What are you talking about?? what about the first year of the Odessey mini-van and its multitudes of problems, the transmission problems on the Accords/Odessey/Acura's? or the Civic recalls of late? or now the CRV fires...
Not 10 recalls for Tribute/Escape, 4. And this was back in 2001 at that, and not every vehicle was affected. Why is it ok to keep bringing up the recalls on a Ford product 3 years ago and its ok? Yet fail to mention there have been no other recalls? Yet the first year of Odessey was a nightmare for Honda, along with the present transmission recalls, and the Civic recalls get swept under the carpet??
Why is it Honda can slide and Ford/GM /Dodge cannot??? Honda is having issues and for some its ok... I feel the internet has let out more information about Honda products. More people are able to talk and voice their concerns. I have been called a Honda "hater" ect.. Heck@! I have owned Honda products! They make good vehicles, no doubt, but they are no longer the cream of the crop....
"Likewise, as far as we can tell, this issue cannot happen unless the tech fails to complete the oil change correctly ON A CR-V."
It has happened to an Element, as well. As well as many other brands of cars. It's simply the rate that is the problem with the CR-V
"I don't understand why people in here keep trying to simplify the issue by placing the blame strictly on the technician."
I don't think most people are. Most here seem to be suggesting that the Tech is responsible for the first problem (oil leak), which can lead to the second problem (fire). If the first part is corrected, then so is the second. That makes it the most reasonable place to start.
"It has happened to an Element, as well. As well as many other brands of cars. It's simply the rate that is the problem with the CR-V"
What other brands of vehicles are showing this pattern?
"Tech is responsible for the first problem (oil leak), which can lead to the second problem (fire). If the first part is corrected, then so is the second. That makes it the most reasonable place to start."
I disagree. Having worked in the oil change business for years during high school and college, I find that approach asinine.
Honda cannot control which tecnicians work on their vehicles or how they work on them.
If anyone believes Honda will be able to reach everyone who works on their vehicles now and in the future, well, I don't know what to tell you.
There was a link showing where sloppy oil changes is one of the most likely reasons for fires.
Some cars won't some cars do. It's just like that. Even if the gasket is more likely to stick on the CR-V, it's the tech's job to remove it. Just as it's the techs job to tighten lug nuts, fuel filter fasteners, and replace the oil cap after the oil change. But let's just wait and see what NHTSA says. I'm really interested.
"If the first part is corrected, then so is the second. That makes it the most reasonable place to start."
The operative word here is definitely start. Addressing the first part is fine as a short term band-aid solution while the second part is being investigated. But while saying "if the first part is corrected, then so is the second" sounds good at face value, it ends up being a specious argument. The reason for this is that since human beings are fallible and are prone to making mistakes regardless of how many times they're instructed or warned, the first part can perhaps be improved at best, but it will never truly be corrected. Which is why the only way that this problem can be eliminated once and for all is to figure out the cause for the second part and correct it.
I don't see how Honda can be responsible for human error."
They can't, which is why your example of forgetting to tighten lug nuts is relevant. I'm not aware of any situations in which a design related condition would make one car fail more catastrophically than another if a failure occurred as a result of that human error. But human error is only part of the total issue here. If the consequences of a particular human error that occurs fairly frequently are much more dire or potentially deadly with one product than with the majority of comparable products, and the reason for that is the product's design, that they ARE responsible for.
Newcar - You didn't say anything about a pattern in the post I was responding to. You've been posting as if this could never happen to another car, which is fairly important context for this issue. Leaving it out makes this problem seem unique.
"Honda cannot control which tecnicians work on their vehicles or how they work on them."
Then I see no reason for you to be supporting a recall. If education through official channels does not work, then would recalls or TSBs.
"The reason for this is that since human beings are fallible and are prone to making mistakes regardless of how many times they're instructed or warned, the first part can perhaps be improved at best, but it will never truly be corrected."
Yep, I agree with much of what you just wrote.
However, the goal here is not to completely remove all possibility that an oil leak can lead to a fire. Think about it. That's an impossible goal. What if the Tech leaves the oil-filler cap off the spout? That might cause a similar fire in any vehicle. Do we expect all manufacturers to fix that?
The goal is to reduce the rate of fires to a level that is more or less on par with other cars.
I thought the main problem with the '99 Ody was the transmission, so I'm not sure if that is 2 seperate problems.
Go price a '99 Ody used. Then price a Ford, Chevy, or Dodge van from the same year.
Please try not to laugh.
Honda stepped up to the plate and now backs those trannys with a long warranty.
They'll figure out the fires. I just wish they'd put their engineers to work instead of their PR staff.
I'm allowed to say that because my wife is in PR. It's like being a professional liar. A suave one.
A search on NHTSA's site of the 2001 Escape found 7 recalls, not 4. That's the first year they have listed.
But that's doesn't even matter, it was the nature of those recalls - wheel hubs failing and wheels falling off, steering wheels coming off in people's hands.
A comedian couldn't dream up funnier material. That's why it'll be remembered more than Honda's problems.
"Not 10 recalls for Tribute/Escape, 4. And this was back in 2001 at that, and not every vehicle was affected. Why is it ok to keep bringing up the recalls on a Ford product 3 years ago and its ok?"
From the NHTSA site:
Summary: FORD'S AND MAZDA'S LETTERS TO NHTSA DATED APRIL 5 AND APRIL 9, 2004, STATE THAT THEY WILL RECALL MODEL YEAR 2001-03 FORD ESCAPE AND MAZDA TRIBUTE VEHICLES WITH THE V6 ENGINE BUILT THRU SEPTEMBER 11, 2002. DEALERS WILL ADJUST ENGINE CALIBRATION IN THE PROGRAMMABLE CONTROL MODULE (PCM), WHICH IN ITS CURRENT SETTING, CAN CAUSE THE ENGINE TO SHUT DOWN IF THE VEHICLE IS DECELERATING AT SPEEDS BELOW 40 MPH. THE ENGINE SHUTS DOWN DUE TO "EXCESSIVELY RICH AIR-FUEL MIXTURES BEING SENT TO THE ENGINE." WHEN THE ENGINE SHUTS DOWN, DRIVERS MAY NOTICE A LOSS OF POWER ASSIST FOR THEIR STEERING AND BRAKES. THE MAJORITY OF THE COMPLAINANTS HAVE INDICATED TO THE AGENCY THAT THE STALL IS INTERMITTENT AND CAN HAPPEN MORE THAN ONCE.
"Why is it Honda can slide and Ford/GM /Dodge cannot???"
GM:
2004 Malibu/Maxx:
Summary: ODI OPENED PE04-031 BASED ON EIGHT REPORTS OF ALLEGED POWER STEERING FAILURE IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES. THE COMPLAINTS ALLEGE THAT THE DRIVER SUDDENLY LOST ALL ELECTRIC POWER STEERING ASSISTANCE WITHOUT WARNING MAKING THE VEHICLE DIFFICULT TO STEER. THE SUBJECT VEHICLE UTILIZES AN ELECTRIC POWER STEERING ASSIST SYSTEM (EPS) THAT PROVIDES VARIABLE STEERING ASSISTANCE BASED ON STEERING WHEEL TORQUE, STEERING WHEEL POSTION, AND VEHICLE SPEED. GENERAL MOTORS DOCUMENTS IDENTIFIED THE FOLLOWING TWO FACTORS THAT CONTRIBUTED TO THE ALLEGED DEFECT IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES: A. CONTAMINATION OF THE TORQUE AND POSITION SENSOR FROM THE SEPARATION OF GREASE APPLIED TO THE STEERING COLUMN ASSEMBLY. B. ELECTRICAL NOISE GENERATED ON THE POWER AND GROUND SLIP RING SURFACES OF THE TORQUE AND POSITION SENSOR. THE NOISE IS GENERATED AS THE SENSOR CONTACT BRUSHES MOVE ALONG THE SLIP RING SURFACES WHEN THE STEERING WHEEL IS ROTATED. ODI'S ANALYSIS SHOWED FAILURE RATES THAT ARE OF CONCERN TO ODI AND INDICATED THAT THE ALLEGED DEFECT IS CONTINUING TO OCCUR IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES. AN ENGINEERING ANALYSIS HAS BEEN OPENED TO FURTHER INVESTIGATE THIS CONCERN, TO ASSESS THE POTENTIAL SAFETY-RELATED CONSEQUENCES, AND TO DETERMINE THE SCOPE OF THE AFFECTED POPULATION.
Given that we've clashed on brand preferences and other topics many times in the past, it's interesting and refreshing that we're so completely in synch on this issue. But to me, this has nothing to do with brand loyalty or being a Honda fan or Honda critic. It has everything to do with the responsible and sensible thing to do. And to me, it appears that the NHTSA is finally going in that direction.
I think the problem is maybe Honda is now building cars too fast which is causing these problems with the current Oddy and CR-V. The factory workers know that Honda cars are in demand so you probably have to build a certain amount of cars in a certain amount of time probably. Another factor of these latest glitches is Honda has expanded their vehicle line-up so much since 1999 that there are going to be more problems with vehicles. The old saying goes you build more you burn more. I just had a recall with my Acura CL saying like there might be chipped gears in my transmission which affects 01-03 CL's and 00-03 and 04 TL's. To me since 99 when Honda started making the Oddy maybe Honda has slipped a little bit in build quality. I rather wait for a car than have the plant workers build it properly than the plant workers rush in building it too fast and having problems with the car. Wait, a second but I did wait a week in waiting for my CL to be built. Finally, its weird though JD powers and CR have Honda near the top of reliability survey's and we are all going crazy that Honda has slipped in build quality. I don't know its tough to figure out. It looks like Honda has sipped with tranny problems and recalls but survey's say otherwise. I know some somebody who has an 02 Acura TL with 55,000 miles on it that has had no problems with their car. Maybe you just hear all the bad stuff on the net and no good things. It beats me I'll tell you that right now.
I'd be willing to bet the same number of issues existed in previous years. It's just folk have more places to vent now. People have been complaining about Honda since I discovered Edmunds back in 1999. I'm sure there were probably the same percentage of disgruntled folk before then.
Don't blame the "plant workers" (aka the assembly line people) for the tranny issues. They are assembled in a dedicated plant, and just dropped into place along the assembly line. Line workers can be blamed for sloppy assembly though, like if your trim falls off for no reason.
Now, it sounds like Hondas problem is a design flaw, although it's possible that the tranny assembly plant is fouling up. But, considering how many companys don't have problems assembling trannys, it's more likely the design is just prone to fail, although it may be a design that just doesn't have enough build tolerance in it.
Trannys are complicated enough now that it makes sense to use an outside "super supplier" like JATCO or Getrag. WHy try to design one from scratch in house, when you have a company that does nothing but that?
Engines might be the next frontier for outsourcing. Heck, GM already buys Honda V6s! Hmm, wonder if they come with trannys?
Wonder if it's too late to copyright "engines R us"?
"Engines might be the next frontier for outsourcing."
I hope not! It's pretty lame when a car manufacturer can't even design and build its own engines. I think I would avoid purchasing one of their products on principle alone.
One of the main things that makes Hondas special is their engines, especially their 4-cylinder engines, so if they were outsourcing their engines I am sure I would not give them another look.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In my office parking lot there are a bunch of GM’s SUV Yukons, Tahoes, Envoys, and I’ve talk to everyone, and they all love'em and swear by them. CR ranks them with the dreaded black X. The Edmund forums are loaded with negatives [Go figure] All the information can definitely make a person’s head spin, to the point of not knowing which vehicle to gamble on.
Honda Transmissions; it does make you wonder what is the deal after several years, of repeat problems.
Also CVT are they more –or- less reliable?? Here in U.S there is not enough history to really gauge it.
I think that by default cars will have a higher problem rate now than they did 10 years ago because they are more complicated than ever and offer more features than ever. Compare the 2003 Accord to a 1993 Accord. Sure the 1993 Accord had a one-piece dash with softer dash materials but the 2003 has a CD changer, ABS wth EBD, LED guages, tilt/telescopic wheel, i-vtec, auto-off lights, 5-speed automatic tranny, side airbags, more room, more power with much better fuel economy, etc. However, a 2003 Accord EX automatic only MSRP's for about $3000 more than a 93 model EX automatic. You get a lot more car for the money now.
If you go to the Camry room you will find people who have problems. Some of them have even had transmissions replaced.
Heaven forbid you go to the Benz C-class room. That room makes my wallet start shaking.
There is no such thing as a "perfect" car that has absolutely no problems in any of the units built. Most of them will be trouble-free but there's always going to be something. Whether it's power window switches, transmissions, engines, etc. All cars have their downfalls that affect certain models.
The most perfect car on earth right now must be my wife's 83 Mercedes Benz 300D. Up to this day this Panzer of hers has been problem-free and just refuses to die out. we intend to keep it as a family heirloom for our children and hopefully grandchildren. Despite the fact that it sounds and accelerates like a John Deere tractor, they certainly dont make cars as trouble free today as an old Benz.
of the high-tech doodads Benz is experimenting with on the cars they build now. No travel brake pedals, auto windshield wipers, distronic, blah blah blah. Kinda of proves Anony's point. Today's Benz's are wrecking that reputation.
If I were following you and breathing that terrible smoke that comes out of the tailpipe of those things I would beg to differ with you. Even Mercedes can't figure out how to make these things clean enough to be imported (once again)in to the U.S. They may run good, and last. But they are not good for the air!
think you're out of touch with modern diesels. Have you not seen the new E-class diesel. One sweet ride. Modern diesels have pretty darn good emissions with the soon to be mandated low-sulfur diesel.
Oh, and they don't stink or sound really clattery like the old diesels. (don't think about that 80's Mercedes diesel sitting in front of your or that Dodge diesel truck sitting next you at the light. Different ball game all together!)
Honda is more Mercedes-like than Mercedes Benzes are today. Traditional Mercedes Benz-like qualities translated into a stoic form of conservatism, dependability, solidity and lasting value(some of those cars you could drive a life-time).
Unfortunately if you see the complexity of todays Benzs (ever tried using the COMMAND system), you begin to realize that Mercedes Marketeers are trying to define their cars by its gizmos and gimmicks that really do not improve the satisfaction of driving.
My favorite slogan of Honda dates back to the 1980's. "Honda: We Make it Simple". Those exact words could also have been used to describe the Benzes of the past. When I drove the new Honda Accord it feels like everything was designed to be consistent with their old slogan and hopefully that will continue without more of those recent quality problems mentioned on this message board.
The bottom line is that more complexity almost always leads to more future repairs! In the future, all car companies should keep it simple and only use technology when it enhances the durability, soliditity, performance and dependability of a vehicle.
I was referring to Dewey's '83 Mercedes. And I do not think the new ones are 50 state certified. They maybe OK on the federal side but I don't think they pass California and any other states that use the California standard. Please correct me if I am misinformed.
well it is two things. One is that low sulfur fuel is not available here in the states yet. Second is, I wouldn't use California as a great example. They would cut off their own nose to spite their face when it comes to environmental rules. Modern, low sulfur fueled diesels have better emissions than gas powered motors for some particles, worse than gas for others. Basically a draw BUT diesels get better gas mileage, so the output would be roughly the same per gallon burned, but the diesels would burn less gas.
I suspect California doesn't want to allow diesels because it is another ICE motor. I believe their ultimate goal is to push everyone to electric or alternative fueled vehicles, so why let in another, valid internal combustion powered vehicle.
Oh, and in Europe, which has pretty strict enviromental laws, over half of all new car sales are diesels.
Nothing against Californians, just tired of this state dictating automotive issues to the rest of the 49 states. Especially when they're flat wrong on this one.
that would be 45 states. And the reason is that diesels have roughly ten times the NOx emissions without the LSD (when compared with gas engines), which will be available everywhere in the U.S. in '06. Then, maybe, the new diesels will meet California's standards. Oh, except for those pesky particulates, which are linked to pesky little things like much higher rates of childrens' asthma, and other fun stuff.
The Europeans don't have to worry as much about these diesel issues because they have had low-sulfur diesel for years, and because they have a MUCH lower rate of miles driven per capita.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I am talking about low sulfur fuel and all the talk I've seen so far has had California resistant to allowing even low sulfur diesels to be sold in that state. Maybe the tone has changed recently, but I haven't seen it.
*and to vaguely steer this back on track, I hope Honda would start offering turbo-diesels for sale here in many of their models when LSD comes out.
Europeans too would probably prefer gasoline engine for environmental reasons, if not more, if the fuel weren’t so expensive (compared to diesel). In some countries, gasoline can cost 2-3 times as much as diesel.
Diesel doesn’t seem to proliferate in the Japanese market either.
actually in the UK (at least, could be more) there are actually less enviromental taxes (cough - penalties) for diesel than the petrol, as the low sulfur diesels polute less (at least by their environmental rules).
I belive Honda makes a diesel CRV for Europe, but I could be mistaken.
Honda is going to launch diesel CR-V (and FR-V), shortly. Both will use the 2.2 i-CTD I used in Accord.
But, going back to environmental tax, do you have information on the “environmental rules”, and how the tax works? What environmental measure is used to arrive at this environmental tax?
Honda will let other automakers take the lead on bringing up diesels' popularity in America. It has historically been an innovator in emissions from gasoline engines, and has its hybrid program to focus on for now. But if diesels DO take off in the U.S. in a few years, they could certainly do worse than bringing the 2.2 diesel Accord over here.
The hybrid Accord is launching as we "speak". I am curious to see if it can beat the wait-list-only Prius in sales.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
the "environmental tax" is actually the difference in taxs applied to the fuel cost at the pump. DIesel is much lower than gasoline in Europe. Tha, combined with the high cost of either (diesel is cheaper, but not necessarily cheap), led to the popularity of the compression engine.
From what I have read, some of the engines are pretty desirable in their own right, especially if you like torque. The BMW engine in the 5 series is supposed to be a tremendous combo of performance and mileage.
The CRV, and especially the element, and even the pilot, seem like good candidates to introduce the Honda Diesel to the US market. The 4 cyl Accord already get quite good mileage with decent performance, so it doesn't seem to make sense there.
The hybrid Accord is launching as we "speak". I am curious to see if it can beat the wait-list-only Prius in sales.
I'm curious to see how it fares in the marketplace. If I recall correctly, however, the Prius leaves the Civic Hybrid in the dust when it comes to sales.
I think someone explained once that the Prius enjoys higher sales because it is a dedicated Hybrid so rich people can drive them and no one will think any less of them. However, the Civic Hybid doesn't do as well because it is too much like a regular Civic so people may miostake it for a regular car and think the Civic is all that person could afford.
This is NOT my opinion. Just something I read in a review one time.
that Prius is classified as midsize, it is actually smaller than Accord for the passengers, because the extra space is devoted as much to cargo as to people. The Accord will be the first true midsize hybrid, and will have more power than the V-6, along with cylinder shutdown for highway operation, so that it should beat the 4-cyl on EPA ratings even on the highway. I actually have to go look up the numbers one of these days.
But anyway, bottom line, the Accord hybrid is in a class of one for the time being IMO, and that is why I am especially interested to see how its sales go...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda seems to have the most brand-loyal consumers. Many of these consumers don't even bother to shop around for other makes. For a time I only bought Toyota, but now I am bored with both Toyota and Honda. Personally I recommend checking out Mazda and Nissan if you love Japanese designed cars. I would test drive Accord if I wanted to buy a sedan or MDX (Acura) if I wanted an SUV, but otherwise I just don't like Honda or Toyota that much anymore and I even like some GM, Ford, Chrysler (mainly extended makes/lines) better. However, they still do have the best Hybrid technology if that's what you want.
No the Brits don't just pay at the pump. Their registration fee is based on how much CO2 their cars pump out. If any of you get CAR magazine, you'll see in the back where they have a shoppers listing of all the makes/models and some performance data that they now even list their CO2 rating. Makes a decent difference in yearly cost. (And yes the diesels put out less CO2 than comperable gas powered engines)
At least one of Honda's NSX racing teams in Japan is using twin turbos to counter controversial weight penalties imposed on them because of their constant success.
So, I think we'll see turbos before V8's. And relatively soon, too.
I read about the below-Civic model now says arrival in 2006, rather than next year as originally stated. Maybe it will not be the Fit, but rather the FR-V as juice suggests....although that FR-V does not look that different than a Fit 5-door would look if you threw about a pound of Toyota Matrix styling at it. What do the specs say - is this just an updated European Honda Jazz?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
FR-V is almost CR-V (fractionally smaller but everything about it is shared), with a differently configured interior. It wouldn’t be possible (financially) to place FR-V below Civic.
Fit (in Japan)/ Jazz (in Europe) is the most likely candidate for the slot under Civic. It is designed to be an economy car. It has a smaller exterior but (supposedly) on the inside offers as much room as Civic Hatchback. In Europe, the Jazz is offered with fuel sipping 86 HP 1.4-liter I-DSI engine (and soon to be offered with a 78 HP 1.2-liter I-DSI). In Japan, the “Fit” is offered with 110 HP 1.5-liter VTEC engine. This car is the closest thing to the Civic HB of the old days (not in terms of refinement, but fuel economy, exterior size and weight).
Comments
Why is it Honda can slide and Ford/GM /Dodge cannot??? Honda is having issues and for some its ok...
I feel the internet has let out more information about Honda products. More people are able to talk and voice their concerns. I have been called a Honda "hater" ect.. Heck@! I have owned Honda products! They make good vehicles, no doubt, but they are no longer the cream of the crop....
It has happened to an Element, as well. As well as many other brands of cars. It's simply the rate that is the problem with the CR-V
"I don't understand why people in here keep trying to simplify the issue by placing the blame strictly on the technician."
I don't think most people are. Most here seem to be suggesting that the Tech is responsible for the first problem (oil leak), which can lead to the second problem (fire). If the first part is corrected, then so is the second. That makes it the most reasonable place to start.
What other brands of vehicles are showing this pattern?
"Tech is responsible for the first problem (oil leak), which can lead to the second problem (fire). If the first part is corrected, then so is the second. That makes it the most reasonable place to start."
I disagree. Having worked in the oil change business for years during high school and college, I find that approach asinine.
Honda cannot control which tecnicians work on their vehicles or how they work on them.
If anyone believes Honda will be able to reach everyone who works on their vehicles now and in the future, well, I don't know what to tell you.
Going in circles is asinine.
There was a link showing where sloppy oil changes is one of the most likely reasons for fires.
Some cars won't some cars do. It's just like that. Even if the gasket is more likely to stick on the CR-V, it's the tech's job to remove it. Just as it's the techs job to tighten lug nuts, fuel filter fasteners, and replace the oil cap after the oil change. But let's just wait and see what NHTSA says. I'm really interested.
The operative word here is definitely start. Addressing the first part is fine as a short term band-aid solution while the second part is being investigated. But while saying "if the first part is corrected, then so is the second" sounds good at face value, it ends up being a specious argument. The reason for this is that since human beings are fallible and are prone to making mistakes regardless of how many times they're instructed or warned, the first part can perhaps be improved at best, but it will never truly be corrected. Which is why the only way that this problem can be eliminated once and for all is to figure out the cause for the second part and correct it.
They can't, which is why your example of forgetting to tighten lug nuts is relevant. I'm not aware of any situations in which a design related condition would make one car fail more catastrophically than another if a failure occurred as a result of that human error. But human error is only part of the total issue here. If the consequences of a particular human error that occurs fairly frequently are much more dire or potentially deadly with one product than with the majority of comparable products, and the reason for that is the product's design, that they ARE responsible for.
"Honda cannot control which tecnicians work on their vehicles or how they work on them."
Then I see no reason for you to be supporting a recall. If education through official channels does not work, then would recalls or TSBs.
Yep, I agree with much of what you just wrote.
However, the goal here is not to completely remove all possibility that an oil leak can lead to a fire. Think about it. That's an impossible goal. What if the Tech leaves the oil-filler cap off the spout? That might cause a similar fire in any vehicle. Do we expect all manufacturers to fix that?
The goal is to reduce the rate of fires to a level that is more or less on par with other cars.
Go price a '99 Ody used. Then price a Ford, Chevy, or Dodge van from the same year.
Please try not to laugh.
Honda stepped up to the plate and now backs those trannys with a long warranty.
They'll figure out the fires. I just wish they'd put their engineers to work instead of their PR staff.
I'm allowed to say that because my wife is in PR. It's like being a professional liar. A suave one.
A search on NHTSA's site of the 2001 Escape found 7 recalls, not 4. That's the first year they have listed.
But that's doesn't even matter, it was the nature of those recalls - wheel hubs failing and wheels falling off, steering wheels coming off in people's hands.
A comedian couldn't dream up funnier material. That's why it'll be remembered more than Honda's problems.
-juice
From the NHTSA site:
Summary:
FORD'S AND MAZDA'S LETTERS TO NHTSA DATED APRIL 5 AND APRIL 9, 2004, STATE THAT THEY WILL RECALL MODEL YEAR 2001-03 FORD ESCAPE AND MAZDA TRIBUTE VEHICLES WITH THE V6 ENGINE BUILT THRU SEPTEMBER 11, 2002. DEALERS WILL ADJUST ENGINE CALIBRATION IN THE PROGRAMMABLE CONTROL MODULE (PCM), WHICH IN ITS CURRENT SETTING, CAN CAUSE THE ENGINE TO SHUT DOWN IF THE VEHICLE IS DECELERATING AT SPEEDS BELOW 40 MPH. THE ENGINE SHUTS DOWN DUE TO "EXCESSIVELY RICH AIR-FUEL MIXTURES BEING SENT TO THE ENGINE." WHEN THE ENGINE SHUTS DOWN, DRIVERS MAY NOTICE A LOSS OF POWER ASSIST FOR THEIR STEERING AND BRAKES. THE MAJORITY OF THE COMPLAINANTS HAVE INDICATED TO THE AGENCY THAT THE STALL IS INTERMITTENT AND CAN HAPPEN MORE THAN ONCE.
"Why is it Honda can slide and Ford/GM /Dodge cannot???"
GM:
2004 Malibu/Maxx:
Summary:
ODI OPENED PE04-031 BASED ON EIGHT REPORTS OF ALLEGED POWER STEERING FAILURE IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES. THE COMPLAINTS ALLEGE THAT THE DRIVER SUDDENLY LOST ALL ELECTRIC POWER STEERING ASSISTANCE WITHOUT WARNING MAKING THE VEHICLE DIFFICULT TO STEER. THE SUBJECT VEHICLE UTILIZES AN ELECTRIC POWER STEERING ASSIST SYSTEM (EPS) THAT PROVIDES VARIABLE STEERING ASSISTANCE BASED ON STEERING WHEEL TORQUE, STEERING WHEEL POSTION, AND VEHICLE SPEED. GENERAL MOTORS DOCUMENTS IDENTIFIED THE FOLLOWING TWO FACTORS THAT CONTRIBUTED TO THE ALLEGED DEFECT IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES: A. CONTAMINATION OF THE TORQUE AND POSITION SENSOR FROM THE SEPARATION OF GREASE APPLIED TO THE STEERING COLUMN ASSEMBLY. B. ELECTRICAL NOISE GENERATED ON THE POWER AND GROUND SLIP RING SURFACES OF THE TORQUE AND POSITION SENSOR. THE NOISE IS GENERATED AS THE SENSOR CONTACT BRUSHES MOVE ALONG THE SLIP RING SURFACES WHEN THE STEERING WHEEL IS ROTATED. ODI'S ANALYSIS SHOWED FAILURE RATES THAT ARE OF CONCERN TO ODI AND INDICATED THAT THE ALLEGED DEFECT IS CONTINUING TO OCCUR IN THE SUBJECT VEHICLES. AN ENGINEERING ANALYSIS HAS BEEN OPENED TO FURTHER INVESTIGATE THIS CONCERN, TO ASSESS THE POTENTIAL SAFETY-RELATED CONSEQUENCES, AND TO DETERMINE THE SCOPE OF THE AFFECTED POPULATION.
Given that we've clashed on brand preferences and other topics many times in the past, it's interesting and refreshing that we're so completely in synch on this issue. But to me, this has nothing to do with brand loyalty or being a Honda fan or Honda critic. It has everything to do with the responsible and sensible thing to do. And to me, it appears that the NHTSA is finally going in that direction.
Now, it sounds like Hondas problem is a design flaw, although it's possible that the tranny assembly plant is fouling up. But, considering how many companys don't have problems assembling trannys, it's more likely the design is just prone to fail, although it may be a design that just doesn't have enough build tolerance in it.
Trannys are complicated enough now that it makes sense to use an outside "super supplier" like JATCO or Getrag. WHy try to design one from scratch in house, when you have a company that does nothing but that?
Engines might be the next frontier for outsourcing. Heck, GM already buys Honda V6s! Hmm, wonder if they come with trannys?
Wonder if it's too late to copyright "engines R us"?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I hope not! It's pretty lame when a car manufacturer can't even design and build its own engines. I think I would avoid purchasing one of their products on principle alone.
One of the main things that makes Hondas special is their engines, especially their 4-cylinder engines, so if they were outsourcing their engines I am sure I would not give them another look.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda Transmissions; it does make you wonder what is the deal after several years, of repeat problems.
Also CVT are they more –or- less reliable?? Here in U.S there is not enough history to really gauge it.
If you go to the Camry room you will find people who have problems. Some of them have even had transmissions replaced.
Heaven forbid you go to the Benz C-class room. That room makes my wallet start shaking.
There is no such thing as a "perfect" car that has absolutely no problems in any of the units built. Most of them will be trouble-free but there's always going to be something. Whether it's power window switches, transmissions, engines, etc. All cars have their downfalls that affect certain models.
Yes, I believe they do.
Despite the fact that it sounds and accelerates like a John Deere tractor, they certainly dont make cars as trouble free today as an old Benz.
Oh, and they don't stink or sound really clattery like the old diesels. (don't think about that 80's Mercedes diesel sitting in front of your or that Dodge diesel truck sitting next you at the light. Different ball game all together!)
Unfortunately if you see the complexity of todays Benzs (ever tried using the COMMAND system), you begin to realize that Mercedes Marketeers are trying to define their cars by its gizmos and gimmicks that really do not improve the satisfaction of driving.
My favorite slogan of Honda dates back to the 1980's. "Honda: We Make it Simple". Those exact words could also have been used to describe the Benzes of the past. When I drove the new Honda Accord it feels like everything was designed to be consistent with their old slogan and hopefully that will continue without more of those recent quality problems mentioned on this message board.
The bottom line is that more complexity almost always leads to more future repairs! In the future, all car companies should keep it simple and only use technology when it enhances the durability, soliditity, performance and dependability of a vehicle.
I suspect California doesn't want to allow diesels because it is another ICE motor. I believe their ultimate goal is to push everyone to electric or alternative fueled vehicles, so why let in another, valid internal combustion powered vehicle.
Oh, and in Europe, which has pretty strict enviromental laws, over half of all new car sales are diesels.
Nothing against Californians, just tired of this state dictating automotive issues to the rest of the 49 states. Especially when they're flat wrong on this one.
The Europeans don't have to worry as much about these diesel issues because they have had low-sulfur diesel for years, and because they have a MUCH lower rate of miles driven per capita.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
*and to vaguely steer this back on track, I hope Honda would start offering turbo-diesels for sale here in many of their models when LSD comes out.
Diesel doesn’t seem to proliferate in the Japanese market either.
I belive Honda makes a diesel CRV for Europe, but I could be mistaken.
But, going back to environmental tax, do you have information on the “environmental rules”, and how the tax works? What environmental measure is used to arrive at this environmental tax?
The hybrid Accord is launching as we "speak". I am curious to see if it can beat the wait-list-only Prius in sales.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
From what I have read, some of the engines are pretty desirable in their own right, especially if you like torque. The BMW engine in the 5 series is supposed to be a tremendous combo of performance and mileage.
The CRV, and especially the element, and even the pilot, seem like good candidates to introduce the Honda Diesel to the US market. The 4 cyl Accord already get quite good mileage with decent performance, so it doesn't seem to make sense there.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'm curious to see how it fares in the marketplace. If I recall correctly, however, the Prius leaves the Civic Hybrid in the dust when it comes to sales.
This is NOT my opinion. Just something I read in a review one time.
But anyway, bottom line, the Accord hybrid is in a class of one for the time being IMO, and that is why I am especially interested to see how its sales go...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But, speaking of Nissan, I have given it a try, and don’t like what it delivers as a package.
It would appear that Honda (along with Toyota and Nissan) is now making strides in the markets of Western Europe.
About half way down.
Is this the car that is supposed to come to the US and be slotted below the Civic?
If so it could be one heck of a value.
The profile almost looks like a BMW X5. Check the character line and the green house.
The beak is pure Honda.
Overall it's pretty tidy, and if the price is right I guess it could go after the Scion xA and xB.
-juice
So, I think we'll see turbos before V8's. And relatively soon, too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I'm not sure if that's it, that's why I was asking.
But yes, I meant under Civic (in price).
It might be the Fit/Jazz.
-juice
Fit (in Japan)/ Jazz (in Europe) is the most likely candidate for the slot under Civic. It is designed to be an economy car. It has a smaller exterior but (supposedly) on the inside offers as much room as Civic Hatchback. In Europe, the Jazz is offered with fuel sipping 86 HP 1.4-liter I-DSI engine (and soon to be offered with a 78 HP 1.2-liter I-DSI). In Japan, the “Fit” is offered with 110 HP 1.5-liter VTEC engine. This car is the closest thing to the Civic HB of the old days (not in terms of refinement, but fuel economy, exterior size and weight).