By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I can smell the naivety in the air...
It is not just Honda, even NHTSA is struggling to pin point at the issue. Without proper knowledge of the issue and its root cause, what do you recall a vehicle for? Think about it, and then decide what you want to believe in. If you haven’t made up your mind yet ;-)
Do you really believe it's just a coincidence, 40+ fires in the 2003-2004 CR-V?
This is unresolved, but I don't see how you can absolve Honda completely. They choose the oil filter supplier, the oil, they hire and train the mechanic, they retrain the mechanic, they presumably supervise what's going on as well. They specify the torque on the oil filter and drain plug and the viscosity of the oil. They write the procedures for service and determine the amount of time it should take.
Why does the OE oil filter gasket, the first one, stick to the block? Why does the 2nd one pinch so easily?
I think Honda has to answer these questions, not their critics.
-juice
So this: "they hire and train the mechanic, they retrain the mechanic, they presumably supervise what's going on as well." may not be strictly accurate, certainly not if "they" is meant to specify American Honda, as the dealers are all independent.
But the general point you make is undeniable: something about the CRV must be a little hinky. Could it just be an OEM oil filter that is crappy and sheds its gaskets too easily? Possibly.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If not there are two problems right there.
My guess is this will all come down to the oil filter itself, and we'll have a Ford/Firestone battle except with Honda/FRAM or whoever supplies the filters.
-juice
Dealerships in general, I think, take the attitude of "how hard can an oil change be? It is totally routine", and they do EXACTLY what you say they can't do: "You can't just toss in someone off the street". Any kid with a driver's license and a clean driving record can be employed for this one specialized function, and it became common when the dealerships started trying to compete with the quickie oil change places a few years back by offering $20 oil changes in 30 minutes or less.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-juice
BINGO!
If this CR-V situation really were just a "witch hunt" brought on by "hand wringers" that are out to get Honda, they would have chose to pick on the Accord before the CR-V.
But the Accord isn't starting on fire.
And now we're back to it being a design issue and not a conspiracy theorist hand wringing anti-Honda issue. Specifically, a design that has no room for error.
-juice
We're not talking about a random case here or there.
-juice
If you don't torque your lug nuts correctly, your wheel will fall off. Tech error.
If you don't tighten your fuel filter o-rings or screw clamps and the fuel leaks causing a fire. That's tech error.
If you don't include the locking pins on your tie rods while changing CV axles and your steering knuckle separates, that's tech error.
It doesn't matter that the CRV catches on fire when the oil filter is misinstalled. The fact remains that the truck runs just fine when the job is done correctly. There are hundreds of things that can be screwed up under the hood of a car. How about smoking while jumping a car off? BOOOM. Should they eliminate batteries altogether since they emit hydrogen when they die?
If you're right, there should have been even more Accord fires than CR-V fires.
Something about the CR-V makes the oil change more difficult than normal (safe, even).
If part of those lug nuts broke off during removal, then is it NOT tech error.
If the fuel filter O-ring pinches easily and/or the old one breaks off when you are changing it, then it is NOT tech error.
And by the way, not all the fires had pinched or double gaskets. How do you explain those cases?
-juice
They're back on sale now, and back to being shipped in - I don't know what the problem was - if anyone does, I'd like to kno, just for "gee whiz" purposes.
I worked at a Chrysler/Daewoo store as a service manager in 2000-2001 - there were several times that Daewoo did the same thing, right down to ordering us to move all their cars to the back lot and removing the window stickers.
We'd get a call to put 'em on the line again, and a month later, we'd pull 'em back off...
-juice
Honda has been selling and servicing cars longer that we've been talking about them. They are intimately familiar with the level of service given by Honda dealers, including the techs that do oil changes.
They now product a vehicle that uses that existing, extremely familiar system for service, and this problem occurs.
Techs cannot be perfect, but Honda is familiar with their level of skill and knows this better than anyone. Their designs should be FAULT TOLERANT enough to withstand the expected and normal level of service.
Fault tolerance is a quality that should be built-in, expected by the consumer, especially for a maker known for its quality and reliability.
If the CR-V lacks this quality, then perhaps Honda should mandate a more expensive oil change procedure to be done only by certified and trained technicians.
Charge $80 if you have to, but take that step.
-juice
So going back to Honda, even though they use that 2.4 in a lot of different applications, things under-hood have to be reconfigured for each use. So where the oil filter is might be just fine on an Accord, but might be dangerously close to something hot on a CR-V.
This all has me just curious enough to take a trip to the Honda dealer sometime and look under the hood of a CR-V and an Accord, just to see if there's anything that really sticks out.
Techs are carefully trained to mess up only on 2003 and 2004 CR-Vs, clearly.
CR's theory is that Honda used an engine coating that gaskets get stuck to, but Honda denied it.
I think it's a combination of a sticky or rough surface plus a low quality oil filter. Throw in some thin oil spec'd by Honda, unskilled labor they elect to hire, very short amounts of time allocated for oil changes again by Honda, and you have a recipe for disaster.
In cases where there was no double or pinched filter, I think that perhaps oil spilled during the oil change may later make its way to the hot exhaust and ignite or at least smoke.
How 'bout an oil filter relocation kit? Move the whole mess out of harms' way?
-juice
Perhaps. Because Accord, Element and TSX are using the same engine, and thats just here in North America. Japanese market gets a ton of vehicles using the K24A. So, is there something different about the way the oil system is set up? Must be.
And if it is, should the procedure to change oil change, or a standard procedure must be followed disregarding the design itself?
This may very well be a design issue, and I’m sure Honda and NHTSA are analyzing the situation. The fix may be in making the system fool proof (if that were possible).
The problem is, many here are eager to assign the blame on Honda for not doing “enough”. But, how much involvement have they had besides reading some articles in news papers/links? I just don’t see why Honda wouldn’t issue a recall, or that NHTSA would ask Honda for a recall, if root cause is discovered.
I also wonder why there haven’t been reports of 2002 CR-V fires. Somebody brought up that the investigation didn’t start until 2003, but don’t companies (including insurance) maintain history?
(just trying to take the heat off Honda, with the sludge comment ;-)
But I'd like to see how Honda would respond if it knew all its customers had their oil changes done by "fools".
Fault tolerant is a lesser standard, but IMO it is achievable, which I why I think that's what Honda should aim for.
I'll define fault tolerant as functioning properly after routine standard service.
The CR-V is not fault tolerant.
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The reason why this is such a hot topic is because there's a HIGH amount of liability to dodge in the case of these fires (we're talking total vehicle loss with the possibility of wrongful death lawsuits, and I suppose someone could try to throw in criminal negligence or involuntary manslaughter also, if people die from a CR-V catching fire). The stakes are definitely higher, and Honda doesn't want to be found liable, the dealers don't want to be stuck with the liability, qickie-lube places don't want to get stuck with it, and you KNOW the potential victims aren't going to sit still for it.
NHTSA really needs to re-open the investigation and come out with an actual conclusion, or it's going to end up a game of musical chairs, which a jury deciding who's the one left standing. They're the ones qualified to do it. The first time someone's injured or killed in a burning CR-V, this is going to all come to a head.
-juice
Honda COULD have done a mild re-design and released a retrofit kit of some sort that re-located the filter away from the hot components or installed shielding between the two. That would have been good PR, and could have been done in such a way as for Honda Corp. to still not have to claim liability, saving them money in the longer term. However, the time to do that as a goodwill PR gesture has passed; if they do it now it will be seen as tail-covering, and would be REactive rather than PROactive. Might leave them open to suits regardless. The best thing that can happen now is for NHTSA to reopen the investigation and provide a firm conclusion; something they have not done yet. That would be a roll of the dice, since if it IS found to be a design issue it's going to cost Honda AND make them liable. However, if it's found to be oil change techs, then Honda DEALERS will have to absorb liability, which will strain the relationshiop between Honda Corp. and their Honda dealers. Neither one of these things is a good thing for Honda.
You'd be surprised what modern science and a forensics lab can find out from a "destroyed" vehicle these days. Ever seen CSI?
Me too. ;-)
-juice
Me too. ;-)"
Actually part of the TV I'm watcing too much was an interview with an actual forensic scientist who was commenting on the show and how realistic the methods displayed on it are. Though he did admit the time scale they're using is ridiculous, but concessions have to be made for a 1 hour TV show, after all.
I still say Lee Iacocca snuck on the assembly line and put a dot of super glue on there...
-juice
On one hand, I've changed the oil in more cars than most people, short of a 20 year Jiffy Lube employee, if one exists. I've made mistakes myself, and I've certainly seen others make mistakes. Luckily, none of my mistakes were serious, unlike some of the mitakes I've seen done by others.
On the other hand, I watch manufacturers duck blame for repetitive problems, some dangerous, some just annoying, each and every day as part of my job. There's not a manufacturer in the US that sells cars or trucks that's in compliance with Mag-Moss.
Easier said than done. You don’t go about designing/redesigning things without knowing the root cause. At least, I wouldn’t.
That would have been good PR
There in lies the problem, too much emphasis on PR than on getting the job done right. I agree, the easier way out would be to go out and “do something”. But, that’s not why terms like “investigation” exist. Do you really believe Honda knows the problem to be related to design, and isn’t willing to issue a recall? Yes, or No?
The best thing that can happen now is for NHTSA to reopen the investigation and provide a firm conclusion; something they have not done yet.
And why do you think they haven’t provided a firm conclusion yet?
Not a yes or no question. It doesn't matter what the root cause is in this case (design or tech), because something can be done about the immediately apparent cause as a quick-fix. Oil spraying on superhot compenent bad. Keep oil from spraying on superhot component good. Weld piece of metal in place to block oil from reaching superhot component, no more flame, happy happy.
It's basically a band-aid solution, but it's a workable one. Even if it doesn't solve the pinched or missing gasket problem, it decreases the chance of THAT problem causing a bigger problem, such as a fire.
"And why do you think they haven’t provided a firm conclusion yet?"
Probably because they've closed the investigation and are not working on finding a firm conclusion.
Probably because they've closed the investigation and are not working on finding a firm conclusion.
The question was why did they close the investigation?
Is it not clear yet that there is NO SINGLE ROOT CAUSE?
The issue is oil getting on something hot enough to ignite it and there are TWO reasons why this happens on the CR-V. TWO REASONS. Not one.
#1. The oil filter is near something hot enough to ignite oil.
#2. Something happens to the oil filter causing it to leak. Whether that's a stacked gasket, a piece of sand between the filter and mounting plate, a warped mounting plate, a faulty oil filter, a filter overtightened or undertightened, WHATEVER, it doesn't matter. What matters is that vehicles occasionally leak from oil filters. ALL vehicles. Not just the CR-V. Regardless of who or what is at fault, oil filters can leak. If it involves a gasket, it involves possible leaks. Period.
I already told you what I suggest. Put something in between the oil filter and the hot component. keep the oil away from it. Simple.
And I don't see technician awareness as a quick fix because it hasn't worked. Supposedly Honda sent out updated procedures and such to their dealers and it's still happening.
"The question was why did they close the investigation?"
That's a VERY good question. And the answer hasn't been made clear by NHTSA, since their prelim report basically said "we dunno." I'd be interested in hearing EXACTLY why they closed the investigation and haven't re-opened it yet.
wrong.
end of story.
That's why it's NHTSA's job to decide who is at fault. NOT Honda, NOT the dealers, and NOT "Jiffy Lube."
Moving on...
The last time I checked, they hadn't pinned the blame on Honda, so everything on this thread is mere speculation, and should be treated as such.
Like someone said, all we have are a few news reports. Honda and NHTSA has acess to ALL of the vehicles in question. I would place MUCH more credence in the fact that NHTSA agreed with Honda that the most probable cause was tech error. Open investigation or not. I'm sure Honda is still studying this problem carefully.