Land Rover LR3

roverdawg

Well, I think that was an unfortunate oversight. Personally I would be pleased that they had apparently test-drove it repeatedly to recreate the stalling problem with your LR3. And, in response to your complaint to them, they've offered to repay you for the gas used during diagnostics? That's pretty rare....

 

roverdawg

gw123

I do not mind them test driving the vehicle or using fuel to do so. I figure I lost over 12 gallons of gas. Even at 10mpg, I do not believe they test drove 120 miles.

 

I guess I just expect better treatment when I spend almost $60,000.

 

I do not believe they are "out to get me". I do believe that this is an incident of poor service.

ypshan

Are you sure somebody at the shop didn't 'borrowed' your car for a ride?

 

They will have to test drove it for several hours to reach 120 miles!

explorerx4

your service receipt should have the 'check in' mileage on it. also, the 'check out' mileage. i learned a long time ago, if you have a new or desireable toy, bring it in with no gas. the test drives are shorter.

ypshan

teldoc,

 

The statistics should be 25%. You have no data and thus can't assume the rest 380 owners (out of the 400) don't have problems at all.

 

A random survey (like the one by JD Power) would be the right way to get to the real story.

 

There are quite a few other forums with many problems posted by owners (I can't post their URL's due to this forum's rules). One of them even has a well compiled list of issues that summarizes the posts. It's a great list for anybody who's about to take delivery of a new LR3.

gw123

Perhaps I forgot to mention that they drained my old tank and put in a new tank to stop the stalling.

 

That's why I am upset - if you take out a tank of gas, please put all of it back!

explorerx4

i guess you were inconsiderate for making them drain all that gas

there is another scenario that can come into play when it comes to warranty work. the manufacturer decides how much the job will pay.

the tech doing the actual job can get, to put it politely, way underpaid. a job that actually takes 2 hours, might pay them 1, and they do not get the labor rates posted in the service department.

gw123

The test drive was about 10 miles.

 

They drained the gas and did not put all of it back. Either that or my fuel economy is now about 1.2 gallons per mile.

grommet

ypshan posted: "One of them even has a well compiled list of issues that summarizes the posts. It's a great list for anybody who's about to take delivery of a new LR3."
 


But do note that LRC thread has a good percentage of "new feature" requests. They aren't all quality issues. But it's a good read.

roverdawg

Ahhhh....they replaced the tank. That changes everything and you were right to be upset. Hope the stalling problem has gone away. Keep us posted. btw I pick up my HSE on Friday. Finally!

gw123

Good luck with the HSE. We picked up our LR3 yesterday afternoon after having the tank replaced (with much less gas in it).

 

It stalled again this morning.

 

This is not a good sign.

xiaodong

Why the LRNA/dealer can not come to the stop sign where your LR3 stall frequentlyand try it out for 100 times?

 

Or they simply replace the vehicle with one of the same.

 

If I were a car maker, I would be very interested in retaining the car and finding out what exactly is going on.

 

My HSE had some engine oil light on problem, dealer had it for a couple days and claimed that it was due to a faulty wire. Other than that, it was a great vehicle.

mutthead52

Count me among the evil, grommet (post 1044). I own a research company, and part of our clientele is the car market (we are a principal domestic market research corp. for a major automaker). Actually, the combination of Edmunds and other forums alluded to on this thread do constitute a sufficient sample size to ascertain initial reliability perceptual concerns.

There are two branches of research: quantitative (e.g., JD Power large-number surveys) and qualitative (e.g., focus groups--my profession). The latter researches product attitude formation, albeit from a smaller total sample size than quant., by delving deeply into the issues that form attitudes and determine perceptions.

Determining consumer purchasing attitudes, as well as recommended corporate responses to these attitudes, is the primarily role of depth (i.e., case by case, such as btn or gw123) research. Teldoc's 2-part thesis (post #1041) is quite valid; but so, I believe, is mine: LR/Ford risk failure, IMO, with this vehicle if these perceptions persist further into this model roll-out, unless meaningful changes are effectuated at both the manufacturing and dealership levels--and we don't want them to fail, because we all want this vehicle to succeed--there's nothing else like it.

Make more waves; be less content.

stever

What's your take on Consumer Report's surveys? AFAIK, they don't disclose the number of surveys returned for individual models.

 

Steve, Host

nwx

Determining consumer purchasing attitudes, as well as recommended corporate responses to these attitudes, is the primarily role of depth (i.e., case by case, such as btn or gw123) research. Teldoc's 2-part thesis (post #1041) is quite valid; but so, I believe, is mine: LR/Ford risk failure, IMO, with this vehicle if these perceptions persist further into this model roll-out, unless meaningful changes are effectuated at both the manufacturing and dealership levels--and we don't want them to fail, because we all want this vehicle to succeed--there's nothing else like it.

 

Personally, I'm glad you're involved in marketing and not teaching my kids English, because i can't make any sense of this last paragraph.

tidester

The Law of Large numbers tells you nothing if all those samples are nonrepresentative. If you sample only the A's in your telephone directory you'll conclude the probability of finding a Smith is 0. :-)

 

tidester, host

outrageous

"...i can't make any sense of this last paragraph."

 

Gee, other than "effectuated", I thought it was pretty good!

teldoc

It seemed like he sort of agreed with me, so I'm inclined to like that post. :-)

 

All I was saying is, there were about 10 posts in a row all from the same guy with a stalling problem. A casual viewer might stop by here and think it was 10 stalling problems.

 

I agree that one is one too many and LRNA need to find a fix.

 

Question for the stallers: Does it always happen at a stop? Or during a slow down? Or at crusing speed?

rockymntnrover

You folks have set up a great forum here.

 

I am in Colorado - not expecting delivery on my HSE until May.

 

Have asked local dealership if they have had any problems with stalling - they stated no.

 

Will keep you informed if I hear otherwise.

flowner

From what I understand the only case that causes a stall-- you are deceding a steep hill with no acceleration...the car stall...happens every time.

 

I wonder if you decend in command shift in a lower gear if that would happen if it does not That would then point to the transmission program as the problem.

 

So far now problems with my L3 3000K on it.

xiaodong

Mentioned earlier that the HSE was in shop last week for service and for reppairing some minor problems such as cargo cover does not retract. Everything requested were attended to other than that a new cargo cover is on back order and that a high-pitch vibration were not reproduced when car goes uphill (steep) and pickes up slowly from 10MPH to 25MPH - I will have to help them reproduce the problem when I have a chance.

 

After the car returned from service last Friday, engine oil pressure check light turned on and the car was towed back to shop on following Monday. They did not find anything wrong oil pressure or engine. They did find a piece of fault wire after opening up instrument panel and tested everything related. They fixed faulty wire (corrosion on the pin) and relocated the sun-roof drain pipe away from instrument cluster so to prevent corrosion. I am satisfied with the work done so far by this particular service shop.

 

We are overall very happy with the car and all of the 5000 miles we had put on the car. However, I did not like the fact that the car, shinny and clean, had to stay in garage over a blizzard weekend, only to be towed away on Monday in its spotless condition.

roverdawg

My dealer seemed to be stunned that I knew about the stalling problem and asked if one of their reps had mentioned it to me. I said nope and that I read it on the forums on the internet. The dealer seemed to imply that the reason for the delay in the HSEs was related (my delivery date pushed back 4 times). They also stated that NONE of the LR3s that this particular mid to high volume dealer had received had ever stalled and I'm inclined to believe them. Car arrives Monday, so fingers crossed that stalling does not occur. Other then that apprehension, I'm excited to be getting an LR3 (finally).

teldoc

Isn't it ironic, don't you think?

 

After our sample size/law of large numbers/qual vs quan arguments these past few days what shows up in yesterday's mail?

 

JD POWER & ASSOC survey! This one appears to be mostly rating the dealership but has some questions about the car too.

btn

"All I was saying is, there were about 10 posts in a row all from the same guy with a stalling problem. A casual viewer might stop by here and think it was 10 stalling problems. "

 

I counted 8 seperate people on this board who had stalling problems...

gw123

I've probably written more about this stalling issue than most - but it seems like I've had it more than most.

 

Stalled 8 times in 600 miles in 3 weeks of ownership.

 

Thanks for the advice on the gearshift - will have to try that.

 

The vehicle does NOT stall every time at this location, but this location has been the only place it has stalled. As this spot is a block from my house, the vehicle passes that spot every day, sometimes several times a day.

 

I have tried (and failed) to get it to stall consistently at the same spot.

 

I'm guessing that if I lived somewhere else, I might never notice a stall - or at least I'm guessing the stalling would be very infrequent. It is "infrequent" now (won't do it every time) but it is quite unnerving not knowing whether it will stall somewhere else.

 

As the others who have mentioned stalling seem to have fewer incidents of stalling, my guess is their vehicle only hits that "angle of descent" or whatever is causing the problem occasionally.

 

I appreciate everyone who discusses this problem and what the dealers are doing to try to fix it. I really like the LR3 overall - we just need a vehicle we're not crossing our fingers with when we take it out.

 

I suspect in the end that the fix will require some tweaking of the computer codes that handle the low speed idle. If that is what it takes, I also suspect it will take a number of complaints to LR to get the codes corrected and updated.

 

I will let this forum know where this all nets out. Replacing the fuel tank didn't seem to do much as the vehicle stalled less than 24 hours later.

mutthead52

Tidester, the issue here is public and media perception, and how that affects the product's future. This is controlled by the publicity trajectory of limited, and possibly statistically unrepresentative, case numbers.The classic instance is Audi's alleged spontaneous acceleration problems years ago, which nearly drove it entirely from the American market for a decade, and set back widespread adoption of 4WD. There were few cases and they were not proven to be quantitatively representative, but they were IMO not handled well: corporate denial, professed ignorance of the problem by dealers, difficulty of reproduction by service departments. (Do you see a pattern here?) Then came the lawsuits, then the publicity and finally the public perception was set.

Consider recent automotive history: is Ford the solution for LR that everyone claims, or a handicap?

A microcosm of the issue is exemplified by teldoc's (no offense) implicit suggestion that gw123 is one lone poster overpublicizing stalling and misleading the "casual reader", vs. btn's response that he counts 8 different posters describing stalling. Understandable frustration by btn or gw123 or others in their situation, if insensitivity and unresponsiveness across the board (LR/Ford, dealers, even fellow lucky owners) continues, could rightly lead to an "Audi" response. Given that the press was already aware of pre-production stalling--more aware than dealers--and with underlying suggestions that LR may have delayed HSE for this reason, etc, I see media prepared to pounce, and the potential making of a major issue. And it is precisely small numbers, not large ones, that create this scenario, because only small numbers are amenable to the sweep-it-under-the rug attitude that actually creates the problem.

It needs to be handled differently, like an Asian automaker probably would. Hence my recommendation that we make more waves, not less.

 

Personal note to nwx, if our hosts permit: I taught English Comp. at a major UCal university for years before moving to industry. Ironies never cease. My apologies for the dense prose--my attempt to convey complex ideas in compact form.

tidester

And then there was the Literary Digest debacle of 1936 (Alf Landon lost) and the Gallup embarrassment of 1948 (Tom Dewey lost). Both cases employed large numbers. Bad sampling almost always leads to erroneous conclusions.

 

The point is that if one wishes to invoke the "Law of Large Numbers" to make one's case then one bears the burden of demonstrating statistical propriety notwithstanding the occasional case where the tail wags the entire statistical distribution.

 

tidester, host

teldoc

Mutt,

I agree with you. There is a problem and it needs to be fixed ASAP. I didn't suggest is was just one poster who had all the stalls, only that based on this forum, a visitor might (wrongly) come away with the conclusion that a quarter to half of all LR3s experience stalling.

 

Clearly, one LR3 stalling is one too many and I subscribe to your logic that it's better to over report than under when it comes to gaining the attention of LRNA.

kdm

This stalling issue IS affecting sales, at least in my case. The LR3 has won my heart, but unfortunately that isn't enough. The LR salesperson also told me that they wouldn't reduce the price below MSRP "because they don't have to with current sales volume". While the Toyota dealer dropped nearly to invoice on a loaded 4runner - at least giving me the perception of a better deal. I'm not as excited about the Toy though, but all of these reliability issues are finalizing my decision.

gw123

So if a casual reader of this forum saw that 20 people were having a problem, how would they know that there were 80 people who logged in, thus arriving at the 25%? If I saw a forum where there were 20 people reporting problems, I would have no way to calculate the percentage that may be having issues.

 

The math is flawed. Sorry.

 

If, as someone else noted, there are 8 people who reported the stalling problem, my math would go something like this.

 

There are about 1000 posts on this forum. I haven't a clue how many different people that represents, but I know it cannot represent more than the number of posts, in this case 1000. If you assume that the average number of posts is 10 (seems high but I'll go with it for now), then the number of people reporting the stalling problem is 8 out of 100 (8%) at the higher end or 8 out of 1000 (0.8%) at the lower end. Since we also know that the 1000 posts are not written by 1000 different people, the percentage is higher than the 0.8% lower limit. The fewer the number of posters, the higher the percentage that the stalling problem represents.

 

I first signed into this forum as an LR3 advocate and booster. If you see my first posts, they are questions on the LR3 or statements on how good I thought the LR3 was. It was only after the stalling that I reported the problem.

 

I'm not sure you can reach any conclusions as to the mix of readers/posters of this forum to the populations of LR3 owners as a whole except to say that the posters here have internet access.

 

As Mark Twain said, "There are 3 types of liars. Liars, damn liars, and statisticians."

tidester

The actual Mark Twain quote is:

 

"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."

 

tidester, host

gw123

Thanks for the correction. I like my quote better, so maybe I'll use it as my own.

 

I was hoping to be one of the many supporters of the LR3 (and I still like the truck).

 

We'll see..............

stever

Top 10 AWD/4WD Vehicles for 2005

 

Steve, Host

outrageous

"The vehicle does NOT stall every time at this location, but this location has been the only place it has stalled. As this spot is a block from my house..."

 

Has it always stalled when leaving your house--i.e. when the vehicle isn't yet warmed up? The transmission, for example, can take a while to warm up, and I'm wondering if there's a connection.

gw123

The transmission does sound like it's slipping when cold.

 

The downhill stop that causes the stalling is on the way back home - not when leaving the house. It's uphill when leaving and hasn't stalled then.

 

Maybe the LR3 is mad about coming back to get parked?????

todde

I've had mine for 2 months with 5900 miles and have had no problems.

4x4buff

I was seriously considering to buy LR3 SE model and in fact I went for test-drive with a friend as well. I've been happily driving my 2002 Pathfinder LE and not a single visit to dealer for whatsoever reason in last three years. However, after reading this forum suddenly I am not very enthusiastic about LR3. Believe me I actually do off-roading and I thought LR3 had awesome off-road features...

 

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/parminder_singh_devsi/my_photos

           ...and now this is disappointing that they are having all kind of minor problems like side-body panels falling off to stalling. I am not going to buy a vehicle which wouldn't start in local mall's parking lot let alone on a lonely off-road trail somewhere in Mohave desert.

           Is there any central official database which lists all the problems mentioned by all LR3 owners? How can potential buyers make informed desisions?

           My Pathfinder has been running great in all kind of weathers and on all kind of trails so I am willing to wait for upgrade for a year to see if Land Rover really fixes all the problems otherwise it will be off my list just like VW's Touareg, excellent vehicle on paper!

lr3_magic

Placed my order for a fully loaded HSE two weeks before Christmas. Salesman said that the next date the dealership could place and order with LR was 1/25/05. Checked this week to see if my order had been placed and the salesman said LR was only allowing the dealership to place factory orders for Freelanders at this time. He didn't know when they would be allowed to place factory orders for LR3 HSE models. If anyone has anymore information concerning HSE factory orders I'd be interested in hearing it. I remember an earlier poster saying that all of the 2005 HSE production had been sold and it wouldn't be until 2006 before you could order one. Hope that isn't the case. Might not be willing to wait that long.

grommet

That's probably BS. Remember, a loaded US HSE is 3 whopping options away from a loaded SE. There is nothing "special" about it. No, the HSE is not "sold out until 2006." Give me a break.

 

However, if your dealer is small... they may have limited allocation of LR3s. So look elsewhere.

nwx

Personal note to nwx, if our hosts permit: I taught English Comp. at a major UCal university for years before moving to industry. Ironies never cease. My apologies for the dense prose--my attempt to convey complex ideas in compact form.

 

No offense intended, mutthead52, I feel your posts are interesting and definitely worthy of note. It was merely my pathetic attempt at keeping you on your toes...

If what you say is true then how do you explain Ford's stated statistics placing the Explorer at the top of the list in sales of SUVs in this country, despite repeated reports (independent and "government") that it is amongst the most unsafe vehicles on the road? Is the general buying public oblivious to reported facts or are they suspicious of the accuracy of those facts to begin with?

One important point to consider is the fact that the Land Rover marque still holds considerable caché depite the fact that it has developed a horrible reputation for dependability. Many jilted Discovery owners and people looking to upgrade their ride are willing to gamble $50,000+ on this new vehicle. What is that all about?

teldoc

GW123

We're arguing about minutia but that won't stop me. The other part of my original post said, if you own an LR3, there are generally two reasons you come to this forum: 1) because you're really passionate and this SUV is more than just a vehicle or 2) something is wrong and you want other LR3 pilot's opinions. I know from past experience many of my first visits to auto message boards were because something was bothering me. So I'm saying the sample population that comes to an auto message forum isn't statistically pure compared to all LR3 owners. In some ways it seems like going into the dealer service waiting room and taking a poll from whose sitting there.

roverdawg

I ordered an HSE over 5 months ago and it has yet to arrive (delivery date pushed back several times), though I'm now told "it's on the truck" and apparently has now been on said truck for 2 weeks??? From what I can tell, a number of HSEs were held up. Why, I don't know, but the indications are that the stalling issue may have been one issue and a problem with certain Heavy Duty packs specifically the tow electrics may be another. I'll wait for this truck to arrive but in the meantime I searched around the country for HSEs. Found a few but most were missing one or more of the packages that I wanted. Before I decided to hold on, I did manage to talk to Tiffanie with Land Rover Encino and they just got in a bunch of HSEs and not all of them are pre-sold if anyone's interested.

roverdawg

There's a thread on another LR forum that goes into detail on an LR3 Tow Electrics problem. Apparently, this chap is friends with one of the dealers and has (to paraphrase) seen a list of chassis numbers that have been quarantined (some may have been already sold)as there's a potentially hazardous situation if the tow system is hooked up???? I'm a big LR3 fan (and have a HSE on perpetual order, hope it's not one of the 'quarantined' ones) and hate to mention such things (hopefully it's isolated to a very small VIN range) but it's probably worth mentioning.....

sport320

Well my SE has about 1900 miles on it and no stalls yet <wink> of course I live in Florida and the stalls seem to related to hills, which are not very common here. Overall, I love the truck and the way it drives.

 

First the question, how many people use the suspension access mode? I am trying to get into the habit of activating it every time I park.

 

Second, while parallel parking this past Wednesday, I heard a "clunk" and then the steering wheel became hard to turn. I got out and sure enough, the power steering fluid was pouring of the truck. After having it towed to the dealership, I have been informed the "steering rack" cracked and they have ordered a new one, which will hopefully be here Monday. Now I don't do any significant offroading, but I often use the access mode and I am wondering if that could have somehow caused the problem. Any ideas?

 

Also, I have noticed the "jump" when you initially step on the gas, especially from a rolling stop or when accelerating from a slow speed. My dealer provided an LR3 with 1400 miles on it as a loaner and the "jump" is even more pronounced, it also had an issue when I put it in reverse and the engine revved before going into gear, like it was stuck momentarily in neutral. Has anyone experienced that type of behavior?

 

I too hope these are problems LR can get solved. I think the truck is great and really enjoy driving it. I will post more details once the truck is fixed and I get more information on what it means for the steering rack to "crack".

 

Hoping this is fluke and not a trend.

ronprx

For all the talk regarding stalling on this board, I visit three other LR3 message boards and the only post regarding stalling is from the same individual discussing it here. I think it is a much smaller issue

stevenj

thinking about the LR3 over the XC90. Wife and I just like the styling better. What's up with the DVD though. Dealer says they can't get any because of problems, only aftermarket. Autoweek says dual headrest screens available this summer in the LR3 sport. Dealer said this isn't available, no mention of available later. Volvo has the dual screens and a V8 now available??

gw123

Teldoc, I like the intellectual debate. I know that was one premise, but I also know that I first posted to this board (several times in fact) as a big LR3 fan and supporter. So I would have started out in the "fan" camp according to your premise. I only posted my issue after I had my LR3 (I probably had half a dozen posts before that). Had I not had the problem, my posts would have been about the praises of this great truck. Anyway, my only point was to understand if others have stalled and what the remedy was. I'm not here to bash the LR3. I usually don't stand on a platform and declare how stupid I am by shelling out over $50k for an SUV that doesn't work. I, like many other on this forum, looked at a number of SUVs and believe the LR3 hit the sweet spot of design, functionality, and performance.

 

As far as my truck, they replaced several sensors and the catalytic converter yesterday and I hope that does the trick.

 

As far as my dealership problem, it seems like the problem may be one service technician. I began dealing with my salesperson, the sales manager, and the general manager, and they all exhibit the type of customer service I was expecting from LR, which is very good. We've gotten a loaner for both times it went in, and they filled the tank yesterday when I complained about the missing gas.

 

So they are making a positive effort.

grommet

The "dealer install" OEM DVD was haulted temporarily for sale due to a supplier defect/change that prevents the unit from playing through the car stereo. (Posted earlier in this thread.) In my opinion, there really is no advantage to buying the OEM one. It's not factory installed. Speak to a local installer and save money. (Look back in this thread, there was more DVD talk.) I'm sure they can custom install tiny screens into the headrests if you'd like.

 

There is no "LR3 Sport." The Range Rover Sport is different beast and has different options -- US specifications & pricing have not been released. And the Volvo isn't a Land Rover.

costaricafan

Land Rover initially represented that the car was made with Intrusion and Glass Break enabled alarm. It was not. All US models made thus far apparently do not have these features. They do on the UK models and The Freelander apparently has a better alarm than the LR3. The only alarm on the LR3 are contacts on the doors and rear door. They recently changed the verbage on the website to reflect what they left off. I do not know how this is going to be remedied. This is a very serious problem as if you add third party components into the existing electrical system, issues of warranty and liability (false airbag deploymet) might come in to play. As I read of an earlier burglary in this forum, the thieves know this car is a sitting duck. Good luck. If I am in error on this please advise. Thank you.

brauna

have had car for 1 month / 1000 miles and love driving it with no problems. BUT, twice the car's engine has shutoff on it's own while driving. Both times the car was on a big slope (?) and the radio and heating both full power (?). Any thoughts on why this happened?