VW Jetta TDI

ruking1

Early real (aka, anecedotal as if this is a BAD thing) world figures are starting to be posted. (09 MPG's , www.tdiclub.com)

Seems like a slight to no loss off the real world 03 Jetta TDI history. This is HUGE, as it is a BIG increase in hp/torque and there is the DSG/6 speed manual differences.

olive4

I just bought my 2009 Jetta TDI and it came with 2 electronic keys and one non-electronic valet key. I'd assume this is standard for all 2009 models.

bpeebles

VWs always should come with 2 electronic and one 'valet' key. This has been true for many years.

If one is purchasing a used VW ... you should insist on getting ALL these keys because replacing them is costly. (subtract at least $150 per key from the asking price.)

morin2

Thanks to Both! Great that a valet key continues with 2009s.

Have you ever had duplicates made of the valet key? It should be less costly than the e-key, right? It would be nice to attach one under the car with an electric cable tie should I somehow lose the key during a kayak roll or re-entry.

littlerhody

Ok so new Jetta TDI owners are going into their 2nd or 3rd week of ownership. What are you seeing for mileage? I just fueled mine from an empty tank for the first time. Both the instrument reading and my math based on gallons of fuel resulted in a 39 MPG result. This was mixed driving (probably 65% hwy, 35% city) with the 6 speed standard.
Any other findings?

rodneyh1

I've had mine 2 weeks and about 800 miles. It's the 6 sp manual. First tank was a somewhat dissapointing 38.7 mpg with about 75% highway / 25% city. I'll withold judgement for at least another tank or 2. The dealer filled the 1st tank, and I don't know whether they topped it off or not.

I'm running B99 from a ruputable source (that 1st tank was petro-diesel from the dealer), but will switch to B50 for the winter months. I've been running this for an extended period in my '86 Jetta with absolutely no modifications and absolutely no problems.

There is a long waiting list (couple months for the sedan, and about 6 months for the wagon), but I was in the right place at the right time. I walked into Volkswagon of Salem (Oregon) to test drive their white demo on Friday afternoon and picked up mine Saturday morning when it rolled in. They charged me exactly MSRP plus title fees for a total price of $22,812. I'm pretty sure I'll get $1,300 back from the fed, for a total price of $21,512.

Rod

vwinva

Is that credit firm or just a rumor? All I have seen on the IRS site refers to hybrids only.

bpeebles

I realize you are refering to the new-design engine however 39MPG is not unexpected... yours is a brand-new engine and the rings are not sealing against the cylinders yet. Historically, it takes over 10,000 miles (of concense break-in driving) to start to see measurable increases in the cylinder-pressures. This directly relates to more power and increased MPG.

My MPG did not "level off" until about 60,000 - 70,000 miles, I have a spreadsheet of every drop of fuel pumped into my tank. I now enjoy a lifetime AVERAGE of 50.00 MPG. (between 700 and 800 miles per tank of fuel)

You should be concentrating on specific driving-habits that lead to a reliable-economic engine. Breaking in a TURBOCHARGED DIESEL engine which is designed to run for over 300,000 miles is not the same as a cheep gasoline engine designed to only run for 100,000 miles. Be patient...

gagrice

Here are the figures on the VW and Mercedes tax credits:

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=157632,00.html

malmouza

The way taxe credit work, is you won't receive $1300 check when you file your taxes; but you'll be able to deduct $1300 from the total owed amount to the IRS; for example, let say in your 2008 taxes you owe the IRS $1000; in this case you'll be able to deduct $1000 from the $1300 taxe credit allowed by the IRS for the purchase of fuel efficient vehicle. But you'll not get a check of the difference. I hope this help.

gagrice

The only thing that would keep you from getting the tax credit if you paid at least $1300 in taxes would be AMT (alternate minimum tax). If you paid less than $1300 in taxes you probably cannot afford a new car.

littlerhody

I am not sure I agree. Whether you have paid (witheld or estimated taxes) or you owe taxes you should still get the full credit (assuming your tax liability is over $1300). The credit will either be in the form of an increase in refund or reduction in the amount due.

littlerhody

How about some tips on how to break in a turbo diesel

gagrice

You are exactly right. I do not think he understands our tax system very well. If you paid in the exact amount of your liability and then claim the Jetta TDI you will get a check from the IRS for $1300.

sebring95

The Alternative Motor Vehicle Credit (AMVC) is a non-refundable credit, so if your total tax liablity is less than the credit, you will get zero benefit. I was rather surprised by the lack of this information in any of the documents, but a quick look at the form: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8910.pdf will prove this is true. Take a look at part III lines 13, 14, 15. Line 15 basically is the total of your tax liability and if that number is zero or less, you don't get a tax credit. This has nothing to do with how much you've paid in via estimates or employer withholding, it's based on tax liability. It would be possible for someone even with decent income to not realize this credit if they had a few kids, alot of itemized deductions, childcare expense, and education credits....all of which come out of your tax liability before calculating the allowable AMVC. It's not like we're generally talking about expnsive vehicles that qualify for these credits. AMT will not be effected by this credit, as it comes out after AMT is added.

gagrice

This little clause caught a lot of people by surprise that expected to get a Tax Credit on their hybrids. If you paid AMT last year, you will probably pay for 2008. Congress talked about changing the law. With increased wages 1000s more are getting caught in that AMT trap.

If your vehicle was used only for personal
purposes during the year, and you owe
alternative minimum tax (for example, Form
1040, line 45, is more than zero), do not
complete Form 8910 because your allowable credit will
be zero.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8910.pdf

ruking1

The way my accountant explained it to me was you can probably take advantage of that tax credit if you can not afford to buy the vehicle in question. :lemon:

So really in PLAIN IRS speak (yes oxymoronic) , what are the AGI ranges in which the Prius tax credits can be applied?

sebring95

Ooooo, good catch. That'll teach me to skim.....

kyfdx

If you have zero tax liability for the year, please introduce me to your accountant..

malmouza

I agree with you, because Gagrice does not understand our tax system at all. This is why people need to go to an accountant to get some explanation about all kind of taxes. Never assume anything. People they saw the headlines about tax credit for diesel cars, and they assumed that they are getting a check from the IRS automatically when they buy diesel. Thanks Sebrin95 for clarifying this confusion for people.

sebring95

Happens more than you think, particularly self-employed individuals. Big depreciation deduction for capital purchases can wipe-out your net income.

ruking1

..."How about some tips on how to break in a turbo diesel "...

Actually this is more important that most folks think. It should really payoff to UNDERSTAND the TDI workings and stay within the correct operating parameters. While I got great fuel mileage almost from the start, do not expect best fuel mileage (aka full cylinder pressure (550 psi) till app 30,000 to 60,000 miles. If after you read the articles and have any questions, I'd be happy to discuss whatever with you. The attitude to have ( driving the diesel) is to drive it slightly to more aggressively than a gasser economy car.

Anymore as much ribbing as the Japanese oems take about being appliance-like, REAL appliances have long since experience break downs almost exponentially quicker than that stereo typical MAYTAG commercial. VW takes a different philosophy in that they make no secret of the fact the car REQUIRES maintenance. This of course works AGAINST them (VW's lousy "appliance" ratings) , but at the same time if you get a good one it works FOR (YOU) them.

One might want to check out www.tdiclub.com and do a search for either diesel engine break in or author Drivbiwire.

This author is actually one of the superb mechanical TDI "gurus" /TB/WP wizards in addition to his real day job. I have personally watched him do app 18 TB/WP changes at various GTG's.

I broke in my TDI using what I thought to be some of the principles outlined. I have had the chance/s to ask him whatever questions I have had over the years and mileage of TDI ownership (5/6 years 110,000 miles).

Two acid visual tests passed @ the 100,000 mile timing belt and water pump interval were the lack of carbon sludge build up in the intake AND little to no camshaft wear (original tool markings) with 20,000 to 25,000 miles OCI's with the avg being @ 15.6k per OCI. :shades: While I have not had my clutch out for visual inspection, barring catastrophic circumstances, I swag the clutch will be good to go to at least the min of 400,000 miles. More is better but even I realize that woud be gravy or icing on the cake.

My goal is a min of 500,000 miles (3 more or total of 4 belt changes)

malmouza

Car that last more than 200,000 miles, is not unusual in this era. The advancement in the automotive technology allowed manufacturer to build engines that last forever, assuming you take good care of it. Any gasoline or diesel, or CNG, car engine can last more than 300,000 miles, with good maintenance. But the problem is not the engine, it is the car. Your car does not drive on smooth carpet with no dust or salt, from rain or snow; it does drive on ugly highway, with a lot of potholes, a lot of bumps, and uneven pavements. These things kills the suspension, the rubber joins, the steering joins, the sun fade the color of the plastic on the dash, and loosen the plastic fastener, which lead to squeaking and rattling during driving; some of the performance and the balance of the car will be lost. And worst thing old cars have tendency that their airbags don’t deploy during an accident because the sensor had been eaten up by the harmful deposit of salt and dirt. Only an idiot buy an old car with 120,000 miles on it for $13,000, like the Jettas that are sold on Ebay. Those buyers they lessen and read some of the ignorance that other people are writing on the internet. Believe it or not things die eventually; this is how nature is orchestrated. If the manufacturer knows that a car is lasting more than they want to, they would have discontinued that model. It does not play in their favor, because in that case they need to close the factory for 10 years. :shades:

ruking1

The more you give into buying disposable products, don't be surprised when they become.... more disposable. For my .02 cents I like to put it into longer lasting vehicle products. All those things you mentioned can be/ and are routinely replaced replaced.

gagrice

Only an idiot buy an old car with 120,000 miles on it for $13,000, like the Jettas that are sold on Ebay.

I prefer not to call people names I disagree with. You should be able to see by the prices on eBay for diesel VWs that there IS a strong market. People would like to save on fuel and not end up with a throwaway hybrid in 10 years. I will NEVER EVER again by a hybrid. So Diesel is my only option for good highway mileage in a decent sized vehicle. Sorry Charlie not everyone has your limited view of the world. You will just have to accept that.

watkinst

Good thread the tax credit info is good. Thx

Regarding life span even if the engine goes 300K the rest of the car like all cars needs TLC at some point. Even the newer gas cars will run 200K but the rest of em start falling appart. I'm currently doing a wheel bearing- shocks and drive line boot replacement on my 2001 Subaru with 150,000 miles on it. Engine is the last of my worries. Clutch was replaced at 140,000 though we do pull trailers with the subaru dealer said 180K on the clutch was about the upper end of what they generally see for clutch wear.

My main interest in diesel is one I had a 505 TD way back when great car and fun to drive. Great milege for a fairly large midsize heavy car at that time also.

Milege is king and the TDI's are really the best way to go when it comes to long term ownership and great milege. Wife has a 2001 Jetta with 50,000 on it looks new - rattles like an old 1970's Ford and burns oil that it doesn't leak. So I'm not a big fan of VW and hope we see non VW diesel's soon!

ruking1

Actually this thread triggered a thought that probably should be said about Japanese OEM's. Let me work back wards. In times past, Japanese car owners had to change their motors (required by pollution laws/rules and regulations) at app 40,000 to 50,000 miles. Can you imagine what we all would think about Japanese cars if that were required in the N/A markets?

On the opposite end, folks think it positively weird the VW Jetta TDI motor has a design life of 25,000 hours. Or at 50 mph math conversion puts that @ 1,250,000 miles.

bpeebles

Another way to look at breaking in a turbodiesel engine is to think about "keeping the pressure on". In other words, ACCELLERATION...immedatly followed by DECELLERATION.

The ACCELLERATION keeps pressure on the turbocharger seals and the turbocharger keeps PSI pushing into the cylinders which is required by the piston-rings to seal against the sides of the cylinders.

The DECELLERATION frees up the rings to allow them to 'wiggle' on the cylinders and this helps spread oil to cool them from the accelleration process.

For me I helped break in my TDI by climbing briskly up a steep hill (perhaps 2-3 minutes) and then decellerate down the other side. I did this EVERY DAY on the way home from work for several months.

It is also VERY IMPORTANT to realize that the rings should be seated BEFORE the cylinder-walls start to glaze, Once the cylinder-walls glaze, they are sooooo slippery that it is almost impossible to seat the rings.

The basics of the break-in process is equally applicable to any internal-combustion engine. Most oil-burning or low-MPG engines can be traced directly to a poor or non-exestant break-in early in the engine life. (cylinder glaze before ring-seating)

malmouza

I know your stand about Diesel cars; you’re fanatic about them. But let me tell you something, I have been driving diesel for a long time, you in USA you only get one flavor of diesel, I was living in Europe were there is panache of diesel cars and mini-vans; from Italian Fiat, Ritmo, Uno, to the French Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, to VW, Bora, Passat,,,,I drove all of them, and my favorite was Peugeot 205 diesel, this car does not die at all, and it was fairly easy to repair, but best of all it gets 65 MPG. But my point here is that USA is not a market for diesel, government is not helping diesel cause, and Oil companies do not want diesel in USA, and the reason is profit. But Oil companies are fighting a loosing battle at this time because of their greed, they pushed consumer to the edge, and now they are going to start paying the price. People changed their driving habit, and start driving less, buying fuel efficient vehicle, and manufacturer are developing new efficient cars and trucks, they are also developing new alternative energy cars. Consumers will never go back again to the old gas guzzlers vehicles, even if the gas price drops to $2. Imagine if a manufacturer can develop an electric car that does not need recharging for only 50 miles, with price tag of $12,000, how many people will buy this car?? The waiting list will be longer than you can imagine. Talking about Hybrid vehicle, will outlast Diesel, Electric motors do not need any maintenance, like oil burner engine. I have a fan on my desk that has been running for 11 years; it is still running without any issue. My point is the hybrid cars will eventually rule, and US will cut their consumption by 1/3rd in the next 10 years.

gagrice

Imagine if a manufacturer can develop an electric car that does not need recharging for only 50 miles, with price tag of $12,000, how many people will buy this car??

Actually the Xebra will do just about that. Of course it is a very crudely built Chinese vehicle that tops out about 40 MPH. I drove one and was not interested. They cannot sell them. I do not see battery technology advancing to where an EV that will carry 4 in comfort and have a range people want ever selling for under $20k. It is hard to find a golf cart with Lead Acid batteries for $12k. The Prius plug-in or the Volt are going to be around $40k.

There are people on this thread buying a new Jetta TDIs for under $25k. That is the average price for a Prius or a more. If a person really test drives the Jetta TDI and the Prius. Out on the highway. I cannot imagine them buying the Prius unless their driving senses are totally DEAD. The Prius is fine in stop and go city traffic. I would not take one out on the open highway here in Southwestern USA. They get wind whipped all over at highway speeds of 75 MPH. I would be willing to bet on a cross country jaunt at normal highway speeds the Jetta will get better mileage than the Prius. And you will not be a nervous wreck after a driving all day.

ruking1

To be sure an interesting opinion. But it is funny how the CA mandate of 3% (electric cars) just died quietly, right after some oems (notably Ford Ranger, Toyota Rav4) came out with so called EV products. So even those responsible for VOTING for its passage did not load up! This is noteworthy in that MUCH time, political capital and money was spent in its legislative passage.

I have made no secret of the benefits of diesel cars, but on the other hand, I notice you have not even talked about buying a hybrid. I probably have come closer to buying a hybrid (Toyota Prius, Honda Civic hybrid) than you probably have.

Hybrids are even less of the passenger vehicle population than the shrinking passenger diesel population, and this is despite massive advertising and many years. New car diesel sales on the other hand have even been banned by 5 states but yet offerings will probably sell out all they can make.

bpeebles

One -nit- about your last append... the 2009 VW diesel is not banned in those 5 states. In fact, I beleive it meets all emmissions requirments for all 50.1 states.

gagrice

Yes they are selling the Jetta TDI in San Diego as fast as they get off the truck. First time in four years.

ruking1

No real nit/issue as this was written in the past tense. Most know 2009 is the so called 50 state legal diesel. The 2003 WAS " 50 state legal."

blueguydotcom

You are exactly right. I do not think he understands our tax system very well. If you paid in the exact amount of your liability and then claim the Jetta TDI you will get a check from the IRS for $1300.

It makes more sense to try to be about $2600 short on your taxes. That way you'll earn more interest and your $1300 tax credit will offset too. In the end, you'll give the government $1300 in April of 09, instead of handing them that cash over 2008.

ncskibum

I had not really thought much about it, but I am seeing slightly less mpg out of the ULSD. I have dropped to an average of 43 versus 45. I usually only purchase from two stations and only the texaco station posts the cetane rating, which I am not sure of now. I also use power stroke additive on every tank but have seen no real advantage, just a force of habit.

cosmo

An easy no-brainer way for owners of TDI's with DSG's to follow your excellent recommendations is to simply drive in sport mode for the first 1K. In sport mode the DSG will downshift one gear when the accelerator is lifted, and when accelerating the engine will reach higher RPM's before upshifting. This results in some herky-jerky city driving and the fuel economy won't be anything to boast about. I bought my 2006 from a dealer 200 miles distant, and though it is almost a door-to-door freeway drive from the dealer, I drove in sport mode on secondary highways through several small towns coming home. Just don't give in to the urge to floor it in sport mode during the first 1K. I still use sports mode for all freeway driving just to clean out any carbon build up whenever I accelerate.

ruking1

Indeed!

My own interests are DRG's durability/reliability over 100,000 miles.

I was struck by how seamless the transition from automatic transmission it really is. Also one can still "roll one's own" should that be wanted/needed.

bpeebles

Do not forget that DSG xmission is really more like an "automaticly-shifted manual".... NOT an "automatic xmission"

Instead of actually SHIFTING gears... the DSG pre-selects the next gear and then just swaps between one of the 2 clutch-packs to enguage it. SURPRISE! the DSG contains 2 seperate gearboxes each with its own clutch on the engine-side.

The DSG is truly an EVOLUTION in xmission design for road-automobiles. (The F1 racers have been using this design for many years)

blueguydotcom

It is a great system. But as the owner of an Audi with DSG I'm very worried about the day it needs service - and I fear it may be soon (30k miles). There's a distinct feeling of slipping that's becoming more apparent all the time...like the car can't quite move quickly to the next gear.

cosmo

You might check VW tech bulletin 37-06-07 to determine if this describes what you are experiencing with your Audi. VW fault codes are 17100, P0716, 18148, or P1740. Please keep us posted on you DSG.

ruking1

I for one will be following your postings. VW DSG does require recommended scheduled DSG fluid service@ 40,000 miles (I have read). I take it by your post, Audi is @ 30,000 miles.

blueguydotcom

Yes it is just under 30k miles (2006 model purchased in April 2005). I'll talk to my wife about getting her car in for the service bulletin. Such a hassle as San Diego only has one Audi dealership and it's run by the most awful people.

gagrice

San Diego only has one Audi dealership

That is good to know. I was not impressed with the BMW dealer up in Kearney Mesa either. Just waiting on a selection of diesel SUVs.

blueguydotcom

Cunningham in El Cajon is my favorite BMW dealership in this area. I've bought from a three of the BMW dealers around here and only Cunningham did i feel treated me well. And their service team is excellent.

gagrice

I emailed all the dealers about the new X5 diesel. Cunningham was the only one to respond. They called and are going to let me know when they hit the showroom. Plus they are the closest to me in Alpine.

noco_loco

Are folks on the waiting lists for TDI sportswagens seeing any deliveries?
Are folks on the waiting lists for TDI sedans seeing any deliveries?

Are dealers in your area receiving more than 2 vehicles per month?

shrifty

I was on the waiting list for a few weeks now, I should hopefully be able to pick up my TDI sedan this Saturday. It has been in for a week or two now, but I've been out of town since then. Fortunately they held the car for me. It almost seems like they will be receiving about 2 cars per month.

hlcastelo

For those fortunate to own a new TDI, what is the real-world MPG?

Also, would like to know if you are seeing additional dealer mark-ups in your local markets. In South Florida have seen adjustment of $1000 to $2500- not consistent between dealerships.

goldgary1

I am up here in NH. All the dealers on the NH/MA border are charging between 2500-1K over invoice except for one that will sell at invoice only. That dealer is in Nashua. I have one on order there. May have to wait a while for it, but its cheaper than paying over invoice.

I offered to buy one sitting on dealers lot at invoice, but they refused. They seem to be standing firm on over charging. Till supply catches up with demand, then it will be a different story.

Gary