first oil change.
If a stacked gasket was found to be the cause of some of the fires, you're not safe after the first oil change because stacked gaskets can happen anytime, like I said.
I am not disputing that all of the fires happened after the first oil change because I don't know.
What I do know is that stacked gaskets can and do happen long after the first oil change. You can stack a gasket at 5000 miles and you can stack a gasket at 200,000 miles. That's a FACT.
They loved the TSX.
I have driven one a few times (it is the loaner car from my Acura dealer's service bay) and very much like it, although the A/C eats up a little too much of the power for a supposedly "quick" car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It has been, since I first saw one in person.
The Subaru was the quickest to 60, the Volvo was the quickest to 120. The Volvo is a barnstormer in the top end.
The Volvo was FWD and I believe the Audi was also.
If you read post 2813, you'll get your answer.
I have personally seen stuck gaskets on cars well after their first oil change and of course, I took them off.
Since a stacked gasket has been cited as the cause for at least some of the fires, I can say with 100% certainty that it isn't just a first oil change issue.
For the 800th time, STACKED GASKETS CAN HAPPEN ANYTIME!
I don't see a number quoted on number of fires reported after subsequent oil changes. Do you mind quoting it again?
For the 800th time, STACKED GASKETS CAN HAPPEN ANYTIME!
Sure. Why? Because of design issues? Or tech negligence?
In "Oil Change 101" class, which I took when I was 9, laying on a piece of cardboard under my older brother's Chevrolet truck, the gasket is the first thing you look for after removing the filter.
If a tech can't get that part right, I certainly don't want him reprogramming the PCM!
Quit being annoying.
If you can't see it, you can feel it. If you can't feel it, you can check the old filter to see if the gasket is still there.
At the same time, I don't think a car should start on fire if someone forgets to check. Stacked gaskets happen numereous times every single day across the country and across the world. Every day.
I never claimed that I knew.
READ! READ! Can you READ?
Here, I'll quote myself, maybe this time you'll understand, but honestly, I'm getting tired of responding to your posts. If you read my posts to begin with, I wouldn't have to repeat myself.
Here:
"I am not disputing that all of the fires happened after the first oil change because I don't know.
What I do know is that stacked gaskets can and do happen long after the first oil change. You can stack a gasket at 5000 miles and you can stack a gasket at 200,000 miles. That's a FACT."
Why do CR-Vs start on fire?
Because of stacked gaskets, or because of oil filter location?
Or are both to blame?
The balancing act that they are playing with Acura means that the 'marketing guys' and not the 'engineering guys' are currently in control of the future of the company.
This is a typical GM photophobic view of the auto market place and it is likely to fail (except they change course soon).
When Honda destroys the zeal that folks have for its product who/what will be left?
I hope that in the next few years Honda will work at shuffling line-ups and cars so that Honda and Acura are a little more separated. They have never been that far apart, but instead of taking Acura further upscale from Honda in the last decade as you might expect them to do, Acura is actually getting a little closer to Honda.
I drove a Civic Si and my RSX (base) back to back, and there was precious little between them, I can tell you, warranty and styling excepted (I preferred the fastback to the squarer SI).
Someday I will have to drive an Accord V-6 with NAV and a TL back to back and see just how different those two really are. In price, they are only about $4K apart, right? And underneath they are both Accords broadly speaking, except the TL has 10% more power.
I could do the same comparison between the MDX and the Pilot. Acura needs more stand-alone models (not really counting the NSX here as it is so widely separated from the rest of the Acura line and sells in tiny niche volumes) and they need to be a significant step up from the Honda car that is most similar to them. One thing I would love to see is SH-AWD for all the Acura cars and a big power bump, because the Honda cars are going to have to step up to remain stand-outs in their own segments.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The balancing act that they are playing with Acura means that the 'marketing guys' and not the 'engineering guys' are currently in control of the future of the company.
This is a typical GM photophobic view of the auto market place and it is likely to fail (except they change course soon).
When Honda destroys the zeal that folks have for its product who/what will be left?
Can't get more simple than a Buick
Sounds like the Break-in additve has something to do with the fires, if you ask me. Would love to know the flash point of the additive and then put a TC to a warmed up manifold. Probably would explain things a bit more...
How is that possible when the break-in additive is removed during the first oil change?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but isn't that the whole purpose of changing the oil... the original oil goes away and is replaced by new (sans additive) oil?
The TSX was the least expensive by a narrow margin, but I'm sure Subie dealers are more likely to move on the Legacy's price tag, than Acura will with the TSX.
It was nice to see the Soob included (it finished 3rd). It's most impressive feature was the turbo 2.5 four. The Audi got trounced (4th) being the oldest and handicapped by the 30K price restriction. The Volvo seemed like the only contender that offered a balance of sporty feel, style, and luxury. If memory serves... the TSX took 17 of the 22 categories.
Another theory is that during the draining process, the tech may be flushing the original oil and spilling it on the manifold at that point. Careless cleanup, the car's been sitting with the engine off for 15 minutes, giving the manifold time to cool, oil change is done, driver drives off, manifold heats back up...
We all know this is the cheap way out. This is their only option since the horsepower is getting out of hand. AWD Accords, big deal. They're spending all that money on the new NSX (I assume they're still going through with it) yet on the low-end the best they can do is reuse the same platforms over and over again. That runs out? Add AWD to mix things up a little. The TSX weighs too much as it is, now we want to pay even more and add more weight to it? We want to pay 10 grand premiums for AWD, an Acura badge, and bluetooth?
Now look at Lexus. New RWD platforms. AWD across the board. Coupes, convertibles, sport wagons. New engines. Huge lineup with cars going as high as 100 grand. Hybrids. You name it and they'll have it. And Honda fans will be bragging about Acura going AWD? Lexus and Infiniti are going to DESTROY Acura.
Acura is a joke. Honda gets 94% of their profits from North America? Hmmm..I wonder why. Because people are paying huge premiums to get their hands on an Accord with AWD and better styling?
BUT don't forget that all the volume models for Lexus and Infiniti are tarted up Toyotas and Nissans. The difference is that they make niche sales of much more specialized vehicles, which gives those brands a "halo".
Lexus makes, like, 75% of its sales off ES330 and RX330 - basically tarted up Camry V-6s and Highlander V-6s (although there is a little more differentiation between HL and RX).
Which is the reason MB/BMW owners think of Infiniti and Lexus as a "joke". (at which point I remind them of the pathetic piles of C230 sedans and coupes at every dealership with big red discount signs in their windows, and that the maker of the ultimate driving machine makes more than half its sales off its cheapest model, the 325i, tee hee!).
So what isn't a joke? Well, since Lexus and Infiniti make the majority of their sales off their sub-$40K vehicles, it is no joke that Acura can give them a run for their money with its sub-$40K vehicles, which is where it is strongest (and where it is winning a bunch of comparos right now). As far as being "DESTROYED" by Lex/Inf, I don't anticipate that any time soon. Heck, if Renault so much as burps, Infiniti is going to go right back down the hole it came up so convincingly a couple of years ago. And then there were two...
:-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As far as Lexus and Infinti destroying Acura thats crazy. Lexus has their following but Infinti destroing Acura. I'm not buying that.
In my opinion the Honda exec's will not Honda sink. Honda is too good for that. Honda has build quality issue's like every other manufacturer has. The fire's on the CR-v I don't think will damage Honda's reputation maybe with younger buyers. Older buyers who have been buying Honda products for the last 20 years its not going to affect them that much. They believe Honda's are ultra reliable no matter what. I like Honda/Acura and have since 1994 but I just say whats on my mind no matter if its my bias or not.
People say that people shopping midsize sedans want bland. I don't buy that, that's what the automakers want you to think. If bland means not ugly then yeah, but are people buying a $20k car against having a stylish car? Of course not, we're all human beings and just because someone can't afford a $30k car doesn't mean they would be against a car that looks like an Acura TL.
Automakers have to reserve stylish cars for their more expensive ones and the better interiors for their more expensive ones. There are inexpensive simple ways to make an interior seem more upscale, but automakers either purposely leave it off for the refresh 3 years later or do it to not step on the toes of their higher-end cars. Can you imagine the TL having Accord styling? People wouldn't touch the TL with a 10-foot pole. Who would pay 33 grand for a car that looks like the Accord?
Well, people pay $33 grand for a car that looks like the Nissan Maxima, so they're clearly willing to buy a whole lot of ugly for that price.
The current body style 4-door Accord just doesn't do it for me at all. I simply cannot believe that Honda has even sold as many of them as they already have. It's not that I think they're all that ugly when compared to other manufacturers' 4-door sedan offerings, I just think they're extremely ugly when compared to the previous three generations of the Accord. In fact, I even like the current 4-door Civic's body style better than the current 4-door Accord's body style.
Honda/Acura employs too many highly intelligent people to ever let Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infiniti totally devastate their business over the long haul. You can bet on that. Honda may be treading some rough waters at the moment, but they will be back with a vengeance before too much longer.
Ron M.
And the Accord is still one of the most researched cars out there. Someone must be loving the restyle.
The Maxima is an attractive car, but five years from now it will look sorely dated. The Camry is a fine car, but doesn't stand the test of time as well as the Accord IMO. Older Accords still look good, and time will show that the current generation will as well.
The way Honda slices and dices the features on their cars makes for interesting reading... 4w disc brakes; split rear seats etc. I understand the profit motive but please live up to your perceived reputation (anybody ever compared a Nokia cell phone to say a Samsung?)
I like Hondas, really do but worry that this current road is unfamiliar, unnecessary and with the potential of causing significant brand erosion.
Sorry my post 2827 came out twice
However, you know what they say about beauty only being skin deep? Well it's true at the other end of the spectrum as well! Underneath that love it or hate it exterior, the Accord is a great car. Roomy, comfortable, well-built, nicely trimmed interior, decent handling/performing, etc.
I'm not the type of person that buys a car solely for its looks, except for an occasional old clunker that I might have been fascinated with since I was a kid. But looks do still factor into it. If I don't find a car attractive to look at, it better have some really endearing qualities to make up for that. And in the case of the Accord, it does. In the case of something else, like the Camry, it doesn't. I don't like the style of the Camry, but on top of that, I don't like the interior and I don't find them that comfortable. Then something like an Altima, I like the exterior style of it, but I'm not that crazy about the interior quality, although it's improved somewhat for '05. But the car still had enough going for it in my book, like the price, performance, interior room (feels like some of the most generous front legroom I've ever encountered), and comfort.
One more thought on this... while it may be true that most people wouldn't pay 33 grand for a car that looks like the Accord, I'd propose that most people wouldn't spend 33 grand on a car that looks like ANY of its direct competitors either. I know I sure wouldn't.
Dynamically, Accord is right at the top of its class - check one out and you'll see. Safetywise, it is at least above midpack. It is a nicely finished car that is generally well put together. So it is not surprising they have sold a bunch, and will probably continue to do so for three more years until a new one comes around. But the fact that Honda is putting the side curtains in all models for '05 (only the third model year), as well as making some other upgrades and hardly raising the price at all, is a sign that the folks at Honda are a little worried...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Granted NO car is going to be perfect, however the perception is that Honda & Toyota are ALWAYS heads & and shoulders above the rest. If you’re spending 25-30k (or more) on a vehicle you expect a lot less trouble than on the heavily discounted domestics.
nippon: The added safety features on the Accord are just part of Honda's new focus on safety that seems to have started with the 2001 Civic. By 2006, almost all Honda's wil lhave the SCAB, SAB, and ABS as standard equipment. VSA will also become standard on more models.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Civic is another car that is seen as a benchmark in its class. And when that happens, it basically guarantees that competition will try to match and beat “benchmark”. And to keep the title, Honda will have to up the ante, again, with the redesign.
S2000 represents Honda’s origin better than any other car in the lineup, IMO. Hopefully, it will continue to evolve, and Honda will offer a coupe version as well.
Element is a decent vehicle, but Honda could do more about its appeal to the market it was intended for. And that means, offering cosmetic and power train changes to do more than carry stuff. 20-inch wheels could do it. ;-)
CR-V sells. It spells one of the most successful Honda vehicles. This vehicle doesn’t need much, except may be, VTM-4 system for the AWD, and an optional V6 (or hybrid power).
1999 Odyssey became a benchmark, and after six years, it continues to be. The new Odyssey seems to be even better.
Pilot is doing well. Not sure how SUT will be received. But, is there another automaker that can boast every model as having above average to excellent sales success in America?
Regarding Acura, AHM went to sleep in the mid-90s. Revival of TL (1999) indicated a wake up call, this was followed by MDX. Integra was no longer the volume carrier and a low end stripped down model as it was replaced by a more mature RSX. So, here we go RSX, TSX, TL and MDX. I wish Acura would pay more attention to RSX than it has lately, but the other three volume carriers are undeniably success stories. The 1996 RL soldiered on for 9 years, and now it gets the same treatment. Success should follow, leaving only the specialty model, NSX in need of refresh.
I think, Honda has a long way to go before we can talk about saturation and running out of steam. Accord and Civic may be carrying more than half of Honda sales, but there is plenty of growth to be had in other market segments.
Somehow, I just can't see the RSX staying in the line-up after '06, unless it moves way upmarket and properly into the Acura fold. Right now its base model has manually operated cloth seats, there is no NAV option or HIDs on either trim, and the power level of the base model is so low as to be equalled by some economy sedans (Mazda3 and Lancer Ralliart to name two).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)