There is very little social cost in the US to driving a large SUV or Car...There are political groups that would like to make it a Social cost but Really I don't see it in this country....It is not what we are about.
I suppose there are quite a lot of niche vehicles then. The Integra, Subaru Legacy.. etc. All those cars sell in numbers similar to the Prius too. I actually would hope it would stay as a niche vehicle. I can't stand when I see myself coming and going. Prius are still rare in these parts... I like that!
What do you suppose the those folks would say if you popped into their area and proclaimed thier cars are only a niche because they don't sell a large volume?
Anyone buy a hybrid so they can convert it to a plug in hybrid? Car and Driver had editorial in latest issue that indicates all of press on 100 plus mpg plug in hybrids may be just BS.
Since this is supposed to be about your reasons for buying a hybrid, I'[m going to move the posts about oil and drilling in Alaska to the What is Peak Oil and does it matter to the average driver? discussion and you may continue there.
Let's try to keep from going all over the place as much as possible. Thanks!
I got my 05 Super White Prius with #6 for $29,700 including $300 over MSRP
How is the response from clients when you take them to look at property in the Prius? I don't think anyone believed me when I told them $29,700 was the going price in San Diego for the #6 Prius. San Diego residents get gouged for a lot of stuff. It is America's most beautiful city, I guess that could be the reason. And the best weather
Remember the tax credit for hybrids in 2006 was designed to favor american and manufacturers who produce these cars in lower numbers than Toyota does. Only the first 60,000 units of a model will qualify for the credit.
Let's not pick out individual cars, yes they are probably all niche players in their own way. Think broader, think "hybrids" as a class or category of vehicles. The class of cars "hybrids" is still a niche class compared to other classes of vehicles, but it is growing rapidly. Until the class or category of "hybrids" reachs a suffcient percentage , i.e more than 5%, of total vechicle sales it will have minimal impact. Of course you have to start semwhere and Toyota and Honda seem to be leading the way. You have to start in little steps, because it is difficult to "boil the ocean".
I thought about it last night when I was trying to sleep and I have a design for HSD-M if Toyota is interested. I figured out how HSD-M can support a 6-speed manual transmission. And then I can buy one:)
I think it is 60k hybrids per manufacturer, not model. In Toyota's case, that could happen in 4 months next year. I'm not sure if the IRS will include Lexus or just Toy products in that total.
I'm curious about the Government rebates: If the hybrids are in high demand (with some folks apparently paying over MSRP), why is the government offering rebates? I've seen lots of reasons posted in here about reasons for buying a hybrid and, although the rebate gets mentioned, it doesn't appear as though the rebate is the MAIN reason for buying.
In an age when virtually everyone says government spending is out of control, could this be an area where government spending is not needed? Or are you guys of the opinion that hybrids simply can't compete in the mainstream market without government support?
The government tax incentives for hybrids have nothing to do with demand.
They have to do with :
1. Helping owners defray the extra costs of the hybrids over a comparable gas model, and 2. Helping encourage people to driver CLEANER, GREENER cars.
Sure hybrid demand is on a high right now. But as a hybrid advocate and owner myself, I can assure you that was not always the case. First generation Prius cars and the Honda Insight were not in huge demand in 1999-2002 - they were kinda small and quirky and underpowered and were only wanted by the greenest of the green tree huggers and the few techies who wanted to try the new technology.
The incentives have helped the Hybrid sales numbers immensely, and that is good for everyone - cleaner cars on the road, more R&D money to the Hybrid car makers, and the hybrids are now in almost every car maker's future plans.
All those reasons are good ones, and the result benefits us all.
"The government tax incentives for hybrids have nothing to do with demand."
That's the point: they should be.
The question is this - if there were no rebates, would fewer hybrids be sold? If the answer is 'yes', does this mean that hybrids have trouble competing with non-hybrids in an open market?
If the answer is 'no', then the rebates are completely unnecessary. Toyota/Honda/etc. will continue to sell every hybrid they pump out.
I'm not talking about past history and the role of rebates on the sale of hybrids. I'm talking about NOW and the continuance of a rebate program. The reasons you list (Help owner defray the extra costs and help encourage people to drive cleaner/greener cars) would still apply 10 years from now even with millions of hybrids on the road. So, at point do you cease the rebate program?
Personally, I think you cease rebates when consumer demand says the rebates are not needed to make sales.
quote rorr-"I think you cease rebates when consumer demand says the rebates are not needed to make sales."-end quote
That point has not been reached.
That point WILL BE REACHED only when all the talk about the "hybrid premium" goes away.
As long as mainstream news stories keep saying over and over like a broken record "Hybrids not worth the money" and "hybrids save gas, not money" and articles like that, then the average uneducated consumer is going to eliminate hybrids from consideration out of hand.
Toyota's bossman has issued a command to the engineers - "Cut hybrid costs in half." When that effort is successful, and hybrid costs to the buying public are in line with comparable gasoline-only cars, THEN we should stop the tax incentives.
That point WILL BE REACHED only when all the talk about the "hybrid premium" goes away.
Actually the rebates will go away when a certain amount of each brand is sold. Some companies may never reach that goal. Others may reach it the first quarter of 2006. I still have not seen any info from the IRS as to the tax credit amount for each model of hybrid. It is all speculation from what I have read.
Can you refer me to a source for that tax credit comment...How does the Gov know who buys the first 60,000 vehicles...I believe the whole idea of some getting the Tax credit and others not ...simply based on if they were one of the first 60,000 buyers is totally wacky....
"That point WILL BE REACHED only when all the talk about the "hybrid premium" goes away."
Again, not the point. I think it has been shown (several times) that if one looks ONLY at economics, there is a hybrid premium. And IMO this will be the case for a long time. But I've heard many in here talking about all the other, valid reasons for buying a hybrid. Fine, I can certainly accept those reasons.
But those other reasons for buying a hybrid are there whether the government is offering a rebate or not. The essential point of my question stands - would sales dry up if the rebates were not present?
Personally, I say "no". Sales would still be strong. How many hybrid owners here in the Townhall (or other hybrid owners you know) would have bought their hybrid even without a rebate? I'm fairly certain that YOU certainly would have purchased a hybrid without a rebate. So, if sales would still be strong without the rebates, tell me again why are American taxpayers paying for something which is not needed?
Have you considered the negative implications of a rebate program? I've talked to several anti-hybrid folks who are convinced that the ONLY reason many people buy them is for the rebate and that hybrids simply CAN'T compete if the rebate went away. Do you feel these folks are correct? I don't. I think hybrids can and WILL sell well even if/when the rebate program goes away.
Why not think ...Midsize....Prius is a midsized car....The fact it has the ADVANTAGE of the electric motor that works with the Gas motor...Is little different from a car having a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engine...
If the Federal support of Schools (not really allowed in the Constitution) were stopped (It has gone up 100% since Bush took office) would Education for our kids be worse?...I doubt it.
I think incentives for Hybrids will be stopped soon...It was just meant to prime the pump....With these cars all on back order it is hard to believe that an incentive is needed....SO IF YOU ARE INTERESTED BUY NOW.
WOW thanks for the info, I didn't realize the government was trying to help. I just hope it doesn't affect their mass transportation program where they were going to put mono-rails, electric trains and commuter buses in every city to reduce the dependence on foreign oil.
Since the government is concerned about "CLEANER, GREENER" does that mean they are getting rid of all the governent contruction using those behemoth diesel road graders, trucks, etc. ?
Anyway thanks again for the info about the government helping users defray cost and going "GREEN"
I am Canadian and can say that tax incentives played no part in my purchasing decision as there are none here. The Lexus 400h is even more expensive here than in the US after adjusting for the exchange rate.
I bought my 400h before the high gas prices hit. Performance, luxury, quality, and hybrid novelty were my main motivating factors. Performance wise the 400h matches the BMW X5, the Volvo XC90, and the Mercedes. I think it equals or bests them in luxury, quality and convenience (but probably not off-road capability if that matters). The advertised mileage for these other SUVs are all around the 15 L/100km city and 10 hwy mark. My REAL WORLD experience with my 400h is 10 city and 9 hwy. Oddly, I am typically a lead-footed driver but driving my Lexus has me tweaking my driving habits in order to get maximum mileage. There is something inherently satisfying about being able to drive long stretches of road and seeing that you are burning NO gas. When you think about having gained that ability from regenerative braking and coasting you realize that you are the proud owner of an engineering marvel. That the vehicle is able to accomplish this seemlessly and quietly as to be nearly invisible, is icing on the cake.
This "cool" factor to me is worth the price premium alone before you factor in $s saved at the pump.
I will be reporting in a few months how the 400h measures up to a Canadian winter.
As others have said. The premium cost of the hybrid models will take some time (and miles) to recover. For me, I drive less than 10,000 miles per year. If I buy a Civic Hybrid that gets 50 MPG, that means 200 gallons. If I buy the standard Civic that gets 40 MPG, that means 250 gallons. So I save 50 gallons or $150 at $3 per gallon. So if I pay a $3000 premium for the Hybrid Civic, it would take me 20 years to recover the incremental cost. But this disregards the following. The hybrid is cool! I stop less often for gas. I generate fewer greenhouse gasses. I use less fossil fuel. I get to give the oil companies the raspberries and skip every fifth fill up. That's worth a couple thousand bucks in itself.
Darn if it had only come with a 6-speed. I just looked at the money I spent last month on gas ARG! $353.93 last month ( about 2900 miles) I could almost buy a Prius free
Michael: My first source was the Wall Street Journal, they had an indepth article a few months ago when new energy bill was passed. I dont have that in front of me, and rather than pay the WSJ for their online info i googled the tax incentive for hybrid cars and found info from hybridcars.com and something called the Hybrid Center. http://go.ucsusa.org/hybridcenter/incentives.cfm
On August 8, President Bush signed a comprehensive energy bill into law. Included were new tax credits for advanced vehicle technologies ranging from $250 to $3,400 depending on the vehicle's level of fuel economy improvement. For a limited time starting in Jan 2006 a Toyota Prius will qualify for a tax credit of $3,150; a Lexus rx 400h has a credit of $2,200, as does the Highlander Hybrid. Twelve hybrids qualify for credits i picked three for an example. These credits will be available beginning on Jan 1, 2006 and will be available thru Dec 31, 2010 altho they will expire earlier for most hybrids. THE FULL TAX CREDITS will be available untill a MANUFACTURER reaches 60,000 vehicles sold.
Once a manufacturer has sold 60,000 vehicles, a one year 'phase out' will begin AFTER the next complete calendar quarter, 50% of the credit will be available for that manufacturer's hybrids in the first two quarters of the phaseout period,and 25% in the final two quarters.
I cannot find any information on how they will account for the sales date of the vehicles and what credit applies to whom, obviously only the manufacturer and the dealer will know what car is sold on what date.
The federal law is part of a comprehensive bill that mandates energy savings in federal buildings , credits for ethenal use and a whole raft of new incentives across the board. Many states are also offering rebates or tax incentives on top of the federal plan for hybrids. This is all i know right now, i hope it helps.
"Remember the tax credit for hybrids in 2006 was designed to favor american and manufacturers who produce these cars in lower numbers than Toyota does. Only the first 60,000 units of a model will qualify for the credit."
Not quite true.
1. All buyers of a hybrid brand (not a model) will receive the tax credit up until the first 60,000 vehicles of that brand are sold (such as Toyotas). All Toyota hybrids will count against the 60K.
2. The tax credits continue for the full quarter year after the 60K is reached. For example, if Toytoa sold 60K hybrids in January of 2005, all Toyota hybrids delivered to a buyer by June 30th would qualify for the full tax credit.
4. The tax credit continues, but at decreased levels, for 1 year after the quarter in which the 60K was reached. For 6 months, it is 50%, thereafter 25%.
Not to put too fine a point on it, stevedebi, however Toyota will sell at least 120,000 Prius hybrids alone next year and when you add in the 400h and HH sales(not to mention the new camry and tacoma truck hybrids) it is clear that not all of their customers will be allowed rebates, and some will not get the full rebate of the first 60K. This law with the 60K cap favors american producers who dont have as many hybrids to sell. Their vehicles will qualify for the largest rebate over the longest period of time simply because they sell fewer. The 'phase out' period begins at the next complete calendar quarter after 60K has been reached. It seems to me that there is a gap there in time where no tax credits may be allowed.
The bottom line is tax credits or not people will purchase the hybrid that makes the most sense for them. Ford is using warmed over Toyota technology in the Escape and it shows. Nissan is using Toyota technology in the new Altima Hybrid, im sure it wont be the latest generation product. Toyota owns 800 patents on the Hybrid Synergy Drive system and it makes it a huge problem for other mfg to start from scratch and not infringe on toyota. Probably the europeans will come closer to their own version with a diesel electric hybrid.
I own a rx 400h and am very happy. It is the first non american car i have ever owned in the nine i have purchased in my driving career. I want to support American products, i sell them for a living, however my last ford 'exploder' needed a new engine, transmission, 4x4 clutch, door locks, door handle, and tires all before 60,000 miles. Ford paid for all of it 100%, including the rental cars, but how was i ever going to trust that vehicle out of warranty?
"Not to put too fine a point on it, stevedebi, however Toyota will sell at least 120,000 Prius hybrids alone next year and when you add in the 400h and HH sales(not to mention the new camry and tacoma truck hybrids) it is clear that not all of their customers will be allowed rebates, and some will not get the full rebate of the first 60K."
Sorry, that is simply not true. If Toyota produced all 120,000 Prius before June 30, 2006, every Prius buyer would get the rebate. It is based on the calendar quarter year of purchase. Until the first 60,000 units are made, everyone gets a full credit. In the quarter year following the 60,000 units, everyone gets a full credit. Hence the full tax credit cannot last less than 1/2 of 2006 - all Hybrids sold in the first two quarters will fall under one of the two above circumstances.
Everyone purchasing any Toyota Hybrid (eligible for the rebate) in the first 1/2 of 2006 will get the full rebate.
>This law with the 60K cap favors american producers who dont have as many hybrids to sell. Their vehicles will qualify for the largest rebate over the longest period of time simply because they sell fewer.
I dont follow this logic at all for several reasons. Its why I wrote to the NYT about their article which stated the same conclusion.
A) 60000 veh is 60000 no matter how long it takes for each mfg to 'expire' their quota. It may very well take DC 10+ yrs at the rate they're going. After the initial 60K units each mfg has a one year phase out period. This is the only period where I can see a GM or Ford might find a loophole ( but so could Toyota ) to take advantage of possibly selling WAY more than 60K units; e.g. GM 'expires' its initial 60K in March of '07 but is ramped up to sell 200K units over the following 12 month phaseout period. This is pure speculation only on how a domestic mfg might have an advantage.
For sure Toyota will 'expire' its quota by Sept '06... just about the time the HSD Camry comes on line. I still dont see any advantage to the domestic mfgs.
Ford has a true Hybrid or two but GM has a 'wannabe' and DC (?). Those who take the tax credit on a Silverado ( buwahahahaha ) should be embarrassed. Using the tax credit on a Silverado 'wastes' some of GM's precious 60K initial quota units. The Escape and it's brothers will be used up by the end of '06 if Ford can meet the projected demand of 50-70K units.
BIG disadvantage for GM, neutra for Ford, DC (?)
C) Toyota/Honda/Ford/Nissan(?) buyers can take the credit this year in todays dollars.. not down the road in deflated dollars. Advantage: Prius/Civic buyers ( Camry / Altima ? TBD ) Less so: Accord, RX400H, Highlander, Escape Disadvantage: GM / DC loyalists
I have to salute your RX400H purchase. I purchased a Highlander 18 mo's ago but in retrospect should have waited - and I work at a Toyota dealership. LOL. Hopefully I will eke in under the wire next year when I replace my '00 Camry by either a Prius or HSD Camry
kdhspyder: the highlander hybrids are in such short supply it would have been difficult for even you to get one, unless you would settle for a 2wd that is in lower demand. I imagine you got a good price on ur highlander and have a good trade in value. Highlander is being redesigned for 2006 and you would be purchasing the older style as a hybrid, its ready for some updating so dont feel bad. The HSD Camry should be much more fuel efficient than he 400h so there is an advantage in waiting.
Absolutely...They are getting rid of that big gas Diesel eathing road equipment...Have decided to use Illigals with shovels.
When mass transet leaves congested roads because they eat up the money for roads and nobody rides mass transet except in the Big eastern cities....It does contribute to Dirty Air and excess fuel usage as people sit on freeways waiting to get moving at 15 MPH.
If you do a lot of your driving in city...You will not get 40MPG in that Civic ..Stop and go kill the milage of all gas only engines...My guess is the civic would drop down to between 20-25 in city.
Why not allow vehicles that get 45mpg or better to also qualify(TDI/Fit/possible others?) What would happen if a gasoline vehicle came out that got 80mpg??
Except SULEV is by definition an alternate fuel vehicle in most of the U.S. - catch 22. Otherwise, the TDI with the cleaner low-sulfur fuel coming next year would qualify easily.
That's why I ditched my diesel car. I saw this coming and now I pay .50 cents less per gallon for fuel (more or less....sometimes it's only .30 less).
So right now, in California anyway, if you switched from a diesel car getting 30 mpg to a gas car getting 30 mpg, the price difference instantly gives you about 15% boost in miles per gallon (if you spend the same total amount of money on fuel).
This topic is for folks to post about why they bought a hybrid. It is not for debating the different issues associated with hybrids. We have specific topics for most everything that can come up. We simply can't go into everything in every topic.
The biggest reason for selecting my Civic Hybrid with a manual transmission was for the economy.
I drive 80-90 miles on a daily basis, and at the time of the purchase, I calculated that the break-even point was after 2-3 years of ownership. Now that the fuel price has increased 50%, the resale value of the car has gone up (San Francisco Bay Area) and I have already recouped the additional expense in the 18 months that I've owned it.
On my regular commute route, which is 75% freeway, and 25% city / congested freeway, I regularly average over 50 miles per gallon at the speed limit. It is not unusual to do 52-55 miles per gallon on rural roads and freeways.
Of course, there was a less rational reason, which was to support technological innovation which would have an important impact on our society. I particularly liked the simplicity and the higher cost effectiveness (more fuel saved / cost) of the Honda IMA system over Toyota's system.
Honda's IMA system has been improved for 06. Unfortunately there is no more manual transmission. It will be interesting to see real world mileage figures. I'm sure we'll see some posts within three weeks or so.
Comments
niche- b. A special area of demand for a product or service
At this time, hybrids are a niche.
Let's try to keep from going all over the place as much as possible. Thanks!
How is the response from clients when you take them to look at property in the Prius? I don't think anyone believed me when I told them $29,700 was the going price in San Diego for the #6 Prius. San Diego residents get gouged for a lot of stuff. It is America's most beautiful city, I guess that could be the reason. And the best weather
I thought about it last night when I was trying to sleep and I have a design for HSD-M if Toyota is interested. I figured out how HSD-M can support a 6-speed manual transmission. And then I can buy one:)
YMMV,
MidCow
In an age when virtually everyone says government spending is out of control, could this be an area where government spending is not needed? Or are you guys of the opinion that hybrids simply can't compete in the mainstream market without government support?
They have to do with :
1. Helping owners defray the extra costs of the hybrids over a comparable gas model, and
2. Helping encourage people to driver CLEANER, GREENER cars.
Sure hybrid demand is on a high right now. But as a hybrid advocate and owner myself, I can assure you that was not always the case. First generation Prius cars and the Honda Insight were not in huge demand in 1999-2002 - they were kinda small and quirky and underpowered and were only wanted by the greenest of the green tree huggers and the few techies who wanted to try the new technology.
The incentives have helped the Hybrid sales numbers immensely, and that is good for everyone - cleaner cars on the road, more R&D money to the Hybrid car makers, and the hybrids are now in almost every car maker's future plans.
All those reasons are good ones, and the result benefits us all.
That's the point: they should be.
The question is this - if there were no rebates, would fewer hybrids be sold? If the answer is 'yes', does this mean that hybrids have trouble competing with non-hybrids in an open market?
If the answer is 'no', then the rebates are completely unnecessary. Toyota/Honda/etc. will continue to sell every hybrid they pump out.
I'm not talking about past history and the role of rebates on the sale of hybrids. I'm talking about NOW and the continuance of a rebate program. The reasons you list (Help owner defray the extra costs and help encourage people to drive cleaner/greener cars) would still apply 10 years from now even with millions of hybrids on the road. So, at point do you cease the rebate program?
Personally, I think you cease rebates when consumer demand says the rebates are not needed to make sales.
That point has not been reached.
That point WILL BE REACHED only when all the talk about the "hybrid premium" goes away.
As long as mainstream news stories keep saying over and over like a broken record "Hybrids not worth the money" and "hybrids save gas, not money" and articles like that, then the average uneducated consumer is going to eliminate hybrids from consideration out of hand.
Toyota's bossman has issued a command to the engineers - "Cut hybrid costs in half." When that effort is successful, and hybrid costs to the buying public are in line with comparable gasoline-only cars, THEN we should stop the tax incentives.
Actually the rebates will go away when a certain amount of each brand is sold. Some companies may never reach that goal. Others may reach it the first quarter of 2006. I still have not seen any info from the IRS as to the tax credit amount for each model of hybrid. It is all speculation from what I have read.
Can you refer me to a source for that tax credit comment...How does the Gov know who buys the first 60,000 vehicles...I believe the whole idea of some getting the Tax credit and others not ...simply based on if they were one of the first 60,000 buyers is totally wacky....
Again, not the point. I think it has been shown (several times) that if one looks ONLY at economics, there is a hybrid premium. And IMO this will be the case for a long time. But I've heard many in here talking about all the other, valid reasons for buying a hybrid. Fine, I can certainly accept those reasons.
But those other reasons for buying a hybrid are there whether the government is offering a rebate or not. The essential point of my question stands - would sales dry up if the rebates were not present?
Personally, I say "no". Sales would still be strong. How many hybrid owners here in the Townhall (or other hybrid owners you know) would have bought their hybrid even without a rebate? I'm fairly certain that YOU certainly would have purchased a hybrid without a rebate. So, if sales would still be strong without the rebates, tell me again why are American taxpayers paying for something which is not needed?
Have you considered the negative implications of a rebate program? I've talked to several anti-hybrid folks who are convinced that the ONLY reason many people buy them is for the rebate and that hybrids simply CAN'T compete if the rebate went away. Do you feel these folks are correct? I don't. I think hybrids can and WILL sell well even if/when the rebate program goes away.
Why not think ...Midsize....Prius is a midsized car....The fact it has the ADVANTAGE of the electric motor that works with the Gas motor...Is little different from a car having a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engine...
I think incentives for Hybrids will be stopped soon...It was just meant to prime the pump....With these cars all on back order it is hard to believe that an incentive is needed....SO IF YOU ARE INTERESTED BUY NOW.
Since the government is concerned about "CLEANER, GREENER" does that mean they are getting rid of all the governent contruction using those behemoth diesel road graders, trucks, etc. ?
Anyway thanks again for the info about the government helping users defray cost and going "GREEN"
YMMV,
MidCow
I bought my 400h before the high gas prices hit. Performance, luxury, quality, and hybrid novelty were my main motivating factors. Performance wise the 400h matches the BMW X5, the Volvo XC90, and the Mercedes. I think it equals or bests them in luxury, quality and convenience (but probably not off-road capability if that matters). The advertised mileage for these other SUVs are all around the 15 L/100km city and 10 hwy mark. My REAL WORLD experience with my 400h is 10 city and 9 hwy. Oddly, I am typically a lead-footed driver but driving my Lexus has me tweaking my driving habits in order to get maximum mileage. There is something inherently satisfying about being able to drive long stretches of road and seeing that you are burning NO gas. When you think about having gained that ability from regenerative braking and coasting you realize that you are the proud owner of an engineering marvel. That the vehicle is able to accomplish this seemlessly and quietly as to be nearly invisible, is icing on the cake.
This "cool" factor to me is worth the price premium alone before you factor in $s saved at the pump.
I will be reporting in a few months how the 400h measures up to a Canadian winter.
In the meantime, I give the car a :shades:
But this disregards the following.
The hybrid is cool!
I stop less often for gas.
I generate fewer greenhouse gasses.
I use less fossil fuel.
I get to give the oil companies the raspberries and skip every fifth fill up. That's worth a couple thousand bucks in itself.
On August 8, President Bush signed a comprehensive energy bill into law. Included were new tax credits for advanced vehicle technologies ranging from $250 to $3,400 depending on the vehicle's level of fuel economy improvement. For a limited time starting in Jan 2006 a Toyota Prius will qualify for a tax credit of $3,150; a Lexus rx 400h has a credit of $2,200, as does the Highlander Hybrid. Twelve hybrids qualify for credits i picked three for an example. These credits will be available beginning on Jan 1, 2006 and will be available thru Dec 31, 2010 altho they will expire earlier for most hybrids. THE FULL TAX CREDITS will be available untill a MANUFACTURER reaches 60,000 vehicles sold.
Once a manufacturer has sold 60,000 vehicles, a one year 'phase out' will begin AFTER the next complete calendar quarter, 50% of the credit will be available for that manufacturer's hybrids in the first two quarters of the phaseout period,and 25% in the final two quarters.
I cannot find any information on how they will account for the sales date of the vehicles and what credit applies to whom, obviously only the manufacturer and the dealer will know what car is sold on what date.
The federal law is part of a comprehensive bill that mandates energy savings in federal buildings , credits for ethenal use and a whole raft of new incentives across the board. Many states are also offering rebates or tax incentives on top of the federal plan for hybrids. This is all i know right now, i hope it helps.
Not quite true.
1. All buyers of a hybrid brand (not a model) will receive the tax credit up until the first 60,000 vehicles of that brand are sold (such as Toyotas). All Toyota hybrids will count against the 60K.
2. The tax credits continue for the full quarter year after the 60K is reached. For example, if Toytoa sold 60K hybrids in January of 2005, all Toyota hybrids delivered to a buyer by June 30th would qualify for the full tax credit.
4. The tax credit continues, but at decreased levels, for 1 year after the quarter in which the 60K was reached. For 6 months, it is 50%, thereafter 25%.
Hope this helps.
The bottom line is tax credits or not people will purchase the hybrid that makes the most sense for them. Ford is using warmed over Toyota technology in the Escape and it shows. Nissan is using Toyota technology in the new Altima Hybrid, im sure it wont be the latest generation product. Toyota owns 800 patents on the Hybrid Synergy Drive system and it makes it a huge problem for other mfg to start from scratch and not infringe on toyota. Probably the europeans will come closer to their own version with a diesel electric hybrid.
I own a rx 400h and am very happy. It is the first non american car i have ever owned in the nine i have purchased in my driving career. I want to support American products, i sell them for a living, however my last ford 'exploder' needed a new engine, transmission, 4x4 clutch, door locks, door handle, and tires all before 60,000 miles. Ford paid for all of it 100%, including the rental cars, but how was i ever going to trust that vehicle out of warranty?
Sorry, that is simply not true. If Toyota produced all 120,000 Prius before June 30, 2006, every Prius buyer would get the rebate. It is based on the calendar quarter year of purchase. Until the first 60,000 units are made, everyone gets a full credit. In the quarter year following the 60,000 units, everyone gets a full credit. Hence the full tax credit cannot last less than 1/2 of 2006 - all Hybrids sold in the first two quarters will fall under one of the two above circumstances.
Everyone purchasing any Toyota Hybrid (eligible for the rebate) in the first 1/2 of 2006 will get the full rebate.
I dont follow this logic at all for several reasons. Its why I wrote to the NYT about their article which stated the same conclusion.
A) 60000 veh is 60000 no matter how long it takes for each mfg to 'expire' their quota. It may very well take DC 10+ yrs at the rate they're going. After the initial 60K units each mfg has a one year phase out period. This is the only period where I can see a GM or Ford might find a loophole ( but so could Toyota ) to take advantage of possibly selling WAY more than 60K units; e.g. GM 'expires' its initial 60K in March of '07 but is ramped up to sell 200K units over the following 12 month phaseout period. This is pure speculation only on how a domestic mfg might have an advantage.
For sure Toyota will 'expire' its quota by Sept '06... just about the time the HSD Camry comes on line. I still dont see any advantage to the domestic mfgs.
BIG disadvantage for GM, neutra for Ford, DC (?)
C) Toyota/Honda/Ford/Nissan(?) buyers can take the credit this year in todays dollars.. not down the road in deflated dollars.
Advantage: Prius/Civic buyers ( Camry / Altima ? TBD )
Less so: Accord, RX400H, Highlander, Escape
Disadvantage: GM / DC loyalists
I have to salute your RX400H purchase. I purchased a Highlander 18 mo's ago but in retrospect should have waited - and I work at a Toyota dealership. LOL. Hopefully I will eke in under the wire next year when I replace my '00 Camry by either a Prius or HSD Camry
FWIW
kdhspyder
Absolutely...They are getting rid of that big gas Diesel eathing road equipment...Have decided to use Illigals with shovels.
When mass transet leaves congested roads because they eat up the money for roads and nobody rides mass transet except in the Big eastern cities....It does contribute to Dirty Air and excess fuel usage as people sit on freeways waiting to get moving at 15 MPH.
I am here for you....
If you do a lot of your driving in city...You will not get 40MPG in that Civic ..Stop and go kill the milage of all gas only engines...My guess is the civic would drop down to between 20-25 in city.
Any vehicle that achieves *BOTH* a minimum of 45 MPG and SULEV could qualify.
JOHN
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/diesel3e_20051003.htm
So right now, in California anyway, if you switched from a diesel car getting 30 mpg to a gas car getting 30 mpg, the price difference instantly gives you about 15% boost in miles per gallon (if you spend the same total amount of money on fuel).
What the heck are you talking about?
That emission rating, like the others, are based on measurements of NOx, CO, HC, and PM quantities.
Fuel has nothing to do with it. You can use whatever type you want as long as the PPM for each doesn't exceed the maximum.
JOHN
discussion.
All the posts here debating the battery issues have been moved to the Hybrids: The Great Battery Debate discussion.
I drive 80-90 miles on a daily basis, and at the time of the purchase, I calculated that the break-even point was after 2-3 years of ownership. Now that the fuel price has increased 50%, the resale value of the car has gone up (San Francisco Bay Area) and I have already recouped the additional expense in the 18 months that I've owned it.
On my regular commute route, which is 75% freeway, and 25% city / congested freeway, I regularly average over 50 miles per gallon at the speed limit. It is not unusual to do 52-55 miles per gallon on rural roads and freeways.
Of course, there was a less rational reason, which was to support technological innovation which would have an important impact on our society. I particularly liked the simplicity and the higher cost effectiveness (more fuel saved / cost) of the Honda IMA system over Toyota's system.
Thanks to both of you that does clear up the issue for me...