as Accord/Camry. It is in between Civic/Corolla and Accord/Camry. Actually, the 2006 Civic is pretty close in size. If the CAmry and Prius were the same size, why would there be a need for a Camry hybrid?
Also, a Mazda 3 5dr can be had with many of the option the Prius has. No stability control or smart key system, but $21k instead of 27k. And it drives so much better.
Mr. Mattox never said anything like the following:
"Mr Mattox here has stated that he bought his Prius for the comfort, features and value he got over any other midsized vehicle because there is NO OTHER midsized vehicle with all these features at anywhere near the price of a Prius. Think how smart the Marketing Dept was to place the highest volume Prius where it had NO COMPETITION. How often does that happen?"
Mr. Mattox owns an LS430 (ULTRA) that he loves and the Prius is not nearly as comfortable...that is my wife's car.
I suspect no car buying decision is made solely for the Fuel economy.... The reasons my wife bought the car in order are these.
1) Ecology.... 2) Fuel savings...and we bought before the big increase in gas prices 3) Her sister own's an older Prius and loves it...the 05 is bigger and more suited to our families needs... 4) The car is just the right size for her...the hatch back is great for shopping...the rear seats comfortably seats 2 adults... 5) Features like VSC...ABS...Heated outside mirrors...NAVAGATION SYSTEM..(Our family will never buy another car without a nav. system) The really nice sound system..and generally the over all utility of the car... 6) Price was less then the Honda..Hybred (The Accord not the civic which was too small) the bigger Honda also got poorer gas milage.
I did not find another Hybrid with the combination of factors listed above...
I have asked if you are anyone on the board can find another mid size Hybrid in the this price range with these features and room or any midsized getting milage in the 40s to 50s with these features at this price ....
Finally I will note for the record that while the new Diesel may get comperable milage on the freeway...it is the city driving the stop and go driving that seperates the Hybrids from the others...they get 50 plus in that kind of driving.
1. I could put an 8-ft ladder inside. Try that with a VW. 2. I could put a 6.5HP lawn mower inside (wrap the handle forward), to mow grass on my other property.
Actually that's a classic argument in science, but generally no, the owner would be not be considered impartial and disinterested in the results, whereas the scientist should/would be totally disinterested in how the results turn out. I tend to agree that a partial or biased person (the owner of the car, or the father of the shoplifter, or the relative of the abandoned bride, or the owner of the house---WHATEVER---cannot often accurately produce consistently unbiased results.
For instance, the whole global appraisal business is based on hiring an impartial party, so as to avoid this very thing.
ABS/SAB/SAC Package: Anti-lock Brake System (ABS) with Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD) Dual front seat-mounted side-impact air bags Side-impact front and rear air curtains
Is electric AC any better than mechanical AC? Do you mean automatic climate control? 2006 Grand Touring trim has that.
CVT, seriously? That's a benefit? I prefer manual transmissions, but CVT's are marginally better than automatics to the average driver.
Mazda3 also offers things the Prius can not. Leather seats, moonroof, manual tranny, 17" wheels, tire pressure monitoring.
Its a matter of Marketing. Simple but effective. The Prius is different in shape, style and features. It has always been directed to a specific market segment;i.e. technophiles, early adopters and the environmentally concerned. But this segment is limited. The Camry is mass market in the extreme to the point of being boring to many.
Now that the HSD is well accepted, stage 3 of the Marketing strategy is go for the heart of the US market - the millions of current/potential Camry owners. I doubt that the Camry buyer will want all the gadgets that the Prius has but a SULEV with avg mpgs in the mid 30's vs mid 20's will appeal to a lot of current Camry owners.
So next year Toyota will have 2 midsized Hybrids each attracting different segments. If the President of Toyota is correct you will see trucks next, then minivans ( already exist in Japan ), the Corolla at some point, then every vehicle will have a Hybrid option.
I don't know why you threw Lexus in here we are talking about Prius and the VW
I included our Lexus, as you are better able to relate to the handling of the Lexus. The VW Passat is superior in handling to the LS400. It is not as comfortable or quiet. Life is full of compromises. If someone builds the perfect vehicle I will get in line to buy one. So far for me the PU truck comes the closest. The Prius is loaded with gadgets and lacks decent handling. I like to take drives in the back country on windy roads. The Passat is much better designed for that kind of driving. I refuse to go on the freeways during peak traffic hours. I don't want to add to the mess out there. It has been years since I was in stop n go traffic. That eliminates the one big plus on the Prius side of the ledger.
8 foot ladder in the Prius. What happens when you have an emergency stop? Bet it leaves a dent in your dash.
Don't forget the mileage difference. You'd be lucky to average high 20's at 75-80 in a Mazda 3. I can easily get 45 going that speed. Twice the mileage. Also the backseat in the Mazda 3 is SMALL. Electric AC is so cool!!! You can ide in traffic without the engine running. The Mazda 3 IS a great car though. You have a wonderful chassis and it can be nearly equipped like a Prius. Only thing missing is the smart key and a few other goodies. MSRP for a nearly loaded Mazda 3 is 22k. I imagine you can get it for 21.2 or something like that. Let's say the Prius is 24k after the tax credit. Now the gap has even come closer. In gas savings that gap can be made up in 3 yrs (assuming 15k driven a year). The Mazda 3 would be in my garage if it had stability control and got high 30's on the highway.
Actually, the VW TDI engine is the only reliable one they sell. It has a known problem with the MAF, though, so you need to carry a spare in the trunk. The VW nightmares are all TDIs - avoid them like the plague they are. VW also has lousy automatic transmissions, the same as Mercedes. In both cases, get the non-gps/wireless/electronic junkie basic trim package and the stickshift. The VW handles well, though. Tons of aftermarket mods and upgrades.
Still, the money now has to be on the Fit and Yaris. A 3 year old TDI sells for what a new one of these will.
Yes, the Fit is going to be a nice car. Very much like a mini-Matrix or a revision of the old CVCC wagon. Good resale value, though who sells such a good econbox what gets 45mpg? Honda is positioning this car like the Pruis - little competition. Side airbags, ABS, tonf of features, built like a Toyota or Honda - sand the same price as a Hyundai or basic Focus.
14K, nearly the same mileage as a hybrid Civic or simmilar car, and no batteries, no premium fuel - no nothing... the hybrid the we see are second-rate kludges compared to what they can be designed to do. People are modifying Prius' and getting nearly 100mpg - and it's a large car with a big engine compared to what it really needs to get around.
The transmission is integrated into the design. When it's going downhill, it's charging the system - true regenerative power. Two 50HP versions would be enough for any small car(or two 33HP), given the crazy torque these provide.
100mpg, easy. That's what gets me and why I still won't buy a hybrid - it looks more like a means to get the yuppies and government to be satisfied rather than an example of how we really can tell OPEC to get lost.
So now you are saying owners opinions and FACTS presented don't count because they are all a bunch of liers....I GET 52 MILES PER GALLON ON MY 05 PRIUS....
But the price difference is more like $5k between the 3s 5dr and Prius. Fully loaded 3 w/ NAV is $22k. Prius w/ NAV is $27.5k. Slight discount on Maz vs. probalby noe on Prius. Tax savings is $500 @ 25% bracket. At $3/gal gas, 45mpg vs. 27mpg = 112k miles to overcome in fuel savings. Mazda3 is wider than Prius, but less rear leg room. Seems most people are getting around 30mpg on the highway as it is rate at 32mpg.
How are people calculating $1000/yr savings in fuel? 45mpg vs. 27mpg @ 15k/yr & $3 = $667/yr. I don't average $3/gal either.
No One is arguing the point that a small car like the Pissant is better handling then the much larger and OLDER LS400.
The Prius is not a sports car...It handles fine and it's ABS and Side Curtin airbags and Vehicle Skid Control make it a nice safe family car that is also is a nice size and has great utility...For me the Nav. system is also a huge plus.
The Miata and Mustang are much better then the Passant on those windy roads...why keep pushing the "VW"
Actually the Prius has huge advantages over the VW...
1) Gas Milage/ and the fact it is as environmentally Clean as anything on the road. 2) Features 3) It's great utility 4) Last but not least.......Reliability....
GPS Outstanding sound system VSC Leather Not as large inside Utility
I do agree it is a nice car...My daughter just bought a Focus but she thought about the Mazda 3..Unfortunately it was more expensive and didn't have the features you can get on a Focus.
You are missing the point. The elusive fuel savings of a Prius vs any smaller vehicle is NOT the reason it is being bought. That reason is WAY down the list of reasons for purchase. In fact as I posted earlier most buyers ( abt 75% ) want the MOST expensive model @$27500 or above.
And the Prius is not for everyone. If the 3s is for you because of handling then go for it. Its why there are so many models.
Yea...Thats the attitude...Keep driving that Gas eater until something perfact comes along...Two to three times the milage you are getting now and Clean is not enough...
WE WILL BRING OPEC TO THEIR KNEES...WITH THAT ATTITUDE...IN 30 YEARS.
You must not have examined the same Mazda 3 5dr I see. It has NAV, good sound system (better, I don't know), leather and utility and is wider inside than the Prius. Hatch is small as well as rear seat leg room.
If fuel economy is not on the list, then I can get most of the features on the Prius at lower initial cost. In addition, I can have a lot more fun driving in something like a Mazda3 than the fancy Prius appliance.
The Mazda3 is not for me. Neither is the Prius. Neither have the capabilities/size I want. My daily driver for 75 miles round trip gets 20-21mpg and nothing with its capabilities can beat it. Fuel is still cheap, even at $2.719 I paid this morning.
I am not pushing the VW TDI. I plan to sell mine while the market is hot. I just think the VW diesel offers more than the Prius. Reliability is not in the Prius favor so far. If you check out the 2004-2005 Prius troubles on the ODI site, you will find many more problems than for the Passat TDI. I think a lot of the negative remarks on this forum about the VW TDI are because they will do most everything better than the hybrids. A Jetta TDI Wagon gets an easy 45 MPG and has as much if not more space to haul stuff as the Prius. Those that own the Jetta TDI love them as much as the Prius owners love their cars. The one BIG plus for the VW is you can use 100% non fossil fuel biodiesel. You are a captive of OPEC with all current hybrids.
The site you are referring to is very misleading. There are entire websites dedicated solely to VW Unreliability. When CR releases their reliability ratings for the 2004/5 Prius, you will see it will be OUTSTANDING. Much better than anyone driving a VW can ever imagine.
There is a $3,150 tax CREDIT available as of 1/1/06. That is where I deducted the cost to put it on the playing field with the Mazda 3. Regardless, the Mazda is what it is. It can be equipped nearly as well as the Prius. The Mazda 3 is based on the Volvo S40 platform (a good thing). The Prius back seat is HUGE in comparison to the Mazda 3. The Prius will get double the mileage the Mazda gets. Mazda? No thanks!! Still in line for my Prius! Can't wait!!
How about the handling , sportiness, road-feel and overall fun factor in drving.
The is more than one way to get from point A to B.
You can go the hyper-mileage route or you can go the fun, sporty route.
RELABILITY, RELABILITY - Posh! All cars are so much more reliable than those 30 , 20, 10, 5 years ago. Who sayes VW hasn't addressed or is addressing the problem! I think one makes much too do about nothing!.
Also too me fun and sporty means - the fun of manually shifting gears, but alas that is too much effort or coordination for most. Pretty soon we will get no exercise at all and just evolve to brains in liquid food.
When CR releases their reliability ratings for the 2004/5 Prius
Their mileage ratings for the Prius were very poor. Why do you think the reliability ratings will be good? The NHTSA investigation cannot bode well for Prius reliability. Fortunately for Toyota very few people look at the ODI investigations.
Who cares? I like most Americans want to get from point A to point B on a daily basis. For the weekend, I can have my fun with a Bimmer (if I want). The attributes you mentioned are nice but definitely not a part of the Honda Accord family. Many articles mention bland, uninspired, numb to name a few. All I care is getting to work, running my errands etc. The Prius is indeed a FUN car to drive.
Reliability has nothing to do with mileage. CR gathers their data from thousands upon thousands of subscribers. I can assure you that the reliability will be better than your VW. That's definitely a non issue for me. Amazing... Toyota can't even keep up with the demand lately. I can't wait to get mine!!! Oh... lastly... CR got 42 overall with their car. Better than any other car they've ever tested except maybe the Insight. Have you checked out greenhybrid? 48 mpg baby!!! Gotta love it!!
I guess you have not heard. VW cannot keep up with the demand for the new Jetta TDI. The going price is $1000 over MSRP if you are lucky enough to find one. Any car that gets over 40 MPG is going to be in demand with the price of fuel where it is. If the price of gas goes back close to $2 per gallon. The high mileage cars will not move as fast off the lots.
The Prius was a hit before hit BEFORE gass hit $2/gallong. The poor suckers lining up to buy the VW diesels are uninformed bozos who will eventually regret their purchase. Just like the folks that bought GM diesel conversion cars in the 70's.
I must disagree. VW has been making and selling diesels in the US market for years longer than the Prius has been in development. Their are many out their with 100's of thousands of miles -- they are known as reliable power trains.
The Prius' are cool, new and Toyota's. They are probably quite reliable.
The VW Passat is a CR best buy for the year if memory serves (saw it last night). And it is a whole lot more luxury than the Prius ever dreams of being.
Just too many electrical gremlins and high maintenance and poor dealer network. I've owned two Audis. Fun cars, well built, but extremely temperamental.
The Prius is not a luxury car and will never be. That will be the upcoming Lexus 450h or something similar to that moniker. THAT will wipe the floor with the Passat. Passat is nice, just not a Lexus.
How about this: an average car sits on the dealer lot for 60 days before being bought. Hot cars are about 10-20 days. For the Prius, it is about 20 hours
"8 foot ladder in the Prius. What happens when you have an emergency stop? Bet it leaves a dent in your dash."
Never drive that fast when you're hauling stuffs. Just put the seats down, cushion the ladder at a few places with folded towl, and you're good to go. The A ladder would level under the window and a few inches from the dash so that you could still open the glove compartment.
"So now you are saying owners opinions and FACTS presented don't count because they are all a bunch of liers....I GET 52 MILES PER GALLON ON MY 05 PRIUS.... "
No no. I think he meant that if one has an issue with one's wife, one shouldn't ask for advice from the in-laws because they would all be biased. May be one should ask a Mongolian medicine man because he would be more neutral. But I think the medicine man is arguably not neutral the moment he says any thing to get paid, or get you to buy his magazines.
This reminds me of a book by Ann Colter, "How to talk to a Liberal, if you must" May be some pointers in that book would be helpful.
Comments
Also, a Mazda 3 5dr can be had with many of the option the Prius has. No stability control or smart key system, but $21k instead of 27k. And it drives so much better.
Mr. Mattox never said anything like the following:
"Mr Mattox here has stated that he bought his Prius for the comfort, features and value he got over any other midsized vehicle because there is NO OTHER midsized vehicle with all these features at anywhere near the price of a Prius. Think how smart the Marketing Dept was to place the highest volume Prius where it had NO COMPETITION. How often does that happen?"
Mr. Mattox owns an LS430 (ULTRA) that he loves and the Prius is not nearly as comfortable...that is my wife's car.
I suspect no car buying decision is made solely for the Fuel economy.... The reasons my wife bought the car in order are these.
1) Ecology....
2) Fuel savings...and we bought before the big increase in gas prices
3) Her sister own's an older Prius and loves it...the 05 is bigger and more suited to our families needs...
4) The car is just the right size for her...the hatch back is great for shopping...the rear seats comfortably seats 2 adults...
5) Features like VSC...ABS...Heated outside mirrors...NAVAGATION SYSTEM..(Our family will never buy another car without a nav. system) The really nice sound system..and generally the over all utility of the car...
6) Price was less then the Honda..Hybred (The Accord not the civic which was too small) the bigger Honda also got poorer gas milage.
I did not find another Hybrid with the combination of factors listed above...
I have asked if you are anyone on the board can find another mid size Hybrid in the this price range with these features and room or any midsized getting milage in the 40s to 50s with these features at this price ....
Finally I will note for the record that while the new Diesel may get comperable milage on the freeway...it is the city driving the stop and go driving that seperates the Hybrids from the others...they get 50 plus in that kind of driving.
1. I could put an 8-ft ladder inside. Try that with a VW.
2. I could put a 6.5HP lawn mower inside (wrap the handle forward), to mow grass on my other property.
Pretty good utility, huh?
I don't have a VW to try that on...
For instance, the whole global appraisal business is based on hiring an impartial party, so as to avoid this very thing.
Anti-lock Brake System (ABS) with Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD)
Dual front seat-mounted side-impact air bags
Side-impact front and rear air curtains
Is electric AC any better than mechanical AC? Do you mean automatic climate control? 2006 Grand Touring trim has that.
CVT, seriously? That's a benefit? I prefer manual transmissions, but CVT's are marginally better than automatics to the average driver.
Mazda3 also offers things the Prius can not. Leather seats, moonroof, manual tranny, 17" wheels, tire pressure monitoring.
Now that the HSD is well accepted, stage 3 of the Marketing strategy is go for the heart of the US market - the millions of current/potential Camry owners. I doubt that the Camry buyer will want all the gadgets that the Prius has but a SULEV with avg mpgs in the mid 30's vs mid 20's will appeal to a lot of current Camry owners.
So next year Toyota will have 2 midsized Hybrids each attracting different segments. If the President of Toyota is correct you will see trucks next, then minivans ( already exist in Japan ), the Corolla at some point, then every vehicle will have a Hybrid option.
kdhspyder
I included our Lexus, as you are better able to relate to the handling of the Lexus. The VW Passat is superior in handling to the LS400. It is not as comfortable or quiet. Life is full of compromises. If someone builds the perfect vehicle I will get in line to buy one. So far for me the PU truck comes the closest. The Prius is loaded with gadgets and lacks decent handling. I like to take drives in the back country on windy roads. The Passat is much better designed for that kind of driving. I refuse to go on the freeways during peak traffic hours. I don't want to add to the mess out there. It has been years since I was in stop n go traffic. That eliminates the one big plus on the Prius side of the ledger.
8 foot ladder in the Prius. What happens when you have an emergency stop? Bet it leaves a dent in your dash.
Still, the money now has to be on the Fit and Yaris. A 3 year old TDI sells for what a new one of these will.
Yes, the Fit is going to be a nice car. Very much like a mini-Matrix or a revision of the old CVCC wagon. Good resale value, though who sells such a good econbox what gets 45mpg? Honda is positioning this car like the Pruis - little competition. Side airbags, ABS, tonf of features, built like a Toyota or Honda - sand the same price as a Hyundai or basic Focus.
14K, nearly the same mileage as a hybrid Civic or simmilar car, and no batteries, no premium fuel - no nothing... the hybrid the we see are second-rate kludges compared to what they can be designed to do. People are modifying Prius' and getting nearly 100mpg - and it's a large car with a big engine compared to what it really needs to get around.
A proper design would be a 1.0L TDI type engine/generator. Possibly a 600CC rotary or simmilar. A fixed-rpm engine powers the all-electric drivetrain. The motors are this:
http://www.solomontechnologies.com/Solomon%20new/electric%20wheel.html
The transmission is integrated into the design. When it's going downhill, it's charging the system - true regenerative power. Two 50HP versions would be enough for any small car(or two 33HP), given the crazy torque these provide.
100mpg, easy. That's what gets me and why I still won't buy a hybrid - it looks more like a means to get the yuppies and government to be satisfied rather than an example of how we really can tell OPEC to get lost.
How are people calculating $1000/yr savings in fuel? 45mpg vs. 27mpg @ 15k/yr & $3 = $667/yr. I don't average $3/gal either.
The Prius is not a sports car...It handles fine and it's ABS and Side Curtin airbags and Vehicle Skid Control make it a nice safe family car that is also is a nice size and has great utility...For me the Nav. system is also a huge plus.
The Miata and Mustang are much better then the Passant on those windy roads...why keep pushing the "VW"
Actually the Prius has huge advantages over the VW...
1) Gas Milage/ and the fact it is as environmentally Clean as anything on the road.
2) Features
3) It's great utility
4) Last but not least.......Reliability....
GPS
Outstanding sound system
VSC
Leather
Not as large inside
Utility
I do agree it is a nice car...My daughter just bought a Focus but she thought about the Mazda 3..Unfortunately it was more expensive and didn't have the features you can get on a Focus.
And the Prius is not for everyone. If the 3s is for you because of handling then go for it. Its why there are so many models.
kdhspyder
LOL!! I think they would tempt both Prius and Porsche drivers alike!
WE WILL BRING OPEC TO THEIR KNEES...WITH THAT ATTITUDE...IN 30 YEARS.
I am not pushing the VW TDI. I plan to sell mine while the market is hot. I just think the VW diesel offers more than the Prius. Reliability is not in the Prius favor so far. If you check out the 2004-2005 Prius troubles on the ODI site, you will find many more problems than for the Passat TDI. I think a lot of the negative remarks on this forum about the VW TDI are because they will do most everything better than the hybrids. A Jetta TDI Wagon gets an easy 45 MPG and has as much if not more space to haul stuff as the Prius. Those that own the Jetta TDI love them as much as the Prius owners love their cars. The one BIG plus for the VW is you can use 100% non fossil fuel biodiesel. You are a captive of OPEC with all current hybrids.
Cheers,
MidCow
The is more than one way to get from point A to B.
You can go the hyper-mileage route or you can go the fun, sporty route.
RELABILITY, RELABILITY - Posh! All cars are so much more reliable than those 30 , 20, 10, 5 years ago. Who sayes VW hasn't addressed or is addressing the problem! I think one makes much too do about nothing!.
Also too me fun and sporty means - the fun of manually shifting gears, but alas that is too much effort or coordination for most. Pretty soon we will get no exercise at all and just evolve to brains in liquid food.
cheers,
MidCow
Their mileage ratings for the Prius were very poor. Why do you think the reliability ratings will be good? The NHTSA investigation cannot bode well for Prius reliability. Fortunately for Toyota very few people look at the ODI investigations.
I guess you have not heard. VW cannot keep up with the demand for the new Jetta TDI. The going price is $1000 over MSRP if you are lucky enough to find one. Any car that gets over 40 MPG is going to be in demand with the price of fuel where it is. If the price of gas goes back close to $2 per gallon. The high mileage cars will not move as fast off the lots.
thanks......
kdhspyder
Your intelligent and well rounded insightful views are of great benefit to everyone here who wants to buy a hybrid!
Thanks and keep up the good analytical research! :P
Okay, return to your neutral corners. He said he was sorry (sort of).
The Prius' are cool, new and Toyota's. They are probably quite reliable.
The VW Passat is a CR best buy for the year if memory serves (saw it last night). And it is a whole lot more luxury than the Prius ever dreams of being.
How about this: an average car sits on the dealer lot for 60 days before being bought. Hot cars are about 10-20 days. For the Prius, it is about 20 hours
jt
Never drive that fast when you're hauling stuffs. Just put the seats down, cushion the ladder at a few places with folded towl, and you're good to go. The A ladder would level under the window and a few inches from the dash so that you could still open the glove compartment.
No no. I think he meant that if one has an issue with one's wife, one shouldn't ask for advice from the in-laws because they would all be biased. May be one should ask a Mongolian medicine man because he would be more neutral. But I think the medicine man is arguably not neutral the moment he says any thing to get paid, or get you to buy his magazines.
This reminds me of a book by Ann Colter, "How to talk to a Liberal, if you must" May be some pointers in that book would be helpful.
Cheers...