Nearly every new car I've ever had, including the so called "bulletproof" brands, have had something that had to be fixed within the first few thousand miles. Plus I've had recalls on Toyotas that weren't major items but had to be fixed. Give your car some time to settle down.
Think about the build process. It's almost impossible to make something that complex with so many moving parts absolutely perfect.
I currently have a Corolla and am considering a TDI as its replacement, but I have some questions about them.
What was the first year of the high MPG TDI?
How reliable are they (keep in mind the Corolla is as reliable as a Swiss watch)?
How hard are they to start in cold weather, and how long does the engine have to run before they start producing heat from the heater?
How many miles can a TDI be expected to last with a reasonable amount of care? I expect my Corolla to go at least 200K miles, and probably more like 300K. Is it reasonable to expect a TDI to go longer than that because they are a diesel? I've noticed in the price range I've been looking at ($5000-$8000) most of the cars are very high mileage (almost all of them have in excess of 120K miles on them). I was hoping to get something with a bit less miles, What keeps their price so high?
Never owning a diesel, or a VW before, is there anything else I need to consider?
..."How reliable are they (keep in mind the Corolla is as reliable as a Swiss watch)? "...
Now if you said reliable as a battery operated quartz watch either Swiss or Japanese, I would jump in and say go for it. HOWEVER....
A swiss watch really needs a lot of maintenance. (your statement could imply you never had a swiss watch/s or you have had "a" to nothing but swiss watches and are USED to that level of maintenance and repair)
How cold is the weather you will encounter? I have started the car in 20 degree weather and @ altitude (INXS of 6,400 feet) INSTANTLY and with no additives other than the location specific ULSD fuel. If the weather is colder than that, I would say you may want to look at additives such as Power Service (anti gel in this case) Do not buy a diesel for the "fantastic" heaters. You will be highly disappointed. Diesels do not generate NEAR the heat that a gasser does. If you are remotely interested, longer term this is a GOOD thing - shorter term wear a parka..
The newer TDI's have OCI's as high as 30,000 miles vs a normal Corolla @ 3,000/5,000 miles. At the worst 10,000 miles. At 100,000 miles my TDI needed a TB/WP (aka parts R/R and computer tune up). In comparison the Civic needs a TB/WP change (aka parts R/R and computer tune up). @ 105,000 miles.
I think by the prices you are encountering, the question of longevity is being answered.
I think there is a 60/40 chance you will be disappointed, so I would stay with a Corolla/Civic. I say this even as I have a TDI 110,000 miles/Civic 71,000 miles side by side. While both have been highly reliable, the Civic's consumeable items wear much faster. One thing that does NOT show up in the cost equation: do you want a commute car that can handle highway (Civic) or do you want a highway car than can handle commutes (TDI). Obviously if your commute is on highways....
I have been more than satisfied with both. Under the same daily commute, TDI does 48-52 vs Civic 38-42 mpg. SAME driver.
I had the same questions as you. I bought my 2006 TDI (manual) new in July of '07 and it now has 65,000 miles on it. I've had no problems with it. I put on alot of highway miles and consistently average 45 to 50 mpg. There is no issue with starting in cold weather. The biggest drawback is defrosting since letting it sit at idle will not produce heat and that means you're going to drive the first 5 minutes with a windshield that is less than clear. Even after scraping off the frost/ice/snow it will glaze over until heat is produced. I would say that if your main concern is cost of ownership the Toyota would be the way to go. If you factor in the "fun to drive" issue you'll like the TDI.
I have a Passat 1.8T that is outside 24/7. In the winter, I'm not one for idling the engine to warm up the car - it's always "get in, turn the key and go." Even in the dead of winter here in SW Pennsylvania, I'll begin to get heat within a few miles. So the TDI is similar, then? My Passat throws a lot of heat once underway. Does the TDI perform sufficeintly, or are you dependent on the heated seats, even after the car hits operating temps?
We have a 04 Passat TDI and a 06 Jetta TDI. On 10F to -10F mornings both need about five miles of driving to warm up enough to get comfortable heat from the heaters. However, the Jetta has electric elements in the heating system which usually provide enough warmer air to the defroster to keep the windshield clear. When the outside temp is above 10F the Jetta's heater will begin providing heat from the get-go. Once the engines reach normal operating temperature there is no problem with getting enough heat into the cabin.
Diesels are more efficient than gasoline engines; diesels have a lower specific fuel consumption (BSFC in weight of fuel consumed per hour, per unit of engine power developed ) than gasoline engines.
The waste heat output of a diesel engine is much less than the waste heat output of a conventional gasoline engine of the same power, especially at idle. In fact, some diesels are not supposed to be run indefinitely at normal idle, even in warm weather. The engine temp will drift down and down to a level at which excess engine wear occurs. The diesel engined Mercedes Sprinter vans have a so called "high idle" option so that the engine can be run above normal idle for extended periods while stopped in heavy traffic or holding passengers while stopped. This high idle keeps the engine temp in the correct operating range at the expense of higher fuel consumption.
The waste heat from the engine is what is used to heat the passenger compartment. So diesels will not heat the passenger compartment as rapidly as a gasser.
maybe you're not familiar with this technology, VW been producing diesel engines for generations, the majority of Europeans drive diesel cars. you're not getting a car fresh out of the drawing table. In case you wonder diesel is readily available i believe 42% of stations carry diesel in the USA specially stations along the freeways, just make sure to keep paper towels in your trunk the truck drivers are very careless when handling pump nousals, they're mostly slimy, but this car is well worth it. if you end up buying the car know you're not gonna be driving just another basic car as this cars come with lots of features as standard equipment. Good luck.
I am encouraged (but a tad disappointed) the percentage of fuel stations is @ 42%. In 03 when I bought the TDI, it was pegged @ 25% aka 1 in 4 fuel stations. At the time I had absolutely NO issues getting fuel. Being as how the passenger diesel fleet has contracted 33% from less than 3% to 2%, my swag is new TDI owners will have even less issues.
"What was the first year of the high MPG TDI? " At least as far back as 1981... they were built in Pennsylvania (New Stanton) I have some relatives who used to work there.
"How reliable are they" Using the design life-expectancy of the engine (given in hours) and some math (assuming 50MPH average speed)....the TDI engine is rated for at least 300,000 miles. Keep in mind this same basic engine is used in marine applications to move boats over the ocean.
"How hard are they to start in cold weather?" Not hard at all... STARTING is not an issue at all. (My TDI starts just fine at -15F)
"how long does the engine have to run before they start producing heat from the heater?" Depends on many variables. On a cold morning, (-15F) it may take 10-20 miles of driving. HOWEVER, if you turn the heat all the way up... the engine will NEVER EVER come up to temp. because the heater-core can pull more heat out of the engine than it can create.
Never owning a diesel, or a VW before, is there anything else I need to consider? Consider adding diesel-fuel additive at EVERY fillup. There are many benefets including 2-4 more MPG, longer fuelpump life and quieter running.
Also, do not assume the dealership knows how to effectively maintain diesel engines beyond basic stuff. You MUST use special oil which is not readilly available in North America. (I order all my supplies from tdiparts.com)
Unlike Asian automobiles which can be pretty much ignored... VWs are better off when meticulusly maintained per the reccomended schedule.
Best of all.... it is WONDERFUL to be able to travel 700+ miles per tank of fuel!!!!
I think you replied to the wrong post -- mine was just a link to an article published in the Detroit News giving the Jetta TDI a very good review. I already have my TDI and have no trouble finding diesel anywhere in my area.
Depends on many variables. On a cold morning, (-15F) it may take 10-20 miles of driving. HOWEVER, if you turn the heat all the way up... the engine will NEVER EVER come up to temp. because the heater-core can pull more heat out of the engine than it can create.
Is this pretty much the case with even the newer models? I live in Chicago area and normally get nice hot air from my cars(gassers) in about 1 to 3 miles depending on outside temp. How about weather that is between 0-20F, would it take anywheres near that long? I know there are a lot of positives to owning one but waiting 10-20 miles(15-30 minutes???) for the interior to warm up would be kind of a bummer.
I can't say on the newer ones, but my '00 model took awhile to heat up when it was really cold. Either way, there are electric heaters that can be installed and you'll have instant heat. Just have to plug it in. I had mine on a timer and it would run a couple hours before I left. Car started like it was a summer day. Not a necessity, but a nice option if you really despise the cold like I do.
I have a 04 Jetta diesel and have had several warrenty issues with the fuel system. It took the dealer over a year to finally find the problem. There is a electric fuel pump at or in the tank that was bad. After replacing, solved the not wanting to start problem. Although, the problem has returned. But only happens every once in a while. The only way to start the car is to hold the throttle all the way to the floor. After 20 to 30 turns of the engine it will finally start. Any suggestions?
I have an attached garage so the problem with heat isn't much of a problem leaving from home. My concern would be coming back to a car at the airport parking lot or something and it's mid January, midnight and -10F. Twenty to thirty minutes of barely there heat output would get old in a hurry.
Go to Fred's TDI page and see if there is anything about the fuel pump. I seem to remember that there is an orifice as part of the in tank fuel pump assembly which a lot of people enlarge by simply removing a small part. In the OE configuration this orifice tends to clog.
Well I used the electric heater as a luxury. Certainly isn't 20-30 minutes without heat, particularly if you're driving it. I would say more like 7-10 minutes if it's very cold. Before I put the electric heater in, it took me about 5 miles to start really feeling the heat. And mine was an '00 so I'm sure the newer ones heat up better.
the 06 & later vw TDIs have a restrictor in the filler neck so that the truck diesel nozzles will not fit. look on the other side of the diesel pump - often there is a car/small diesel nozzle on one side and one for trucks on the other side.
Actually, the fuel filler necks on the '06 Jetta's are so narrow the diesel nozzle for autos will not fit in all the way. Maybe there are countries or states that mandate smaller nozzles for ultra-low sulfer diesel fuel, so VW must build to meet those specifications? I've yet to find a station in WA that has a nozzle small enough to fit all the way into the filler neck. The nozzle does fit in far enough to allow the automatic shut-off to function. It's never been a problem with our '04 Passat.
There is no rhyme nor reason to RUG or Diesel prices anymore. I can go within 10 miles of my house and find both prices .30-.50 more per gallon sometimes and in the opposite direction maybe a few cents less. Same state and county and no local taxes on gasoline so somebody is making a lot of money per gallon. That "oh we only make 2-3 cents per gallon" is a bunch of crap.
In my area, the prices for Diesel have a difference of up to $1.50 per gallon within a 2 miles radius. Lowest price right now is 3.29, highest is 4.79 and everywhere in between all within several blocks. RUG tends to have a .50 difference between the same statsions. Some of the stations actually have Diesel less than RUG. I agree with you -- there is no rhyme or reason!
You're right, the price of Diesel is still between $0.50 to $1.1 in some area. specifically in NY, NJ, and PA. And I doubt it will ever be cheaper than the GAS, because of the low sulfur requirement by the EPA
The RUG here in north east is as low as $2.53 and the PUG is $2.63, the DSF is $3.45. But again this can be different from other area. It all depend on how close you are to the refinery and if the area where you live has a lot of competition??. Take alook at this page from the news http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12400801/
I don't know if anyone gave you a good answer to your question, but my 2005 TDI uses oil that has VW 505.01 as a spec that you can find on the back of the bottles. Last time I looked Mobile 1 did not have it. AMS oil does. Please look at the owner’s manual and look for the specification you need. Most oils can't go more than 5000 miles. The specification has to do with how the oil deals with contamination. After 5000 miles you need to change the oil because the oil filter can’t remove all the junk that’s suspended in the oil. AMS oil for gas engines can go 50000 miles, but diesel is still 5000 miles.
This is the simple explanation. I hope it helps. Try this URL for more info http://www.tdiclub.com/
Does this apply to the new 2009s? According to the manual and dealership, the service intervals are 10,000 miles. Not sure what type of oil I'm using, all I know is they mentioned synthetic...
I have been running 0w20, 5w20 (Mobil One) for 73,000 miles with a min of 10,000 miles. The conventional 5w20 meets the 10,000 miles specifications (FORD/HONDA, Ford being the stricter specifications)
Techline has asked the dealer to replace the engine harness. Part not in the US and needs to be brought in from Germany. MIL was reset and the car returned to me until the part arrives.
Oh yes !! The post was a response to a question in another post for the HONDA product (synthetic vs conventional issue with diesel being confined to 5,000 miles OCI's), aka NOT the VW TDI product!
Absolutely not! I have run Delvac 5w40 Mobil One Truck and SUV 5w40 ever since the 5,000 miles OCI. (factory fill change) Pentosin is a great oil by the way. TDI parts(off topic) is a great vendor.
Hi Ron, tonight when I went to fill up my tank I see what you mean. The station I was at had both ULSD and LSD pumps next to each other. It appears that one of the LSD pumps had been converted to ULSD, and the nozzle was quite big at the end and would not fit at all in my car. Just for kicks, I tried it (bad idea) and made quite a mess.
It's probably best for your son to go somewhere else, or look for a smaller pump nozzle.
This can be a complicated question. For sure it is a 120,000 mile "major tune up". If it similar to gen IV products, $300. in parts and 2-6 hours of labor. There a a gaggle of special tools and it is best to get a VW TDI guru to do the actual work, when it comes time.
That doesn't sound too bad, I was expecting more for some reason. I won't have to worry about having that changed for some time, currently have 2700 miles on my TDI.
My TDI came with Bridgestone Turanza EL 400-02 tires, and from what I hear they aren't very good at all (so far no problems here). As winter is approaching (currently snowing actually), has anyone else had any experience with these tires? Will they be decent in light snow, or am I better off with something else? My preference is Goodyear Assurance TripleTreds, but I would like to get some more use out of these before making this purchase. But if these tires are as bad as people say, it would be worth the expense to avoid an accident.
Yes in view of the (before the current ww economic malaise) Am driver's yearly mileage: between 12,000 to 15,000 per year/120,000 that would put it out to 10 years to 8 years.
At the rate I'm going, I've had the car almost a month now and will have over 3000 by Friday. I travel a decent amount for work, so at the rate I'm going it's likely to be in 4 or 5 years
Comments
Think about the build process. It's almost impossible to make something that complex with so many moving parts absolutely perfect.
What was the first year of the high MPG TDI?
How reliable are they (keep in mind the Corolla is as reliable as a Swiss watch)?
How hard are they to start in cold weather, and how long does the engine have to run before they start producing heat from the heater?
How many miles can a TDI be expected to last with a reasonable amount of care? I expect my Corolla to go at least 200K miles, and probably more like 300K. Is it reasonable to expect a TDI to go longer than that because they are a diesel? I've noticed in the price range I've been looking at ($5000-$8000) most of the cars are very high mileage (almost all of them have in excess of 120K miles on them). I was hoping to get something with a bit less miles, What keeps their price so high?
Never owning a diesel, or a VW before, is there anything else I need to consider?
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081015/OPINION03/810150318
Now if you said reliable as a battery operated quartz watch either Swiss or Japanese, I would jump in and say go for it. HOWEVER....
A swiss watch really needs a lot of maintenance. (your statement could imply you never had a swiss watch/s or you have had "a" to nothing but swiss watches and are USED to that level of maintenance and repair)
How cold is the weather you will encounter? I have started the car in 20 degree weather and @ altitude (INXS of 6,400 feet) INSTANTLY and with no additives other than the location specific ULSD fuel. If the weather is colder than that, I would say you may want to look at additives such as Power Service (anti gel in this case) Do not buy a diesel for the "fantastic" heaters. You will be highly disappointed. Diesels do not generate NEAR the heat that a gasser does. If you are remotely interested, longer term this is a GOOD thing - shorter term wear a parka..
The newer TDI's have OCI's as high as 30,000 miles vs a normal Corolla @ 3,000/5,000 miles. At the worst 10,000 miles. At 100,000 miles my TDI needed a TB/WP (aka parts R/R and computer tune up). In comparison the Civic needs a TB/WP change (aka parts R/R and computer tune up). @ 105,000 miles.
I think by the prices you are encountering, the question of longevity is being answered.
I think there is a 60/40 chance you will be disappointed, so I would stay with a Corolla/Civic. I say this even as I have a TDI 110,000 miles/Civic 71,000 miles side by side. While both have been highly reliable, the Civic's consumeable items wear much faster. One thing that does NOT show up in the cost equation: do you want a commute car that can handle highway (Civic) or do you want a highway car than can handle commutes (TDI). Obviously if your commute is on highways....
I have been more than satisfied with both. Under the same daily commute, TDI does 48-52 vs Civic 38-42 mpg. SAME driver.
I would say that if your main concern is cost of ownership the Toyota would be the way to go. If you factor in the "fun to drive" issue you'll like the TDI.
The waste heat output of a diesel engine is much less than the waste heat output of a conventional gasoline engine of the same power, especially at idle. In fact, some diesels are not supposed to be run indefinitely at normal idle, even in warm weather. The engine temp will drift down and down to a level at which excess engine wear occurs. The diesel engined Mercedes Sprinter vans have a so called "high idle" option so that the engine can be run above normal idle for extended periods while stopped in heavy traffic or holding passengers while stopped. This high idle keeps the engine temp in the correct operating range at the expense of higher fuel consumption.
The waste heat from the engine is what is used to heat the passenger compartment. So diesels will not heat the passenger compartment as rapidly as a gasser.
you're not getting a car fresh out of the drawing table. In case you wonder diesel is readily available i believe 42% of stations carry diesel in the USA specially stations along the freeways, just make sure to keep paper towels in your trunk the truck drivers are very careless when handling pump nousals, they're mostly slimy, but this car is well worth it. if you end up buying the car know you're not gonna be driving just another basic car as this cars come with lots of features as standard equipment. Good luck.
"How reliable are they" Using the design life-expectancy of the engine (given in hours) and some math (assuming 50MPH average speed)....the TDI engine is rated for at least 300,000 miles. Keep in mind this same basic engine is used in marine applications to move boats over the ocean.
"How hard are they to start in cold weather?" Not hard at all... STARTING is not an issue at all. (My TDI starts just fine at -15F)
"how long does the engine have to run before they start producing heat from the heater?" Depends on many variables. On a cold morning, (-15F) it may take 10-20 miles of driving. HOWEVER, if you turn the heat all the way up... the engine will NEVER EVER come up to temp. because the heater-core can pull more heat out of the engine than it can create.
Never owning a diesel, or a VW before, is there anything else I need to consider? Consider adding diesel-fuel additive at EVERY fillup. There are many benefets including 2-4 more MPG, longer fuelpump life and quieter running.
Also, do not assume the dealership knows how to effectively maintain diesel engines beyond basic stuff. You MUST use special oil which is not readilly available in North America. (I order all my supplies from tdiparts.com)
Unlike Asian automobiles which can be pretty much ignored... VWs are better off when meticulusly maintained per the reccomended schedule.
Best of all.... it is WONDERFUL to be able to travel 700+ miles per tank of fuel!!!!
Is this pretty much the case with even the newer models? I live in Chicago area and normally get nice hot air from my cars(gassers) in about 1 to 3 miles depending on outside temp. How about weather that is between 0-20F, would it take anywheres near that long? I know there are a lot of positives to owning one but waiting 10-20 miles(15-30 minutes???) for the interior to warm up would be kind of a bummer.
http://www.tdiclub.com/
I saw diesel for 15 cents per gallon cheaper than RUG today at a Speedway.
truck diesel nozzles will not fit. look on the other side of the diesel pump -
often there is a car/small diesel nozzle on one side and one for trucks
on the other side.
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RUG 3..69 (+ .25 more)
PUG 3.89 (+.45 more)
D2 $ 3.44
The refineries are in Benecia/Martinez (that helped win WW2 Pacific campaign,) again literally up the road less than 40 miles.
This is the simple explanation. I hope it helps.
Try this URL for more info http://www.tdiclub.com/
I only run PENTOSIN oil in my TDI. (German oil that meets the VW specs) Easilly obtained from TDIPARTS website.
Absolutely not! I have run Delvac 5w40 Mobil One Truck and SUV 5w40 ever since the 5,000 miles OCI. (factory fill change) Pentosin is a great oil by the way. TDI parts(off topic) is a great vendor.
It's probably best for your son to go somewhere else, or look for a smaller pump nozzle.
Service at 120,000 miles - Replace (2.0L TDI only)
Pre 2009 TB/WP intervals were @ 100,000 miles and that was up from 60/80 (or so) .
first tsx, then accord and crv allegedly
In 2010, six cylinder diesel for ridgeline, pilot
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Turanza+E- L400-02