On the mileage side I have no idea where the numbers will fall but what I hear has been decided already is a 5.? L high torque gas engine with or without a HSD option and possibly a diesel option soon afterward. A V6 based on the Tacoma/4R with a HSD also seems like a likely combination. This is where one might get 30 MPG City and 25 highway..
Mr. Shiftright wrote: "snapshot of dashboard---no, that won't convince me of anything except that you are getting the MPG the dash says at the moment you take the picture"
How about miles driven per tank? You're right about dashbord MPG display accuracy- can be off. Take this example taken just before fill up....the display was certainly off, it calculated to just over 68MPG and 932 miles:
I am not inclined to split the difference on MPG.....I don't think there is some Toyota Plot to rig the computer to give better milage...In fact I think it is a little silly to even suggest it.
I get 52 MPG in my 05 Prius (actually my wife does) and that is in mixed city and freeway driving.
I have gone to the site titled Prius owners MPG Real world numbers...Of the 22 posts I found only 4 that were legit to our discussion...some were discussion back and forth a couple were older Prius...One was about a guy in Japan going for records (his is about 88 mpg) and a guy in the U.S. that got 105.9 on a short strip of 22 miles at an avg speed of 35 and using all kinds of techniques to build the MPG...
The 4 MPG figures that I thought applied were 50, 50, 50, 55 ...I get 52 and someone's friend was mentioned who gets 58 MPG ....
"snapshot of dashboard---no, that won't convince me of anything except that you are getting the MPG the dash says at the moment you take the picture. "
No sir. The center dash computer shows the bar graph of MPG, then the MPG and the last number of miles that MPG is calculated for. it's important to look at the number of miles. Like I said, I can, for example, show you my 400h display of 30.5mpg over the last 850+ miles. This means that I maintained 30.5mpg over the last 850miles, may be the distance from Miami to Washington DC (?). This is real proof for all to see.
I'll grant you the argument that statistically my mpg #s are not of the NORM for Hybrid vehicles. But I want to show everyone what is possible.
I was challenging your statement that no driver/owner has shown you a better mpg than the 40s. Here I am. I walk my talk.
My wife was getting 48mpg until I showed her how to: 1. drive with foot not on the brake 2. do the least amount of braking possible and still be safe. 3. look ahead to see if there is a red light, and if so, don't accelerate just to stop at the light like everyone else.
She followed my suggestion and improved it to 52-53mpg. MPG on hybrids is VERY driver and driving style dependent. The normal ICE cars don't make these differences obvious, but the Hybrids do.
Having gotten much better numbers first hand, i just feel that the 41-44mpg is far too ridiculous number to stamp on the Prius. One point to note, though, I did get 48mpg in the early miles of this Prius II, may be <5k miles. This Prius II now have near 30k miles and is well passed the initial period.
Another point is: if my driving style yields 58mpg on the Prius II, why would I use 46mpg to calculate the break-even point for buying a Prius???? I can say that for people who like to pass others just to come to a screeching stop at the red light ahead, it'd be many miles before they break even.
I'm going to go with the longterm road tests from the auto magazines, since they drove long distances both city and highway, and shared many drivers. It's more realistic I think.
They all consistently report 41-44 mpg.
If I see any longterm testing from impartial (non-owner sources) that shows 52 mpg, I'll let you know. So far, 41-44 seems to be about it. I'll keep you posted.
And Finally, here's an article comparing a VW TDI to a Prius, pros and cons, admittedly very pro diesel, reporting diesel MPG of up to 47 mpg longterm.
I saw your note on the diesel, great off the line and thats about it. I suggest that you set yourself down in most current model diesels that burn cleaner than gas, have more torque, power, pickup speed, and durability than other petrol burning vehicles. The technology is so advanced compared to gasoline is is amazing
The good old USA is so far behind the curve in this area it is a shame. As far as using hybrid I do not see any advantages over diesel. At present hybrid is in a negative position with the enviorment because it requires more fuel and/or creates more polution to manufacture than it saves. To say"I am getting away from fossil fuels" is great, however the ground swell in creation of soy based fuel for diesel produced domestically is enormous, which creates in itself create jobs in the USA! Also the mpg numbers meet or exceed hybrid.
So, as you can read I am a diesel fan. And hope that there are more clean diesel powered vehicles brought from europe and I see more press on them, not just all the hype for the hybrid. I any case, if we can slow our growth in petroleum base fuels- hybrid or diesel I am for it!
The infastructure is in place to service diesel vehicles [contact:bosch.usa.com] and to say a lessor car you might take a look at what is really available world wide in diesels an ask "Why not here Mr. Car manufacter?".
..... **Thats where FOX is misleading the public. Agenda?? But believe what you wish. It was said on TV ..... ** .....l..o..l.......
This isn't a Fox thing .. it's a fact thing .....
Lets just go back 3 or 4 years years ... an 02 Chevy Prizm (Corolla) gets 30/35 with an automatic with the air on .. put a 5 speed in it and let Granny Mae drive it and they get almost 40 mpg ... take the average V6 02 Buick Century and they get around 30 mpg, lets baby it and they'll will roll towards 35 mpg .... take a loaded out 01 GLE Altima, this is a vehicle that gets 30 mpg in the dark with a bad driver ..l.o.l... and Mazda has had that darn little Protege' doing 35 mpg for the last 5 years ............ good gas mileage isn't "new" --- it's just being "noticed" ..........
45 mpg (if you're lucky) is great mileage for the guy who drives 25/30,000+ miles a year, but the average guy drives between 12/15k a year ................. what price glory ........?
So this is where Terry hides..... Say...what is my 93 ford with almost 200k worth???(Details available if required!!!) Anyone with their eyes open would have clearly seen that medium or full size cars have been the unseen economy champs of the last several years. You name it... Impala,Century, Lesabre, Taurus,Intrepid etc...are roomy and get about 30mpg on the highway. Why squeeze into a compact to bump along the road for 35? Add to this the cost advantage of a 1 or 2 year old domestic..... For the great many US commuters with mostly freeway miles I cannot see an advantage to hybrid technology. Hybrids shine in stop and go driving,there would be huge benefits for urban areas...less gas and less pollution. The small two seat cars sold in Europe would save people like me gas and money as would modern diesel powerplants...Both are not available in the US. The difference between a 20000 hybrid and a 10000 ICE car buys anyone a boatload of gas.
...alternatives than gasoline powered vehicles. Diesel is better because they can burn almost anything. Hybrids are obviously better because they use less gas. But these are merely band-aids used to cover never healing wounds. Hybrids are a good bridging technology, but they certainly aren't the long term answer. I once thought CNG powered vehicles might also be a good alternate, but considering how the price of natural gas has shot up recently, I think we can forget about that one. I don't think a long term answer will be found until hydrogen power technology is aggressively pursued, and that's never going to happen as long OPEC and big oil is allowed to control all energy resources unchallanged. That said, I also don't understand why the auto industry isn't being more proactive on their own. I can't believe they don't see the marketability of an affordable vehicle that is very inexpensive to operate, and is completely nature friendly. This is something that should've been put in full motion back in '73 when we had our first energy crisis. If it had, APV's probably would've been a reality by now. The entire human race MUST wean itself off of fossil fuels completely and move on to cleaner, more abundant resources or we will all end up living like cavemen once again.
OK so when the long term testing from these same sources tell you about the dependability issues confronting the Jetta, Mercedes and most German cars ...Can we assume that will be your opinion also?
I am not talking about the servicing of these machines...I am talking about the simple ability to buy fuel at a large number of places...In every state, It might be easy to by diesel fuel in your home town but what about a town you have never been to?...
Lets compair the off the line performance with a hybrid vrs a Diesel....I noticed you were careful to confine you comment to Diesel vrs gas...
I am not concerned about what is available world wide but rather what is available in the US...Where I live.
OF All those older cars you mentioned ....Do they get that milage IN TOWN...or just on the Freeway....My Prius gets 50 MPG in town...and on the freeway....My Lexus LS gets 28 mpg on the freeway...but an avg. of only 22 in mixed driving...
My Suburu Legacy gets 30 MPG on the Freeway but only avgerages about 23 MPG in Mixed driving.
I agree with everything you stated above.. in my own Camry's which I driven 45K / yr over the last 6 yrs I consistently average 30-33 mpg day in and day out.. Also as I stated in another response if one were to compare a buying a Certified Used 2 yr old 5 spd Echo at 42 mpg+ vs a new Prius the decison comes down all on the side of the Echo at $9K vs $22K for the new Prius. The Prius will never recover the New Car penalty just by the savings on fuel. No one disputes this.
But this isnt what FOX said. They simply made the statement that purchasing a hybrid would takes years and years to recover the cost differential - unless gas went to $9/gal tomorrow... This is where I stated that the reporting was at best shallow if not false. They didnt compare it to anything... and that is just wrong.
Compare a NEW $22-23K Prius to a NEW Camry or Accord or Altima or Malibu and the Prius will cost LESS initially in 2006. In fact there may be a PENALTY to buy an ICE vehicle next year as compared to a Prius - surprising but true. Thereafter you also save at least $500/yr on gas every year as long as the price doesnt drop to $.50/gal tomorrow ... not to mention doing what's right the rest of us who breathe :shades: .
Beyond all that the 'price differential / recovery from fuel savings' is NOT a major consideration in the decision process of buyers. It really isnt. I see this several times a day in meeting clients. The relevent decision process on deciding on whether to buy a Hybrid or not is more similar to why one buyer will only consider a HUMMER or LS430 or Land Cruiser vs an Aero or used 5 spd Echo. Noone does a 'cost differential recovery' calculation in these cases.
Focusing on gas cost savings is a nitpicking method to trivialize what the real decision is: Does the Prius / HCH / TCH ( '06 ) appeal to me enough to put up my hard earned money over A) keeping what I have; buying a fuel efficient USED vehicle; or even C) buying something even more upscale like a Lexus 400h @ $50K+.
Yep, you can assume that. If I hear the same info from many different professional sources, I certainly pay attention. That's the whole point of being a skeptic and a junior amateur scientist. A scientist has an opinion and is willing to change it once new data comes in. A cynic or a dogmatist will never change their opinion, even in the face of overwhelming evidence.
I have beaten the VW horse on reliability even after it was dead, so you'll find an ally in me regarding VW's troubles.
Ditto the MPG reports from the major mags. I mean, you put 5-6 major testing sources saying 44 mpg and a couple owners claiming 56 mpg, who is more likely to be within the real average for the everyday driver?
However, having said all that, driving is so important to me that I'd certainly buy a car with a mediocre reliability record. Reliability and gas mileage are secondary to me (within reasonable limits of course!) to driving pleasure.
TERRY -- I think we once talked about how any discussion of fuel economy should be in terms of GALLONAGE, not miles per gallon. A person switching from a V-8 pickup truck to a hybrid will experience a massive decrease in GALLONAGE whereas a person switching from grandpa's Corolla to a hybrid will not have a significant decrease in GALLONAGE.
The difference in gallonage between 10 mpg and 44 mpg is a helluva lot compared to that between 34 mpg and 44 mpg.
Gallonage is great because you can grasp the sense of economy without having to calculate fluctuating gas prices...."this car saves me 500 gallons a year".
BOTTGERS -- oh, I like that term you use -- "bridging technology"....excellent!
I'm glad I didn't settle with the mediocre MPG of an Impala,Century, Lesabre, Taurus,Intrepid- or grandpa's Corolla. The other car I considered at the time...a Neon or Jetta. Not bad averages for a 5 passenger car!
Mr. Shiftright, I'm glad that I didn't follow the magazines and diesel enthusiasts advice and buy a regular car, otherwise I'd be plodding along at 35-40MPG! I wonder what the Gallonage is between 35 and 65?
Compare a NEW $22-23K Prius to a NEW Camry or Accord or Altima or Malibu and the Prius will cost LESS initially in 2006.
First I will be surprised if any 2006 Prius becomes available in CA for $23k after the first of the year. Right now the 2005 Prius package #3 in CA has a TMV of $25,102. The package #6 is $29,067. If you think the dealers will let all that tax credit go into the pockets of the buyers, well I will believe when I see it. Then the illusive Tax Credit. I have read amounts from $0 to $3150 for the 2006 Prius.
Even when Poway Toyota had 11 Prii on their lot in June, they were not selling below MSRP. I think after the first of the year you will be lucky to buy a top tier Prius for less than $30k plus TTL.
That makes the Camry XLE with a TMV today of $19,988 a real bargain. That includes the $1000 rebate currently being offered.
For less than $2,000 more out the door you could have a nice, completely restyled fully loaded hybrid car. (Less the Nav system...Most people already know their commute) Attach the tax credits and fuel savings among other benefits you could have a real winner.
But that's just you and how/where you drive. That's not what we are talking about. We are talking about the 99.999999% of other people and what mileage they might get. The magazines suggest most of 'em will get 45 mpg.
If someone bought a hybrid based on your data, they might in fact end up disappointed, don't you think, because they don't drive like you or do your commute?
If you are saying that you are right and all the other mags are wrong, I'm gonna have to raise my eyebrows here
15K for a new Civic - base model, no options.(give or take) 21K for a Pruis - base model, no options.(give or take)
There's about 6K in difference. Let's be super-generous to the Pruis and say it gets 15 mpg better than the Civic.(35/50) Even with that disparity and $3 a gallon for gas, you'd need 42.5% more gas to compensate. Or, $4.27 5/10 for gas compared to a Prius. That works out to an extra $2.55 every 100 miles. That's 255,000 miles to break even. Add in $3K for a replacement battery pack at 200K(being super-generous here as well) and it's $9K more and 380K miles till you end up actually saving money.(with a second replacement pack due soon for another 3K)
A TDI is about 18K, so it would take half as much, but the difference, even if it were 10mpg less than the Pruis, would be 175K miles to break even.
A Honda Fit, at 45mpg(1.3 engine if they bring it over) and 14K, though - you'd never end up ahead with hybrid technology. 5mpg less and 2/3 the cost. - that calculates out to 1.115 times more fuel every 50 miles, or about 67 cents per hundred. A bit over a million milkes to break even, not counting batteries - just base price.
I think you can get the 2005 HCH in CA for under MSRP. That makes it a better deal for those that are interested in purely high mileage. The 2006 even with the tax credit may end up costing a lot more than the 2005 HCH. I guess we will know soon. The HCH would be on my list as a commuter car.
Well if you switched to a hybrid from a 15 mpg minivan, say, you'd notice the "short term" benefits at the first or second fill-up. It would feel pretty good to be spending $22 instead of $60 every time you fill up. Bam! Instant good feedback.
Most people don't think "longterm". I don't even think we are genetically/biologically wired to think like that. At least not with abstracts like money. Maybe we're better with solid stuff, like houses and wives (no offense intended).
Mr. Shiftright we have agreement that most people get about 45MPG, driving just as they usually do.
What I'm talking about are these cars capabilities, if driven with a little care. It is not difficult for the average Joe to see low-mid 50's. Even with wasteful cruise control I get around 53-55MPG locked in on the freeway at 60MPH.
Have anyone noticed that more people are changing their driving habits, especially since gas has reached $3.00? I've noticed. How many MPG's are increased given some basic driving skills in....say a Corolla or regular Civic? I'd guess 5-7. Do you think people would buy a car that given the same change in habits deliver a substantially greater return for the effort? I do.
Given the trend of fuel cost increases over the past 2 years we could see prices $5-6 in a few short years. I would expect more people would be looking for these high MPG capable cars and not mind a few driving adjustments.
Plekto: I've always wondered how people can compare a no-frills all manual econo box against a nicely loaded, or in the HCH case a fully loaded vehicle. If someone's in the market for a nicely equipped automobile, they're not looking for econo boxes. Same is true for someone who is not willing/able to spend more for a nicer car. (This also goes for your Honda Fit example)
If someone is in the market for the highest dollar-for-mile zero frills economy car you don't have to spend $15,000 (Or $18,000 on a VW).
Will you come out ahead spending under $10,000 for a reasonably reliable Echo which is listed as almost 40MPG, or a statistically troubled VW diesel for $18,000 with scant fuel savings over the other? How about a nice Chev Avero under $9,500 and 34MPG?
Long term- When I bought my HCH indeed I had long term in mind...and paid off the difference compared to a similarly loaded EX in only a few months. (Tax credit and fuel savings)
The fact still stands that if I'd have listened to 99% of the magazine reviews and diesel enthusiasts I'd still be plodding along at 35-40MPG in a Neon or Jetta ...but probably substantially less because I wouldn't have learned the skills neccessary for great economy, which my car has taught me.
I don't. I'm getting my 06 Prius (loaded sans leather) for $500 under MSRP. Has more content than any competitor has to offer. Oh...and it easily gets 50 mpg. Can't wait... I am starting to count the days!!!
Hydrogen has HUGE problems, often overlooked in the mainstream media. I'm by no means an expert, but I have looked into it a bit. Among the problems: 1. Where does the hydrogen come from? It's the most abundant element, but it's bound up with other elements, and takes energy to separate it. 2. How do you transport it? Hydrogen is the smallest element, and is very difficult to avoid leakage. It also is very volatile, and deteriorates many metals, making them brittle and prone to more leakage, failure, etc. 3. How do you store it? It must be compressed and/or cooled to get any reasonable range. This is not possible without enormous cost, weight, space penalties. I'm sure I'm missing something (many things?) but you get the point. Hydrogen seems to be one of those things that are better in theory than in practice. Biodiesel at this point seems to me to be the best bet to meet our future energy needs, at least as far as transportation is concerned There, there's your reply
I have not driven in Atlanta since the 1970s. I know in So. CA you would be treated with less than friendly behaviour. You cannot drive 60 MPH on most of the freeways without getting run off the road. You would be a major cause of Road Rage. At 70 MPH I stick to the right lane. Even the middle lanes are pushing 75 MPH most of the day. As most of the hybrids are in CA, that could account for the lower averages.
I didn't realize California had freeways that could sustain continued 75mph speeds without traffic. Isn't the speed limit there 65? Around here everyone goes with the flow. The few hybrids I see are usually in the right lane.
Misterme: I chose vehicles that were comparable to a Pruis in size and useability. Of course you could get a $9995 Aveo if you wanted to - just most of us don't.
The Honda Fit is unique, though, since it gets high mileage and is based off of the Insight's platform(just with 4 doors and a hatchback). It has the same overall size, HP to weight ratio, and features as a Mini. It's really a nice alternative to the hybrid prices and tin-can econoboxes.
As for the speed - it only takes about 35-40HP to maintain 70-75MPH on level ground. Cars theses days have gobs of leftover power.
As a matter of fact it is. Some Interstate freeways are 70 MPH and a few are 75 MPH. that has little relevance to the speed on the freeways. The only vehicles you will see going slow are real beaters that cannot keep up. The real problem with plugging along at 65 MPH in the right lane is invariably someone cuts you off to make the off ramp. Driving the freeways in So Ca. is synchronized chaos. Not for the weak of heart. About once a year the Highway Patrol announces they are going to ticket anyone going over the speed limit. It is zero tolerance for a couple days on each freeway. They have it announced on radio & TV. Probably to satisfy the Feds.
Interesting information for when I'm out there next. Thanks for the heads up. I feel the safest way to drive is WITH the flow. I am in Southern Florida once a month for a few days and everyone is driving at least 80-85 on the highways. I enjoy driving fast. I have found that driving 80-85 in a Prius is NO problem at all.
But don't you think if alternative energy sources would've been aggressively pursued beginning in '73, by now we'd have something better, cleaner, and more abundant than we have now?
So ...would the person who actually Does the research (ie own the car) be the Scientist doing his expirments and processing the data or would he be the dogmatist/cynic??
I would say the person doing the actually driving in everyday life for months or years is more likely to be within the real avg....BECAUSE HE IS THE EVERYDAY DRIVER.
If driving is that important to you why tout a piece of junk like a vw when there are so many quality machines at or below the same price...Miata for Example Mustang for another.
OK my Suburu which is now replaced by my Prius and goes to the same places driven 15,000 miles per yr. uses 652 Gallons of Gas, My Prius driven the same number of miles uses 288 gallons per yr. Happy
The only think I am certain of is the person buying that desel and looking for fuel in California is going to be disappointed if it is not easily found....
That same person bringing the VW into the dealer for ANOTHER round of repairs is going to be hopping mad....
That person stuck in traffic and gettin only 18 mpg or less on his daily commute in a stripped down car..... without the nice sound system and great air filtration system (lord only knows the gallonage) is going to be a little envious of that Prius guy running on the battery in stop and go traffic and
He will want to talk to YOU about all that time spend touting the VW...and why of why did he believe you.
Finally in all that traffic ...that VW guy is not going to be all that much fun driving...I dare say perhaps he will be having even less fun then the Prius guy is having with all the pretty environmentally concious girls waving at him and blowing him kisses, While he mentally adds up all the money he is saving.....
Most wifes will not agree to our OWNERSHIP and for most of us the Bank owns the house....That $22 tank of gas, in a Prius, will last longer then some marriages
Before you buy...Call or get on line with the COSCO buying service...they told my wife they could get our loaded Prius for 3000 under msrp...Unfortunately that was After we had bought the car...It is worth a try.
Thanks for the advice. I already have my car on order with a dealer my family has been buying from for 20 yrs. I am getting the car for UNDER MSPR. There is no way COSTCO can assist buyers with this car. It's just too hot.
If driving is that important to you why tout a piece of junk like a vw when there are so many quality machines at or below the same price
Sounds like you have had a bad experience with a VW. If not you should try one sometime. We have a Passat TDI that I have a hard time getting my wife out of the drivers seat. Her other car is an LS400 that she also likes. The Lexus does not handle as well as the VW. The VW diesel is a fun car to take on windy roads through the mountains. Nothing is fun in stop and go traffic. I would do anything to avoid driving under those conditions. I hope you were not comparing the handling of the Prius to a VW. It will never handle as well. It will get better mileage in town. If that is your need then you bought a good car.
PS We would have bought a new LS430 except the service after warranty is atrocious.
Prius guy is having with all the pretty environmentally concious girls waving at him and blowing him kisses
If driving is that important to you why tout a piece of junk like a vw when there are so many quality machines at or below the same price
Wow am out of date! I always thought a Porsche and not a Prius was the car to buy when you have a mid-life crisis or are socially desperate enough to seek a blowing kiss!!
About 30 to 50% of what a Porsche is made out of originates from VW! That is the kind of junk I would love to own without caring about the thousands of blowing kisses that I pass by! (especially since I will be driving too fast to notice them):P
You are right about vehicles being a fashion statement. They all are statements to one extent or another. Its why one person will buy a Lexus vs another's Cadillac vs another's used Civic vs another's Hummer. In the case of the Prius forget the idea that the decision is being made soley on the elusive fuel savings. This is WAY down the list of reasons to buy a Hybrid.
In the case of the Prius it has been directed to the 'early adopters', the environmentally concerned plus in the Gen 2 model the gadget buyers. The price is of little significance, seriously.
Toyota does a remarkable job of Marketing and determining what the correct price level should be on its vehicles. 75% of all Prius buyers want the fully loaded version and ask what else can be added!!! Leather? XM? etc. This discussion on gas saving differential is a non issue.
Mr Mattox here has stated that he bought his Prius for the comfort, features and value he got over any other midsized vehicle because there is NO OTHER midsized vehicle with all these features at anywhere near the price of a Prius. Think how smart the Marketing Dept was to place the highest volume Prius where it had NO COMPETITION. How often does that happen?
That's really it.......it's my political statement on wheels.
Being a part of the solution feels really great!
Just bought my 2005 2nd hand w/2600 miles on it---looking for excuses to drive more!!........found myself jumping in my car at ten o'clock at night to mail a letter at the post office! Seemed like a good enough reason, huh?!? ;-}
> In the case of the Prius it has been directed to the 'early adopters'
In other words, Prius is marketed to people that are tired of the same old 20th Century crap. Size & Power are no longer the highest priorities. In fact, the rank of that appeal is dropping quickly based on the sales slump early this year, before the gas prices even started to rise. Then the employee discounts pretty much nailed that coffin shut. People what more from their vehicle now.
Of course, this spring when HSD becomes available in Camry, that argument will reveal itself as meaningless anyway.
Of course, this spring when HSD becomes available in Camry, that argument will reveal itself as meaningless anyway.
Spot on, John.
Stage 3 of Toyota's strategy. Aim at the heart of the US market, Camry owners. Hybrids are relatively well known and well proven now. Now go after the Millions of current satisfied Camry owners and make the HSD commonplace.
My guess is that the TCH will not be a gadget car or have unique styling it will just be another in a long line of basic reliable 200K vehicles that btw will avg in the high 30's mpg and have the same environmental benefit as the Prius.
LS service is fine after warrenty....It is just Expensive...But then it is much better then you will get from It's competition...
So you are saying the VW is a handling monster in stop and go traffic...Hmmm In stop and go traffic the Prius handles just as well as any car.
I don't know why you threw Lexus in here we are talking about Prius and the VW and other cars Like Mustang and Miata ...No one argues that the Prius is as much a drivers car as the VW....But the Miata and Mustang are better Drivers cars, More reliable and cost less.
It is true I don't need a car that goes real fast on twisty mountain roads...Perhaps you do.
Porsche or Rolls would be even better then Prius in the Pretty Rich girls waiving and throwing Kisses dept....But then Most can affort a Prius and the women these days are really into that ecology stuff Poor girls are pretty to.
Are you really saying the Porsche is no better then a VW...
Comments
Interesting discussions to follow..LOL
kdhspyder
"snapshot of dashboard---no, that won't convince me of anything except that you are getting the MPG the dash says at the moment you take the picture"
How about miles driven per tank?
You're right about dashbord MPG display accuracy- can be off.
Take this example taken just before fill up....the display was certainly off, it calculated to just over 68MPG and 932 miles:
http://home.alltel.net/stevedez_00/gas.jpg
I get 52 MPG in my 05 Prius (actually my wife does) and that is in mixed city and freeway driving.
I have gone to the site titled Prius owners MPG Real world numbers...Of the 22 posts I found only 4 that were legit to our discussion...some were discussion back and forth a couple were older Prius...One was about a guy in Japan going for records (his is about 88 mpg) and a guy in the U.S. that got 105.9 on a short strip of 22 miles at an avg speed of 35 and using all kinds of techniques to build the MPG...
The 4 MPG figures that I thought applied were 50, 50, 50, 55 ...I get 52 and someone's friend was mentioned who gets 58 MPG ....
No sir. The center dash computer shows the bar graph of MPG, then the MPG and the last number of miles that MPG is calculated for. it's important to look at the number of miles. Like I said, I can, for example, show you my 400h display of 30.5mpg over the last 850+ miles. This means that I maintained 30.5mpg over the last 850miles, may be the distance from Miami to Washington DC (?). This is real proof for all to see.
I'll grant you the argument that statistically my mpg #s are not of the NORM for Hybrid vehicles. But I want to show everyone what is possible.
I was challenging your statement that no driver/owner has shown you a better mpg than the 40s. Here I am. I walk my talk.
My wife was getting 48mpg until I showed her how to:
1. drive with foot not on the brake
2. do the least amount of braking possible and still be safe.
3. look ahead to see if there is a red light, and if so, don't accelerate just to stop at the light like everyone else.
She followed my suggestion and improved it to 52-53mpg. MPG on hybrids is VERY driver and driving style dependent. The normal ICE cars don't make these differences obvious, but the Hybrids do.
Having gotten much better numbers first hand, i just feel that the 41-44mpg is far too ridiculous number to stamp on the Prius. One point to note, though, I did get 48mpg in the early miles of this Prius II, may be <5k miles. This Prius II now have near 30k miles and is well passed the initial period.
Another point is: if my driving style yields 58mpg on the Prius II, why would I use 46mpg to calculate the break-even point for buying a Prius???? I can say that for people who like to pass others just to come to a screeching stop at the red light ahead, it'd be many miles before they break even.
They all consistently report 41-44 mpg.
If I see any longterm testing from impartial (non-owner sources) that shows 52 mpg, I'll let you know. So far, 41-44 seems to be about it. I'll keep you posted.
Here's the Edmunds gas mileage results: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=101393/pageId=60147
Motor Trend: http://motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/112_0505_lt_prius/
Road & Track: http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=2172&page_number=2
Motor Week: http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/longterm/prius04.shtml
And Finally, here's an article comparing a VW TDI to a Prius, pros and cons, admittedly very pro diesel, reporting diesel MPG of up to 47 mpg longterm.
http://www.transmitmedia.com/golfTDI/
The good old USA is so far behind the curve in this area it is a shame. As far as using hybrid I do not see any advantages over diesel. At present hybrid is in a negative position with the enviorment because it requires more fuel and/or creates more polution to manufacture than it saves. To say"I am getting away from fossil fuels" is great, however the ground swell in creation of soy based fuel for diesel produced domestically is enormous, which creates in itself create jobs in the USA! Also the mpg numbers meet or exceed hybrid.
So, as you can read I am a diesel fan. And hope that there are more clean diesel powered vehicles brought from europe and I see more press on them, not just all the hype for the hybrid. I any case, if we can slow our growth in petroleum base fuels- hybrid or diesel I am for it!
But believe what you wish. It was said on TV ..... ** .....l..o..l.......
This isn't a Fox thing .. it's a fact thing .....
Lets just go back 3 or 4 years years ... an 02 Chevy Prizm (Corolla) gets 30/35 with an automatic with the air on .. put a 5 speed in it and let Granny Mae drive it and they get almost 40 mpg ... take the average V6 02 Buick Century and they get around 30 mpg, lets baby it and they'll will roll towards 35 mpg .... take a loaded out 01 GLE Altima, this is a vehicle that gets 30 mpg in the dark with a bad driver ..l.o.l... and Mazda has had that darn little Protege' doing 35 mpg for the last 5 years ............ good gas mileage isn't "new" --- it's just being "noticed" ..........
45 mpg (if you're lucky) is great mileage for the guy who drives 25/30,000+ miles a year, but the average guy drives between 12/15k a year ................. what price glory ........?
Terry
Say...what is my 93 ford with almost 200k worth???(Details available if required!!!)
Anyone with their eyes open would have clearly seen that medium or full size cars have been the unseen economy champs of the last several years. You name it... Impala,Century, Lesabre, Taurus,Intrepid etc...are roomy and get about 30mpg on the highway. Why squeeze into a compact to bump along the road for 35? Add to this the cost advantage of a 1 or 2 year old domestic.....
For the great many US commuters with mostly freeway miles I cannot see an advantage to hybrid technology. Hybrids shine in stop and go driving,there would be huge benefits for urban areas...less gas and less pollution.
The small two seat cars sold in Europe would save people like me gas and money as would modern diesel powerplants...Both are not available in the US.
The difference between a 20000 hybrid and a 10000 ICE car buys anyone a boatload of gas.
Lets compair the off the line performance with a hybrid vrs a Diesel....I noticed you were careful to confine you comment to Diesel vrs gas...
I am not concerned about what is available world wide but rather what is available in the US...Where I live.
My Suburu Legacy gets 30 MPG on the Freeway but only avgerages about 23 MPG in Mixed driving.
But this isnt what FOX said. They simply made the statement that purchasing a hybrid would takes years and years to recover the cost differential - unless gas went to $9/gal tomorrow... This is where I stated that the reporting was at best shallow if not false. They didnt compare it to anything... and that is just wrong.
Compare a NEW $22-23K Prius to a NEW Camry or Accord or Altima or Malibu and the Prius will cost LESS initially in 2006. In fact there may be a PENALTY to buy an ICE vehicle next year as compared to a Prius - surprising but true. Thereafter you also save at least $500/yr on gas every year as long as the price doesnt drop to $.50/gal tomorrow
Beyond all that the 'price differential / recovery from fuel savings' is NOT a major consideration in the decision process of buyers. It really isnt. I see this several times a day in meeting clients. The relevent decision process on deciding on whether to buy a Hybrid or not is more similar to why one buyer will only consider a HUMMER or LS430 or Land Cruiser vs an Aero or used 5 spd Echo. Noone does a 'cost differential recovery' calculation in these cases.
Focusing on gas cost savings is a nitpicking method to trivialize what the real decision is: Does the Prius / HCH / TCH ( '06 ) appeal to me enough to put up my hard earned money over A) keeping what I have;
As in all things YMMV. and FOX was sloppy.
kdhspyder
I have beaten the VW horse on reliability even after it was dead, so you'll find an ally in me regarding VW's troubles.
Ditto the MPG reports from the major mags. I mean, you put 5-6 major testing sources saying 44 mpg and a couple owners claiming 56 mpg, who is more likely to be within the real average for the everyday driver?
However, having said all that, driving is so important to me that I'd certainly buy a car with a mediocre reliability record. Reliability and gas mileage are secondary to me (within reasonable limits of course!) to driving pleasure.
TERRY -- I think we once talked about how any discussion of fuel economy should be in terms of GALLONAGE, not miles per gallon. A person switching from a V-8 pickup truck to a hybrid will experience a massive decrease in GALLONAGE whereas a person switching from grandpa's Corolla to a hybrid will not have a significant decrease in GALLONAGE.
The difference in gallonage between 10 mpg and 44 mpg is a helluva lot compared to that between 34 mpg and 44 mpg.
Gallonage is great because you can grasp the sense of economy without having to calculate fluctuating gas prices...."this car saves me 500 gallons a year".
BOTTGERS -- oh, I like that term you use -- "bridging technology"....excellent!
Tank average:
http://home.alltel.net/stevedez_00/gas.jpg
Trip to work:
http://home.alltel.net/stevedez_00/gas2.jpg
Back home again:
http://home.alltel.net/stevedez_00/gas3.jpg
I'm glad I didn't settle with the mediocre MPG of an Impala,Century, Lesabre, Taurus,Intrepid- or grandpa's Corolla. The other car I considered at the time...a Neon or Jetta.
Not bad averages for a 5 passenger car!
Mr. Shiftright, I'm glad that I didn't follow the magazines and diesel enthusiasts advice and buy a regular car, otherwise I'd be plodding along at 35-40MPG!
I wonder what the Gallonage is between 35 and 65?
First I will be surprised if any 2006 Prius becomes available in CA for $23k after the first of the year. Right now the 2005 Prius package #3 in CA has a TMV of $25,102. The package #6 is $29,067. If you think the dealers will let all that tax credit go into the pockets of the buyers, well I will believe when I see it. Then the illusive Tax Credit. I have read amounts from $0 to $3150 for the 2006 Prius.
Even when Poway Toyota had 11 Prii on their lot in June, they were not selling below MSRP. I think after the first of the year you will be lucky to buy a top tier Prius for less than $30k plus TTL.
That makes the Camry XLE with a TMV today of $19,988 a real bargain. That includes the $1000 rebate currently being offered.
Attach the tax credits and fuel savings among other benefits you could have a real winner.
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-06-2005/00041631- - - - 65&EDATE=
If someone bought a hybrid based on your data, they might in fact end up disappointed, don't you think, because they don't drive like you or do your commute?
If you are saying that you are right and all the other mags are wrong, I'm gonna have to raise my eyebrows here
21K for a Pruis - base model, no options.(give or take)
There's about 6K in difference. Let's be super-generous to the Pruis and say it gets 15 mpg better than the Civic.(35/50) Even with that disparity and $3 a gallon for gas, you'd need 42.5% more gas to compensate. Or, $4.27 5/10 for gas compared to a Prius. That works out to an extra $2.55 every 100 miles.
That's 255,000 miles to break even. Add in $3K for a replacement battery pack at 200K(being super-generous here as well) and it's $9K more and 380K miles till you end up actually saving money.(with a second replacement pack due soon for another 3K)
A TDI is about 18K, so it would take half as much, but the difference, even if it were 10mpg less than the Pruis, would be 175K miles to break even.
A Honda Fit, at 45mpg(1.3 engine if they bring it over) and 14K, though - you'd never end up ahead with hybrid technology. 5mpg less and 2/3 the cost. - that calculates out to 1.115 times more fuel every 50 miles, or about 67 cents per hundred. A bit over a million milkes to break even, not counting batteries - just base price.
Guess what car I want to buy?
Most people don't think "longterm". I don't even think we are genetically/biologically wired to think like that. At least not with abstracts like money. Maybe we're better with solid stuff, like houses and wives (no offense intended).
What I'm talking about are these cars capabilities, if driven with a little care.
It is not difficult for the average Joe to see low-mid 50's. Even with wasteful cruise control I get around 53-55MPG locked in on the freeway at 60MPH.
Have anyone noticed that more people are changing their driving habits, especially since gas has reached $3.00? I've noticed.
How many MPG's are increased given some basic driving skills in....say a Corolla or regular Civic? I'd guess 5-7.
Do you think people would buy a car that given the same change in habits deliver a substantially greater return for the effort? I do.
Given the trend of fuel cost increases over the past 2 years we could see prices $5-6 in a few short years. I would expect more people would be looking for these high MPG capable cars and not mind a few driving adjustments.
Plekto:
I've always wondered how people can compare a no-frills all manual econo box against a nicely loaded, or in the HCH case a fully loaded vehicle.
If someone's in the market for a nicely equipped automobile, they're not looking for econo boxes.
Same is true for someone who is not willing/able to spend more for a nicer car.
(This also goes for your Honda Fit example)
If someone is in the market for the highest dollar-for-mile zero frills economy car you don't have to spend $15,000 (Or $18,000 on a VW).
There are several here for about $10,000 and some even below that:
http://www.edmunds.com/new/pricerange/under15k/sedan/index.html?typeindex=T&tid=edmunds.n.- - - typeindex.content.num1.0.*
Will you come out ahead spending under $10,000 for a reasonably reliable Echo which is listed as almost 40MPG, or a statistically troubled VW diesel for $18,000 with scant fuel savings over the other?
How about a nice Chev Avero under $9,500 and 34MPG?
Long term-
When I bought my HCH indeed I had long term in mind...and paid off the difference compared to a similarly loaded EX in only a few months. (Tax credit and fuel savings)
The fact still stands that if I'd have listened to 99% of the magazine reviews and diesel enthusiasts I'd still be plodding along at 35-40MPG in a Neon or Jetta ...but probably substantially less because I wouldn't have learned the skills neccessary for great economy, which my car has taught me.
1. Where does the hydrogen come from? It's the most abundant element, but it's bound up with other elements, and takes energy to separate it.
2. How do you transport it? Hydrogen is the smallest element, and is very difficult to avoid leakage. It also is very volatile, and deteriorates many metals, making them brittle and prone to more leakage, failure, etc.
3. How do you store it? It must be compressed and/or cooled to get any reasonable range. This is not possible without enormous cost, weight, space penalties.
I'm sure I'm missing something (many things?) but you get the point. Hydrogen seems to be one of those things that are better in theory than in practice.
Biodiesel at this point seems to me to be the best bet to meet our future energy needs, at least as far as transportation is concerned
There, there's your reply
I have not driven in Atlanta since the 1970s. I know in So. CA you would be treated with less than friendly behaviour. You cannot drive 60 MPH on most of the freeways without getting run off the road. You would be a major cause of Road Rage. At 70 MPH I stick to the right lane. Even the middle lanes are pushing 75 MPH most of the day. As most of the hybrids are in CA, that could account for the lower averages.
The Honda Fit is unique, though, since it gets high mileage and is based off of the Insight's platform(just with 4 doors and a hatchback). It has the same overall size, HP to weight ratio, and features as a Mini. It's really a nice alternative to the hybrid prices and tin-can econoboxes.
As for the speed - it only takes about 35-40HP to maintain 70-75MPH on level ground. Cars theses days have gobs of leftover power.
As a matter of fact it is. Some Interstate freeways are 70 MPH and a few are 75 MPH. that has little relevance to the speed on the freeways. The only vehicles you will see going slow are real beaters that cannot keep up. The real problem with plugging along at 65 MPH in the right lane is invariably someone cuts you off to make the off ramp. Driving the freeways in So Ca. is synchronized chaos. Not for the weak of heart. About once a year the Highway Patrol announces they are going to ticket anyone going over the speed limit. It is zero tolerance for a couple days on each freeway. They have it announced on radio & TV. Probably to satisfy the Feds.
I would say the person doing the actually driving in everyday life for months or years is more likely to be within the real avg....BECAUSE HE IS THE EVERYDAY DRIVER.
If driving is that important to you why tout a piece of junk like a vw when there are so many quality machines at or below the same price...Miata for Example Mustang for another.
OK my Suburu which is now replaced by my Prius and goes to the same places driven 15,000 miles per yr. uses 652 Gallons of Gas, My Prius driven the same number of miles uses 288 gallons per yr. Happy
That same person bringing the VW into the dealer for ANOTHER round of repairs is going to be hopping mad....
That person stuck in traffic and gettin only 18 mpg or less on his daily commute in a stripped down car..... without the nice sound system and great air filtration system (lord only knows the gallonage) is going to be a little envious of that Prius guy running on the battery in stop and go traffic and
He will want to talk to YOU about all that time spend touting the VW...and why of why did he believe you.
Finally in all that traffic ...that VW guy is not going to be all that much fun driving...I dare say perhaps he will be having even less fun then the Prius guy is having with all the pretty environmentally concious girls waving at him and blowing him kisses, While he mentally adds up all the money he is saving.....
Sounds like you have had a bad experience with a VW. If not you should try one sometime. We have a Passat TDI that I have a hard time getting my wife out of the drivers seat. Her other car is an LS400 that she also likes. The Lexus does not handle as well as the VW. The VW diesel is a fun car to take on windy roads through the mountains. Nothing is fun in stop and go traffic. I would do anything to avoid driving under those conditions. I hope you were not comparing the handling of the Prius to a VW. It will never handle as well. It will get better mileage in town. If that is your need then you bought a good car.
PS
We would have bought a new LS430 except the service after warranty is atrocious.
If driving is that important to you why tout a piece of junk like a vw when there are so many quality machines at or below the same price
Wow am out of date! I always thought a Porsche and not a Prius was the car to buy when you have a mid-life crisis or are socially desperate enough to seek a blowing kiss!!
About 30 to 50% of what a Porsche is made out of originates from VW! That is the kind of junk I would love to own without caring about the thousands of blowing kisses that I pass by! (especially since I will be driving too fast to notice them):P
Good luck with your green blown kisses!
Lambroughinis which are made 100% by VWs
Bentlys which are made 100% by VWs
If money was no object it would be kind of fun to own the above VW cars!
Unfortunately I myself cannot afford the maintenance of the above cars
In the case of the Prius it has been directed to the 'early adopters', the environmentally concerned plus in the Gen 2 model the gadget buyers. The price is of little significance, seriously.
Toyota does a remarkable job of Marketing and determining what the correct price level should be on its vehicles. 75% of all Prius buyers want the fully loaded version and ask what else can be added!!! Leather? XM? etc. This discussion on gas saving differential is a non issue.
Mr Mattox here has stated that he bought his Prius for the comfort, features and value he got over any other midsized vehicle because there is NO OTHER midsized vehicle with all these features at anywhere near the price of a Prius. Think how smart the Marketing Dept was to place the highest volume Prius where it had NO COMPETITION. How often does that happen?
kdhspyder
Being a part of the solution feels really great!
Just bought my 2005 2nd hand w/2600 miles on it---looking for excuses to drive more!!........found myself jumping in my car at ten o'clock at night to mail a letter at the post office! Seemed like a good enough reason, huh?!? ;-}
In other words, Prius is marketed to people that are tired of the same old 20th Century crap. Size & Power are no longer the highest priorities. In fact, the rank of that appeal is dropping quickly based on the sales slump early this year, before the gas prices even started to rise. Then the employee discounts pretty much nailed that coffin shut. People what more from their vehicle now.
Of course, this spring when HSD becomes available in Camry, that argument will reveal itself as meaningless anyway.
JOHN
Spot on, John.
Stage 3 of Toyota's strategy. Aim at the heart of the US market, Camry owners.
Hybrids are relatively well known and well proven now. Now go after the Millions of current satisfied Camry owners and make the HSD commonplace.
My guess is that the TCH will not be a gadget car or have unique styling it will just be another in a long line of basic reliable 200K vehicles that btw will avg in the high 30's mpg and have the same environmental benefit as the Prius.
kdhspyder
So you are saying the VW is a handling monster in stop and go traffic...Hmmm In stop and go traffic the Prius handles just as well as any car.
I don't know why you threw Lexus in here we are talking about Prius and the VW and other cars Like Mustang and Miata ...No one argues that the Prius is as much a drivers car as the VW....But the Miata and Mustang are better Drivers cars, More reliable and cost less.
It is true I don't need a car that goes real fast on twisty mountain roads...Perhaps you do.
Are you really saying the Porsche is no better then a VW...