Go to autotrader.com. I just checked. Came up with 193 new 2005 priuses on dealer lots that are part of that network. Some dealers had up to 11 in stock. Average list price: just under 25 grand. I know where I live (midwest) the dealers have plenty in stock.
I did the same thing in my Prius. I surrounded the front and back with protection and it was really all I needed to do. I've also transported a snow blower, lawnmower and two bikes. Not at the same time I love this car!! No problems to report after 37,000 miles.
Are those reporting mileage reports in the low 50's actually calculating the mileage with a calculator (miles driven divided by gallons put in the tank) or simply recording the average mileage as reported by the on-board computer?
If the on-board computer is inaccurate (and from anecdotal evidence regarding other Toyotas, the on-board computers are notoriously optimistic computing fuel mileage), I wonder if this is one reason why the various testing organizations record lower mileage numbers, since they actually calculate the mileage.
Most people use the old fashioned method. The onboard computer in the Prius is pretty accurate. Don't expect to get 60mpg in the city. It ain't gonna happen. The good news is that you'll easily get in the mid 40's. My brother has a 2004 Solara with the 4 cyl engine. In stop and go city driving on short trips he is lucky to get 18 mpg.
I think it all boils down to what kind of personality you are: Type A or B.
The Type A personality will seek a car that balances MPG with performance/handling considerations and will press the pedal hard while going through curves and switchbacks.
The Type B personality will solely focus on MPG figures and end up driving like old timid Aunt Ester with the air conditioner off.
In fact I agree with your views about manual trannys. I think a future MT turbodiesel Honda Accord or a MT BMW turbodiesel will fulfill the fuel efficient needs of most Type A personalities. All hybrids would be a disaster for any driver who loves driving since his mileage will be inconsistent with EPA results.
I can almost guarantee you that the upcoming hybrid Lexus GS450H will have real shoddy fuel mileage if "driven" to its potential. The Lexus will have wonderful mileage if driven like a Toyota Echo, but then what would be the point of owning a Lexus??
Let's see the 6-speed Honda Accord Coupe EX with NAV doesn't have quite the handling my 98 M3 did I will agree, but with the17 inch wheels it handels very well, significantly better than a Prius.
Second it is FUN to be able to accelerate and shift, but then to cruise for relatively good mileage ( about 32 on the highway). The Prius is about the slowest car that Toyota or anyone else for that matter makes. It goes from 0-60 mph in around 10 seconds. All Toyotas except the Echo auto and Corolla auto are faster, that includes SUVs. The average family car is now in the range of 8-9 seconds.
The just isn't any FUN in automatics that have languid acceleration.
I have driven and owned many, many cars and my Accord doesn't seem bland, ininspired or numb. It may not be the absolute best, but it provided the features I wanted, good perfromance, good handling, good acceleration, good utility, relaibility, good mileage and most of all MANUAL TRANSMISSION.
Let's see what do hybdrids offer: H'mm better mileage yes, the Prius has better utility. Even with hybrids the only one now offered with manual transmission is the Insight which is a special order at MSRP.
The Lexus 400h and the HAH offer acceleration. Toyota and Honda offer relablitiy.
I drive in a straight line to work. Around these parts there ain't no curves. Just traffic during rush hour. No hills... sorta like south Florida. The Honda Accord is great. It's what I consider the Kitchenaid of cars. The Prius is also a wonderful appliance. It just has a few more features and utility than an Accord coupe. I consider the car to be quite peppy. I have not trouble merging and keeping up with traffic. Are you telling me you floor your car from a standstill every time you accelerate? I doubt it. What mileage do you get at a constant 80 MPH ? I have gotten 42 MPG at a steady 80 MPH. Can't get that in Accord! No way! I also love manual transmissions in the mountains. I hate it in an urban setting. Way too stressful. Can't wait for my very own Prius. Starting the weekly countdown now!! WOOHOOOOO!!!!
"Are those reporting mileage reports in the low 50's actually calculating the mileage with a calculator (miles driven divided by gallons put in the tank) or simply recording the average mileage as reported by the on-board computer?"
The key is the NUMBER of miles driven, used as the denominator in the calculation. For low number of miles, you can argue that the computer is less accurate, for many reasons (bladder tank, accuracy of the filling station shutting off when full of gas, etc.)
But for high number of miles, at least hundreds of miles and over more than one tank of gas, the calculated mpg begins to have far higher statistical significance because of many reasons: 1. larger denominator 2. more miles means more even driving (i.e. one can be in Colorado and go down hill for many miles, racking pretty high mpg that is not realistic and fair) 3. smaller uncertainties (at filling stations, etc.) should "average" out.
I've gotten over 60mpg on a Prius before, but that was after about 15miles or so. Then it drops off to the 50s after more driving. This means I was not able to maintain over 60mpg for significant number of miles. Therefore it's not a fair number to report.
So when people quote certain mpg, you should ask "Over how many miles?"
"reason why the various testing organizations record lower mileage numbers"
Having driven almost exclusively on Hybrid for the last 4 years on 3 hybrids, I would argue that there are two main reasons (at least): 1. There is a break-in period for the vehicle before you start to get optimum mileage. This is the period when the electronic control system and mechanical system are starting to get better as a system. On the Lexus 400h, I think it's around 5,000miles. I think it's higher on the Prius. May be the gas engines just don't have to work that hard on a light hybrid, so it takes more time to break in ????? A test org. can't possibly drive that many miles on a vehicle.
2. It takes awhile for a person to learn how to drive "more efficiently" on a hybrid. There is a learning curve. Once they get a hang of it, the mileage gets better. But if they don't, it's not that bad.
And then there is a more cynical look at the situation. You've got to ask "Who FEEDs the various testing organizations??" shhhh: Follow the money...
It's like the beef-people would put up ads to say that Beef is good for you, and wine people would say that wine is good for you, and the pork people would say that white meat is good... Few people would speak against the hand that feeds them (except for the UN ). There's economic agenda.
How to get a good VW: #1: Must be made in Germany. No exceptions. Made in Mexico is asking to have gremlins. The same goes for Honda and Toyota - they are made better in Japan. #2: Stickshift only. VW transmissions with their AI and "learning" nonsense are crud. Mercedes is just as awful. Plus, a new transmission is $2500 versus $400-$500 for a clutch job. AND you can't push-start them or deal with a failing transmission or... all of which you can do with a stickshift to get you to the shop. #3: TDI or VR6(older engine) only. The gasoline engine and the gas-turbo are hopelessly unreliable. The older V6 in the VR6 models(NOT the new replacement) are quite decent - their only truly reliable gasoline model. #4: Audis and VWs are great cars if you ditch all of the electronics, motorized options, and so on. Electric sunroofs, for instance, eventually fail. Been that way since they came out. GPS - eventually the computer cooks in the sun. Power seats and so on - can't hardly find a car over ten years old with them still working close to new. These "gremlins" are fully half of the problems people report with all cars, so the trim/options have to be taken into account. That said, VW/Audi and Chrysler/Mercedes have terrible accessory longevity.
Yes, it'll be a stripped-down car, but still worlds better than a loaded Focus or Hyundai. The Golf is quite useable as a mini-wagon as well. With the mandated low-sulfur diesel and biodiesel that are coming next year, it'll pollute less than a gasoline engine as well. Biodiesel pollutes a fraction of gasoline and doesn't create global warming or acid rain as a byproduct(though local pollution isn't really much different). It's exactly like alcohol - the stuff made from fruits and grains is completely different than the stuff made with anything else. Burning vegetable oils creates a fraction of the environmental problems of burning petrolium oils. And, it's infinately renewable as well as a good source of income and employment for our farmers. http://www.biodiesel.org/ The advantage of the TDI engine is that you can run diesel or biodiesel in it if you really want to save the planet.
And then there is a more cynical look at the situation. You've got to ask "Who FEEDs the various testing organizations??" shhhh: Follow the money
I have mentioned the fact that CR accepts "donations". What is to keep them from slanting the results for or against a product based on donations? CR was the darling publication when it was bestowing accolades on the Prius. When it tested the mileage and came up with a paltry 35 MPG the same people that defended them in the past called them inept at testing the Prius mileage. I guess some would like to only take the part they agree with from a publication.
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But I just posted that they are on the lots out here. Now really, is my credibility so low around here that I gotta go out and take a PICTURE?!!
I don't know how long they stay around, that's true, and there aren't that many of them, but they're out there, just looking like little puppies in a store window.
I am looking at the Passant in ) 05 CR...it gets 28mpg on diesel...I read the last edmonds compairson of the top 10 family sedans and it finished 5th....
It is recommended by CR...However it is rated Avg. for Reliability and Avg. for Satisfaction.
Prius..shows 44 MPG ( I get 52 in mixed driving) Is their TOP PICK ...(A higher rating then Recommended) It rates Excellent for Reliability and Excellent for Satisfaction....
How to get a good, reliable hybrid car: 1.Go to your dealer and buy one.
Biodiesel is a good idea but regular diesel is often scarce enough. I don't think I've ever seen a station selling biodiesel. Sure, some people mix lye, sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, methanol and oil on their own property but most I think are not willing to set up a refinery lab in their shed then deal with the waste glycerin.
Those are both good reasons why I bought my regular gas burning hybrid car.
The point of owning a LEXUS LS is Luxury...A Smooth quiet ride (the best available)...The best sound system you can get in a car...Every safety feature worth worth having...Every convience feature worth having and then some ...Radar Cruse control is awesome for example.
Some people soley use CR for their car choices and end up buying boring appliances and cars I dont need opinions from CR in order to determine what car is appropriate for me!
Based on what is important to you I think Lexus is an ideal car. But my opinion is somewhat different. My priorities are drivetrain and chassis consideration(and that does include MPG). Gizmos and luxuries are somewhere below my top 15 list in buying a car.
One important factor about choosing your next car is reliability. I choose the hybird because it has proven itself a reliable runner without any major problems, unlike some of its competition:
As I said if you solely use CR you will exclude such worthy and interesting cars like a Jetta TDI!
I know colleagues at work and acquaintances with TDIs I dont hear complaints or excuses that they are late for work because of car problems. In fact all I hear are praises!
If everybody solely relied on CR the sales of Jetta TDI would be NIL. But it appears people buy the Jetta because other sources of information are Jetta-praiseworthy!
A lexus LS ...Is all about creature comfort....If you don't like Luxury features you would never want a LEXUS..LS...
It is true the new 07 hybrid LS will be Luxury Laden...and in addition will have increased acceleration due to the electric motor...Probably Below 5 Sec in 0-60.
My LS 430 goes 0-60 in 5.9 sec. But it is not a car that will corner like a BMW...Just as a BMW is not as Quiet or smooth or Reliable...We are all different in our wants and needs.
CR actually RECOMMENDS VW PASSANT...In the 05 issue...apparently they read all those praise worthy sources of information...Or rather their tests confirmed what others were saying about the Passant...
They don't recomment many German cars other then BMW...5 Series.
Yesterday and the day before there was a flurry of posts comparing the cost of a no-frills econo box cars to a nicely, or fully loaded hybrid car.
Dewey, you make my point perfectly- that people buy cars in every market, even if they cost more. No wonder why people pay a little more for a fully loaded HCH or a nicely loaded Prius, vs the econo boxes mentioned in those earlier posts.
Lexus surely is a nice car. Not something I'd buy though. Why? Because it's not in my market!
Lexus are very relaible, comfortable and luxurious.
Howver, the maintenance is very high, is every 5,000 miles and when something breaks Lexus replaces it with a new one instead of trying to fix it. The replacement is okay when the car is under warranty , but expensvie when it is not.
I will restate again I wouldn't get a Lexus hybrid, a hybrid will get better gas mileage than the equvalent ICE car and will save you money ( after the debatable $2,000- $5,000 initial cost incremental is paid off). So if you buy a hybrid to save money why would you buy a hybrid vehicle that has very high routine maintnance cost and even higher non-routine maintenance or out-of -warratny maintenace cost?
Having said all that Lexus are great cars, just not cheap to keep.
CR got an overall 42 or 44 in their Prius. NOT 35. Where do you get your information?
I never said that CR got 35 MPG overall. They got 35 MPG city and 50 MPG highway. That is 42% below the city EPA rating. Here is the CR report for you to check out.
I'm not sure why people would buy a hybrid Lexus either, it seems to me that if they don't mind spending that much money in the first place then they probably wouldn't care too much about the fuel cost.
Unless they are concerned about smog or want just want a "Green" image.
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I wish to express that people refrain to posting incorrect information. CR has gotten an average of 42 with their Prius. NOT 35!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CR accepts donations from individuals NOT corporations. :sick: :sick:
The Prius has the best mileage of any gas car tested by CR except the Insight. Way to go Prius!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"The key is the NUMBER of miles driven, used as the denominator in the calculation."
I understand HOW to calculate mileage. I also understand that you'll get more accurate results by CALCULATING the mileage over more than one tank. (I've got a little spreadsheet written to give me a running average over the preceeding 3 tanks). My question was simply how does the mileage calculated by hand compare to what the trip computer tells you?
The trip computer KNOWS what the number of miles driven is. However, the trip computer is only taking an approximation of the amount of fuel consumed; it does NOT directly measure the amount of fuel consumed. I was simply curious about how accurate the trip computer was and whether or not this could be one of the reasons there appears to be such a discrepancy between the mileage that some owners report and what the magazines report.
"I've gotten over 60mpg on a Prius before..."
Yes, I'm sure that conditions can conspire so that over short distances, one can get very good numbers. I'm also sure that conditions can conspire so that over short distance, one can get very BAD numbers. I know, I've seen EXACTLY the same thing in my dad's Prius. Everything goes terrific and mileage is super for 3 bars (15 minutes), and then normal traffic sets in (or I get tired of pretending there's a Faberge egg under my right foot) and mileage starts showing more realistic numbers. I'm sure that if I had the exact same little video game (er, sorry, 'energy consumption monitor') in a 'normal' car, I could record some impressive, short term, numbers as well.
BTW - my dad (who takes a great deal of pride in the mileage he can achieve in his Prius) has averaged around 48 over the 25k+ miles he's put on his car. However, I don't know if this number is what he has recorded from the trip computer, or what he has calculated by total miles driven / gallons consumed.
Sorry about that. I was trying to say that when taken over large number of miles, it's my experience (on my cars) that the error from trip computer, and other errors, kind of cancel each other out and aren't big enough to explain differences people voiced.
I normally keep the tires 38-40psi, below the 44psi limit. Keeps the car roll better with better gas mileage. That may be helpful to some.
One of the reasons people buy Lexus is that things rarely break...The service calls for oil changes every 5000 miles with larger maintance every 15,000 miles when tires are rotated and pretty much everything is checked brakes hoses etc...Transmission fluid changes are a example....It is true that some of the maintance does cost more then on most cars....brakes are a very good example because they use very expensive brakes (cermanic I think?) and they insist on turning the drums when the do a brake job...I needed the rear brakes done at about 35,000 miles...
While they are not cheap to keep ...they rarely have any mechanical breakdowns ...partially because of the maintance...and it is not all that expensive...so far mine is running about $600- $800 per yr. Not a bad price to pay for piece of mind..and total confidence that when Leave home I will not be stranded somewhere.
Lexus is already on of the Cleanest mass produced cars on the road...Passes all California Pollution standards without modifing...The Prius is even cleaner.
Yes people who Own lexus can afford the gas but are also willing to spend a little extra to be good citizens both in gas conservation and the positive green effect.
But Many who own Lexus and will buy the hybrid...Will get it for the raw extra power they will get off the line...Luxury, Green, Fuel efficent...RAW POWER...Talk about having it all.
$800 a year isn't cheap, either. My old Volvo 240 I had a few years back cost me - yep - $200 a year in maintainence. On a ten year old vehicle at the time. Most of that was oil changes and things like bulbs and folters and so on.
As for diesel - you have to be kidding. Millions of delivery trucks in the U.S. - all running on diesel. Every other station has at least one diesel pump these days, and even if it's not biodiesel, when it becomes more available, you can fill it up like normal and laugh as you've suddenly surpassed the gasoline engines in cleanliness.
If you really want to, btw, you can convert most diesels to run on pure oil - no lye or methanol or other junk. You can even drop a quart or two of cooking oil in the tank in an emergency with such a vehicle. Those stories you hear - they aren't making biodiesel blends in their garage - it's converting vegetable oil so that it's useable at lower temperatures/in the winter. It's no more complex than running a honey extractor, with only a few moving parts.
The cost is about 50 cents a gallon, plus about $1000 in modifications to the vehicle and equipment to make your own fuel at home. That adds up fast, with a break-even point at about 20-25K miles($3 a gallon for gas as a comparison). That's a very quick return on your money compared to a hybrid. AND you can drop regular diesel in it in an emergency or on a trip.(the kit installs a second tank for the cooking oil, leaving your original tank intact - a simple switch on the dash switches between the two)
I think a Lexus type Prius would sell very well in the market. Imagine it had a 2.0 liter Atkinson engine with a larger pack for better performance. Granted the mileage would take a hit, but it would be a nice thought. Sunroof, leather, the works! Guess I have to settle for my Toyota Prius. About ten more weeks!! Can't wait to be with the "in crowd".
From my experience in driving demos on several longish trip and in discussions with many prior clients owning Gen1 and Gen2 Prius' . I think both are correct :surprise: . If you look at Priuschat there are several threads on mpg and ways to increase it. Strategies and pitfalls if you will.
If one owns a Prius and attempts to maximize mpg then it seems certain that 50 to 60 on a regular basis is attainable. Most of my prior clients though report a figure right around 48-49 on long term usage.
Why does CR seem to report the REVERSE of the Prius label? 35 City 50 Highway
It seems that there is a significant difference in mpg in the City ratings which I have noticed also. Some contributing factors: Length of trip A/C or not Outside temp ( winter gas or summer gas )
The conclusion seems to be that if you jump in your Prius and run to the store 2 miles away, shop and return home you might very well get 35 mpg. If like many in the DC, LA, NYC, Boston area you are commuting 30-50 mi to work in stop and go traffic you might very well get 55 mpg for each trip. Better in LA and Dallas than NYC and Boston.
As an example I used to commute into NYC from North Jersey via the Lincoln Tunnel every day ~35 miles. The first 25 miles by Giants Stadium were normally at 60-65 mph slowing to 20ish just before the Lincoln Tunnel then coasting the last 5 miles into NYC at 10-20 mph through the Tunnel - all downhill. Hybrids werent in existence at that time so I ate smog and so did those behind me but I can see now that I might be able to AVERAGE well above 50 mpg for that commute now. Any North Jerseyites make that trip now?
This should open up a whole new case of cans of worms. Enjoy kdhspyder
Very true. My brother has a 4 cyl Solara and he barely gets 20 mpg in city driving of 2-4 miles. Sometimes it has gone as low as 15! Any car will have that problem.
This should open up a whole new case of cans of worms
I don't think so. I think you gave a very concise explanation of how the Prius will handle different driving situations. This is the kind of info that anyone looking at the Prius should study. If you have a long commute, highway or city, the Prius could very well be the vehicle for you. If you do not drive that much, and make short trips to the store, you may not be happy with the mileage you get.
See? Nobody interrogated you for saying that, but you ARE off topic! So far off you're on the moon. :P
Statistics, results and observations are a LOT more squirrely than one might suppose. If someone wants to bend or interpret them one way and another person another way, the Edmunds forums should certainly "allow" that. This isn't a court of law after all.
So and so drives only in the city in his Prius and gets X mpg
So and so drives only on highways in the mountains and gets Y mpg
They are both "correct" in their respective experiences.
Many of us were wondering what was up with the CR tests that showed low mpg on hybrids in the city cycle. One of our fellow members on another forum got a reply from CR stating that they only use a 2.5 mile cycle for their city test and something like five miles for the highway. You are exactly correct they are using a short cycle that is a mileage killer for hybrids in their city test. What is needed is a more real world test for the hybrids for mpg, even the epa this week annouced they are considering changing their hybrid mpg tests to bring them more in line with the real world.
Pletko: The biodiesel my neighbors are making in their garage down the street is used 100% in the regular tank for the diesel vehicle, they dont have two tanks. Theyare making 100 gallons a week from waste fry oil, and you are right its about .50 a gallon cost. One neighbor uses it in two late model Mercedes (100% biodiesel) and another puts it in a 30 year old peugueot. Less smoke, more quiet running and its a renewable resource. I have a 400h that i love but in the best of all worlds i would love to have a diesel hybrid with the ablility to make and use my own fuel. I need an SUV sized vehicle for business use so a smaller car would not be practicle.
Comments
If the on-board computer is inaccurate (and from anecdotal evidence regarding other Toyotas, the on-board computers are notoriously optimistic computing fuel mileage), I wonder if this is one reason why the various testing organizations record lower mileage numbers, since they actually calculate the mileage.
I think it all boils down to what kind of personality you are: Type A or B.
The Type A personality will seek a car that balances MPG with performance/handling considerations and will press the pedal hard while going through curves and switchbacks.
The Type B personality will solely focus on MPG figures and end up driving like old timid Aunt Ester with the air conditioner off.
In fact I agree with your views about manual trannys. I think a future MT turbodiesel Honda Accord or a MT BMW turbodiesel will fulfill the fuel efficient needs of most Type A personalities. All hybrids would be a disaster for any driver who loves driving since his mileage will be inconsistent with EPA results.
I can almost guarantee you that the upcoming hybrid Lexus GS450H will have real shoddy fuel mileage if "driven" to its potential. The Lexus will have wonderful mileage if driven like a Toyota Echo, but then what would be the point of owning a Lexus??
Second it is FUN to be able to accelerate and shift, but then to cruise for relatively good mileage ( about 32 on the highway). The Prius is about the slowest car that Toyota or anyone else for that matter makes. It goes from 0-60 mph in around 10 seconds. All Toyotas except the Echo auto and Corolla auto are faster, that includes SUVs. The average family car is now in the range of 8-9 seconds.
The just isn't any FUN in automatics that have languid acceleration.
I have driven and owned many, many cars and my Accord doesn't seem bland, ininspired or numb. It may not be the absolute best, but it provided the features I wanted, good perfromance, good handling, good acceleration, good utility, relaibility, good mileage and most of all MANUAL TRANSMISSION.
Let's see what do hybdrids offer: H'mm better mileage yes, the Prius has better utility. Even with hybrids the only one now offered with manual transmission is the Insight which is a special order at MSRP.
The Lexus 400h and the HAH offer acceleration. Toyota and Honda offer relablitiy.
Be Sporty Live Longer,
MidCow
The key is the NUMBER of miles driven, used as the denominator in the calculation. For low number of miles, you can argue that the computer is less accurate, for many reasons (bladder tank, accuracy of the filling station shutting off when full of gas, etc.)
But for high number of miles, at least hundreds of miles and over more than one tank of gas, the calculated mpg begins to have far higher statistical significance because of many reasons:
1. larger denominator
2. more miles means more even driving (i.e. one can be in Colorado and go down hill for many miles, racking pretty high mpg that is not realistic and fair)
3. smaller uncertainties (at filling stations, etc.) should "average" out.
I've gotten over 60mpg on a Prius before, but that was after about 15miles or so. Then it drops off to the 50s after more driving. This means I was not able to maintain over 60mpg for significant number of miles. Therefore it's not a fair number to report.
So when people quote certain mpg, you should ask "Over how many miles?"
Having driven almost exclusively on Hybrid for the last 4 years on 3 hybrids, I would argue that there are two main reasons (at least):
1. There is a break-in period for the vehicle before you start to get optimum mileage. This is the period when the electronic control system and mechanical system are starting to get better as a system. On the Lexus 400h, I think it's around 5,000miles. I think it's higher on the Prius. May be the gas engines just don't have to work that hard on a light hybrid, so it takes more time to break in ????? A test org. can't possibly drive that many miles on a vehicle.
2. It takes awhile for a person to learn how to drive "more efficiently" on a hybrid. There is a learning curve. Once they get a hang of it, the mileage gets better. But if they don't, it's not that bad.
And then there is a more cynical look at the situation. You've got to ask "Who FEEDs the various testing organizations??" shhhh: Follow the money...
It's like the beef-people would put up ads to say that Beef is good for you, and wine people would say that wine is good for you, and the pork people would say that white meat is good... Few people would speak against the hand that feeds them (except for the UN
#1: Must be made in Germany. No exceptions. Made in Mexico is asking to have gremlins. The same goes for Honda and Toyota - they are made better in Japan.
#2: Stickshift only. VW transmissions with their AI and "learning" nonsense are crud. Mercedes is just as awful. Plus, a new transmission is $2500 versus $400-$500 for a clutch job. AND you can't push-start them or deal with a failing transmission or... all of which you can do with a stickshift to get you to the shop.
#3: TDI or VR6(older engine) only. The gasoline engine and the gas-turbo are hopelessly unreliable. The older V6 in the VR6 models(NOT the new replacement) are quite decent - their only truly reliable gasoline model.
#4: Audis and VWs are great cars if you ditch all of the electronics, motorized options, and so on. Electric sunroofs, for instance, eventually fail. Been that way since they came out. GPS - eventually the computer cooks in the sun. Power seats and so on - can't hardly find a car over ten years old with them still working close to new. These "gremlins" are fully half of the problems people report with all cars, so the trim/options have to be taken into account. That said, VW/Audi and Chrysler/Mercedes have terrible accessory longevity.
Yes, it'll be a stripped-down car, but still worlds better than a loaded Focus or Hyundai. The Golf is quite useable as a mini-wagon as well. With the mandated low-sulfur diesel and biodiesel that are coming next year, it'll pollute less than a gasoline engine as well. Biodiesel pollutes a fraction of gasoline and doesn't create global warming or acid rain as a byproduct(though local pollution isn't really much different). It's exactly like alcohol - the stuff made from fruits and grains is completely different than the stuff made with anything else. Burning vegetable oils creates a fraction of the environmental problems of burning petrolium oils. And, it's infinately renewable as well as a good source of income and employment for our farmers.
http://www.biodiesel.org/
The advantage of the TDI engine is that you can run diesel or biodiesel in it if you really want to save the planet.
I have mentioned the fact that CR accepts "donations". What is to keep them from slanting the results for or against a product based on donations? CR was the darling publication when it was bestowing accolades on the Prius. When it tested the mileage and came up with a paltry 35 MPG the same people that defended them in the past called them inept at testing the Prius mileage. I guess some would like to only take the part they agree with from a publication.
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I don't understand your agenda...I am looking at the 05 Car issue of CR and it lists the Prius milage at 44...MPG...(Mine gets 52 in mixed driving)
why would you just make stuff up???
I don't know how long they stay around, that's true, and there aren't that many of them, but they're out there, just looking like little puppies in a store window.
It is recommended by CR...However it is rated Avg. for Reliability and Avg. for Satisfaction.
Prius..shows 44 MPG ( I get 52 in mixed driving) Is their TOP PICK ...(A higher rating then Recommended) It rates Excellent for Reliability and Excellent for Satisfaction....
1.Go to your dealer and buy one.
Biodiesel is a good idea but regular diesel is often scarce enough. I don't think I've ever seen a station selling biodiesel.
Sure, some people mix lye, sodium hydroxide, potassium hydroxide, methanol and oil on their own property but most I think are not willing to set up a refinery lab in their shed then deal with the waste glycerin.
Those are both good reasons why I bought my regular gas burning hybrid car.
The point of owning a LEXUS LS is Luxury...A Smooth quiet ride (the best available)...The best sound system you can get in a car...Every safety feature worth worth having...Every convience feature worth having and then some ...Radar Cruse control is awesome for example.
Some people soley use CR for their car choices and end up buying boring appliances and cars
I dont need opinions from CR in order to determine what car is appropriate for me!
Based on what is important to you I think Lexus is an ideal car. But my opinion is somewhat different. My priorities are drivetrain and chassis consideration(and that does include MPG). Gizmos and luxuries are somewhere below my top 15 list in buying a car.
I choose the hybird because it has proven itself a reliable runner without any major problems, unlike some of its competition:
http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2404/Act/usedcarreviewre- liability/
One would have thought they would have fixed the major problems like fires, airbags and steering parts falling off while you drive?
I know colleagues at work and acquaintances with TDIs I dont hear complaints or excuses that they are late for work because of car problems. In fact all I hear are praises!
If everybody solely relied on CR the sales of Jetta TDI would be NIL. But it appears people buy the Jetta because other sources of information are Jetta-praiseworthy!
Can you point to a post in which anyone suggested you Needed CR to make your car choices?...Or that any of us actually know what you SHOULD HAVE...
A lexus LS ...Is all about creature comfort....If you don't like Luxury features you would never want a LEXUS..LS...
It is true the new 07 hybrid LS will be Luxury Laden...and in addition will have increased acceleration due to the electric motor...Probably Below 5 Sec in 0-60.
My LS 430 goes 0-60 in 5.9 sec. But it is not a car that will corner like a BMW...Just as a BMW is not as Quiet or smooth or Reliable...We are all different in our wants and needs.
Have you not seen posters that bought a Prius and justified their puchases with CR statistics?
Do I honestly have to point the posts out?
And yes, I have personally known several people who couldn't get to work driving those for the issues.
Do you need links? They're not hard to find you know.
CR actually RECOMMENDS VW PASSANT...In the 05 issue...apparently they read all those praise worthy sources of information...Or rather their tests confirmed what others were saying about the Passant...
They don't recomment many German cars other then BMW...5 Series.
To each his own! My neighbours love their Lexuses and I cant blame them because they are built like gems.
Dewey, you make my point perfectly- that people buy cars in every market, even if they cost more.
No wonder why people pay a little more for a fully loaded HCH or a nicely loaded Prius, vs the econo boxes mentioned in those earlier posts.
Lexus surely is a nice car. Not something I'd buy though.
Why? Because it's not in my market!
Lexus are very relaible, comfortable and luxurious.
Howver, the maintenance is very high, is every 5,000 miles and when something breaks Lexus replaces it with a new one instead of trying to fix it. The replacement is okay when the car is under warranty , but expensvie when it is not.
I will restate again I wouldn't get a Lexus hybrid, a hybrid will get better gas mileage than the equvalent ICE car and will save you money ( after the debatable $2,000- $5,000 initial cost incremental is paid off). So if you buy a hybrid to save money why would you buy a hybrid vehicle that has very high routine maintnance cost and even higher non-routine maintenance or out-of -warratny maintenace cost?
Having said all that Lexus are great cars, just not cheap to keep.
Cheers,
MidCow 5-speed absolute red IS300 (2002)
I never said that CR got 35 MPG overall. They got 35 MPG city and 50 MPG highway. That is 42% below the city EPA rating. Here is the CR report for you to check out.
http://www.eco-labels.org/greenconsumers/ratings.cfm?product=auto&orderby=CRHwyMPG_DESC&or- derset=ASC,ASC,DESC,DESC,ASC,DESC,DESC,ASC,ASC,ASC
Unless they are concerned about smog or want just want a "Green" image.
kirstie_h
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The Prius has the best mileage of any gas car tested by CR except the Insight. Way to go Prius!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I understand HOW to calculate mileage. I also understand that you'll get more accurate results by CALCULATING the mileage over more than one tank. (I've got a little spreadsheet written to give me a running average over the preceeding 3 tanks). My question was simply how does the mileage calculated by hand compare to what the trip computer tells you?
The trip computer KNOWS what the number of miles driven is. However, the trip computer is only taking an approximation of the amount of fuel consumed; it does NOT directly measure the amount of fuel consumed. I was simply curious about how accurate the trip computer was and whether or not this could be one of the reasons there appears to be such a discrepancy between the mileage that some owners report and what the magazines report.
"I've gotten over 60mpg on a Prius before..."
Yes, I'm sure that conditions can conspire so that over short distances, one can get very good numbers. I'm also sure that conditions can conspire so that over short distance, one can get very BAD numbers. I know, I've seen EXACTLY the same thing in my dad's Prius. Everything goes terrific and mileage is super for 3 bars (15 minutes), and then normal traffic sets in (or I get tired of pretending there's a Faberge egg under my right foot) and mileage starts showing more realistic numbers. I'm sure that if I had the exact same little video game (er, sorry, 'energy consumption monitor') in a 'normal' car, I could record some impressive, short term, numbers as well.
BTW - my dad (who takes a great deal of pride in the mileage he can achieve in his Prius) has averaged around 48 over the 25k+ miles he's put on his car. However, I don't know if this number is what he has recorded from the trip computer, or what he has calculated by total miles driven / gallons consumed.
It is a proven fact that man never landed on the moon. :P
I normally keep the tires 38-40psi, below the 44psi limit. Keeps the car roll better with better gas mileage. That may be helpful to some.
While they are not cheap to keep ...they rarely have any mechanical breakdowns ...partially because of the maintance...and it is not all that expensive...so far mine is running about $600- $800 per yr. Not a bad price to pay for piece of mind..and total confidence that when Leave home I will not be stranded somewhere.
Yes people who Own lexus can afford the gas but are also willing to spend a little extra to be good citizens both in gas conservation and the positive green effect.
But Many who own Lexus and will buy the hybrid...Will get it for the raw extra power they will get off the line...Luxury, Green, Fuel efficent...RAW POWER...Talk about having it all.
As for diesel - you have to be kidding. Millions of delivery trucks in the U.S. - all running on diesel. Every other station has at least one diesel pump these days, and even if it's not biodiesel, when it becomes more available, you can fill it up like normal and laugh as you've suddenly surpassed the gasoline engines in cleanliness.
If you really want to, btw, you can convert most diesels to run on pure oil - no lye or methanol or other junk. You can even drop a quart or two of cooking oil in the tank in an emergency with such a vehicle. Those stories you hear - they aren't making biodiesel blends in their garage - it's converting vegetable oil so that it's useable at lower temperatures/in the winter. It's no more complex than running a honey extractor, with only a few moving parts.
The cost is about 50 cents a gallon, plus about $1000 in modifications to the vehicle and equipment to make your own fuel at home. That adds up fast, with a break-even point at about 20-25K miles($3 a gallon for gas as a comparison). That's a very quick return on your money compared to a hybrid. AND you can drop regular diesel in it in an emergency or on a trip.(the kit installs a second tank for the cooking oil, leaving your original tank intact - a simple switch on the dash switches between the two)
From my experience in driving demos on several longish trip and in discussions with many prior clients owning Gen1 and Gen2 Prius' . I think both are correct :surprise: . If you look at Priuschat there are several threads on mpg and ways to increase it. Strategies and pitfalls if you will.
If one owns a Prius and attempts to maximize mpg then it seems certain that 50 to 60 on a regular basis is attainable. Most of my prior clients though report a figure right around 48-49 on long term usage.
Why does CR seem to report the REVERSE of the Prius label?
35 City
50 Highway
It seems that there is a significant difference in mpg in the City ratings which I have noticed also. Some contributing factors:
Length of trip
A/C or not
Outside temp ( winter gas or summer gas )
The conclusion seems to be that if you jump in your Prius and run to the store 2 miles away, shop and return home you might very well get 35 mpg. If like many in the DC, LA, NYC, Boston area you are commuting 30-50 mi to work in stop and go traffic you might very well get 55 mpg for each trip. Better in LA and Dallas than NYC and Boston.
As an example I used to commute into NYC from North Jersey via the Lincoln Tunnel every day ~35 miles. The first 25 miles by Giants Stadium were normally at 60-65 mph slowing to 20ish just before the Lincoln Tunnel then coasting the last 5 miles into NYC at 10-20 mph through the Tunnel - all downhill. Hybrids werent in existence at that time so I ate smog and so did those behind me
but I can see now that I might be able to AVERAGE well above 50 mpg for that commute now. Any North Jerseyites make that trip now?
This should open up a whole new case of cans of worms. Enjoy
kdhspyder
I don't think so. I think you gave a very concise explanation of how the Prius will handle different driving situations. This is the kind of info that anyone looking at the Prius should study. If you have a long commute, highway or city, the Prius could very well be the vehicle for you. If you do not drive that much, and make short trips to the store, you may not be happy with the mileage you get.
Statistics, results and observations are a LOT more squirrely than one might suppose. If someone wants to bend or interpret them one way and another person another way, the Edmunds forums should certainly "allow" that. This isn't a court of law after all.
So and so drives only in the city in his Prius and gets X mpg
So and so drives only on highways in the mountains and gets Y mpg
They are both "correct" in their respective experiences.