Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

benjaminh

Detail pic of the A-spec seat....



I like the A-spec wheel design as well....

stickguy

Looks good with the red too.

28firefighter

@stickguy, when will your TLX be in?

stickguy

Need to call this afternoon. I’m wondering what it’s taking so long too.

Drivingfool

Since I've never leased, can someone please explain the residual and the %'s? Let's say I lease a $30K vehicle for 3 years/12K miles, how does this work? Try with $0 down and with $1K down as examples. Think I get how it goes but since I've never leased, just not 100% sure of the math.
Thanks all!!

The Sandman/Driving Fool

(Still in St. Cloud as wasn't feeling well today so asked for another day off. Then they came to start to fix the water issue today, so no water for a couple of hours. Coming again tomorrow for another couple of hours of no water, so might just leave after dinner tonight or get up early and go at 8.)

henryn

https://edmunds.com/car-leasing/quick-guide-to-leasing-a-new-car.html

https://ifsautoloans.com/how-does-car-leasing-work/

https://thebalance.com/how-does-leasing-a-car-work-526995

stickguy

leasing is really just a different way of financing a car. I am sure the links Henry posted give you all you need to know, but feel free to ask for any clarifications! Like any loan, the more you put down up front, the less your payments will be.

The math (and some terminology) can get complicated (even if you are looking at an actual deal worksheet), but really simplified, you pay interest on the price of the car, and for the depreciation over the term of the lease (averaged per month). Along with the usual tax and DMV fees.

Drivingfool

What I'm guessing if the residual is pretty high, at the end of the lease if traded on something else at a different dealer, does the leasee have any equity at all? Basically asking in what scenario will a leasee have some equity? Is this even possible? Just think one might if another dealer gives more than is owed to the lease company.
Am I just plain wrong here?

Drivingfool

Guess leasing is a good way to get into something a bit more than one could afford by buying it or getting a decent vehicle with a low lease price like the Buick Encore that I've been seeing. The fees would bother me though, on each end.

breld

Well, fingers crossed, we found a suitable replacement for the Macan.

We visited the Audi dealer over our lunch hour. We were particularly interested in service loaners that they could pull from the service fleet to sell. The only A5 Sportback they had available was a black over brown, which was pretty low on the color preference list for my wife. The salesperson claimed that was the only one they had available from the loaner fleet at this time - but I pushed a bit and mentioned that we had seen a couple others when we were browsing their lot on Sunday, and if he could just check to see if any of them were eligible for sale.

Well, sure enough, there were two Prestige models with appealing colors, one in Manhattan Gray with black leather, and another in Scuba Blue with the gray interior, both of which could be pulled from the fleet for sale.

My wife's absolute first choice was Manhattan Gray with the gray interior - but her stronger preference is that exterior color, so that's the one.

So...2018 Audi A5 Sportback, Manhattan Gray over black leather. Prestige trim, S-line sport package, S-line wheel package, driver assistance package, ventilated front seats and cold weather package. So very loaded, offered at about $10k off MSRP. The car has about 5k miles and it will be CPO'd.

That was consistent with another deal we were intrigued with in Dallas (yes, I was contemplating another roadtrip there for another car), and the trade offer on the Macan matched exactly the three other offers we had received, so figured that was all the money.

So the only thing left is that they offered a loaner for my wife to take home tonight so she can drive her son around to make sure "he approves."

Let's hope he does.

stickguy

you could have some. just uncommon. The residual is a fixed number when you get the lease. Say, $20,000. That is used to figure out the depreciation part of your payment.

at the end, if you want to buy out the car, you would pay the 20,000 for it. If you want to trade it in on a different car, the dealer would value it like any other car you had. Having equity depends on if they offer more or less than 20,000, since that s the pay off.

so, if trade value is 22K, yup, you get 2K back (dealer pays the 20,000 residual to buy out the lease). If it is less, then it makes no sense to trade it in. You give it back and walk away.

Really the same (with one key difference) as if you buy a car and take out a car loan, and want to trade it in during the loan period. If it is worth more than your loan balance, you get money. If it is worth less, you have negative equity to make up.

the key difference? If you have negative equity (on a lease, means residual is more than market value) you just hand the car back, and the negative equity is not your problem. whoever wrote the lease eats that. And that is a reason a lot of people like to lease if they know they will get a car in that 3 year range.

Oh, almost always it turns out that you in fact don't have equity at the end of the lease. Usually the other way around. I do know someone that came out positive (she leased an SUV right before those became hot so had some positive equity/). Just a rare occurrence.

coldinohio

breld said:

Well, fingers crossed, we found a suitable replacement for the Macan.

We visited the Audi dealer over our lunch hour. We were particularly interested in service loaners that they could pull from the service fleet to sell. The only A5 Sportback they had available was a black over brown, which was pretty low on the color preference list for my wife. The salesperson claimed that was the only one they had available from the loaner fleet at this time - but I pushed a bit and mentioned that we had seen a couple others when we were browsing their lot on Sunday, and if he could just check to see if any of them were eligible for sale.

Well, sure enough, there were two Prestige models with appealing colors, one in Manhattan Gray with black leather, and another in Scuba Blue with the gray interior, both of which could be pulled from the fleet for sale.

My wife's absolute first choice was Manhattan Gray with the gray interior - but her stronger preference is that exterior color, so that's the one.

So...2018 Audi A5 Sportback, Manhattan Gray over black leather. Prestige trim, S-line sport package, S-line wheel package, driver assistance package, ventilated front seats and cold weather package. So very loaded, offered at about $10k off MSRP. The car has about 5k miles and it will be CPO'd.

That was consistent with another deal we were intrigued with in Dallas (yes, I was contemplating another roadtrip there for another car), and the trade offer on the Macan matched exactly the three other offers we had received, so figured that was all the money.

So the only thing left is that they offered a loaner for my wife to take home tonight so she can drive her son around to make sure "he approves."

Let's hope he does.

good luck; really like both the A5 sportback and Macan--both realistically 4 seaters? i think

tbirdmarco

Breldd hoping for the best for you and the wife hope this deal works out 

tbirdmarco

 Enjoyed reading everything else in here posted today to as well. 

tbirdmarco

 Always tell people if you want a new car every few years lease, but if you don’t buy the two or three-year-old used car you’ll save a lot of money. Can I help a few friends in the next coming months lease two new cars, the leases are up in March or April 2019, sorting some test drives in a couple weeks after New Year’s. Type your comment

benjaminh

The leases by people here make a good argument for going down that path—whether you buy the car at the end of lease or not. Taking stick's recent example with his loaded TLX A-spec which has a list price $40,400, his $400 a month payment adds up to 14,400 over three years, and then he has an option to buy the car if he wants for c.$20k. To me that seems similar to if somehow he got a good discount off of msrp and a 0% loan. As with my lease, the blizzard of taxes and fees—although I realize they are still there somewhere—almost seem to melt away if you get a really good lease.

ab348

Leasing is usually more affordable than purchasing from a monthly payment standpoint since residuals are often inflated, but because of that you get locked into the leasing cycle more easily - at lease-end it is just very tempting to re-up with a new car and a new lease because buying the one you had makes no sense at that residual figure. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I've done it myself. But at some point some folks like to get away from that monthly payment. Of course, if you purchase a new car and pay it off eventually, then you're driving a used car a number of model years old, so are you any better off than just buying a used car in the first place? I guess there are no right answers, it depends on individual circumstances.

stickguy

looks like I should be picking the car up tonight. Going to be an action packed day!

and yes, depending on the level of discount and incentives, with a realistic residual (say, 50% instead of 60%) depending on market value in 3 years, it could make sense to buy it. If of course, you want to keep owning it!

you can also buy a new car of the same brand (not lease) and avoid the disposal fee at the end. I did that with my Elantra when the Sonata went back. Quite possible in 3 years, when the TLX goes back, we will buy the wife her dream RDX to replace it, either new or CPO (either way saves the turn in fee).

corvette

Roadburner, just sent you a PM. 

benjaminh

My comment above is that leasing on the way to buying is sometimes better than buying. If Stick had tried to buy the A-spec from the get-go discount from msrp would have been less, because the big incentives from Acura are only available for leasing. Even with a 10% discount from msrp, which seems optimistic, and even with Acura's 2.9% financing, you'd be looking at a payment of around 600 a month. Bottom line: for some cars leasing on the way to purchase is less expensive than just buying. For a Stelvio this doesn't make sense because the quality is questionable, the infotainment is a "dumpster fire," and the residual is c.60%. But for an Acura at c. 50%....

stickguy

If I had decided to buy it would have been a 2018 CPO most likely.

Though I’m pretty sure at this point I won’t be looking to get a long term keeper for myself. The wife’s car, that can be a nice 8-10 year keeper for her.

breld

This has all been said more or less already, and in general, everyone here is sophisticated enough with car purchases to recognize this but...

From an overall economic perspective, leasing makes sense if 1) there are additional incentives on a lease vs purchase that overcome the additional costs of leasing (acq fee) or 2) residuals are higher than what you could expect to trade/sell for at the end of the term (may be hard to predict). In those cases, the depreciation you're paying for (one way or the other) ends up being lower on a lease.

If you end up buying out at the residual in the end, you're no better off one way or the other, except you're out the acq fee specific to a lease. Some may feel like they're getting a deal if the residual buyout is lower than market - well, guess what, you paid along the way to get it there.

I'd say the driving factor for most when leasing is simple cash flow - getting into the car you want at a lower monthly payment. Much like cell phones, we're all becoming fairly accustomed to the monthly bill for having the privilege of having a new phone. So goes it with cars - I think a lot of younger folks will simply take on a reasonable monthly payment that's perpetual, to drive a newer car with little or no repair/maintenance headaches. "Subscriptions" are now taking that to another level - will be interesting to see how that goes.

And of course, the certainty of a lease has value too - fixing that depreciation is nice in its own right.

stickguy

looks like plan has shifted to picking up the new car tomorrow afternoon. I misunderstood the "have the car" comment. I thought it was already there. Turns out, won't get in until end of the day, and need time to prep it. So, have to wait a little longer.

breld

So, my wife picked up her son from his caretaker last night in the A5 loaner...and not a peep from him all the way home. And then she intentionally went out more to run some errands...and still no negative response from him.

And this is the time of day and environment when he has consistently screamed bloody murder as if a limb was being cut off in the Macan.

So...the A5 is a go.

Now, after dropping off the loaner this morning and getting back into her Macan, the immediate contrast was striking to her and she seemed a bit heartbroken to be letting it go. But the idea of driving around in a very nice car without the threat of screaming mimi behind her overcomes any visceral enjoyment she gets from the Porsche.

I brought up the idea of paying more for an S5 to at least get the V6 feel, but she insists that wouldn't really change anything, and she's definitely averse to spending the extra money. She reminds me that she was all ready to buy an Allroad before the Macan, with the same drivetrain and everything as the A5 Sportback. Which brings up the question of why not an Allroad since she likes wagons, but she doesn't want to risk the fact that a more "airy" feeling from the wagon may not be preferable for her son. He did have a few episodes previously in the Polestar wagon.

So...she'll just have to suffer with an almost brand new, loaded up, A5 Sportback.

28firefighter

You're a good man, @breld.

xwesx

@breld
Maybe you should consider an '80s vintage Subaru wagon. Your son would probably do just fine with that, and it would be a very cheap ride to own.

Mr_Shiftright

Pretty crude car to drive. We don't want breld to start screaming.

Drivingfool

Drove home this morning, left there about 8:45 and pulled into town by about 11:25. Ran into some traffic in Ft. Pierce and then again at PGA Blvd. but that was about it. It's always dicey after Boca Raton but got off right after that at Sample Rd. as I had to run an errand in Margate. Beautiful sunny day, temp was 61 when I left. Filled up with regular yesterday for $2.14 which was great to get. The Golf drove like a champ with the cruise most of the way, now all it needs is a nice wash. Still very happy with it and it fit nicely in my kids garage so my thinking is a Camry size vehicle would also work.
From what I've seen, a new Camry LE and my Golf get around the same mpg's. For some crazy reason, I really like the new Camry and wouldn't feel old driving one around. The new Corolla hatchback is nice also but not sure one can get Sirius/XM in it. Read somewhere that Apple CarPlay works so am good there but really like my SAT radio and don't mind paying the price for it. But just not up to even doing a test drive in the Corolla right now, very unusual for me. Just need to find a similar size vehicle that I can slide into/out of with enough power to get out of it's own way. Needs SAT and Apple CarPlay and a moon roof would be nice but not something I'd have to have. Find me something like that and I'll go see it. Will hit 48K by tomorrow, these trips up and back to Orlando are about 188 miles each way, so do the math. Have had the vehicle for 4 years and 1 week as of today. No issues to speak of since the water pump/thermostat issue at around 36K. Two new batteries but only one's on me plus the Bridgestone Driveguard tires with plenty of tread left, a bit over 1/2 I'd estimate. And it's fun to drive quotient is right up there so looks like it's still stayin' in the garage.

Drivingfool

The Audi Q3 might work but it's mpg's actually stink, as bad as the VW Tiguan's for some reason. Figured they'd both be around 30 city/35 highway but nowhere near that. Like the looks of the Q3 to be honest but the low mpg's are a big X for me. And the MX-3 by Mazda does nothing for me at all. The 3 hatchback is a better looking vehicle but it's long hood is a turn off plus the infotainment center is awful, really awful.
But, I keep looking. Should go see the new Lexus UX and see how it drives. Liked the 200ct but it was very loud going up the power band, just too noisey. Almost bought a used unit and went on almost a dozen test drives but that noise just killed it for me. Plus, the cpo units were a bit pricey. Might go check out a cpo Acura ILX, should've test driven that maroon over beige unit I found at the Honda store last year but waited a bit too long. It did look purtty!!

graphicguy

Any of you still thinking of making a purchase before the end of the year, the Kia Store that's been emailing me sent pics of the one they're offering for $38,720. I'm out of the running. But, if you guys want to get serious, I think it's a helluva deal on a helluva car......

https://jeffwylerfairfieldkia.com/new/Kia/2018-Kia-Stinger-61e122590a0e0ae830e9ab37950db0bd.htm

graphicguy

@breld....thoughtful car punch. You're one of the good guys.

Pre congrats on the punch (will save the real congrats when we see pics).

xwesx

graphicguy said:

Any of you still thinking of making a purchase before the end of the year, the Kia Store that's been emailing me sent pics of the one they're offering for $38,720. I'm out of the running. But, if you guys want to get serious, I think it's a helluva deal on a helluva car......

https://jeffwylerfairfieldkia.com/new/Kia/2018-Kia-Stinger-61e122590a0e0ae830e9ab37950db0bd.htm

No doubt! Sadly, I would use up a third of a year's miles just to drive it home (if leasing).

xwesx

Drivingfool said:

The Audi Q3 might work but it's mpg's actually stink, as bad as the VW Tiguan's for some reason. Figured they'd both be around 30 city/35 highway but nowhere near that. Like the looks of the Q3 to be honest but the low mpg's are a big X for me. And the MX-3 by Mazda does nothing for me at all. The 3 hatchback is a better looking vehicle but it's long hood is a turn off plus the infotainment center is awful, really awful.
But, I keep looking. Should go see the new Lexus UX and see how it drives. Liked the 200ct but it was very loud going up the power band, just too noisey. Almost bought a used unit and went on almost a dozen test drives but that noise just killed it for me. Plus, the cpo units were a bit pricey. Might go check out a cpo Acura ILX, should've test driven that maroon over beige unit I found at the Honda store last year but waited a bit too long. It did look purtty!!

Q3 mileage is terrible. I had a loaner for about a week last January, and economy was basically identical to my Q7, which is a substantially larger (and heavier... by a full ton) car.

henryn

Drivingfool said:

The Golf drove like a champ with the cruise most of the way, now all it needs is a nice wash. Still very happy with it and it fit nicely in my kids garage so my thinking is a Camry size vehicle would also work.

Camry? Seriously? I seem to recall you saying, "Nothing over 180 inches."

The Camry is 192 inches, your Golf is 167. That is a big difference.

stickguy

I’m a hatch fan, but would take a G70 over that. If nothing else, you get genesis concierge service including free maintenance.

stickguy

Well, after many twists and turns, finally got the Elantra off to Carvana. Such nice people to work with. Plus I got to see a delivery out of the vending machine while I was there! Kinda cool gimmick, but the new owners seemed to enjoy it.

benjaminh

What did Carvana end up giving you for the Elantra Sport? How many miles did it have by the time you drove it last?

xwesx

stickguy said:

Well, after many twists and turns, finally got the Elantra off to Carvana. Such nice people to work with. Plus I got to see a delivery out of the vending machine while I was there! Kinda cool gimmick, but the new owners seemed to enjoy it.

Did you end up going to them to drop off the car?

henryn

It's funny how Carvana seems to have replaced Carmax as the go to place for selling off your unwanted car. But I don't (as of yet) seem to be hearing or seeing people buying from Carvana.

Carmax seems to have really lowered their offers over the past 2 or 3 years. A few years back, I would go to Carmax to get an offer in writing before I tried to trade in a vehicle. These days, Carmax is so low I don't bother. Texas Direct Auto seems to give the best buy offers around here.

But when observing cars, in stop and go traffic, in parking lots, just out and about, I still seem to see more Carmax stickers than anything else.

stickguy

OK, the Carvana saga. They were consistently higher than anyone else on this car (primary reason I decided to pull trigger now). They end up paying me ~$16,600. Since I only paid $18,900 14 months ago, not complaining about that. Carmax hit it at 16K even. One Acura dealer (the guy that had the black Tech coming in, but their offer was not particularly good, so could have been an over-allowance) was also 16K even.

the dealers I had the 2 lowball offers from (Scarsdale and where I bought it) were both at about 14-14.5 max. Subaru was at 13.5. I assume they were just shopping wholesalers, not looking at it like carmax where you could give it a quick detail and have it on the front row the same day for a quick profit. I am going to be curious to track this one at Carvana!

I would have saved money trading it at the 16k figure, but just did not work out having the right dealer at the right price. So I lost a little doing it this way, but not much.

roadburner

graphicguy said:

Any of you still thinking of making a purchase before the end of the year, the Kia Store that's been emailing me sent pics of the one they're offering for $38,720. I'm out of the running. But, if you guys want to get serious, I think it's a helluva deal on a helluva car......

https://jeffwylerfairfieldkia.com/new/Kia/2018-Kia-Stinger-61e122590a0e0ae830e9ab37950db0bd.htm

And speaking of Stingers, this dealer must be high on something REALLY strong.

Drivingfool

I know the Camry is a lot larger but just like the way it looks and the way it drives. And in any other garage than the one we have, it'll fit on either side. Just starting to even thinking of buying something new so a big step here. Thought I'd have to pull the trigger last March after the accident, but Safeco decided to fix it instead, so buying new was out. Now, just looking like we all do in here. Just that I don't pull the trigger that often and I want to like what I drive. The Golf I like, really like, and nothing else to match it right now in the mid $20K segment. The new Toyota Corolla hatchback is so new, no one has any to sell from what I've seen. But that one really has my interest to be honest. Just hope it drives as nicely as the Golf does or why bother. So far, it's behaving with about 48K on the clock. New battery, it's 3rd, and new headlamps have been the only out of pocket costs this year so I'm happy with that.
Probably wait till I get to 70K to really look for a replacement vehicle. By then I should be in total retirement so will be driving less.

qbrozen

I know one person who bought from Carvana.
First, she bought an SRX. Found out it didn't have all the features she expected, so she took advantage of their "exchange" program and sent it back for a Terrain. Seems to be happy with the transaction.

stickguy

rest of saga. I went online Saturday after getting my "it's approved" email. For some reason (now I think it was because I picked the wrong location) it only gave me drop off options, so I booked one. I called Monday AM and talked to an agent, who looked and found me a pickup slot for noon today, so I took it. Got multiple emails confirming and reminding me about it. So, things were looking up.

noon comes and goes. No truck, no call. About 1:15 I finally call and get an agent. after some time on hold while he researches, seems the earlier guy screwed something up and assigned to wrong location (the way he described it). But bottom line, the vending machine had my check and paperwork and thought I was dropping it off.

more time on hold, and he came back to say they could get me a noon tomorrow PU at the house. But, I need to go get new car shortly after that so any glitch and I would have a problem. So I took the quick way out, and drove into Philly to drop it off. Since they screwed the whole thing up to start with, the agent said they would pay for an uber to take me home. So, I did it.

Process once I got there was super easy and quick. If they have something you like, I highly recommend them. People were great to work with. I even saw a nice young family get a vending delivery of a QX60. Quick hokey, they give you a giant coin to drop in the slot to start the gears turning.

so, I signed some papers, got a check, took an Uber and am not technically carless!

stickguy

either carmax or carvana really depends on how much they want your car to put on the lot. if they don't, the offer gets slashed. Mine they obviously expected to put right out there.

and yes, Carvana has the 7 day exchange option. A nice fallback, especially since you are buying the car sight unseen.

stickguy

well, looks like that my having the newest car in the family might last about 4 days. been chatting with my son. He stopped at the Genesis dealer and tried out a G70 3.3T. he fell madly in love, and it appears he is going to pull the trigger. Trading in his A3 on a black over black 3.3T with everything but the sport package. Elite and the other fancy stuff package.

not sure if he will actually be getting it tonight or picking it up next week. He is up in NY and leaving early tomorrow morning to come down here for a few days. So might be going back over Monday morning to get it. Nice little Xmas present for himself!

28firefighter

stickguy said:

well, looks like that my having the newest car in the family might last about 4 days. been chatting with my son. He stopped at the Genesis dealer and tried out a G70 3.3T. he fell madly in love, and it appears he is going to pull the trigger. Trading in his A3 on a black over black 3.3T with everything but the sport package. Elite and the other fancy stuff package.

not sure if he will actually be getting it tonight or picking it up next week. He is up in NY and leaving early tomorrow morning to come down here for a few days. So might be going back over Monday morning to get it. Nice little Xmas present for himself!

Haha. Good for him - I think if I had been single when I truly gained my financial independence, I might have made a similar choice. Alas, nope.

breld

graphicguy said:

@breld....thoughtful car punch. You're one of the good guys.

Pre congrats on the punch (will save the real congrats when we see pics).

Thanks GG - appreciate the kind words. And man, if I could talk my wife into a Stinger like the one you posted, it'd be a nice chunk of change saved AND she'd get a V6.

But...not gonna happen. Not that I'd blame her - I've always thought a used 4-series GC or A5 Sportback would be better way to go than a new Stinger. But with that discount AND getting the larger engine, there's some temptation.

breld

@stickguy - congrats to your son! That's very exciting. I'll be anxious to hear impressions (his and yours) on the G70. I read Motor Trend's COTY summary on it just last night.

breld

@stickguy - that's an incredible ownership cost on the Elantra! I'm envious! '

I did get a quote from Carvana on the Macan - it was exactly the same as offered everywhere else (Tesla, Audi, my Broker, etc.).