Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

nippononly

by touring local dealers looking to see what they have in the great deals department. Found a Honda dealer with two leftover Accord EXs including one with a stick, yay! Advertised with mirror hangtags at a price that is about $3500 off sticker, so about $19,5 for the stick. Nice car. They also have leftover '07 Civics advertised at $2000 off sticker, including the hard-to-find 4-door EX with a stick. Tempting.

They also have an '05 Civic HX manual, a hard car to find used, in really nice condition with 53K miles, that has me tempted to trade the Echo (gasp!). But they have it advertised at $13,995 (certified) - I assume they would take $12K with a bit of finagling, but it still seems very high for a car that sold new for like $16K (maybe $17K?) 53K miles ago. Even if it IS a Honda.

Still, I may be making another visit out there. If I do, it's likely I would come home with something new, a fact I am keeping very closely in mind!

tifighter

As far as I know, no one else has seen one in the wild. A picture would have been worth a few bucks to someone (Edmunds?) I'm sure. Nice find!

kyfdx

They had it at the Detroit Auto Show in January, but that's the first report I've heard of one on the street..

In the convention center, I thought it was pretty generic looking (like the current model).

corvette

Did they have it at the Cincinnati Auto Show, or did you go to Detroit?

The Louisville Auto Show had the old model Pilot. I'm surprised at how much the new Accord's interior reminds me of the TL.

tifighter

Yeah, that's what I meant by the wild The one making the show circles is the prototype, but I wonder if what he saw was a pre-production car? Since the show car got a lukewarm reception, perhaps they have made some changes for production?

kyfdx

Yeah... I went to Detroit.. The Cincinnati Auto Show (and I use that term loosely) is really geared to what is in the showrooms now...

The Pilot at Detroit was pretty much the final edition, from what I could tell.. But, I didn't spend a lot of time looking at it..

There was this really cool Audi R8 just down the aisle.... and, well, you know..

jlawrence01

Yeah... I went to Detroit.. The Cincinnati Auto Show (and I use that term loosely) is really geared to what is in the showrooms now...

The only problem with the Detroit Show is that Cobo Hall is just too small a venue. If they had the same room as Chicago to put on the show, it would even be better.

I generally get free tickets to go to the shows (when I have the time) and have to admit that the best experience was getting into the Detroit show on Media Day last year.

kyfdx

Room at the Marriott, dinner at Hard Rock, gas for 560 miles...

Free tickets would have been good, but that was a minor expense...

nippononly

Went back last night with every intention of bringing home that Civic HX, and they had already sold it. That HX is one hard car to get your hands on. :-(

tifighter

Sad outcome, but I like your moxie. So says the CCB in me...

mark156

The new Pilot that I saw in California was silver and had a dealer tag on the back.... not a manufacturers tag. And, I didn't have my camera with me, darnit! :mad:

Mark

PS. I didn't get a chance to go to the Los Angeles auto show last year but will try this year. They moved the show from January to December.... which didn't work for me as I'm not usually in California in December..... but, I going to make plans this year to attend.

woodyww

leftover Accord EXs.....$3500 off sticker

For 4 cyl. models? Seems like a lot of car for the $$. And a way better value than a 3 y.o. civic with 53K miles at $14K (I think).

I'd go for one of the new leftover civics or accords......you could probably drive one for 2-3 years & not lose much--enjoy the Honda resale value by buying new......

tifighter

It's true; that Accord deal sounds like a no brainer. Resale will be a given as its a Honda, but I think that nicely equipped 4-cyl models will do even better than before as gas prices continue to rise.

But we are talking about Nippon; he's thinking Echo replacement. I'm guessing he won't be willing to lose much mpg versus his current sled, no matter how good the deal.

nippononly

that if I could somehow get that Civic HX out of their hands for around $11,5, maybe $12K, I would do it. Definitely not $14K, I don't care if it IS certified.

But oh well. They have leftover '07 Civic EX coupes, a couple with a stick, and I guess if I am reading the sign right they would sell them for $17,300, but that's more than I really want to spend. And the mileage isn't as good as my Echo.

As for the Accord, well I have a soft spot for the old Accord, and that EX stick is a nice car, which is a great deal at $19,5. The one they have left is silver though, not my fave. But mainly, I think if I am going to get an Accord, I am going to wait until the deals start on the amazing-looking coupe version of the new Accord. I am thinking EX stick 4-cylinder, maybe in a year or two. I really like the look of the new one. Much much MUCH better than the old coupe. And it would replace my Matrix probably....it's got the Matrix beat on looks. :-)

corvette

I was really impressed with the Astra. A well-equipped small car, nice styling, good value. Not sure what's with the lack of a memory seat in the 3-door--Dad's Beetle had this. That said, the manual memory seat in the new Golf/GTI they had on display didn't seem to work right, either.

I was really shocked by the momentary-contact turn signals and wipers in the Astra. Just like the current-model BMWs have. I don't care one way or another, but I do think they will generate a lot of complaints (at least the wipers will, most people don't use their turn signals and won't notice that part).

lilengineerboy

As for the Accord, well I have a soft spot for the old Accord, and that EX stick is a nice car, which is a great deal at $19,5. The one they have left is silver though, not my fave.

Yeah that is about the deal I got on my '07 EX 5speed in July. Mine is that bland graphite color (the neighbor calls it "pavement"). Its been fine, I have been getting 31-34mpg on a 30 minute highway commute to work, so I have been pleased with that. It keep thinking how it's not as fun as the '93 but then I remember all the suspension upgrades and grippy tires that car had. The old Accord got poor mpg on winter gas though, I couldn't do better than 28mpg or so and I would hardly ever drop below 30 in the spring/summer.

guss

I liked the Astra also, I thought it was a terrific car for the money. I was amazed that the 3 door has seating for 5 , while alot of larger coupes only seat four. I only wish they had started building it here instead of having to wait at least a year.

kyfdx

Audi A3.. I really liked this car... Did a test drive at the dealer about 18 months ago... Somehow I missed one key problem. I can't get in the @$#% car!! Seriously.. The A-pillar is slanted back at a low angle, and with it being a 4-door and small, the B-pillar is pretty far forward.... At first, I thought the last person had left the seat pulled forward, so I stopped halfway and started over... but, no.. the seat was all the way back.. I guess I was so intent on driving it before, that I overlooked ( :surprise: ) the fact that entry and exit are almost impossible for me.. Bummer..

VW GTI: Almost a twin, mechanically, to the A3. No problems with entry/exit, even on the 4-door.. I could see myself in this..

2009 Jetta Sportwagen.. Very cool... I guess it comes this summer?

Ford Focus.. I really like this for a small car.. either the coupe or the sedan.. and, with Ford's massive discounts, it's pretty cheap...

Honda Fit.. The more I see it up close, and sit in it.. the less I like it.. It screams cheap..

Scion xD.. I like this a lot more than the FIT, but still pretty spartan..

BMW 1-series... Less and less attractive, each time I see it..sort of tubby looking.. Of course, they killed 80% of the market, when they didn't bring it over in sedan or 4-door hatch form..

Porsche Cayman.. My favorite car, right now.... at any price.

Acura...any model.. I swear... they all put me to sleep.. good cars... very uninteresting..

Subaru Impreza, WRX, STI, etc.... big improvement over the previous model... STI is breathtakingly expensive... even with 300HP, it's incredibly over-priced..

'09 Forester.. Now, looks more like an SUV, and less like a wagon.. Might just kill the Tribeca..

That's all I can think of right now...

roadburner

BMW 1-series... Less and less attractive, each time I see it..sort of tubby looking.. Of course, they killed 80% of the market, when they didn't bring it over in sedan or 4-door hatch form...

I agree; the coupe and droptop are both awkward looking at best. And not all that much lighter than an equivalent E92. No limited slip option either.

lilengineerboy

VW GTI: Almost a twin, mechanically, to the A3. No problems with entry/exit, even on the 4-door.. I could see myself in this..

I borrowed a DSG GTI 4dr from work last week. It took me a second to get used to the steering wheel being D shaped and how thick it was, but it was a visual adjustment, it felt great to me the entire time I was driving it. I personally would just go for a traditional manual as opposed to the DSG, but if I commuted on the 405 or lost a leg...

Ford Focus.. I really like this for a small car.. either the coupe or the sedan.. and, with Ford's massive discounts, it's pretty cheap...

I miss the Focus ST w/the 2.3 liter which was available after they killed the SVT Focus. Now it just says "think of me as an iPod accessory..."

Subaru Impreza, WRX, STI, etc.... big improvement over the previous model... STI is breathtakingly expensive... even with 300HP, it's incredibly over-priced..

It is just terribly bruised from its fall out of the UGLY tree...

roadburner

I borrowed a DSG GTI 4dr from work last week. It took me a second to get used to the steering wheel being D shaped and how thick it was, but it was a visual adjustment, it felt great to me the entire time I was driving it.

I really liked the GTI, but VWoA's stupid option bundling policies and the fact that none of the Louisville dealers hire service techs with opposable thumbs knocked the VW out of contention.

jlawrence01

My brother FINALLY landed a deal for his 15 yo son ... 1999 Nissan Altima with 120k miles for $2200. In good mechanical condition and with a variety of dings, broken aerial and what you would expect with a 9 year old car.

kyfdx

Wow... that sounds like what I'll be looking for in about 18 months.. Good deal!

guss

have me baffled. I know 3 people personally that own VW's( 2 are diesels btw) and they love them, never had any real problems. They do complain about VW customer service though.

Everything I read in consumer reports and on this site say they are awful in reliability and to stay away from them.

I am a big fan of the GTI and the A3 too, but since I usually buy 2 to 3 year old cars I would not want to gamble on my database of 3 people .

nippononly

I have the same concerns. There is a used GTI for sale here locally, an '04 with 53K miles, for $11K. Seems like a good deal, is in very nice shape. But former owners and consumer mags warn against the sludging 1.8T and VWs in general that are out of warranty. And unlike you, of the 3 people in MY sample space of friends with VWs, only one had relatively few problems. The other two had nightmare cars, always in the shop. It makes me very cautious. And not surprisingly, the GTI I referred to has been sitting on that lot for months and months.

fezo

"I really liked the GTI, but VWoA's stupid option bundling policies and the fact that none of the Louisville dealers hire service techs with opposable thumbs knocked the VW out of contention."

The no opposable thumbs seems to be a longstanding VW thing. Even in the day of my dreaded Rabbit. That car was actually a lot of fun when it ran. The problem was that that was the exception rather than the rule.

guss

I don't think Consumer Reports categorizes the diesels any different, but I think that is what helps my sample of 2 out of 3 being diesels. The diesel guys opinions I think may have to be thrown out because the diesel cult. Once you buy a diesel , everything else is a lesser vehicle to them.

roadburner

Even in the day of my dreaded Rabbit. That car was actually a lot of fun when it ran. The problem was that that was the exception rather than the rule.

That was the other thing that bothered me; the "other" VW forums always had several active threads going on reliability issues and other problems.

akangl

the "other" VW forums always had several active threads going on reliability issues and other problems.

After owning 2 VWs I don't think I'd travel down that road again. The first one was a 94 Jetta 2.0 bought in 97 with 30k on it. Fairly good car, but had its issues, to its credit the poor little beast was pretty beat up. Sold it 3 months later with 45k on it.

Second one was an 01 Jetta 1.8T purchased new in 2001. I loved that car so much, it did great for a long time and then out of the blue the battery kept dying. Finally I got so mad at the dealer I had the darn car towed in. Got it back 3-4 days later with a lovely ring in the paint where a coffee cup had been set down and a DENT in the quarter panel that strangely resembled a BOOT! Never could prove it, they blamed the tow truck driver (yeah right, I've known him for 15 years) and he laughed and blamed them.

I think I got about 10 miles with the car that day and it died. They had to tow it back again and replace some computer or something. I got rid of the car shortly after that, put a total of 20k miles on it.

Now the only VW dealer is 300 miles away, always seeing a parade of VWs on tow trucks headed for anchorage. VW pays for the tow down, but people are on their own to get the plane ticket to go get their car that's now 300+ miles away!

woodyww

Just curious--what kind of mileage do you get with your current cars--a Matrix, & an Echo, is that right? Do you put on huge miles, or just dig getting great mileage (who doesn't!)?

Of course for a lot of people, like me, a stick 4 cyl. accord would have awesome mileage. Wish they made a wagon, or hatch at least.

I got 16 mpg yesterday doing around-town errands in my 5-series wagon.....seems Ok for the size of car, cargo capacity, + built like a (German) brick outhouse......(for that Combat Driving in the metro-boston area)....

woodyww

Worst car I ever owned (besides the '79 Cheby p/u w/the exploding Olds diesel engine) was a 1990 Passat. Pretty car, bought it at 6 mo. old so saved about $6000. Good thing, because in the few months I owned it it had BOTH trans. & engine problems. + other issues. Dlr. service: abysmal.

Was able to trade it w/the warranty for about $1K less than I paid.....(whew!)......

corvette

...the fact that none of the Louisville dealers hire service techs with opposable thumbs knocked the VW out of contention.

Yep. The star tech at Neil Huffman died several years ago in a motorcycle crash.

nippononly

"Just curious--what kind of mileage do you get with your current cars--a Matrix, & an Echo, is that right? Do you put on huge miles, or just dig getting great mileage (who doesn't!)?"

The Matrix pulls 34-35 mpg, the Echo pulls 40-41. Both are running averages covering more than 10K miles. I could maybe "settle" for the 31-32 mpg that I expect an Accord 4-cyl stick would get me, and would also get a car with a nicer interior and better driving interface than the Matrix. But I like the Matrix's looks better, and also its cargo-carrying capacity. And it's a bit more limber than the Accord through the corners too (oughtta' be with the shorter WB and lighter weight).

I dig great mileage on principle, but it is also a very pertinent aspect of any car I own as I drive about 30K miles per year. Some of that, I should add, is miles put on for my job that I get reimbursed for.

I have to admit I would be very interested in the new diesel Jetta Sportwagen, or even just a diesel Rabbit, that is supposed to be available this summer/fall. But once again, the bugaboo of questionable reliability crops up...and if gas prices continue to escalate through the year, I would imagine we might see hefty ADM applied to new VW diesels, another turnoff.

tifighter

Did you have a 4-runner before the Matrix? Just trying to remember...

Any TDI was an automatic ADM up here in Seattle, and that was before ULSD or $100/barrel oil. I can only imagine what these babies are going to go for now. And what's worse, Seattle will pay it just to be able to put a biodiesel sticker on their car for all to see...

I'd like a diesel for my next car; Honda or perhaps a Subaru in 3 years. I just hope that the ADM we're sure to see on all of them will return to normal by then. :confuse:

stickguy

that ALtima, and that price, is exactly what I am trying to find! GUess I better keep looking.

british_rover

First time I drove a new BMW with those funky turn signals/wipers i was like WTF is this BS? That is worse then the smart key business. I want to have a physical mechanical connection to some parts of the car and the controls stalks are one of those things.

lilengineerboy

The Matrix pulls 34-35 mpg, the Echo pulls 40-41. Both are running averages covering more than 10K miles. I could maybe "settle" for the 31-32 mpg that I expect an Accord 4-cyl stick would get me, and would also get a car with a nicer interior and better driving interface than the Matrix. But I like the Matrix's looks better, and also its cargo-carrying capacity. And it's a bit more limber than the Accord through the corners too (oughtta' be with the shorter WB and lighter weight).

My Accord has been 30-35 on a highway commute. I couldn't get past the seating position/driving dynamics of the Matrix/Vibe. The GT I drove was responsive as long as my foot was more than 2/3s the way down on the gas (which required premium). CUVs all felt kind of tippy to me, we actually looked at it 2x, once before we got the Legacy and once before I got the Accord.
I think the Accord's biggest issue is the tires are set for highway and economy as opposed to lateral grip or braking performance.

nippononly

Those Accord seats were fabulous in the '07 - definitely an advantage over the very so-so seats in the Matrix. I have not yet sat in the '08 Accord, but I imagine they are at least as good as before?

tifighter: yeah, I had the 4Runner before the Matrix. When gas hit $3/gallon for the first time, I decided my offroading days were over! :-P
4Runners are great trucks (especially the ones up until '02), but they are very impractical for someone who drives a lot, with gas like it is now.

corvette

I've sat in good seats and bad seats, but even with the good ones, my backside goes numb after more than a couple of hours in the saddle.

roadburner

First time I drove a new BMW with those funky turn signals/wipers i was like WTF is this BS? That is worse then the smart key business.

That is a perfect example of BMW "improving" something that wasn't broken in the first place. You get used to it, but what's the point? I think I'm going to continue boycotting BMW until they start putting dipsticks and limited slip diffs in their cars...

corvette

Looks like Opel is doing it, too.

I prefer a real dipstick--possibly in conjunction with a "low oil level" idiot light, in case you forget to check, but I actually like the idea of the smart key, as it would mean I can just leave the keys in my pants, coat, or briefcase.

fezo

Let me get this straight - they stopped putting dipsticks in? (not to be confused with "look at that dipstick driving the BMW"... kind of like the porcupine....) What are supposed to do? Wait for the idiot light? Listen for the sound of the motor seizing? I'll hate myself for asking but when did they hit on that bright idea?

british_rover

Several years ago and Merc has done the same thing. There is an oil level sensor built into the instrument cluster but I wouldn't trust it. I think the first Merc I worked on without any oil dipstick at all was a 2004 C320.

corvette

There is a menu to check the oil level in the onboard computer--I think it measures in 1/4 quart increments. If it gets 1 quart low, an idiot light comes on.

nippononly

Since I can't imagine that a dipstick was a super-costly thing to have under the hood, what was the deemed advantage to removing dipsticks? Or, to put it another way, what was it hurting to have them?

Edit: in the same way that I will never buy a car without a stick shift, I also refuse EVER to buy a car without an oil dipstick. No way. I am already pissed enough that there is now a FLOOD of cars coming on the market without a separate coolant temp gauge on the dash.

roadburner

Since I can't imagine that a dipstick was a super-costly thing to have under the hood, what was the deemed advantage to removing dipsticks? Or, to put it another way, what was it hurting to have them?

Edit: in the same way that I will never buy a car without a stick shift, I also refuse EVER to buy a car without an oil dipstick. No way. I am already pissed enough that there is now a FLOOD of cars coming on the market without a separate coolant temp gauge on the dash.

It's typical German arrogance(I'm 1/2 German so I can say that). The techie geeks love the new setup as they no longer have to risk soiling their hands when they check the oil. Of course if the sensor goes south(as they have in the past and will also do in the future) there is no way to verify the sensor's accuracy short of draining and measuring the contents of the sump. If I'm doing a track event I'm screwed. Of course, the majority of new Bimmer drivers think Trailing Throttle Oversteer is a band that once opened for Kansas. They are more concerned with how well their Bluetooth phone pairs up and the number of envious glances they attract driving down the street at 20 mph.

roadburner

After seeing more and more new Accord and Camry sedans on my daily commute, I'm convinced that the Honda and Toyota stylists were each given a model of the current 5 Series and told, "See if you can make this even uglier."

woodyww

BMW is supposedly making a couple of their diesel models available to the USA sometime soon. The reviews I've read of bmw diesels-- say greatly superior mileage + great performance. Now, how to afford one(?).

FWIW, I believe in the Hubbert peak oil theory. $3 gas may be a fond memory in a year or 2 or 3......

roadburner

BMW is supposedly making a couple of their diesel models available to the USA sometime soon.

The models will be the 335d and the X5 3.5d. I drove a 535d in September and I was very impressed with the overall performance. The Munich oil burners also repond well to aftermarket tuning. Now, if BMW NA would just import a 135d five-door with the M Sport package...

woodyww

I love the look of the current 5 Series. OTOH, it announces, "here's someone with a big income who can pay $50K+ for a new car". And maybe it looks more Lexus-like. Still, if I had that amount of $$ to blow, I'd head for the bmw store.

Of course the price differentials can make nice used E39's look like huge bargains....& most bmw's look cooler, or better, as that model ages (I think).