Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

houdini1

corvette said:

$30k will pay for a lot of vacations.

Exactly. Before you guys blackball me, a while back I counted up all the cars I have owned over the years, including all the company cars I have had, a couple of cars my parents bought for me, and all the cars I have bought for myself, my wife, and kids I got a grand total of 55.

A very interesting exercise, give it a try, I would like to see who holds the record ! I will be 73 in Jan. so I have have a good head start on most of you. If you start at the age when you got your first car, my average is about 1 car a year from age 16 to now.

Mr_Shiftright

I think we did some years ago, and if I recall correctly, you don't have quite enough for top spot but you'd definitely be in the top 5. Like you say, the older guys have the advantage because "back then" some used cars were very cheap, and very easy to fix up and flip. Also, some of us have lived long enough to maintain our bad habit year and year.

houdini1

Yes, as someone once said, "I have spent a lot of money on cars over the years....and just wasted the rest of it!"

fintail

Maybe you should get a hobby car, and as you are a Lexus fan, find a mint old one. Have gagrice sell you his old LS, or find a SC300 manual or something. They won't pull Porsche-like speculative price, but eventually someone will appreciate them.

ken117

Carnaught, those doc fees are not fees. They are simply the selling price separated into two parts, price and fake fee. Dealers use this tactic to deceive buyers into paying more. Dealers also use this tactic to enable them to advertise a lower price to lure buyers to the dealership.

No state or bank or car manufacturer requires these fees. Some states limit the amount dealers may call a doc fee, some do not. Dealer F&I folks use the word fee to attach some legitimacy to the fee. Not illegal, due to the power the dealers have over our elected officials, but certainly deceptive.

These doc fees are explained as to compensate the dealer for the the cost to the dealer to prepare the paper work for the sale. This is a dealer cost not a customer cost. The dealer's selling price includes all dealer cost and profit.

Regardless, in today's world of electronics, how much does it cost a dealer to prepare the paper work? Certainly not hundreds of dollars.

carnaught

Ken, totally agree. When we say doc. fee, we're using that term lightly. As I said, it's totally a dealer profit fudge-factor, and they're allowed to charge it.

stickguy

Pictures of the 2007 town car with 28k are up. Looks brand new. Someone should snag that baby.

nyccarguy

houdini1 said:

I have decided to pass on the 2014 Lexus LS. Reason? Just too many other ways to spend and enjoy that $30,000.+ difference I would have to cough up. Just a matter of priorities.

Blowing the whistle - Flag on the play!  Lol!

28firefighter

nyccarguy said:

houdini1 said:

I have decided to pass on the 2014 Lexus LS. Reason? Just too many other ways to spend and enjoy that $30,000.+ difference I would have to cough up. Just a matter of priorities.

Blowing the whistle - Flag on the play!  Lol!

5 yards. Repeat first down. 

tjc78

stickguy said:

Pictures of the 2007 town car with 28k are up. Looks brand new. Someone should snag that baby.

If it was a Signature Limited and fully loaded I would be test driving it Monday night.   I can't give up steering wheel controls and the wife likes heated seats both which my Marquis has.

Man is it in nice shape... Wow

abacomike

carnaught said:

Ken, totally agree. When we say doc. fee, we're using that term lightly. As I said, it's totally a dealer profit fudge-factor, and they're allowed to charge it.

This is exactly why I go into a dealership and give them my price to meet out the door!

When I bought my new CLS 400 this past Monday, I presented my numbers + trade allowance + any and all fees including title and tag fees.  

The invoice on the car was $73,155.  I offered them $19397.12 which included $6000 I had in fleet discounts from USAA, MERCEDES BENZ CLUB OF AMERICA and MBUSA, less trade allowance + sales tax and any other fees.

This approach to buying a new car works every time.  You make them an out the door offer which includes everything.  Remember,  the dealer has hidden profit in hold back money from the manufacturer + trunk money from the manufacturer + CSI monetary incentives.  The dealer never loses, but they can win big or small - it's up to the buyers to limit how much profit the dealer makes.  Ever meet a poor car dealership owner?

qbrozen

On the spreading around the miles thing: the wife and I just discussed this the other night. As nyccarguy said (thanks for the compliment, BTW), its a matter of buying another $40k-$50k car much sooner than I'd want. Let's take her $44k van... She drives 25k/yr. In 6 years, at 150k, we'd look to replace it and spend another $44k. OR spend another $16k, as we just did, on a spare, and put 12.5k miles on each. Now the $44k van lasts me 12 years (theoretically of course). Then let's say this $16k car gets swapped out every 3 years for half its value. That's $16k over 6 years. In scenario 1, i spent $44k and used it up in 6 years; in scenario 2, i used up $38k in that same 6 years. Yes, I will spend an extra $3k in insurance in that time, but, no, there is no extra maintenance cost since its the same number of miles. 

qbrozen

Cars/year? Just brought home #41. I have been driving for 25 years as of a couple of weeks ago. 

And, yes, put me in for a punch. So this morn we stopped to see another H3. Told him we wanted to think about it, but he did come out and say they would sell it for the number I had in mind. That was good but something felt a little off about the vehicle. We talked and decided we had a few more on our list to check off and then we'd be back on the way home.

called torchlight motors to ask about their 2008 xc90 but nobody answered the phone. So next we called Ramsey Volvo about a 2009 LR2 they advertised with no pics but only 32k miles and at a pretty cheap $16k. It was still there, an hour's drive away, and 2 other interested parties. So we figured we'd make that the next stop and then we could hit a couple of other places on the way home to see another Hummer and an RX400h. 

Had another text from pushy dealer saying all fees would be waived. I didn't reply. Meanwhile, got up to Ramsey in about 45 mins. Checked out the truck, looked as good as you'd want for the miles, took it for a quick spin, and told him we'd take it. The price was so good and I could find no fault with the car that I didn't want to argue about it. Fees were about $300 on the high side but even taking that into the selling price, we still good a very solid deal.

Sandman6472

Yes, we get royally screwed here in Florida with these bogus "doc fees" but I also always do an otd price as don't care where the numbers go as long as the final numbers meet mine. Really do hate the buying process as one never ever really knows if they did a really good job or just a so so one due to the hidden fees and incentives the dealers get. Sure, the internet has helped level the playing field a lot, one can only hope that in the end, the deal was fair for both sides.
Funny but a few days later, we all tend to forget it all and just enjoy our new vehicles. Best to not look back but just enjoy what's in the garage!

The Sandman

ab348

My ex-boss has/had a LR2. Nice rig, very solid. As you might expect, when things go bad, they get very expensive. He didn't have a whole lot of problems with his IIRC.

abacomike

@qbrozen:

i wish you you many years of driving pleasure in your new addition to the "stable!"  Great deal!

Mr_Shiftright

But...but.... Houdini.....love dies but possessions are forever.

28firefighter said:

nyccarguy said:

houdini1 said:

I have decided to pass on the 2014 Lexus LS. Reason? Just too many other ways to spend and enjoy that $30,000.+ difference I would have to cough up. Just a matter of priorities.

Blowing the whistle - Flag on the play!  Lol!

5 yards. Repeat first down. 

abacomike

sandman_6472 said:

Yes, we get royally screwed here in Florida with these bogus "doc fees" but I also always do an otd price as don't care where the numbers go as long as the final numbers meet mine. Really do hate the buying process as one never ever really knows if they did a really good job or just a so so one due to the hidden fees and incentives the dealers get. Sure, the internet has helped level the playing field a lot, one can only hope that in the end, the deal was fair for both sides. Funny but a few days later, we all tend to forget it all and just enjoy our new vehicles. Best to not look back but just enjoy what's in the garage! The Sandman

Good summary of the feelings I have about car buying here in Florida.  Did I get a good deal on my new car - yep!  But in a week or two, it really won't matter.  Now if I can get out of this darn hospital and get home to drive the car, that's all that matters.

corvette

abaco, hope you get well soon!

qbrozen, congrats on the punch! Sounds like a good deal.

Michaell

sandman_6472 said:

Yes, we get royally screwed here in Florida with these bogus "doc fees" but I also always do an otd price as don't care where the numbers go as long as the final numbers meet mine. Really do hate the buying process as one never ever really knows if they did a really good job or just a so so one due to the hidden fees and incentives the dealers get. Sure, the internet has helped level the playing field a lot, one can only hope that in the end, the deal was fair for both sides.
Funny but a few days later, we all tend to forget it all and just enjoy our new vehicles. Best to not look back but just enjoy what's in the garage!

The Sandman

Good summary .. I tell folks in these forums all the time that the pleasure of driving the new car will far outlast any feelings you had regarding the deal itself.

stickguy

Good deal Q. They look much classier than an H3. That looks like something that would get old real quick.

Looked up the ousting. Even has tech package. And can't beat the miles. Enjoy.

Though you still need another one, for when wife has that and the caddy is garaged!

stickguy

Huh. That dealer has the twin of my wife's RDX. Just about 4K less on the clock.

And an oddball. Sonata with a stick shift! May be 1 of 1 of those.

iluvmysephia1

Ever meet a poor car dealership owner? No, I have not. Even Hasty in the Jesse Stone movies is not poor. He's a game-player, dishonest and uses that goofy light-it-up bow tie to celebrate car sales, but the guy is never poor in the series. And I don't think viewers of Jesse Stone movies think he's hurting at all, either.

All of my Scion leanings are far out to the back of the backburner, now. I'm gonna hold with the 2011 Kia Soul 5-speed clear white base, and, I have an appointment Monday to get it's 60,000 mile timing belt replaced. I asked for a loaner car for this job, because I had a strong feeling they wouldn't get the job done in one workday, and, I want them to give me the 2014 Kia Soul dark green 6-speed they have for sale as the loaner car. I may have to ask for a stick Soul as my loaner. I've wondered how the Kia 6-speed setup in the newer Souls differs from my '11 bases' 5-speed stick with 2.0L motor. These things can be huge - if, per chance, I notice something different in Kia's 1.6L motor in the 2014 and/on Souls and their clutch setup, maybe, just maybe, I'll start long-term planning on a simple trade-in in 4 years or so for a 2020 Kia Soul base 6-speed. I am by no means unhappy with rowing gears in my 5-speed 2.0L Soul. No way, Jose. In red color by then, though, maybe? Truth be told, Kia wants base Soul models to be sold in white, graphite, black and silver. I can live with that, though. Wondering if they'll hold to that in several years or paint base model Souls in red by then, or that mustard yellow color people like ta hate but, of course, I seem ta like.

Actually, an online friend in northern Michigan who loves Kia even more than I do has been discussing on Facebook the new Kia GT sports sedan in the planning stages. It's production line has probably been selected, South Korea's oldest carmaker is deft at planning things way ahead, as they should. But, if Peter Schreyer (Kia's Design Chief, lured from Audi Motors) has his way, the car's design will lure many Americans in to the Kia ownership fold. RWD, I am hoping for 6-speed manual transmissions to row, no automatic-only positions from Kia, and a body to make a car guy melt in to Tucson's central-city pavement and beg for coolness possibilities, not a single question asked!

I may just wait for the Kia GT sports sedan, I mean, I have a Kia dealership in Dodge City, and, I'm just about to experience their service department. This will be a cool learning experience, I think, for a Kia fan who travels around.

A lot.

roadburner

qbrozen said:

Cars/year? Just brought home #41. I have been driving for 25 years as of a couple of weeks ago. 

And, yes, put me in for a punch. So this morn we stopped to see another H3. Told him we wanted to think about it, but he did come out and say they would sell it for the number I had in mind. That was good but something felt a little off about the vehicle. We talked and decided we had a few more on our list to check off and then we'd be back on the way home.

called torchlight motors to ask about their 2008 xc90 but nobody answered the phone. So next we called Ramsey Volvo about a 2009 LR2 they advertised with no pics but only 32k miles and at a pretty cheap $16k. It was still there, an hour's drive away, and 2 other interested parties. So we figured we'd make that the next stop and then we could hit a couple of other places on the way home to see another Hummer and an RX400h. 

Had another text from pushy dealer saying all fees would be waived. I didn't reply. Meanwhile, got up to Ramsey in about 45 mins. Checked out the truck, looked as good as you'd want for the miles, took it for a quick spin, and told him we'd take it. The price was so good and I could find no fault with the car that I didn't want to argue about it. Fees were about $300 on the high side but even taking that into the selling price, we still good a very solid deal.

Congrats! I'm hoping to work up the courage to buy a Land Rover someday...

nyccarguy

@qbrozen - Mazel-Tov & congrats on the LR2 Punch! You are welcome btw.

Mr_Shiftright

Best of luck with it Q

qbrozen

Thanks, all. Just realized today it doesn't have homelink? I find that a really odd omission. However, Siri works through the bluetooth, but not music streaming. Our 2014 Chrysler is precisely the opposite. Always baffles me when manufacturers can't seem to get the easy things right. 

abacomike

qbrozen said:

Thanks, all. Just realized today it doesn't have homelink? I find that a really odd omission. However, Siri works through the bluetooth, but not music streaming. Our 2014 Chrysler is precisely the opposite. Always baffles me when manufacturers can't seem to get the easy things right. 

If manufacturers got things right all the time, "q", there would be nothing to talk about, complain about or post about!  Right?  

stickguy

A lot of cars don't have Homelink that I would expect to have it. phone integration, that really fluctuates, but keep in mind it is a 2009 that came out in 2006, So it is ancient in technology terms.

and of course, it is a LR, so just be happy it starts!

corvette

Yeah, a lot of cars equipped with Bluetooth didn't have audio streaming support in 2009. My Yukon doesn't even have Bluetooth at all. I could rip out the Onstar and replace it with a Bluetooth adapter, or replace the nav unit with a newer one ($$$$). I think I will continue to use a 3.5mm cable for now.

fintail

I had a 1998 MB with Homelink, a 2002 model had it too. I think they started getting Bluetooth around 2007-08. I had a Charger rental about a year ago with no Bluetooth, surprising - my sister's 2012 Sonic has it.

ab348

My 2011 Buick Regal had Bluetooth for phone calls, but no streaming.

stickguy

My cars both have streaming, but I never use it. I actually rarely use the phone in the car to play anything, but if I do, I plug it into the USB plug.

carnaught

fintail said:

I had a 1998 MB with Homelink, a 2002 model had it too. I think they started getting Bluetooth around 2007-08. I had a Charger rental about a year ago with no Bluetooth, surprising - my sister's 2012 Sonic has it.

My first Bluetooth was on my 2004 Acura TL, I think one of the first models with it.

ab348

stickguy said:

My cars both have streaming, but I never use it. I actually rarely use the phone in the car to play anything, but if I do, I plug it into the USB plug.

The streaming is nice if you are making several stops, like a shopping trip, where you are in and out of the car. You can just leave the phone in your pocket and still have your tunes when you get back in the car.

stickguy

different strokes here. I just listen to XM.

PF_Flyer

We do enjoy having XM in the wife's vehicle. If I could get a decent discount on a second account, I'd get one of those kits to have it in my car and for use in the house.

fintail

I am a satellite radio addict now. Local radio here is iffy, I kind of like having a surprise about what song is next so homemade playlists don't work, etc. I bargained at my last renewal. I've never even used bluetooth streaming before.

I technically have 11 months left in the lease before a pull forward possibility, but I looked at a couple cars on the local dealer's lot today, just for the heck of it. I was disappointed in the misinformation - both were Tex cars, but the sticker said "leather" - sounds like a way to get sued once the new buyer finds out. One said "luxury package", when it was not a lux car. No posted price, which is a turn off too. This dealership changed hands relatively recently, and I fear this is the new way.

corvette

Sheesh, does MB let dealers print their own stickers?

fintail

These were CPO cars, so the stickers were dealer-made, but apparently to no accuracy standard. It might be that part of sales where knowing how to sell vastly trumps knowing the product.

berri

I like those dealers where they have an official looking price sticker that includes make up mark-up crap. That's a signal to just turn around and move on.

graphicguy

Q...Big Congrats on the Rover!

corvette

berri said:

I like those dealers where they have an official looking price sticker that includes make up mark-up crap. That's a signal to just turn around and move on.

Yes, and that explains the gold trim on most Lexuses and spoilers/pinstripes on a lot of Hondas in the 1990s.

tjc78

I like the Bluetooth streaming, no wires hanging around! It's only in the last two years or so really becoming commonplace. My 2012 Lacrosse with every option box checked only had it for phone. If you wanted music you had to plug in.

houdini1

fintail said:

I am a satellite radio addict now. Local radio here is iffy, I kind of like having a surprise about what song is next so homemade playlists don't work, etc. I bargained at my last renewal. I've never even used bluetooth streaming before.

I technically have 11 months left in the lease before a pull forward possibility, but I looked at a couple cars on the local dealer's lot today, just for the heck of it. I was disappointed in the misinformation - both were Tex cars, but the sticker said "leather" - sounds like a way to get sued once the new buyer finds out. One said "luxury package", when it was not a lux car. No posted price, which is a turn off too. This dealership changed hands relatively recently, and I fear this is the new way.

I have had satellite radio for about 4 years now, that is until this month. Had a renewal coming up and we had been paying about $100. annually for each of two cars. In the past I just called in near renewal and said I wanted to cancel the service. This always kicked off a big sales pitch that I could keep the old rate. This year they wanted to double to $200. for each car. When I called in to cancel they just said OK, so no more satellite radio. Actually in my wife's car it is still working 2 weeks past expiration.

sda

fintail said:

These were CPO cars, so the stickers were dealer-made, but apparently to no accuracy standard. It might be that part of sales where knowing how to sell vastly trumps knowing the product.

I would have thought that if it was a MB at a MB dealer, the sticker would be generated by the VIN, thus an accurate description of standard and optional equipment.

rayainsw

I drove the charger over 850 miles this past week – primarily to visit friends on the Florida Panhandle. I am now at just over 14,500 miles & just over 10 months in service.
The car drove perfectly, and averaged over 25 MPG [ the highway EPA rating], including some ‘in town, running around’ miles. And averaging over 70 MPH for significant stretches of Interstate.
The last fuel fill was over 400 miles – showing 27.2 MPG and 30 miles Range remaining \ ‘Distance To Empty’. Again, including some less-than-ideal driving conditions.
[ Actual MPG for this leg = 26.0 - 19 gallon tank. ]
It still shows no wear. Tires still show excellent tread. No rattles, squeaks, moans or groans.
- Ray
No excuse to trade – just yet . . .
[ Wait - do I need an excuse \ reason ????? ]

suydam

Re: have had satellite radio for about 4 years now, that is until this month. Had a renewal coming up and we had been paying about $100. annually for each of two cars. In the past I just called in near renewal and said I wanted to cancel the service. This always kicked off a big sales pitch that I could keep the old rate. This year they wanted to double to $200. for each car. When I called in to cancel they just said OK, so no more satellite radio. Actually in my wife's car it is still working 2 weeks past expiration.


After about 2 weeks cancellation you'll get some good offers in the mail. So you will have it back before long. I just renewed mine for one car. I had to ask for a supervisor to get the promo rate again. I'll have to go through the same song and dance this week for the other car. Such silly games they play.

Michaell

suydam said:

Re: have had satellite radio for about 4 years now, that is until this month. Had a renewal coming up and we had been paying about $100. annually for each of two cars. In the past I just called in near renewal and said I wanted to cancel the service. This always kicked off a big sales pitch that I could keep the old rate. This year they wanted to double to $200. for each car. When I called in to cancel they just said OK, so no more satellite radio. Actually in my wife's car it is still working 2 weeks past expiration.


After about 2 weeks cancellation you'll get some good offers in the mail. So you will have it back before long. I just renewed mine for one car. I had to ask for a supervisor to get the promo rate again. I'll have to go through the same song and dance this week for the other car. Such silly games they play.

FYI, Sirius/XM have activated all cancelled subscriptions through 12/6 as a promotion - that probably explains why it's still working.

stickguy

If you do want to just go on normal rates, the additional radios are discounted. Last I did that it was ~$15 for the primary and ~$10 each secondary per month.

Right now I have separate accounts on all 3 cars thanks to rolling over promo intro periods. A pain to keep them straight, but it is saving me money! At some point I probably consolidate. But not yet.