Chronic Car Buyers Anonymous (Archived)

Michaell

Had a long talk with my sister this morning.

Apparently, the ZHP is on its last legs. They had it into their indy shop this week and it needs $thousands in repair and maintenance. I didn't get a full list, but she's ready to cut it from the herd. They invested $250 into it to make it presentable for trade.

So, off to CarMax they go. $15,000 budget for my nephew, who will be making the payment and dealing with the maintenance, but my sister is covering the insurance.

They find a 2009 GTI with 52K on it up in the LA area, and they've agreed to have it transferred to their local store - should be there today. White, 2-door, automatic (DSG?). No obligation to buy once they've had a chance to drive it and have their mechanic go over it. I think the price is $14,997.

Remember, this is the sister who bought an RX-7 when she was 19, and her husband bought an Integra in his early 20's, so they don't really have much room to push something reliable and sensible onto my nephew.

Told my sister about the DSG transmission, and to confirm that it's had a service recently.

Then, she tells me she also wants to get rid of her car for something less expensive as nephew #2 turns 16 later this year.

Her current ride is a G37 Coupe. I can't remember the year or the mileage - I'll have to get those from her.

She wants to lease a Tiguan - which is not a terrible choice as the MF is really low and the discounts are considerable.

Tried to give her a leasing primer over the phone, but I'm not sure how much of it stuck. Told her that she needs to contact me directly when she has some prices and needs the lease numbers (sound familiar, @breld ?).

We shall see what the family ends up with.

Michaell

PS - my sister is a 'style over substance' kind of gal. I told her the engines in the Tiguan and the GTI were the same, and she was surprised by that.

Sigh.

stickguy

long distance "3rd base coaching" is not fun. And worse when the buyer is clueless. And even worse when it is a lease. Though can just say to heck with it, and just shop lease payment, and not care about anything else.

Michaell

stickguy said:

long distance "3rd base coaching" is not fun. And worse when the buyer is clueless. And even worse when it is a lease. Though can just say to heck with it, and just shop lease payment, and not care about anything else.

I specifically told my sister not to negotiate the payment, but the selling price.

She, of course, saw the $179/mo lease special on the Tiguan S. Explained to her that it required money down, which makes the effective payment much higher.

Current Tiguan lease numbers are .00010 MF and a 36/15 residual ranging from 51% (SEL) to 56% (S). Lease cash ranges from $1250 to $2250, depending on trim.

stickguy

most non car people can barely understand "selling price" on a straight out buy. Start adding in a trade if there is one, and the sharks feed. I can't imagine that type being at all able to understand the terms (and frankly the F&I shell games) on a lease worksheet. Heck, I spend too much time here, researched everything, did my own (crude) lease calculations spreadsheet, and still had to read the paperwork a few times to try and understand all the moving parts in the numbers!

If nothing else, settle on a framework that every deal has to fit into (for me, it was I write a check for $1,000, and take the car, and will make 35 more payments of XX on a 36,000 mile lease). Yeah, the dealer can 3 card monte the bits and pieces all over the table, but bottom line, there is only 1 variable in the equation (monthly payment). Even a neophyte that doesn't understand finance should stay out of big trouble that way, if they have basic prep on ~ what that payment # should be.

Mr_Shiftright

Michaell said:

stickguy said:

long distance "3rd base coaching" is not fun. And worse when the buyer is clueless. And even worse when it is a lease. Though can just say to heck with it, and just shop lease payment, and not care about anything else.

I specifically told my sister not to negotiate the payment, but the selling price.

She, of course, saw the $179/mo lease special on the Tiguan S. Explained to her that it required money down, which makes the effective payment much higher.

Current Tiguan lease numbers are .00010 MF and a 36/15 residual ranging from 51% (SEL) to 56% (S). Lease cash ranges from $1250 to $2250, depending on trim.

10 years is old age for a BMW in my book at any rate.

stickguy

yeah, as much as I always loved the E46, at this point I don't think I want to get involved. Certainly not as my DD (not that I drive much daily!). Would have to be as a spare toy, and I would want one were someone else just spent the many thousands of $$ doing all the old-age rehab.

Mr_Shiftright

BMWs seem to get very needy as they age. They aren't as sturdy as one might think. More like "average". You can go bottoms up on a used one pretty quickly.

Sandman6472

Have checked out the Tiguan lately and the sweet spot seems to be the "SE" model. Has everything one really needs without getting the 18" sneakers, 17's are more than adequate in this vehicle. And the tire price goes up considerably from 16" to 19" and above. We're at 17" now, where I'd like to stay.
Tiguan is a sweet vehicle!

The Sandman

stickguy

here's a drop top equipped right. Big motor, sport seats, stick shift. Flashy though, and kind of pricey for a 2012.

http://www.bmwofdevon.com/certified/BMW/2012-BMW-135i+Convertible-devon+pa-51c2d0f80a0e0adf41731964c6569e1a.htm

and look at this. A black over red coupe with the right stats (3+2 - 3 pedals, 2 wheels pushing!). Lightly equipped 135, but I could live with it. Just have to budget for at least 2 broken wheels each winter. Maybe more. Would probably have to leave it in my garage just to be safe.

http://www.bmwofdevon.com/certified/BMW/2013-BMW-135i+Coupe-devon+pa-d8859c330a0e0ae70665653553dc4baf.htm

au1994

stickguy said:

yeah, as much as I always loved the E46, at this point I don't think I want to get involved. Certainly not as my DD (not that I drive much daily!). Would have to be as a spare toy, and I would want one were someone else just spent the many thousands of $$ doing all the old-age rehab.

That's what my ZHP was originally intended for, toy status. When it became a DD, the wear and age started to show. Nothing a couple of grand couldn't fix of course.

Michaell

sandman_6472 said:

Have checked out the Tiguan lately and the sweet spot seems to be the "SE" model. Has everything one really needs without getting the 18" sneakers, 17's are more than adequate in this vehicle. And the tire price goes up considerably from 16" to 19" and above. We're at 17" now, where I'd like to stay.
Tiguan is a sweet vehicle!

The Sandman

Funny, my sister wants to upgrade to the 19" wheels if she got the Tiguan. At the moment, her Navigator has 22's on it.

But, she also complained about the wheel and tire issues on the ZHP.

Go figure.

ab348

stickguy said:

If nothing else, settle on a framework that every deal has to fit into (for me, it was I write a check for $1,000, and take the car, and will make 35 more payments of XX on a 36,000 mile lease). Yeah, the dealer can 3 card monte the bits and pieces all over the table, but bottom line, there is only 1 variable in the equation (monthly payment). Even a neophyte that doesn't understand finance should stay out of big trouble that way, if they have basic prep on ~ what that payment # should be.

Y'know, it should be that easy. But when you've spent an hour with the sales and finance people talking numbers, the "fog of war" sets in and it is easy to sign on for something that is different from what you vowed you would never do. They just grind you down.

stickguy

I'm going out on a limb, but I will bet that the roads around San Diego are way less bombed out than the mess we have to deal with up here in the northeast.

breld

@Michaell - once your sister settles on a particular trim level and options, just give her an acceptable range of monthly payments and $ down. She doesn't necessarily need to understand all the underlying data - she is fortunate to have you for that!

Looked at a few cars today:

Certified RC350 - I kinda like the "in-your-face" styling and definitely like the Lexus cockpits. Test drive left me a little underwhelmed though. I expected more from the drivetrain performance - acceleration was okay but not quite as exhilarating as I would've thought, the sound of the engine was course, and the transmission, even in sport mode, seemed to be a little off. Still a nice car - but other than the reliability reputation (which is significant), I like my Audi and past BMWs better.

So...went to check out a couple used BMWs at a nearby dealership:

2014 435

2016 328i wagon

The coupe was pretty awesome. Very responsive trannie; that engine is of course a gem. I like the seating position, and there's very usable room in the backseat - my wife and stepson sat back there for the test drive.

Loved the wagon too - would prefer the m-sport package (mostly for the steering wheel), but the sport package on this distinguishes the wagon nicely from the standard trim. I do like the 4 cylinder too - there's a certain playful, athletic spirit to it.

So, like both styles for different reasons. I think the 4-series gran coupe would be a great compromise - sleek styling of the coupe combined with the functionality of rear doors and a hatchback.

No rush though - drove away in the S4 very happy.

stickguy

now that wagon, I like that wagon. Seriously sharp. Perfect. I think I just changed to a new "next car in 19 months"! love the colors.

breld

Well in 19 months, there should be many more wagons available for you to choose from @stickguy! This one was really nice, but it was a 2016 with only a handful of miles (it was a service loaner), so it wasn't priced all that much lower than a new one.

corvette

I'm jealous of the lessees here--they know they're going to be in the market in X months!

stickguy

I'm thinking that in fall, 2017, when the 2018s are out, I'll be happy to pick up one like that 2016 for mid-$20s. Hey, it's a plan.

Sandman6472

Gorgeous blue color on that wagon, totally loved the vehicle except the size...too big! Would definitely go with a Tiguan before this BMW, just prefer the size. But, still happy in the Golf right now and staying the course. To date, have seen a couple just like mine in that color so glad they aren't flooding the market down here.

The Sandman

nyccarguy

@breld, I think that you and @qbrozen are both going to have trouble punching the card, due to the fact that your current daily drivers (S4 & CTS V-Sport) are just that damn good.  However, your test drive impressions are fun to read.

breld

@nyccarguy - yeah, that's exactly what my wife and I said to each other today. There will obviously come a time when I'll want a change for the sake of change (often the case), but when you get back in your car after a test drive and find that what you have is still the better vehicle, even I have a hard time making a move.

Good problem to have for sure.

stickguy

I agree that every time you take another step up the ladder, it is hard to go back down with the next set of wheels!

qbrozen

nyccarguy said:

@breld, I think that you and @qbrozen are both going to have trouble punching the card, due to the fact that your current daily drivers (S4 & CTS V-Sport) are just that damn good.  However, your test drive impressions are fun to read.

There really is nothing within reason that I would consider to replace the caddy. But I do have other vehicles I could punch with.

stever

corvette said:

I'm jealous of the lessees here--they know they're going to be in the market in X months!

Not me - I'd start getting "dealer anxiety" the second month of ownership. The nice thing about driving them forever (or buying used from individuals) is avoiding the dealer games. And instead of wasting an hour in the fog at the showroom, just insist on doing the money dance by email.

qbrozen

corvette said:

I'm jealous of the lessees here--they know they're going to be in the market in X months!

I see it as being stuck with the same thing for X months.

henryn

My 2006 DTS was dead yesterday morning. No warnings, fine one day, battery completely dead the next morning. The battery was an AC Delco, date code P082R. That should be August of 2012, so only about 3.5 years old.

I went ahead and bought a new battery at O'Reillys Auto Parts, closest place to me. Now I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the problem actually was a bad battery, and not an electrical drain. If there is a problem with the electrical system, the cost of having that fixed will probably make the new battery look really cheap!

I was thinking back, and I can remember 4 occasions over the last few years with a dead battery and no obvious cause (lights left on, etc). In every case, a new battery cured all ills.

stickguy

dealer anxiety? Half the fun is going in to visit dealers. Meet so many nice people that way!

though I also don't get out of the house much.

imidazol97

henryn said:

My 2006 DTS was dead yesterday morning. No warnings, fine one day, battery completely dead the next morning. The battery was an AC Delco, date code P082R. That should be August of 2012, so only about 3.5 years old.

I went ahead and bought a new battery at O'Reillys Auto Parts, closest place to me. Now I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the problem actually was a bad battery, and not an electrical drain. If there is a problem with the electrical system, the cost of having that fixed will probably make the new battery look really cheap!

I was thinking back, and I can remember 4 occasions over the last few years with a dead battery and no obvious cause (lights left on, etc). In every case, a new battery cured all ills.

Did it give any signs? Slight change in the cranking speed?

corvette

I have an electronic battery analyzer I bought from Harbor Freight. No idea how accurate it is, but I measure the CCA with that every 1,000 miles when I check the tread depth on my tires. (I live a very exciting life! )

breld

qbrozen said:

corvette said:

I'm jealous of the lessees here--they know they're going to be in the market in X months!

I see it as being stuck with the same thing for X months.

Exactly.

graphicguy

ab348 said:

stickguy said:

If nothing else, settle on a framework that every deal has to fit into (for me, it was I write a check for $1,000, and take the car, and will make 35 more payments of XX on a 36,000 mile lease). Yeah, the dealer can 3 card monte the bits and pieces all over the table, but bottom line, there is only 1 variable in the equation (monthly payment). Even a neophyte that doesn't understand finance should stay out of big trouble that way, if they have basic prep on ~ what that payment # should be.

Y'know, it should be that easy. But when you've spent an hour with the sales and finance people talking numbers, the "fog of war" sets in and it is easy to sign on for something that is different from what you vowed you would never do. They just grind you down.

breld...good point. "Fog of war" is an apt description. I always try to take out all the variables before hitting the dealership(s). Purchase price + tax + license....if I'm financing, have the APR + tax + license, bank rate, loan fees (if any) and monthly payments already figured at the preferred lender. That's what I'm working with. Sometimes, I even go so far as put a spread sheet together to answer the invariable "how did you come up with that number" question. I show them exactly how I came up with it.

How the dealer divides up those amounts to put in their individual buckets (i.e. to cover the alleged doc fee) is totally up to them. My numbers don't change.

tjc78

I must be a minority but my 2004 had the original Motorcraft battery until last winter.  It did show the signs and few days later on a frosty morning it gave up. 

slorenzen

tjc78 said:

I must be a minority but my 2004 had the original Motorcraft battery until last winter.  It did show the signs and few days later on a frosty morning it gave up. 

I changed the battery in the wife's car when it was 8 years old. No sign of failure, but I didn't want to push it, since it's her car.

Mine's a manual transmission, so if I have to...

breld

Went and checked this out as a "fun car" for the wife:

2012 Mini Cooper

It's at a Fiat/Alfa Romeo dealership in a not-so-great part of metro Denver. There's a ton of dealerships in this area that (from my extensive experience) are way "old-school" and generally unpleasant. Really not so sure how the Alfa Romeo side will be successful in this location.

True to form, wife and I walk in and the salesperson (actually sales manager) walks up and literally just stares at us. I honestly think he was annoyed that we walked in during Peyton Manning's retirement press conference. Big pet peeve of mine at any retail place - a "What can I do for you?" or "What brings you in today?" is entirely appropriate, don't you think?

But, I finally break the ice and introduce ourselves and say what vehicle we're interested in.

Test drive was surprisingly fun. We weren't sure abou the "non-S" version of these Coopers, but with the stick, it's a very engaging drive. Shifted nicely. This particular car, with just under 20k miles, is in great condition.

@qbrozen already weighed in and thought their asking price of $13,500 was pretty good (makes sense, since they've had the car since late December). After the drive, I offered $12,000. Not surprisingly, they came back and said they couldn't do that, but after some back and forth and going through all the standard and annoying tacked on fees, they said they could do it for...$13,500. Uh, you mean you could come all the way down to your advertised asking price? How accommodating of you.

I said I'd do $13,000 and they let us walk. We'll see if they call or not.

henryn

imidazol97 said:

henryn said:

My 2006 DTS was dead yesterday morning. No warnings, fine one day, battery completely dead the next morning. The battery was an AC Delco, date code P082R. That should be August of 2012, so only about 3.5 years old.

I went ahead and bought a new battery at O'Reillys Auto Parts, closest place to me. Now I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the problem actually was a bad battery, and not an electrical drain. If there is a problem with the electrical system, the cost of having that fixed will probably make the new battery look really cheap!

I was thinking back, and I can remember 4 occasions over the last few years with a dead battery and no obvious cause (lights left on, etc). In every case, a new battery cured all ills.

Did it give any signs? Slight change in the cranking speed?

Absolutely no sign. Like most modern cars, you just "twist the key and release", and the car is running. I'm sure many of the old timers here can tell stories about how it used to be in the old days, "Give it more gas, it'll never start", versus, "Don't give it gas, you're going to flood it!".

Ah, the good old days. I don't miss them!

Mr_Shiftright

carburetors are dumb; fuel injection is smart.

roadburner

graphicguy said:

breld...good point. "Fog of war" is an apt description. I always try to take out all the variables before hitting the dealership(s). Purchase price + tax + license....if I'm financing, have the APR + tax + license, bank rate, loan fees (if any) and monthly payments already figured at the preferred lender. That's what I'm working with. Sometimes, I even go so far as put a spread sheet together to answer the invariable "how did you come up with that number" question. I show them exactly how I came up with it.

How the dealer divides up those amounts to put in their individual buckets (i.e. to cover the alleged doc fee) is totally up to them. My numbers don't change.

That's what I do- and I give the dealer an out-the-door number. I don't care how they break it out on their end.

breld

roadburner said:

graphicguy said:

breld...good point. "Fog of war" is an apt description. I always try to take out all the variables before hitting the dealership(s). Purchase price + tax + license....if I'm financing, have the APR + tax + license, bank rate, loan fees (if any) and monthly payments already figured at the preferred lender. That's what I'm working with. Sometimes, I even go so far as put a spread sheet together to answer the invariable "how did you come up with that number" question. I show them exactly how I came up with it.

How the dealer divides up those amounts to put in their individual buckets (i.e. to cover the alleged doc fee) is totally up to them. My numbers don't change.

That's what I do- and I give the dealer an out-the-door number. I don't care how they break it out on their end.

Yup - that's what I did today. I wanted the Mini for $13k plus tax. They finally called as we were driving home from work and accepted our offer (so the Mini is in our driveway).

But yeah - the paperwork says $12,100 plus $499 dealer handling, plus $399 for some protection package. So, $13k plus tax. No difference to me how they came to it.

Obviously there's plenty of consumers who will agree on a price and not pay attention to the additional fees that the dealership presents as mandatory, as if they are some sort of government mandated tax. That's why so many dealers still do it, right?

And did I mention - punch!

roadburner

Congrats!!!

corvette

Congrats! Another record: We now have six punches for the year 2016, and half of them are from breld! Keep up the good work. Also, all six are European brand vehicles.

nyccarguy

Congrats on the MINI punch @breld!

breld

corvette said:

Congrats! Another record: We now have six punches for the year 2016, and half of them are from breld! Keep up the good work. Also, all six are European brand vehicles.

Oh boy - I figured 2-3 for the year. Hopefully I'm simply done early for 2016.

graphicguy

Breld....congrats on the Mini!

ab348

breld said:

corvette said:

Congrats! Another record: We now have six punches for the year 2016, and half of them are from breld! Keep up the good work. Also, all six are European brand vehicles.

Oh boy - I figured 2-3 for the year. Hopefully I'm simply done early for 2016.

Is this Mini an additional set of wheels or did it replace something? I'm confused.

rayainsw

Breld - Congrats on the Mini \ punch!
- Ray
Daughter put many, many miles on a 2007....

stickguy

Ab, if I can keep straight, this is the new toy to replace the ZHP convertible

Michaell

stickguy said:

Ab, if I can keep straight, this is the new toy to replace the ZHP convertible

Exactly right. Mrs. @breld actually didn't like driving the ZHP 'vert.

So, they'll do an 'extended test drive' of the MINI for a while, sell it privately, and move on to something else.

Amirite?

stickguy

Sounds logical to me.j

ab348

stickguy said:

Ab, if I can keep straight, this is the new toy to replace the ZHP convertible

Maybe @breld should publish a program for those of us in the audience. Can't tell the players without a program!