Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

Michaell

@fintail - I've been looking at 2017 models, but the options seem to be all over the place.

Thanks for the info on Distronic; just seems like a step backward when our 5 year old Outback has ACC.

Michaell

Has anybody read about BMWs new subscription plan? You can turn off certain features of the car - heated seats, adaptive cruise, etc - by not paying for it monthly.

Kind of like the Tesla model, but on steroids

omarman

The only thing I've read about it suggested that it may explain why so many BMW drivers are lacking turn signals. "Miss just 1 payment..."

fintail

If Distronic is a must, you're in for a search - in my experience, very few non-AMG C will have it. Even on E, it can sometimes be hard to find on non-AMG models, definitely a minority of 4cyl models have it. For cars that mostly lease, a ~$2500 option probably makes it a tough sell.

Michaell said:

@fintail - I've been looking at 2017 models, but the options seem to be all over the place.

Thanks for the info on Distronic; just seems like a step backward when our 5 year old Outback has ACC.

stickguy

BMW dealer, always feel welcome there. Get taken care of, treated like a real buyer, etc. Audi too. Though there I became friendly with a salesguy when it turned out he lived in my town, and both kids bought through him (he is now an assistant SM so if I go in actually shopping, he says hi and assigns a salesperson to help me). And of course, tells them to give me an "insider" deal.

corvette

Yikes! I think all 2020 Toyotas have radar cruise standard.

fintail

MB these days also bundles it with a bunch of other stuff/nannies including steering assist, so there's no standalone radar cruise, so to speak. It's kind of odd to see MB kind of lag on this, as they were a pioneer with it, implementing an early version as an S-class option for MY 2000, I believe. MB has also been slow to roll out HUD to all models, and even thigh extenders on seats seemed to come late. Some odd nit picks.

Michaell

fintail said:

If Distronic is a must, you're in for a search - in my experience, very few non-AMG C will have it. Even on E, it can sometimes be hard to find on non-AMG models, definitely a minority of 4cyl models have it. For cars that mostly lease, a ~$2500 option probably makes it a tough sell.

Michaell said:

@fintail - I've been looking at 2017 models, but the options seem to be all over the place.

Thanks for the info on Distronic; just seems like a step backward when our 5 year old Outback has ACC.

I wouldn't say it's a must. Hell, I'm not really even in the market. Wife saw one and commented on it - not something she does all that frequently. I was just curious about the car and popped by the dealer to scope it out.

If we want one bad enough, I'm sure we can learn to live without it.

fintail

At the same time, if you're going in that deep, get what you really want. That's what I did on my latest car, some options (like Distronic) were must-haves. It's more common on that car, however.

I find I don't use it a lot, especially lately as I am not driving a ton, especially on the highway. My complaint is that it doesn't follow close enough in dense moving traffic, so people will cut in front of you, then causing it to slow more - you become kind of a pylon. But in light traffic or real stop and go slogs, it is nice, and the steering assist is fun, my 9 year old niece is impressed by it anyway. If tight parking is an issue, surround view is also pretty nice.

The widescreen displays are another must-have for me. For the E, they became effectively standard for MY 2020, part of the basic premium package found on virtually every dealer-ordered car. There were supplier issues earlier in the current E run, so it can be hard to find on some 2017-19 cars. I suspect it will be standard on the next C revision, too.

Michaell said:

I wouldn't say it's a must. Hell, I'm not really even in the market. Wife saw one and commented on it - not something she does all that frequently. I was just curious about the car and popped by the dealer to scope it out.

If we want one bad enough, I'm sure we can learn to live without it.

benjaminh

https://jalopnik.com/can-i-buy-out-my-lease-without-going-through-the-dealer-1765454741

"Once you get the financing squared away, the lender will send payment to the lease company and they will then send the title to the lender. You will have to take some paperwork to the DMV to process the registration and tags. That’s it!

If you don’t mind some legwork on your part and a trip to the DMV, you can buy out your lease, keep some money in your pocket and avoid the awkward conversation with the finance guy about “protecting your investment.”

stickguy

thanks. I guess that makes sense.

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

I have the same issue at our local MB palace. Even though we theoretically make plenty of money and can afford at least a normal model, I just feel like I am being judged and looked down on (like I just don't belong).

I get that at Honda dealers.

benjaminh

To my surprise about a week ago my wife (of all people) asked if we could get a new car. Specifically she wondered if we could trade in her 2018 CR-V for a 2020 CR-V hybrid. I told her that would never pay in terms of mpg. We might save $500 a year on gas, but the cost of making such a trade when all is said and done might be c. $10k. In some ways I can't believe I talked my wife out of getting a new car, but it didn't really make sense imho. When we instead paid off her current CR-V that made her happy. When we got her 2018 CRV we traded in her 2013 Accord EXL, and since they gave us a good trade-in we were able to finance it over 36 months at $455 a month. By making some extra payments here and there, and then more just recently as mentioned, we are now free of that payment. And just in time too, as our daughter is about to go off to college and we have some bills for that.

kyfdx

28firefighter said:

I, too, feel out of place at MB dealers and I can’t explain why. Well, actually I can. I’ve found the experience to be overly formal with a lot of, what I perceived to be, fake niceness. No one is mean, it’s just awkward.

Audi and BMW I’ve found to be more laid back all around. More car guys seem to be at those dealers, too, and that is definitely more my speed.

In late 2011, they had killer lease deals on the E-Class Bluetec Diesel. I had a tentative deal on one in Columbus, but my wife wanted to drive one, first. We went to our local dealer, and feigned interest in an E-Class. They couldn't have been nicer. A nice long test drive, etc.

My wife decided it was a little too big, and she didn't think she was a "Mercedes" person, so we didn't make the deal on the diesel in Columbus (also, RWD only)

The weird part: The local dealer never followed up, even though they had all of our information.

breld

benjaminh said:

To my surprise about a week ago my wife (of all people) asked if we could get a new car. Specifically she wondered if we could trade in her 2018 CR-V for a 2020 CR-V hybrid. I told her that would never pay in terms of mpg. We might save $500 a year on gas, but the cost of making such a trade when all is said and done might be c. $10k. In some ways I can't believe I talked my wife out of getting a new car, but it didn't really make sense imho. When we instead paid off her current CR-V that made her happy. When we got her 2018 CRV we traded in her 2013 Accord EXL, and since they gave us a good trade-in we were able to finance it over 36 months at $455 a month. By making some extra payments here and there, and then more just recently as mentioned, we are now free of that payment. And just in time too, as our daughter is about to go off to college and we have some bills for that.

Alright...rookie mistake. But nothing that can’t be undone.

Help us...help you.

qbrozen

benjaminh said:

To my surprise about a week ago my wife (of all people) asked if we could get a new car. Specifically she wondered if we could trade in her 2018 CR-V for a 2020 CR-V hybrid. I told her that would never pay in terms of mpg. We might save $500 a year on gas, but the cost of making such a trade when all is said and done might be c. $10k. In some ways I can't believe I talked my wife out of getting a new car, but it didn't really make sense imho. When we instead paid off her current CR-V that made her happy. When we got her 2018 CRV we traded in her 2013 Accord EXL, and since they gave us a good trade-in we were able to finance it over 36 months at $455 a month. By making some extra payments here and there, and then more just recently as mentioned, we are now free of that payment. And just in time too, as our daughter is about to go off to college and we have some bills for that.

I don’t blame you. I see little point in trading unto the same car. I only get excited for something different.

ab348

I wonder if one's perceptions of a dealership experience aren't due to one's self-image. I know the few times I went to our local M-B dealer I was treated fine by the staff but felt out of place inside the showroom, seeing a Maybach on display in one corner and an AMG roadster in another. The local Audi franchise is in a new shiny building and I won't set foot in it just based on their local TV ads which have something about them that makes me think I wouldn't fit in. I have no preconceptions about the BMW dealer other than that they would be glad to do a total cashectomy on me. I won't even go near the local Jag-Land Rover dealer (also in a shiny new building) or the Porsche dealer since there is no way I would ever be able to make them believe I was a serious buyer.

graphicguy

Funny about doc fees...some dealers act is if it’s a constitutional amendment they have to follow.

First time I tried to negotiate it away was probably 20 years ago. Can’t remember the car, but I was sitting in F&I and here comes the doc fee on the paperwork. Telling the F&I guy I couldn’t understand why a) it was so high, and b) why I couldn’t do the paperwork and filing myself and save what was probably around $100 they were charging for the doc fee.

F&I guy seemed stunned and said, “well, I guess you could if you really wanted to”. I told him I would and to remove the doc fee. Of course, a manager got involved and told me it was a mandatory fee and that it covered their processing of the paperwork, loan docs, etc at which time I told him I had my own financing in place that that I would file everything with the BMV. He was befuddled, too.

Ended up, they dropped the doc fee and did the paperwork anyway.

That was the beginning of my “here’s my offer, all in” way of negotiations. Some dealers who I’ve done business with before “get” how my offers work. Some, have no clue what it is I’m doing and still try to add fees into my one, all-in offer.

Might be more palatable if they offered real value with their doc fees. But, mostly it’s just filing on online and maybe firing up the printer for a few docs. $100? $200? $300? $500? For that service? No thanks. I’ll walk out of the dealership.

sda

benjaminh said:

To my surprise about a week ago my wife (of all people) asked if we could get a new car. Specifically she wondered if we could trade in her 2018 CR-V for a 2020 CR-V hybrid. I told her that would never pay in terms of mpg. We might save $500 a year on gas, but the cost of making such a trade when all is said and done might be c. $10k. In some ways I can't believe I talked my wife out of getting a new car, but it didn't really make sense imho. When we instead paid off her current CR-V that made her happy. When we got her 2018 CRV we traded in her 2013 Accord EXL, and since they gave us a good trade-in we were able to finance it over 36 months at $455 a month. By making some extra payments here and there, and then more just recently as mentioned, we are now free of that payment. And just in time too, as our daughter is about to go off to college and we have some bills for that.

The CR-V is getting luke warm reviews. The abruptness and noise of the engine cycling on and off seems off putting. CU touched on this on a recent Talking Cars segment. Our daughter starts college this fall, so we are hesitant to make any significant changes.

carnaught

Re: doc fees - early on in my car negotiations I ask what their doc fee is. I deduct it in my mind before I give my “all in”, OTD offer.

I have always felt comfortable, and have been treated right in Mercedes dealerships. It’s probably because I am always well put together .

graphicguy

carnaught said:

Re: doc fees - early on in my car negotiations I ask what their doc fee is. I deduct it in my mind before I give my “all in”, OTD offer.

I have always felt comfortable, and have been treated right in Mercedes dealerships. It’s probably because I am always well put together .

Mercedes dealerships view me as a heathen. The ones I have dealt with seemed like my “one all in offer” type of buying a car was anathema to them.

oldfarmer50

fintail said:

At the same time, if you're going in that deep, get what you really want. That's what I did on my latest car, some options (like Distronic) were must-haves. It's more common on that car, however.

I find I don't use it a lot, especially lately as I am not driving a ton, especially on the highway. My complaint is that it doesn't follow close enough in dense moving traffic, so people will cut in front of you, then causing it to slow more - you become kind of a pylon. But in light traffic or real stop and go slogs, it is nice, and the steering assist is fun, my 9 year old niece is impressed by it anyway. If tight parking is an issue, surround view is also pretty nice.

The widescreen displays are another must-have for me. For the E, they became effectively standard for MY 2020, part of the basic premium package found on virtually every dealer-ordered car. There were supplier issues earlier in the current E run, so it can be hard to find on some 2017-19 cars. I suspect it will be standard on the next C revision, too.

Michaell said:

I wouldn't say it's a must. Hell, I'm not really even in the market. Wife saw one and commented on it - not something she does all that frequently. I was just curious about the car and popped by the dealer to scope it out.

If we want one bad enough, I'm sure we can learn to live without it.

That’s what I dislike about Toyota’s system. Suddenly you realize you’ve become a roadblock following someone a mile up the road with cars cutting in front of you. I found it only useful on secondary roads where passing was difficult. You could set the cruise and it would maintain distance safely even as you followed into a speed zone. It would then resume speed on the other side. Made driving through Vermont more enjoyable.

28firefighter

To be clear, the MB dealer was perfectly nice and obviously I leased the C300 from them. It just felt like fake nice.

graphicguy

Reminds me of the time I walked into a Lexus dealership local to me with the idea I wanted to buy the (then redesigned IS350). This was about 10+ years ago.

Anyway, the sales person was nice enough during the test drive. He found a color I liked (some sort of grey pearl) and went off on the test drive, which I came away impressed with.

A little banter and I told him I'd like to make an offer, but it was a one time only offer, and it included everthing....the number was what I would write a check for, on the spot, and drive away in the car.

I gave him the number. Typical reply..."how did you come up with that number?". I even broke it down for him....his invoice price, my offer vs invoice (I think it was something like $300-$400 over), all taxes and tags figured down to the penny.

He said he'd go to his boss to present my offer. Meanwhile, I'm wandering around the showroom, and then outside, looking at other models and colors. 20 minutes go by. My sales guy disappeared. I ask the receptionist to page him, which she does. I wander a little more. 15 minutes later, I ask the receptionist to page the sales guy again. Still no sign of him. Finally, I ask the receptionist to page the sales manager....who comes out of whatever office they hide in deep in the bowels of the dealership.

I explain that I was trying to buy his IS350 from Mr Salesman. The manager said he saw my offer and unceremoniously state that "that's not the way the dealership did business". I explained how rude I though the sales person was to just abandon me without even a good bye and I walked away. No explanation on why they just blew me off.

In subsequent years, and well after both the sales person and sales manager had gone off to ply their trade elsewhere, I'd get a call from someone from the same dealership telling me they'd "taken over as my personal car concierge" (whatever that is). I explained to them how rudely I was treated and how I never even got an "I'm sorry" from the dealership. That usually quells any further contact until my name hits the desk of yet another Lexus sales person.

Obviously, I've never bought a Lexus as a result....even though there have been times, I really liked their cars.

fintail

Another fun thing, when it reacts to a car cutting in front, it doesn't just decelerate, but it jams on the brakes - like somehow a car crossing its path what seems like 500 feet ahead is time to panic. More than once it had me launching into profanity, and in dense flowing traffic, I just don't use it anymore. But in other situations, like what you mention, it is fine - although more of a toy than a necessity.

oldfarmer50 said:

That’s what I dislike about Toyota’s system. Suddenly you realize you’ve become a roadblock following someone a mile up the road with cars cutting in front of you. I found it only useful on secondary roads where passing was difficult. You could set the cruise and it would maintain distance safely even as you followed into a speed zone. It would then resume speed on the other side. Made driving through Vermont more enjoyable.

fintail

I never feel bad about that, as when I am looking, I am almost never a serious buyer. I just like to look and see what is out there, especially when it comes to the product mix and how cars are optioned.

Maybe the ones locally where I feel the most out of place are Porsche and Bentley - I don't even go into the showroom, I just walk the lot.

ab348 said:

I wonder if one's perceptions of a dealership experience aren't due to one's self-image. I know the few times I went to our local M-B dealer I was treated fine by the staff but felt out of place inside the showroom, seeing a Maybach on display in one corner and an AMG roadster in another. The local Audi franchise is in a new shiny building and I won't set foot in it just based on their local TV ads which have something about them that makes me think I wouldn't fit in. I have no preconceptions about the BMW dealer other than that they would be glad to do a total cashectomy on me. I won't even go near the local Jag-Land Rover dealer (also in a shiny new building) or the Porsche dealer since there is no way I would ever be able to make them believe I was a serious buyer.

nyccarguy

Saw my 1st C8 Corvette in the wild today. Red. Very sexy.

fintail

Speaking of dealers and looking, I browsed a handful of dealers this afternoon - MB, Porsche, Audi, BMW, Jag/LR, VW, Subaru, Toyota. These are all within several minutes of each other, some next door, so it is efficient. All dealerships were open, and all had some foot traffic. MB, BMW, Jag, and Toyota seemed relatively busy for a holiday, maybe with so little else going on, people wanted something to do. Everyone was wearing masks, and there was obvious signage about the facilities being cleaned.

MB: I instantly encountered the salesman who dealt with me on the wagon. He greeted me by name, but was with a customer. I walked the lot and looked and the showroom. Nothing really got me going, but there was something - a 140K+ S560 coupe without Distronic. Some kind of weird abandoned special order I suspect - it had a Designo paint color (an unusual dark red) and interior, but virtually zero other options and no adaptive cruise that can be had on many mainstream cars.

Porsche: I only walked the lot, didn't encounter any salespeople. Saw a few Taycan, all had MSRP within a few hundred dollars of each other, 169K. CUVs outnumbered cars maybe 3:1.

Audi: I only walked the lot, didn't feel like checking out the small showroom. Didn't encounter any salespeople, they had tons of CUVs, no hot car models that I could see.

BMW: visited the new facility for the first time. Very nice place, with something from every model in the huge showroom - mildly reminiscent of the new car section of BMW Welt in Munich. I was greeted by a salesman, I explained I was just passing time and browsing. Most appealing car to me was a M2C in blue. There were some wacky things, like a loaded 760 at something like 180K, and some high spec 8ers with big prices.

Jag/LR: walked the lots and showroom, was greeted by a salesman who was a car guy, and we chatted. He saw my wagon and mentioned the Jag Sportbrake. Saw lots of IPace, LR had a ton of stuff including a couple new Defender, priced around 75K. A couple of Range Rover Autobiography MSRP well over 200K IIRC were amusing - makes a G-Wagen seem sensible.

VW: walked the lot, avoided the small showroom. Lots of selection, greeted by a salesman was I was leaving. Good mix of cars and CUVs. Only one Arteon, but I suspect that will sell in small numbers anyway.

Subaru: walked the lot, avoided the small showroom. Didn't meet any salespeople. Appeared to have a full lineup in stock. Subaru and VW are adjacent, under the same umbrella, and are relatively small.

Toyota: walked the lot, avoided the showroom. Was met by a salesman, who chatted me up, a car guy, and he noticed the wagon. He had some questions about my car, which was fun. The numerous flavors of 4Runner caught my eye, along with a Landcruiser "heritage" or something, with a retro badge. It looks kind of retro inside too, like 2005. There was one Supra outside, MSRP around 60K, no ADM.

A couple pics: No, this is not my car, but close. This one is the same exterior color and wheels, but has a different (Designo beige/brown leather) interior, and lacks a few interior options had by my car. MSRP 83K:



So much variety!

stickguy

in my neighborhood, an oddball. A LR Defender. The big 4 door model. No clue what year, but looked newer style (whatever that is on those). Had a lot of the accessories (big roof basket, etc.). But most interesting, it was a manual tranny. Not thinking you find many of those around.

nyccarguy

I hit a MILEstone with the Pilot today

Michaell

Congrats!

Your DTE is off, however - you drove 1 mile, but the DTE went down by 2.

benjaminh

I like these under the sheet metal views of cars. First an illustration of a mid-1930s Oldsmobile....



And here's a 3-minute video of the steel used in a 2015 TLX....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOSTJzDD-FU&t=82s

oldfarmer50

nyccarguy said:

I hit a MILEstone with the Pilot today

Is it permitted in this group to keep a vehicle for that many miles?

ronsteve

oldfarmer50 said:

Is it permitted in this group to keep a vehicle for that many miles?

I had the V70 for over 11 years and put over 180K on it. And after 7 years and not quite 77K miles, the wife isn't about to let me trade her Jetta. However, there is plenty of wanderlust after 27K with the RDX.

qbrozen

Quick drive in the AMG today. Thing is such a beast. AC definitely seems weak, so I’ll probably get that checked out. I did a little reading on the air suspension and I am fairly confident it is functioning fine. After I got home, as I was sitting in driveway, I played with the buttons and could see it going up and down. Sons were keen on me leaving it in the lowest setting, so that’s where it sits now. Lol

tjc78

Sweet. Hopefully the AC is just a little low and a charge gets you through the season.

28firefighter

So, happy with the purchase?

laurasdada

Walked my local MB/Porsche/Acura/Audi dealer today, all closed. As is my wont, I check to see if cars of interest are locked, almost always are. But, I found a 2020 Macan S, chalk/red, parked right in front of the dealer. Not only was it unlocked, but the key was sitting on the passenger seat. While I sat in and played (as well as a Panamera; but not for long, about 180 degrees inside the cars), I didn't take it for a test drive.

Then to the Ferrari/Maserati dealer. A couple of Mazda Soul Red-colored Portofinos (ok, among many) caught my eye. I told the sales dude if they gave me $250k trade value on my Jag, we had a deal! Not to leave you hanging, the Jag and I are still together.

@Roadburner, did you ever look at the Jag XF your wife suggested? If so, my guess would be not for you (maybe for her)? That model is the son of mine, I don't find it to be a true upgrade from my version, in fact the interior is a let down from mine. As is true for most Jags post the '/09 XF and latest XJ. The '20 XE interior upgrade is at least an attempt to recapture a decent Jag interior.

stickguy

after watching too many Youtube videos, I am seriously Jonesing to get another manual trans. I think as soon as I am getting my next car, it will be another stick. makes sense to do when you hit 60!

with any luck, if will be a 2-fer. some pure toy (maybe a convertible) and a boring utility something. Say a Miata and a Ranger combo. Perfect!

stickguy

chatted with the wife yesterday about my dream of downsizing and moving. after discussing the options, and factoring in her job and our daughters ups and downs, she wants to stay around here at least until we retire. So theoretically, another 7 years. We really don't expect to stay in this area once that happens, so no real logic in buying another place local. so, the current plan is, keep this house, refinance down the rest of the mortgage (shooting to pay it off in that 7 year time frame) and bite the bullet on some of the deferred maintenance items (new front door package, sliding door to the deck, and a new shed). Going to hurt $ wise, but long run, will pay off. So I guess it will be a while before I can slash the cash flow down enough to blow it all on something fancy!

tjc78

stickguy said:

after watching too many Youtube videos, I am seriously Jonesing to get another manual trans. I think as soon as I am getting my next car, it will be another stick. makes sense to do when you hit 60!

with any luck, if will be a 2-fer. some pure toy (maybe a convertible) and a boring utility something. Say a Miata and a Ranger combo. Perfect!

Plan 1 of 72

stickguy

when the kid is home we all go walking for steps. I mostly point out different cars and mention that maybe I should get one of those when the time comes. They mostly roll their eyes and make fun of me.

but you are probably right. was mentioning to the wife today since we were out driving the TLX that it was really nice, and explaining the recent swings in used car pricing. and said it is impossible to predict what the market would be a year from now. Also depends on whether either of us has any kind of commute, since it is very likely I have no need for a 2nd car for anything more than very infrequent spare car duties.

plus of course, I will change my mind 71 more times by then! But at least, you will all get plenty of entertainment out of it.

abacomike

breld said:

Not quite.

But this has a sold sign in it as of a few minutes ago.

Breld, you more than got my attention with this addition to your fleet! I love the color and the car is more beautiful than my dream date! Enjoy this one - the price is right and the color is mesmerizing! 😜🤪🤓

mjfloyd1

abacomike said:

breld said:

Not quite.

But this has a sold sign in it as of a few minutes ago.

Breld, you more than got my attention with this addition to your fleet! I love the color and the car is more beautiful than my dream date! Enjoy this one - the price is right and the color is mesmerizing! 😜🤪🤓

He didn’t buy that one. He bought a silver one close to home...

abacomike

mjfloyd1 said:

abacomike said:

breld said:

Not quite.

But this has a sold sign in it as of a few minutes ago.

Breld, you more than got my attention with this addition to your fleet! I love the color and the car is more beautiful than my dream date! Enjoy this one - the price is right and the color is mesmerizing! 😜🤪🤓

He didn’t buy that one. He bought a silver one close to home...

I'm disappointed!🤪😜

breld

Yeah. I got cold feet with the yellow and went with a more conservative silver.

abacomike

breld said:

Yeah. I got cold feet with the yellow and went with a more conservative silver.

Enjoy it! I just got a car in a bright silver - Iridium Silver which is very brilliant. I don't particularly like beiges and whites and silvers, but it was the only car available in the southeastern zone with 90% of the options I wanted and 10% of the options I didn't want. But the silver is growing on me - it doesn't show rain spots or road grime. The silver on the Supra is similar.

stickguy

I don't mind silver. I just don't want black leather with it.

tifighter

Had a lovely summer evening drive with the Mrs tonight in the Z4, complete with a stop for ice cream. It is nice to have a convertible in the stable again. The manual tranny doesn't hurt either (sorry Stick)...

stickguy

Your killing me Ti.

I hope you made the Mrs. eat her ice cream in the parking lot, not the car!