Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

fezo

You're one of two that has sworn off Ford for their hideous customer service. Too bad. They make some tempting vehicles but no thanks.

ab348

I have heard too many horror stories about Ford customer service on warranty issues in particular to ever seriously consider buying one. My sense is that Fords are like Nissans to me: styling that does not appeal, and materials that are barely acceptable. I do not get a sense of built-in quality.

roadburner

My local Ford dealer is simply inept beyond belief; a few years ago I emailed the parts department to ask if they had the synthetic fluid I use in my MS3 transaxle and they replied that they had several quarts. I stopped by the parts counter later in the day and the parts guy said that they didn't have any. I told him about my email and he responded that I should have called instead because the guy who handles the email is usually wrong.
Morons...

corvette

Theoretically, if the warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on, they should be selling the vehicle for thousands less.

roadburner

28firefighter said:

I agree with you. I'm just not ready to let Ford off the hook that easily. Not to mention, I'll never buy another Ford product if they don't take some steps to make it right - I realize I'm only one customer to them, but still.

I think Ford's SOP is to yank you around to the point that you finally give up and get rid of the car. I think they use a modified version of the Doritos business model:
"Screw ALL the Customers- We'll Just Hook More."

28firefighter

roadburner said:

I think Ford's SOP is to yank you around to the point that you finally give up and get rid of the car. I think they use a modified version of the Doritos business model:
"Screw ALL the Customers- We'll Just Hook More."

Heh. I think you're right.

Right now things work in our favor because the car is still sitting for a second week awaiting a replacement clutch. Apparently there is a 9 week back-order on clutches for the DCT - if that isn't telling, I don't know what is. I figure the longer it sits, the stronger my argument.

benjaminh

Unbelievable that Ford is still doing the same kind of things they did when I had my 2000 Focus. I thought QC had gone up at the blue oval??

stickguy

28, I hope they at least have her in a loaner.

xwesx

That all sounds quite bad, guys. I will say, though, that I have had nothing but stellar service on my Fiesta. I had it in a few times for warranty work. The second time, they had it for a WEEK because the horn was failing and the part took that long to get in there. The guy said, "Well, if you don't mind keeping the loaner over the weekend, we'll just keep your car here until we get the new horn installed. I'll write it up as a safety issue."

And, better than that was the fact that I only mentioned the horn in passing to the service adviser when I was going through my "list of items." I just said, "yeah, I don't like the horn on this car. It's as small as the car is, and it seems like nobody ever hears it when I use it." The guy asked me to hit it (which made me nervous, as we were inside a building and horns are deafening inside!), so I did, and its feeble croak sounded pathetic even inside. He said, "Yep, that's going on the list." LOL

Not that my car hasn't had issues (that maybe it should not have had from a QC perspective), but service at my local dealer is STELLAR.

xwesx

About that XT, though.....

I came across one that seems sorta promising near Denver (Golden, CO). How far away is that from breld and Michael?

Michaell

xwesx said:

About that XT, though..... I came across one that seems sorta promising near Denver (Golden, CO). How far away is that from breld and Michael?

Closer to him than me

fezo

rb - right on the money. With the dreaded Windstall I finally gave up and traded it in when we bought the Accord.

Speaking of the Accord with 320+K on it the catalytic converter is shot. Given the price of such an item I'm ready to declare the car dead but not until it's due for inspection. Maybe I can find one in a junk yard....

28firefighter

stickguy said:

28, I hope they at least have her in a loaner.

They do. Ford is not reimbursing it - the dealer is paying for it out of pocket. I'll say the dealer is stellar - but their hands are completely tied by Ford Corporate. 

roadburner

fezo said:

rb - right on the money. With the dreaded Windstall I finally gave up and traded it in when we bought the Accord.

Speaking of the Accord with 320+K on it the catalytic converter is shot. Given the price of such an item I'm ready to declare the car dead but not until it's due for inspection. Maybe I can find one in a junk yard....

For some reason I remember hearing that the Feds don't allow the sale of used catalytic convertors, but I may be wrong. That said, you can always try Cataclean; my son's X3 was throwing multiple "low catalyst efficiency" faults and I used a bottle according to the directions and it hasn't thrown that code for months. The esteemed "Doc" over on the "Tales From Under the Hood" thread says the product doesn't work but fortunately the X3's cats didn't know that- and Doc is unable to provide an alternate explanation for the results...

For $24 or so it might be worth a try...

stickguy

even a cat isn't that expensive. Rockauto has a bunch in the $125-$150 range (depending on which specific unit you need). not sure what labor would be. But, if it is otherwise OK, might be worth doing, even if just so you can get a fresh inspection sticker and sell it. Will get more than the repair cost out of it I would bet.

Michaell

Next step in the shopping process may happen tonight. Meet wife for dinner up by her office, which happens to be just down the street from the Subaru dealer. Asked her if she might be interested in looking at the Outback - she'd like to do that.

Still need to get the CX-7 up to CarMax for an evaluation.

fezo

A genuine Honda cat runs over $700. Must be reasonable aftermarket. I'll check out rb's cataclean...

henryn

28firefighter said:

stickguy said:

28, I hope they at least have her in a loaner.

They do. Ford is not reimbursing it - the dealer is paying for it out of pocket. I'll say the dealer is stellar - but their hands are completely tied by Ford Corporate. 

I have done business with a number of different Ford, Chevy, and Mopar dealers down through the years. I have to say, the factory does not care, it always seems that they are just trying to save money by limiting warranty expenditures. We recently heard of the travails that one of our regulars had with Audi about a defective clutch, so it would appear that Audi isn't really any better. And then there was the new Mercedes that came without one or more features listed as standard on the window sticker.

In every case, it comes down to the dealership. The factory pinches pennies and says "No", then it is up to the dealership to try and make things right. Sad state of affairs, really.

In my most recent two new car experiences, the Chevrolet service department was excellent, and Ford was bad. Close to being the worst I have ever seen.

stickguy

Fezo, I think cats are something way cheaper aftermarket. I always look at rock auto to get a baseline. Can also check at a local muffler shop. At 329k I don't think you need to worry about OEM!

henryn

RockAuto is indeed a great resource for checking part numbers and prices. I would get their price first, and then check your local muffler shop. The last time I had to do a catalytic converter, the local muffler shop came in nearly as cheap as RockAuto and their price was installed.

On a different subject, I'm starting to think very seriously about that used Hyundai Genesis that I drove last month. That particular one has been sold, but there are plenty more around. I did like that car, it was very fast, very quiet, very smooth.

There are very few new vehicles being sold that I fit comfortably in, the biggest problem being head room (I sit very tall). I was toying with the idea of a new CR-V, but there are a couple of problems with that. Number one, it's slow. Number two, to get any level of luxury you have to buy the EX or the EX-L, and both come only with a sun roof, which reduces the head room entirely too much for me. Now if I could get an EX-L without the sun roof and with a V6 or a turbo 4...


I just asked Q to give me a trade in value for my '13 F150 Crew Cab. I like the truck, but it's just too dam*ed big (especially the length). I live "inside the loop" here in Houston, and everywhere I go the parking spaces are very narrow. and the distance between rows is tight. Just going to WalMart, I have to see-saw two or three times to get into / out of a parking space. I have given some thought to trading it in for a new regular cab (Ford or Chevy), which would be much shorter and easier to park. But the only regular cabs that any of the dealers have in stock are "work trucks", most of which don't even have power windows.

qbrozen

what about the new colorado? Hell, I'd try to wait for that diesel to arrive.

henryn

I tried 2 different Chevy dealers last month (January), neither had Colorados in stock. At this point in time, I haven't been able to find one to try sitting in it. I do know the Toyota Tacoma and Nissan Frontier do not have enough head room for me.

Yes, the diesel option on the Colorado has definitely piqued my interest. But I just don't drive far enough any more. My commute is 5.3 miles one way, and I don't think a diesel would do well with a lot of short trips, and very little highway driving. Between my two vehicles, I have probably driven around 8k miles in the last 12 months.

The Genesis just pushed the right buttons for me. Would I rather be sitting up higher, as in my F150 or Tahoe? Yes, I would. But the Genesis was not that low to the ground, I could get in and out comfortably. And I still had head room despite the sun roof, which is very rare in my experience. The combination of luxury, the roomy interior, soft comfortable seats, and push you back in the seat acceleration reminded me of Cadillacs back when they still made cars that I could fit in.

jayrider

henryn said:

I tried 2 different Chevy dealers last month (January), neither had Colorados in stock. At this point in time, I haven't been able to find one to try sitting in it. I do know the Toyota Tacoma and Nissan Frontier do not have enough head room for me.

Yes, the diesel option on the Colorado has definitely piqued my interest. But I just don't drive far enough any more. My commute is 5.3 miles one way, and I don't think a diesel would do well with a lot of short trips, and very little highway driving. Between my two vehicles, I have probably driven around 8k miles in the last 12 months.

The Genesis just pushed the right buttons for me. Would I rather be sitting up higher, as in my F150 or Tahoe? Yes, I would. But the Genesis was not that low to the ground, I could get in and out comfortably. And I still had head room despite the sun roof, which is very rare in my experience. The combination of luxury, the roomy interior, soft comfortable seats, and push you back in the seat acceleration reminded me of Cadillacs back when they still made cars that I could fit in.

The LaCrosse is roomy and sits a bit higher than the Genesis. You can check it out or not.

breld

Had lunch with Michael this afternoon - great to have the opportunity to meet up face to face and talk cars, life, etc.!

stickguy

Did you buy a car with him? Only makes sense.

brian125

henryn said:

RockAuto is indeed a great resource for checking part numbers and prices. I would get their price first, and then check your local muffler shop. The last time I had to do a catalytic converter, the local muffler shop came in nearly as cheap as RockAuto and their price was installed.
............................................................................................................................................................................

Another very good auto website is http://www.partsgeek.com/ Excellent prices. better than rock auto. They have a big warehouse in Marlton, or Cherry Hill NJ.

Not sure with most states but in NY and CA the new Emission laws state.... You cant not ship a catalytic converter from another state. My friend in NY shipped his Toyota's front Converter costing 400 dollars from parts geek to NJ to a friends house . This part cost $1500 for the OEM part in NY at dealerships .

As far as the Genesis goes if your a big guy this vehicle is a top choice and should be on your very short list. Its bigger inside than all in its class, very Fast whether you have the 330 h/p V-6 or the 429 h/p V-8. Its Ultra quite inside the cabin whether your doing 60 mph or 120. Its luxurious all wrapped up under the Hyundai badging. A diamond in the ruff. The 2015 model is a stand out with its upgraded suspension modes.

28firefighter

Ford Corporate's Social Media group got back to me and said the CSM that I had spoken with by phone is the final decision point.

I think I've exhausted the non-litigious approach.

abacomike

28firefighter said:

Ford Corporate's Social Media group got back to me and said the CSM that I had spoken with by phone is the final decision point. I think I've exhausted the non-litigious approach.

So very sorry you are having such frustrating experiences with the Ford Motor Company.  I have been following your trials and tribulations on CCBA regarding your clutch situation.  I was hoping Ford would have done right by you, but it would appear they really don't care about the consumer.  Your experience has turned me off Ford regarding any future additions to my fleet, including Lincoln and Mustang.

I know there are many car buyers here who follow this forum who are going to think twice before ever buying a Ford product because of the way they treated you.

Good luck, FF.

Michaell

stickguy said:

Did you buy a car with him? Only makes sense.

I know he's got the 535 up for sale, but I don't think it would make a good pizza delivery vehicle.

And, the wife doesn't want a sedan....

abacomike

28firefighter said:

Ford Corporate's Social Media group got back to me and said the CSM that I had spoken with by phone is the final decision point. I think I've exhausted the non-litigious approach.

FF, I have to believe there is some movement afoot by owners who are facing the same problem as your sister.  What about the start of a class action suit?

ab348

abacomike said:

28firefighter said:

Ford Corporate's Social Media group got back to me and said the CSM that I had spoken with by phone is the final decision point.

I think I've exhausted the non-litigious approach.

FF, I have to believe there is some movement afoot by owners who are facing the same problem as your sister.  What about the start of a class action suit?

https://www.facebook.com/fordfocuslemonowners/info?tab=page_info

Also this sounds similar to yours:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHXelGqmK1M

28firefighter

ab348 said:

abacomike said:

28firefighter said:

Ford Corporate's Social Media group got back to me and said the CSM that I had spoken with by phone is the final decision point.

I think I've exhausted the non-litigious approach.

FF, I have to believe there is some movement afoot by owners who are facing the same problem as your sister.  What about the start of a class action suit?

https://www.facebook.com/fordfocuslemonowners/info?tab=page_info

Thanks for that - I've reached out to some law school colleagues to see if any of them deal with this kind of work. We shall see.

Michaell

And so it begins.

Called the Subaru dealer to see if they have a 3.6 Outback on the lot. Salesperson tells me computers are down; she has to look at the board. Waiting for a call back.

Starts asking me all sorts of closing questions - do you have a trade? is there a payoff on it? I tell her that we are just evaluating the car tonight - no deal to be made. Told her we are also looking at the Hyundai Santa Fe Sport and Jeep Cherokee Limited. She promotes resale value and Eyesight. I tell her the Subaru doesn't offer a heated steering wheel or ventilated seats, which may or may not be important to the spouse.

We will see. If they have one, we'll head over there in a couple of hours. If not, then we won't.

henryn

Michaell said:

And so it begins.

Called the Subaru dealer to see if they have a 3.6 Outback on the lot. Salesperson tells me computers are down; she has to look at the board. Waiting for a call back.

.

New car dealers seem to have a real problem with computers and technology. In general, their web sites suck swamp water, and their inventory is totally screwed up. You absolutely cannot trust what they show on their web site, they will list cars that they don't have, and many cars they do have will not be listed.

And some of them can't even find cars that they claim to have, running around in circles, "I know we have that car, I have the key in my hand, but I cannot find it."

Michaell

henryn said:

And so it begins. Called the Subaru dealer to see if they have a 3.6 Outback on the lot. Salesperson tells me computers are down; she has to look at the board. Waiting for a call back. .

New car dealers seem to have a real problem with computers and technology. In general, their web sites suck swamp water, and their inventory is totally screwed up. You absolutely cannot trust what they show on their web site, they will list cars that they don't have, and many cars they do have will not be listed. And some of them can't even find cars that they claim to have, running around in circles, "I know we have that car, I have the key in my hand, but I cannot find it."

I don't know if her comment about the computers being down was true or simply a ploy to get me to come to the dealership.I have been perfectly clear that unless the car is in stock and on the dealership lot I won't be visiting.

Michaell

The dealership website shows 1 3.6R in stock and 4 more on the way – None of which are in the preferred color combination

abacomike

henryn said:

And so it begins. Called the Subaru dealer to see if they have a 3.6 Outback on the lot. Salesperson tells me computers are down; she has to look at the board. Waiting for a call back. .

New car dealers seem to have a real problem with computers and technology. In general, their web sites suck swamp water, and their inventory is totally screwed up. You absolutely cannot trust what they show on their web site, they will list cars that they don't have, and many cars they do have will not be listed. And some of them can't even find cars that they claim to have, running around in circles, "I know we have that car, I have the key in my hand, but I cannot find it."

The real problem with car dealerships and technology has to do with compatibility.  One piece of software keeps tabs on customer data.  Another software program keeps tabs on internal vehicle inventory.  Then there is the manufacturer's software that is somewhat redundant to the dealer's inventory software program, but is not compatible with each other.  Then there is lease software (uses data from financial arm like residuals and money factors), loan software, ordering software, etc.

I just remember that all of the technology I used to run the sales desk was incompatible with many other programs.  I believe the same thing is still happening - lots of technology and software that cannot "talk" to each other.

boomchek

Here's the deal with new car inventory. New cars get traded between dealers daily, as well as deposits get put on some vehicles while finance is pending, so sometimes cars that "show" that they're available might not actually be available. Also sometimes incoming units might be automatically fed into the system when they haven't actually arrived yet.

I always made a point to physically "touch" the car someone wanted to come and see, and made sure there was gas in it and plastic was off so that it didn't look like it just arrived off a truck after a 10 hour transport journey.

Also some dealers will have an off site storage yard due to space limitations, so not all cars listed might be on the actual dealer lot.

And with the amount of people calling asking about what's in stock, and promising to come see it if it is, many salespeople just won't bother because they heard promises before of customers coming to look at something only to never show up.

Michaell

Apparently the one car that we were interested in has been sold. So, no test drive this evening. 

The salesperson did try to convince us to come in to drive both a 2013 and a 2014 used 3.6– "It drives the same!"

yeah but it is the old body style and does not have the technology we are interested in. Pass. 

stickguy

go anyway. Try out the Santa Fe, and can go play with a 2.5i limited outback. Only thing different really is the engine. at least can get a good feel for looks, room, comfort, toys, etc.

I just like looking.

Also, I was expecting you would find this. The 3.6 model is much rarer. I would guess 5%?

stever

@28firefighter, there's nothing like getting a big fat class-action settlement coupon in the mail...for $500 off a new Ford vehicle.

Ford's been okay by me; my stock tripled since they hocked the farm. Too bad I only got 100 shares.

I think I'd pursue the warranty claim instead of trying for a class action. Seems like there'd be a much better chance of settlement. That's a good reason not to buy a new Toyota or Mercedes and a few other brands (Honda, maybe BMW?). They have mandatory binding arbitration clauses so you can't sue them. Toyota initially tried to hide behind that when the number of sudden unintended acceleration cases started building. (linky)

stickguy

some of the dealers near me have pretty good sites that seem to be mostly up to date. But a few other are just terrible. Hard to use, no basis in reality. But what bugs me even more are the ones where they don't list the equipment/options in any way that you can find. You pretty much have to guess based on price.

imidazol97

ab348 said:

That's a powerful video of the car having problems and then clearing after sitting.
Shades of Toyota's problems with runaway acceleration.

abacomike

stickguy said:

some of the dealers near me have pretty good sites that seem to be mostly up to date. But a few other are just terrible. Hard to use, no basis in reality. But what bugs me even more are the ones where they don't list the equipment/options in any way that you can find. You pretty much have to guess based on price.

The quality and versatility of a dealership's website is solely dependent on the subcontractor used to update inventory lists, take photos of inventory from several angles and physically post photos, options, etc.  No dealership can afford the cost involved in keeping accurate inventories on the website up-to-date.  Most depend on a subcontractor to keep the website current, accurate and simple to navigate.

In both dealerships I worked, we used a contractor to manage the website.  A decent contractor spends at least 6 hours a day on site updating the website, removing sold vehicles from inventory, adding new inventory, and checking for accuracy.

stickguy

one thing I like is where they give a link to the window sticker. I know the Caddy dealer QB got his V sport from has that, and I have seen it elsewhere. Makes it really easy to know what you are dealing with.

corvette

abacomike said:

A decent contractor spends at least 6 hours a day on site updating the website, removing sold vehicles from inventory, adding new inventory, and checking for accuracy.

That sounds expensive!

Mr_Shiftright

That smells like a PCM problem doesn't it?

imidazol97 said:

ab348 said:

That's a powerful video of the car having problems and then clearing after sitting.
Shades of Toyota's problems with runaway acceleration.

nyccarguy

laurasdada said:

A road trip from Boston to Brooklyn this weekend, a wedding. I95, nice enough road through southern MA, my former home state of CT (Bridgeport remains "unattractive" from 95), cross into the happy hunting grounds of Fairfield, Southport, Westport and Norwalk of my youth. Stamford, the Sheraton is now a Hilton, remember to wave to Bradd (although I believe he lives closer to the Merritt?) and into Greenwich where I had a lovely time at the Greenwich Concours d'Elegance this past summer. I love the smell of fabulous wealth in the morning.

Cross into New York, and instantly 95 becomes more Beirut-like. Suddenly, hidden by a crease/lip in the road, is the Grand Canyon....pothole. Boom! I stare at the dash, awaiting the TPMS to do it's Snoopy Christmas tree imitation. Relief, nothing. Pull over for a visual, all seems well. Woohoo, Continental!

Hit the Bruckner, there is apparently a friendly NYC greeter using the Expressway as a sidewalk. He is walking against traffic in the middle of the road, chatting away on his cell phone. Not being a New Yorker, I swerve to avoid him and wish him well with the rest of his walkabout. I begin to note that in NY, the left lane apparently is for slower traffic, all passing to be done to the right.

Arrive at the Brooklyn Bridge Marriott, get all fancied up and catch a car to the Liberty Warehouse for a lovely wedding. Possibly the most handsome gathering of people I've seen in one place in quite some time. Hi, my name is Sore Thumb, a pleasure to be ignored by you! Great view of lower Manhattan and Lady Liberty. Much celebrating and surprisingly good food, cab back to the hotel, breath caught and sleep sought.

Next morning, nice, informal brunch in the top floor suite of the parents of the bride. Lovely people and conversation. The bride and groom make an appearance, she as lovely as the night before, but changed into casual attire. He, in the same tux as the night before, looking just a tad more worn. But, both happy and excited to be heading to Tahiti.

Time to head back to the land of the past, current and future Super Bowl champion New England Patriots. Quick glance at the tire, all seems well. No pinball game on the dash and off I go, ready to play gymkhana on I278 and I95. Uneventful ride home, the snowpocalypse begins shortly after I enter the Commonwealth. I arrive home, take a final look at the right front tire, and, sure enough, a PC mouse shaped bubble has arisen. Likely missed it in earlier inspections? But, it got me home and a new shoe is on order for Tuesday (bloody expensive OEM Contis!!!! Basically doubled the cost of my road trip).

So, do I actually re-shoe the XF or is it time for a new car!!!

HA! That crease is in the left lane right when you cross into The Bronx (NYC Line) from Westcester. I hit that a few times in my BMW - BOOM -! Now you know part of the reason I went with the softer sprung Subie with thicker side walls.

You should have tested the XF out on the Bruckner. That's where people race at night.

roadburner

henryn said:

Michaell said:

And so it begins.

Called the Subaru dealer to see if they have a 3.6 Outback on the lot. Salesperson tells me computers are down; she has to look at the board. Waiting for a call back.

.

New car dealers seem to have a real problem with computers and technology. In general, their web sites suck swamp water, and their inventory is totally screwed up. You absolutely cannot trust what they show on their web site, they will list cars that they don't have, and many cars they do have will not be listed.

And some of them can't even find cars that they claim to have, running around in circles, "I know we have that car, I have the key in my hand, but I cannot find it."

And don't forget the "GET AN E-QUOTE!!!" button that only nets you annoying e-mails begging you to come down and test-drive a car...

roadburner

imidazol97 said:

ab348 said:

That's a powerful video of the car having problems and then clearing after sitting.
Shades of Toyota's problems with runaway acceleration.

I'm no fan of Toyota and I can't imagine even thinking of buying a new one, but I don't think anyone was able to replicate Toyota's "issue" without hacking into the ECU in a manner that could never happen in real life.