I'm working off of what I want...31k for the Mazdaspeed6 touring and 35k for the 330i.
9 oil changes at 5000 miles = $450 30,000 mile tune up = $300
Mazdausa.com says the Mzd6 gets 19/25 (not 20/26 like edmunds claims). as the car turns over 4000 rpm at 80+, I do not believe I'll get any better than 19 mpg with the car ever. but to be nice i'll do this;
Over 50,000 miles / 20 mpg * $3.00 premium gas = $7500.
For 3 series I'm going with 50,000 miles / 23 mpg * $3.00 premium gas = $6500.
To me that means the Mazdaspeed6 is really $32,800 (31k + 800 maintenance and extra 1k in gas).
Heck compared to a 31k msrp A3 (25/32) at 27 mpg, the Mazdaspeed6 2800 more expensive over 3 years. Ouch.
The scoobie too me is way too bargain basement. That interior is really, really bad. The legacy is fast and rough...but loud, the engine thrashy, tranny's notchy and the car feels like something built in the early 90s. One last thing, they get horrendous gas mileage. It's a shame as Subarus are so reliable.
In all likelihood I'll probably get an A3/GTI for a few years and then move to an M3 sedan or 335i (if either ever comes here). My dad's a big car rebuilder (he has several award winning t-birds and is currently building a factory five cobra) and he offered this weekend to redo/mod an early/mid 90s 300zx/240sx/rx-7 for me.
Mazda would have had me if the car's tranny were geared properly...
Mazda would have had me if the car's tranny were geared properly...
BGDC, you seem exceedingly fussy. That's not a criticism, just an observation. (It has been suggested that I have this quality as well.)
Anyway, given that your criteria are so hard to meet, it might be worth your while to go the extra mile. That is, couldn't you get your dad to re-gear the Mazda? It's just a straight manual transmission, right? It should be do-able, unlike re-gearing something like a tiptronic. It's not trivial, I know, but not impossible.
And even with a custom re-gearing, it's still almost certain to be more reliable than anything from Audi/VW these days...
Heck compared to a 31k msrp A3 (25/32) at 27 mpg, the Mazdaspeed6 2800 more expensive over 3 years. Ouch.
For a car that's smaller in all dimensions, has POOR reliablity and service records, and is an overpriced Golf, sure, it's worth it over an MS6.
It's also still not fair to compare the 3-series without the AWD, considering that the gas mileage for the Xi has to be poorer than the 330i. Lets compare apples to apples here...
The gearing is what it is. You've stated multiple times that you don't like it, so don't buy the car. I happen to think that the gearing is suited for a turbocharged 4-cyl, rather than a 6-cyl. The gearing is suited to keep the motor in it's power range in any gear, and since the turbos pull better at higher RPMs, the gearing reflects that. If fuel economy suffers by 1-2 MPG, the typical MS6 owner could live with that, considering that they want performance. I could, and I know I'm not the only one...
IS a little high for a car with 2.3L displacement. You'd think they could drop it a little considering it has a 6 speed transmission. My 1987 FX16 GT-S cruised at that rpm but it had a 1.6L.
I agree that BGDC might as well move on, but I also have to agree that Mazda shoulda given this car a cruising gear.
"Overpriced Golf" is a little harsh though. There is really nothing wrong with the new Golf/Jetta platform. I drove the Jetta and although I hated the engine, the structure felt solid as a vault.
Have you driven a Saab, or other turbo cars? Saabs have very responsive turbos and get very good fuel economy. 3200 RPM at 85 MPH. There is no excuse for this, especially given the advertised power range for this car.
I agree with the cheap and unrefined feeling of Subbie. Plus, I find their cars to be overpriced. I just don't know how you will find the A3 satisfying given what you are used to. Even chipped, the power is there, but the driving dynamics aren't.
I need to go drive a M6 to evaluate the driving dynamics. For me, body roll can be fixed fairly easily. However, suspension compliance, damping and response require far more effort to get right. This is the area where most cars fall flat for me.
I'm working off of what I want...31k for the Mazdaspeed6 touring and 35k for the 330i. Heck compared to a 31k msrp A3 (25/32) at 27 mpg, the Mazdaspeed6 2800 more expensive over 3 years. Ouch.
You are comparing the wrong models. For a fair comparison, you need to get BMW 330xi and Audi A4 awd.
With that in mind, the MS 6 has a larger interior and less recognized brand and costs several grands less. Not to mention another several grands advantage over the luxury VW in terms of repair.
I was very interested in this car when I heard it was coming out. After reading some specifications, now I don't know what type of car it is. At first, I thought it would be designed as real competition for the Evo or STI in a more subtle package. Unfortunately, it weighs about 300-400 lbs more and has considerably less horsepower. I was hoping that this would make the "rally racer" market more competitive (instead of paying list price or more for either the STI or Evo). I am still considering the STI (I expect the Evo would break from one shift of my driving since it is a Mitsubishi), but the Mazdaspeed 6 seems more like competition for a BMW 330i or Acura TL (ie luxury).
considering the STI (I expect the Evo would break from one shift of my driving since it is a Mitsubishi), but the Mazdaspeed 6 seems more like competition for a BMW 330i or Acura TL (ie luxury). Agreed, the Mspeed6 is flirting with Audis, Acuras and Bimmers not Mitsubishis. See post 522 for Edmunds take.
t's also still not fair to compare the 3-series without the AWD, considering that the gas mileage for the Xi has to be poorer than the 330i. Lets compare apples to apples here...
Uh, no. RWD is superior. The Msd6 needs AWD because it's built on a FWD platform. I would never consider an AWD version of a car if RWD were also available.
Uh, no. RWD is superior. The Msd6 needs AWD because it's built on a FWD platform. I would never consider an AWD version of a car if RWD were also available.
Then you'll obviously understand the poorer gas mileage with the MS6 is partly due to the AWD, and comparing it to the Xi is the ONLY true way to compare gas mileage.
Uh, no. i compare what I want against what I want. I want 30+ mpg on long freeway drives. I don't care if the car is FWD, RWD, AWD or six wheel drive. The official class of the car doesn't matter. The engine can be rotary, turbo, jet, inline, standard V, hydrogen...just give me the power I want.
You believe the Mazdaspeed6 compares to X, Y, and Z cars. I compare(d) the following to the Mazdaspeed6:
TSX, TL, RL (35-37k will get you one), CTS, C-class, Legacy GT 2.5, 325i/330i, A4 FWD, A3 FWD, G35, M35, IS250/350, Zephyr, Saab, S60R, 330C, Charger, Mazda3 hatch, RX-8, Civic SI, GTI, GTO, Passat, Jetta GLI, 350ZX, Miata and any other car I think of.
I don't care if the car I'm test driving is an AWD convertible and the next one is a FWD wagon. I care that the car I pick fits my subjective criteria. One may be a small roadster with a 4 cylinder that gets 30+ mpg and the other a heavy gas guzzling v8 sedan. In the end it's gonna come to down to a private valuation of the cars.
So to me, comparing an AWD Mazdaspeed6 (the only 6 worth considering)to a FWD Honda Civic SI and a Hemi-powered 330C works just fine. The cars have pluses and minuses. Their missions, their target markets, their body designs only matter in so much that one will eventually stand above the rest as the winner. Do you get that? Has it sunk in yet or need I be more specific?
In my eyes any of Audi/VW's 2.0T cars with DSG get a big thumbs up for having great gearing, amazing tranny abilities and exceptional gas consumption. When it comes time to compare gas consumption over 50k miles and maintenance costs, the Audi line moves to the forefront.
Reliability, while a nice pipe dream, won't play into my buying decision. I've owned two horrendously unreliable cars - a 330i and a Jetta 1.8T - and I'd still go back as long as I have a warranty.
So when I figure cost of ownership over 3 years for various cars, I will factor in my expected gas mileage v. 50,000 miles and cost of oil changes, driving experience, warranty length, loaner car policy, expected mileage on road trips, noise levels at 85+ for long distances, comfort on long drives, seat design, ergonomics, etc.
Whether you like it or not, the majority of cars I will compare to the Mazdaspeed6 will not be AWD. I dislike AWD and settle for it only because Mazda doesn't make the car RWD.
Performance vehicle is subjective. I wouldn't classify any car I listed as a performance vehicle. Several of the sport sedans/wagons in the near/entry level luxury class get 30 mpg or better.
Okay, I get it. Instead of comparing apples to apples, you're comparing the MS6, a 274-HP sport sedan with a turbo 4-cyl and AWD, to, among others, a Mazda3, a Civic Si, a TSX, and even an A3 FWD to suit your needs. Fine, I get it...
Having said that, comparing gas mileage to those mentioned above, well duh! Of course the MS6 pales in mileage compared to them, they're completely different cars in terms of size and scope.
Does that mean that the MS6 gets poor mileage? I don't think so. The Legacy 2.5GT you mentioned gets similar gas mileage, and it's closest in size and scope to the MS6. So does the G35. I won't even go near how bad the 300C, RX-8, Charger and Z really are.
You can consider all you want in terms of your next car purchase, but you can't complain about the "theoretical" poor gas mileage of the MS6 if you're comparing it to a 3 or a Civic. It just makes no sense...
The more you post about the MS6, the less I think the car is right for your needs. Some owners on other forums LOVE their MS6, simply for it's power, handling, and road feel. They don't care about gas mileage, and neither would I if I owned one.
Listen, I don't want to create any enemies here, and I apologize to you and anyone else on this forum for dragging this out, but if you're looking for 30+ MPG, then I'd forget about the MS6, 2.5GT, G35, GTO or about half the other cars on that list.
Let's cut out the bickering. Also, this isn't a comparisons discussion. If you want to create one on the Sedans board, please go ahead and do so, but leave this discussion for conversation that's specifically about the MAZDASPEED Mazda6. Thanks!
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An interesting thing posted on a different forum that's worth repeating. Apparently, if you run 87 or 89 octane in the MS6, the computer opens the wastegate actuator past 4200 RPM, dropping the boost. In other words, no turbo.
Another interesting tidbit is that about 50% of the MS6's were filled with 87 octane at the port, and many owners have noticed a dramatic power loss as the factory gasoline is replaced with the 87 octane from the port, only to have it come back after a tankful or two of premium pumped by the owners themselves.
I can't name the informant, but he's a VERY reliable source, and he recommends using 91 octane or better at all times.
This car will do fine, and I don't think a lot of people are going to be cross-shopping some of the cars mentioned recently. If it's not for you, it's not for you. No biggie, there are plenty of choices out there.
Just keep in mind AWD and explosive acceleration might be criteria for other people that would rule out several of the alternatives you mention. That is perhaps why some folks are not accepting your criteria, just as you don't accept theirs.
Funny thing is for me, price is paramount. I put a $30k cap, so I might cross-shop a MS6 with a used 325xi, and to me reliability is a high priority, so the Bimmer drops right off the radar.
The high cruising RPM will bother some people looking for the "adult" tuner car. We'll just have to wait until someone actually buys one. Seems to be taking a while. Same thing happened with the 6. Lots of noise in the forum but it took a while for anyone there to actually buy one. You'd think someone would be here by now since so many were "preordered".
I can't find anything either. They just specify Calif emissions for CA, MA, ME, NY, VT....many of the surrounding states order Cal emissions also. Here in CT I order allo Cal cars.
Morries Mazda in Minnetonka, MN (Minneapolis suburb)... they just received FIVE MS6's in last night while they were closed. I'll go take a look tomorrow or Saturday - I can't wait to see it in person & drive it .
I'm looking for a couple bits of information because I've either seen conflicting info or just nothing on a couple pieces:
* Does the base (Sport?) model come with xenon headlamps? * How big is the trunk (in cubic feet)? * Anyone seen a quarter-mile time on it? * Anyone seen skidpad performance? * What's the drag coefficient?
Most of this is just pure curiosity, not because most of these numbers matter deeply...
I was at the same drive event in Dallas, TX for Mazda. The cars we drove it against were the Subaru Legacy GT, BMW 325xi and the Audi A4 Quattro 2.0T. The BMW was the only one that handled as well. The Subaru has tremendous body roll, and was too much turbo lag. Pluse no DSC/TCS available. The Audi was pathetic. No power, very old interior design, and handleing was way below what I expected. Its just an over priced VW. Now, as for the Mazdaspeed6. The power is pretty good (274hp/280tq) The TCS/DSC hold you to the road with out takeing away control from the driver. There is NO TURBO LAG, and NO BODY ROLL. Hey, for $33k with Nav, you cant complain. Esspically when it has no real competition. I really don't feel like spending $60k on a BMW M3 (no AWD) or a Audi S4. Over all, this is a fast, fun car to drive. It mixes pure performance with a classy design (not ricy. i.e. EVO, STi).
* Does the base (Sport?) model come with xenon headlamps?
Yes, HID low-beams are standard on both the Sport and Grand Touring models.
* How big is the trunk (in cubic feet)?
According to Edmunds.com, 12.4 cubic feet, about 3 cubic feet smaller than the sedan.
* Anyone seen a quarter-mile time on it? * Anyone seen skidpad performance? * What's the drag coefficient?
You and I, and everyone else on this forum is waiting for hard test munbers, yet for some reason, none of the car mags (in the US anyway) have stepped up to the plate yet...
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The Sube has turbo lag while the MZS6 does not? I find this hard to believe since the Sube has more displacement and lower boost. This will usually translate into less lag than a smaller engine with higher boost. Were both sticks? Or both autos? If the sube was auto and the mazda stick, there is your answer.
Then again, I suppose the sube could be using a bigger turbo (hence more difficult to spool up) with lower boost. Anyone here know?
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You won't harm the engine. The low octane will simply retard performance as the sensors will detect you're using the wrong gas and dial down the engine's performance to compensate for low octane gas. The price difference over a year is about $150. Is it worth 50 cents a day to grin a little more? I'd say yes.
The engine and gearing make it respond instantly. The scoobie may have more displacement and a whole lot less boost but it's not nearly as responsive as the Mazdaspeed6.
are only some dealers speed dealers? I stopped recently to see one (OK, mostly to get my freebie card signed), and the sales guy said they didn't carry them (not a "speed" shop). Odd, since they are really the only Mazda dealer in the area, and a pretty big one to boot.
Yes, HID low-beams are standard on both the Sport and Grand Touring models.
OK, I've seen a couple things here and there which said only the GT had xenons.
According to Edmunds.com, 12.4 cubic feet, about 3 cubic feet smaller than the sedan.
Again, I've seen the 15.2 from the original sedan and the 12.4 on Edmunds in different places, and I was wondering which was actually right. (Edmunds isn't always right.)
Comments
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/AutoshowArticles/articleId=107843
John
John
9 oil changes at 5000 miles = $450
30,000 mile tune up = $300
Mazdausa.com says the Mzd6 gets 19/25 (not 20/26 like edmunds claims). as the car turns over 4000 rpm at 80+, I do not believe I'll get any better than 19 mpg with the car ever. but to be nice i'll do this;
Over 50,000 miles / 20 mpg * $3.00 premium gas = $7500.
For 3 series I'm going with 50,000 miles / 23 mpg * $3.00 premium gas = $6500.
To me that means the Mazdaspeed6 is really $32,800 (31k + 800 maintenance and extra 1k in gas).
Heck compared to a 31k msrp A3 (25/32) at 27 mpg, the Mazdaspeed6 2800 more expensive over 3 years. Ouch.
The scoobie too me is way too bargain basement. That interior is really, really bad. The legacy is fast and rough...but loud, the engine thrashy, tranny's notchy and the car feels like something built in the early 90s. One last thing, they get horrendous gas mileage. It's a shame as Subarus are so reliable.
In all likelihood I'll probably get an A3/GTI for a few years and then move to an M3 sedan or 335i (if either ever comes here). My dad's a big car rebuilder (he has several award winning t-birds and is currently building a factory five cobra) and he offered this weekend to redo/mod an early/mid 90s 300zx/240sx/rx-7 for me.
Mazda would have had me if the car's tranny were geared properly...
BGDC, you seem exceedingly fussy. That's not a criticism, just an observation. (It has been suggested that I have this quality as well.)
Anyway, given that your criteria are so hard to meet, it might be worth your while to go the extra mile. That is, couldn't you get your dad to re-gear the Mazda? It's just a straight manual transmission, right? It should be do-able, unlike re-gearing something like a tiptronic. It's not trivial, I know, but not impossible.
And even with a custom re-gearing, it's still almost certain to be more reliable than anything from Audi/VW these days...
For a car that's smaller in all dimensions, has POOR reliablity and service records, and is an overpriced Golf, sure, it's worth it over an MS6.
It's also still not fair to compare the 3-series without the AWD, considering that the gas mileage for the Xi has to be poorer than the 330i. Lets compare apples to apples here...
The gearing is what it is. You've stated multiple times that you don't like it, so don't buy the car. I happen to think that the gearing is suited for a turbocharged 4-cyl, rather than a 6-cyl. The gearing is suited to keep the motor in it's power range in any gear, and since the turbos pull better at higher RPMs, the gearing reflects that. If fuel economy suffers by 1-2 MPG, the typical MS6 owner could live with that, considering that they want performance. I could, and I know I'm not the only one...
I agree that BGDC might as well move on, but I also have to agree that Mazda shoulda given this car a cruising gear.
"Overpriced Golf" is a little harsh though. There is really nothing wrong with the new Golf/Jetta platform. I drove the Jetta and although I hated the engine, the structure felt solid as a vault.
I need to go drive a M6 to evaluate the driving dynamics. For me, body roll can be fixed fairly easily. However, suspension compliance, damping and response require far more effort to get right. This is the area where most cars fall flat for me.
Heck compared to a 31k msrp A3 (25/32) at 27 mpg, the Mazdaspeed6 2800 more expensive over 3 years. Ouch.
You are comparing the wrong models. For a fair comparison, you need to get BMW 330xi and Audi A4 awd.
With that in mind, the MS 6 has a larger interior and less recognized brand and costs several grands less. Not to mention another several grands advantage over the luxury VW in terms of repair.
Agreed, the Mspeed6 is flirting with Audis, Acuras and Bimmers not Mitsubishis. See post 522 for Edmunds take.
Uh, no. RWD is superior. The Msd6 needs AWD because it's built on a FWD platform. I would never consider an AWD version of a car if RWD were also available.
Then you'll obviously understand the poorer gas mileage with the MS6 is partly due to the AWD, and comparing it to the Xi is the ONLY true way to compare gas mileage.
Again, apples to apples.
You believe the Mazdaspeed6 compares to X, Y, and Z cars. I compare(d) the following to the Mazdaspeed6:
TSX, TL, RL (35-37k will get you one), CTS, C-class, Legacy GT 2.5, 325i/330i, A4 FWD, A3 FWD, G35, M35, IS250/350, Zephyr, Saab, S60R, 330C, Charger, Mazda3 hatch, RX-8, Civic SI, GTI, GTO, Passat, Jetta GLI, 350ZX, Miata and any other car I think of.
I don't care if the car I'm test driving is an AWD convertible and the next one is a FWD wagon. I care that the car I pick fits my subjective criteria. One may be a small roadster with a 4 cylinder that gets 30+ mpg and the other a heavy gas guzzling v8 sedan. In the end it's gonna come to down to a private valuation of the cars.
So to me, comparing an AWD Mazdaspeed6 (the only 6 worth considering)to a FWD Honda Civic SI and a Hemi-powered 330C works just fine. The cars have pluses and minuses. Their missions, their target markets, their body designs only matter in so much that one will eventually stand above the rest as the winner. Do you get that? Has it sunk in yet or need I be more specific?
In my eyes any of Audi/VW's 2.0T cars with DSG get a big thumbs up for having great gearing, amazing tranny abilities and exceptional gas consumption. When it comes time to compare gas consumption over 50k miles and maintenance costs, the Audi line moves to the forefront.
Reliability, while a nice pipe dream, won't play into my buying decision. I've owned two horrendously unreliable cars - a 330i and a Jetta 1.8T - and I'd still go back as long as I have a warranty.
So when I figure cost of ownership over 3 years for various cars, I will factor in my expected gas mileage v. 50,000 miles and cost of oil changes, driving experience, warranty length, loaner car policy, expected mileage on road trips, noise levels at 85+ for long distances, comfort on long drives, seat design, ergonomics, etc.
Whether you like it or not, the majority of cars I will compare to the Mazdaspeed6 will not be AWD. I dislike AWD and settle for it only because Mazda doesn't make the car RWD.
Having said that, comparing gas mileage to those mentioned above, well duh! Of course the MS6 pales in mileage compared to them, they're completely different cars in terms of size and scope.
Does that mean that the MS6 gets poor mileage? I don't think so. The Legacy 2.5GT you mentioned gets similar gas mileage, and it's closest in size and scope to the MS6. So does the G35. I won't even go near how bad the 300C, RX-8, Charger and Z really are.
You can consider all you want in terms of your next car purchase, but you can't complain about the "theoretical" poor gas mileage of the MS6 if you're comparing it to a 3 or a Civic. It just makes no sense...
The more you post about the MS6, the less I think the car is right for your needs. Some owners on other forums LOVE their MS6, simply for it's power, handling, and road feel. They don't care about gas mileage, and neither would I if I owned one.
Listen, I don't want to create any enemies here, and I apologize to you and anyone else on this forum for dragging this out, but if you're looking for 30+ MPG, then I'd forget about the MS6, 2.5GT, G35, GTO or about half the other cars on that list.
That's all I want to get across. Truce?
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Another interesting tidbit is that about 50% of the MS6's were filled with 87 octane at the port, and many owners have noticed a dramatic power loss as the factory gasoline is replaced with the 87 octane from the port, only to have it come back after a tankful or two of premium pumped by the owners themselves.
I can't name the informant, but he's a VERY reliable source, and he recommends using 91 octane or better at all times.
Krzys
Just keep in mind AWD and explosive acceleration might be criteria for other people that would rule out several of the alternatives you mention. That is perhaps why some folks are not accepting your criteria, just as you don't accept theirs.
Funny thing is for me, price is paramount. I put a $30k cap, so I might cross-shop a MS6 with a used 325xi, and to me reliability is a high priority, so the Bimmer drops right off the radar.
-juice
-juice
I'll go take a look tomorrow or Saturday - I can't wait to see it in person & drive it .
Can you delete the "for 2005" from the forums title/name?? It is not appropriate
Thanks!
-juice
* Does the base (Sport?) model come with xenon headlamps?
* How big is the trunk (in cubic feet)?
* Anyone seen a quarter-mile time on it?
* Anyone seen skidpad performance?
* What's the drag coefficient?
Most of this is just pure curiosity, not because most of these numbers matter deeply...
Over all, this is a fast, fun car to drive. It mixes pure performance with a classy design (not ricy. i.e. EVO, STi).
Yes, HID low-beams are standard on both the Sport and Grand Touring models.
* How big is the trunk (in cubic feet)?
According to Edmunds.com, 12.4 cubic feet, about 3 cubic feet smaller than the sedan.
* Anyone seen a quarter-mile time on it?
* Anyone seen skidpad performance?
* What's the drag coefficient?
You and I, and everyone else on this forum is waiting for hard test munbers, yet for some reason, none of the car mags (in the US anyway) have stepped up to the plate yet...
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You drove the wrong model, try the Spec B instead. It has a stiffer suspension and Bilsteins, plus 18" rims to match the MS6.
-juice
Then again, I suppose the sube could be using a bigger turbo (hence more difficult to spool up) with lower boost. Anyone here know?
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-juice
VW 2.0T is direct injection too.
What transmissions were available for testing?
Krzys
I wonder, can the speed6 be driven smoothly?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
OK, I've seen a couple things here and there which said only the GT had xenons.
According to Edmunds.com, 12.4 cubic feet, about 3 cubic feet smaller than the sedan.
Again, I've seen the 15.2 from the original sedan and the 12.4 on Edmunds in different places, and I was wondering which was actually right. (Edmunds isn't always right.)
Grr, I need to get out and drive one...