MAZDASPEED Mazda6

camarillobrill

the audi,bmw, and suby were all autos. When I asked why no sticks were being used in the comparos, I was told there was none avail when they purchased the cars. Sounds a little fishy, but the other day I went to my local BMW store and they did not have a single 325xi with a stick on the lot.

once_for_all

even in an AWD car. The variable torque distribution system is a power apportioning feature, whereas stability control senses other issues such as a vehicle's tendency to react a certain way under certain conditions. Stability control may engage the brakes on certain systems.

Not trying to sound like an expert here, but these systems are complex and vary somewhat. I don't think they can be broad-brushed, especially when the AWD factor is thrown in.

John

blueguydotcom

I wasn't trying to insinuate the AWD system would perform the nannying function of your typical stability control system. Sorry if my post came off that way.

aviboy97

I drove the Spec B as well. I work for a Mazda dealer, and we have a Subi franchise as well. The Spec B still has body roll, although better then the GT. Still not as good as the Speed6. And for no turbo lag, DISI is part of the reason for no turbo lag. Also, the Subi 2.5L engine was designed 10 years ago, not made for turbo charging. They just added it as more power was nessesary. Also, the Subi engine is mounted in the nose of the vehicle, which is terrible for weight distribution. Also, the Subi GT is not a performance vehicle. It is a high HP sedan. The Speed6 was built to be a high performance vehicle.

aviboy97

I drove a stick Subi GT and an auto. The Subi is a double scroll turbo ( not good to prevent lag) , the Mazda is a single scroll. Also, Subi is useing old engine technology that is 10 years old. Just ask your local Subi dealer when they last time they came out with a REALLY new engine was....I work with them, so i know my answer

mz6greyghost

ALL MazdaSpeed 6's have DSC, which is Dynamic Stability Control in Mazda speak. Other acronyms that are included are ABS, EBD (Electronic Brakeforce Distribution), and TCS (Traction Control System), all standard. Don't forget the AWD...

once_for_all

should't LSD be in there somewhere too? :P

John

once_for_all

"Subi is useing old engine technology that is 10 years old"

That just plain isn't true. My '03 2.5 NA engine isn't available anymore, except on the outgoing Baja. The improvements done since include electronic throttle control, dual cams, variable valve opening technology. Same is true with the turbo engines.

It isn't the block that needs improvment, but rather all the moving parts. These are regularly updated.

Frankly, I would rather have a proven engine that gets consistent tweaking improvements, rather than something brand new every 3 years that doesn't go the distance.

John

krzyss

it look like staging the results.
All auto trans cars will be less sporty.
BMW dealer will order the car for you as requested.
Subaru GT can be had with manual from the lot, Spec B is manual only.
Audi is probably similar to BMW in ordering.

I do not believe that when company buys cars for comparison they take stuff from dealer lot only and cannot wait for delivery. I bet it takes longer to approve the expense than to build a car and ship it to USA.

Krzys

camarillobrill

...I agree...I'm not trying to defend mazda for using the autos, just telling you what I was told and what I have seen. When I told the BMW dealer my wife wanted to buy a car in march, he told me they would have to order it in january for march delivery. I'm sure the folks at mazda didnt go too far out of their way to locate sticks...

BTW- mazda contacted my dealership and offered the 18-20 6's used at the test drive for purchase...they wanted invoice....we passed...

qbrozen

Camarillo answered it ... the subie was auto. That does ALOT to explain why it felt laggy compared to the Mazda.

I'm not saying direct injection doesn't help. I'm sure it does, but I think the auto vs manual is by far the biggest detriment to this particular comparison.

krzyss

apparently Mazda or even MazdaSpeed boy.
Anything that does not wear proper badge is bad, old and not good enough to be compared with .

Krzys

PS It would be interesting to see what car magazines will compare MS6 too. My guesses:
Legacy GT
BMW 325xi
Audi 3.0 Quattro
weak choices:
Infinity G35x (Auto only, if I am not mistaken)
Charger/ Magnum AWD (Hemi auto only, what about 3.5 V6?)

Evo and STI are probably too hard core sport.

Just my opinion.

aviboy97

Hey, I am not saying all the other cars are "not good enough" All I am saying is I have driven all, even a stick Subi Legacy GT, and they don't compare. I'm not bashing any other vehicle. It's a shame you took it that way. All I was stating was my observations through my test experience. If any of you have driven the MS6 against any other competitor, I would love to hear what you have to say? But, I have not heard any opinion that differs from mine from anyone who has driven this car. Now, as for the EVO, and STi. They will both beat the MS6 in a foot race, no doubt. As for handling, I think the MS6 has the STi beaten, I'm not sure about the EVO. The MS6 is not a rally car turned street car (i.e. EVO, STi) They are similar in performance, but, not the same class of car. Thats all I said of regarding those vehicles. Also, with the EVO and STi, you don't get the luxury features that are found in the MS6 (leather, heated seats, heated mirrors, remote control nav.)So , I would like to hear every other observation regarding the MS6 and opinions driven against it's competitor.

ateixeira

My, oh my. Where do I start?

Subi 2.5L engine was designed 10 years ago

False. The EJ257 actually has a different block, with a semi-closed deck design. The heads are also different, with AVCS, which the normally aspirated engines don't have.

not made for turbo charging

False. In fact the semi-closed deck block for this engine is used EXCLUSIVELY on the turbo models, so the exact opposite is true. It is not made for normally aspirated engines.

They just added it as more power was nessesary

False again. Once again, the exact opposite is true. This is an STI engine slightly de-tuned, not the other way around. They subtracted some power to make it more streetable.

the Subi engine is mounted in the nose of the vehicle

False yet again. Look at the block, look closely at the spark plugs. All four are behind the front axle. Front mid-ship. I'm not sure about the MS6 but I doubt it's that far back, nor as low as it is in the Subie.

I read that and wonder if you've ever peeked under the hood?

terrible for weight distribution

False, it's about 55/45 front to rear, which is much better than the class-standard 60/40.

Speed6 was built to be a high performance vehicle

I don't see how this is any different than the Spec B? :confuse:

You seem to know more about the Mazda than you do the Subaru, at least. But that's not saying much...

-juice

aviboy97

the MS6 has both active torque split AWD system, and dynamic stability control

aviboy97

I have studied the Subi very much so. As I stated before, I am around them every day. And I have looked under the hood. The engine is WAy in front of the axel. It is still an old engine design..thats what I said. Now, I recieved the tech info from my Subi tech, unless he is wrong, then I appologize. Are you a Subi tech, or just believe that what you read on the internet is ALWAYS true?? Was the Spec B as built from the groud up to be a high performance vehicle? Show me TCS/DSC...and does it have a limited slip? active torque? I don't have the answers yet to this. Do you? If you do, I would like to know. Also, what do you think your odds are on EVER driving one, since there will only be 500. Have you driven the MS6 yet?

aviboy97

I would have passed as well on those tested MS6's...we beat the piss outta them. I'm sure you did as well

ateixeira

I specialize in Subarus, and yes I have had technical training and attended the Legacy intro events in Detroit and Las Vegas and even got to drive one on the Las Vegas Motor Speedway infield track as Subaru's guest.

Am I a Subi tech? Yes, basically. LOL

The event in Vegas was for dealer training, but they actually brought us the day before, and asked us if we thought the content was appropriate for dealers. Dealer staff took the same course/drives the next day after our input was taken to adapt the course in more layman's terms.



Did you get to drive the MS6 on a track? Really push it to its limits? Do dealers even have demos that you can drive like that? Because I doubt anyone would want to buy it if you did.

You did not study the Subi enough! You didn't know about the type of block, the heads, the limited-slip, the position of the engine, plenty of things that are common knowledge to Subaru fans.

Old design? You're still talking about the wrong engine! This is not the same block or head as what went in the Outback 10 years ago!

The engine is not "WAy in front of the axel". (I won't bother with the multiple typos...)

Was the Spec B as built from the groud up to be a high performance vehicle?

And the Mazda6 was? No way! Dream on!

does it have a limited slip?

YES!

Did you pay a tech to train you? You should demand a refund.

Stick to talking about the Mazda, please. You are clearly not qualified to talk about the Subaru at all.

-juice

ateixeira

That's me behind the wheel...

I went to Gaith. Mazda Wed night around 8pm but it was too late for a drive, they did have one MS6 in stock so I'll go back. No way could I push it like we were able to push that Legacy, though, on public roads.

-juice

aviboy97

apparently the Spec B has to TCS/DSC then?? If not, I would hate to see that vehicle on anything but dry pavement.

blueguydotcom

Honestly, what's the fascination with electronic nannies? Especially in an AWD car?

aviboy97

without TCS, you have 4 wheels spinning on a slippery surface, with no control but the throttle. With TCS, it works with the ABS system, in most cars, and stops the wheels spinning until they can gain traction. I tested this on two giant plastic tarps, loaded with soap and water. With the TCS off, the car did not move, and had all 4 wheels spinning. No, starting with the TCS on, the wheels spun for a split second, and then gained traction, and the car shot off the mat.
Now, as for DCS. If you are cornering, and you begin to under steer, or over steer, the DCS prevents you from doing so. It grabs the inner wheels ( in a turn) and adds slight brake pressure, now, your car cannot understeer, or what race drivers call "push". Basically, you maintain control on a turn at high speeds, or on slippery surfaces. It is very possible to "push" or be "loose" (over steer) even with AWD. It's added safety, and better control.

camarillobrill

also, the old saying is true....four wheel, or in this case all wheel drive, doesnt help you stop. Ice and snow dont care.
Driving that 6 at full throttle through turns was incredible. You never once noticed any restriction being brought on by tcs or dsc, but the car felt as if it just held the road. The car is a joy to drive aggressively, I just feel bad that 99.9% of the people that buy one will never be able to drive it the way I did.... on a track with no restrictions...and THAT is the way this car should be driven..

blueguydotcom

That's the first time I've ever seen someone extolling the virtues of stability control and traction control on a performance car. Your answers are shocking, to say the least.

Kirstie_H

We're going to move this discussion to its permanent home on the Sedans board. If you're subscribed or have it bookmarked, nothing will change for you. Otherwise, now's a good time to do so! You can always find this discussion using the search tools at the left.

aviboy97

TCS/DCS are on some Audi's, and on BMW's. From the people I know that own those vehilces, they like it. But, maybe it's not for everyone. But, I tell you what....It is sure gonna save a helluva lot of accidents from these idiots that THINK they can drive, but can't, and end up rolling,like the idiots driving their precious EVO's or STi's. I hear of those cars getting wrecked ALL the time.

krzyss

Let me tell you something. The purpose of presentation was to show you capabilities of TCS. With switch off and human trying to brake loose the car will brake loose. If human tried to modulate the clutch and throttle (you have two legs I suppose) I bet the car will get moving, maybe not as gently as with TCS but still forward in general direction.
Now with TCS switch on human cannot brake tires loose as "electronic nany" prevents driver from doing it. I believe that brakes are being modulated and throttle too.

I do not think I need traction control but I would love to have stability control on my Legacy GT (with big swith to turn it off completely).

Krzys

PS Most performance oriented drivers want to be in control of the car. This is why they buy manual transmissions (SMG,DSG might change it but these are manual transmissions without clutch pedal, clutch is controlled by computer) and at least can turn off all electronic intelligence, when they do not need it (like the track or maybe empty parking lot covered with snow).

aviboy97

I agree with you. I think DSC is a nice feature, and I think TCS is kinda over rated. DSC really helps where the majority of people out there don't know how to avoid pushing, or becoming loose. A real race driver does not need any of these systems. But, then again, these cars that car company's are building(i.e. MS6) are being driven by ordinary people with no professional race training. And to avoid human stupidity, and there are a lot of stupid drivers out there, these systems are nessessary

krzyss

Krzys

aviboy97

yes we do!

ateixeira

Spec B has VTD+LSD, but who cares about acronyms?

Mazda sourced their AWD from Haldex. It's FWD-based and doesn't have a center differential, so it can't be used full-time on dry pavement. Subaru's can.

I already apologized for my incomplete information

But not for the inaccurate information, which is a lot worse. It was not just incomplete, much of it was just plain wrong.

EVO's or STi's. I hear of those cars getting wrecked ALL the time.

And we all know about the accuracy of the data you share so well...LOL!

Stability control is fine as long as there is a switch to turn it off completely. No switch is a deal killer.

-juice

aviboy97

To anyone who has driven this vehicle, I would really like to know what you think (good and bad). I suggest taking this vehicle on back roads to experience the handling, as well as an area where you can get up to speed. I'm really interested in what you all think.

aviboy97

Mazda sourced their AWD from Haldex. It's FWD-based and doesn't have a center differential, so it can't be used full-time on dry pavement. Subaru's can.


you saying that you cannot drive a MS6 on dry pavement? If so, you are crazy.

Also, on your Spec B, you don't have complete performance suspension. I don't see double wishbone...which is what you find in race vehicles.

ateixeira

"It" being the AWD system, of course. The Haldex AWD is part-time only. That was the topic of the paragraph, so that should have been clear.

MS6 uses the same basic suspension architecture as the Mazda6, which isn't exactly a race car. And you made yet another mistake - the rear suspension is not a double-wishbone, as you say, but rather a multi-link. From the MazdaUSA web site:

E-type multi-link with shock absorbers and coil springs

You must've had a bad trainer for the Mazda portion, too!

the Spec B will loose

As long as it doesn't lose! :P

You keep offering inaccurate information and yours posts are riddled with grammatical mistakes. At a minimum you should review your notes so you know what kind of suspension it has.

-juice

krzyss

ATexiera is quite (if not very) knowledgable guy. He is usually right which does not mean he cannot be wrong ;-)

This time he is right and you are too...
jumpy (I think it properly describes Your attitude). Pleae correct me as English is my 2nd language.

All Haldex systems that I know of (VW/Audi, Ford/Volvo and now Ford/Mazda?) are AWD but there are many flavours of AWD. Haldex design prevents from delivering power to all wheels all the time in the dry. Such system delivers power to one axle (usually front) and AFTER detecting the spin it engages the other (are there any 6x6 vehicles using Haldex?) axle.
Subaru itself has something like 4 different AWD systems. 3 are available in Legacy line, Impreza is the only line available with all 4 - if I am not mistaken.

4EAT transmission has system similar to Haldex in that it delivers 90% of torque to Front and after detecting the slip it splits the torque more evenly.

5MT is viscous coupling and default split is 50-50.

4EAT in WRX is VTD(Variable Torque Distribution?) and its default split is 35-65 (F-R) if I am not mistaken, if I am it still has rear wheel bias ;-) There is electronically contralled clutch in center differential.

DCCD is almost rally ready transmission available on STi (or is it STI now). It is similar to VTD but it works with 6 speed MT. Lock between axles is driver controlled including AUTO mode.

Legacy has:
- 4EAT (4 speed auto 90-10 split) for 2.5NA engine.
- 5EAT (5 speed auto 35-65 split?) for 2.5T and 3.0NA - VTD
- 5MT (5 speed manual with 50-50 split)

Soo...

MS6 drives on dry pavement in AWD mode that delivers 100% of torque to front. This is what juice wrote. Car is AWD but its hardware cannot deliver torque to all wheels when it is dry. Haldex is faster and faster in transferring the torque/engaging rear wheels but still is more intrusive than Subaru advanced AWD (non 4EAT) systems.

On the bright side Haldex delivers better fuel economy.

Subaru drives on dry pavement depending on its configuration ;-)

Krzys

PS Go to howstuffworks.com and read about AWD, LSD and other animals.

ateixeira

In this context (Legacy GT and Spec , we're only talking about VTD AWD, which makes comparisons simple. Default power split is 45/55, so there's actually a rearward bias, like BMW, Mercedes, and Audi.

Plus the system is in use full-time, engineered to last in that type of use.

The Haldex in the MS6 is not. It's part-time, basically FWD and then on-demand 4WD. Technically it should not be called AWD at all because there is no center differential and it cannot be used full-time. When it is engaged the two axles bind together, which is why it's for slippery surfaces only.

Advantages include cheapness (low cost) and better fuel efficiency, not exactly the traits you're looking for in a sports sedan.

-juice

aviboy97

i know the Mazda has e-type multi link in the rear, double wishbone in the front....with such a knowledgeable guy, as yourself, i would have thought you would have known where i was going with that....this is a blog...i really dont care for grammatical errors....if this was an essay on automotive knowledge, maybe i would proof read, but, i really don't care that much to.

aviboy97

"It" being the AWD system, of course. The Haldex AWD is part-time only. That was the topic of the paragraph, so that should have been clear.

Actually ,the only time the rear wheels are not engaged are when going less then 5mph, turning into a parking space. Other then that, it is a full-time AWD system...

And you made yet another mistake - the rear suspension is not a double-wishbone, as you say, but rather a multi-link. From the MazdaUSA web site:

I never said the rear was double wishbone....try reading a little closer.

And, sorry about the typo...the Spec B will lose

I am not insulting your intelligence, ateix, i know i am not as knowldgeable as you in regards to all automotive technology....but, I do know the MS6 very very very well.

aviboy97

The Haldex in the MS6 is not. It's part-time, basically FWD and then on-demand 4WD. Technically it should not be called AWD at all because there is no center differential and it cannot be used full-time. When it is engaged the two axles bind together, which is why it's for slippery surfaces only.


I did not know that...very interesting. I wanna talk about that with my service manager

krzyss

Krzys

krzyss

is there for a reason.

If one wants to be understood by others then stick with it.
Another issue are paragraphs.

All of these shows respect of the author to the target audience. Why should I read somebody's message if they do not try to relay it properly?

And last but not least.
It is discussion board hosted by edmunds.com and not blog.

I might be mistaken but blog is diary posted on line (I was under impression that diaries are better kept secret, this way one can write what they really think).
What we have here is civilized (often) discussion.

Krzys living in New England, MA to be exact and not seeing Evos or WRXs crashed on each bend of the road ;-)

aviboy97

I just spoke with my service manager...the MS6 has a AWD system, but the rear wheels engage on demand...as you stated....MS6 AWD system is an exact duplicate of Volvo's.

I'm not very pleased with Mazda's educators in this vehicle. Everything I have been writing has been what we were taught. Which is sad. I really feel Mazda misrepresented themselves when teaching us about this vehicle.

The MS6 has more of a luxury AWD system, with a high performance engine. There is really nothing like it. The Subi Legacy GT, Evo, STi and other's are completely different cars.

Overall, the MS6 is a great performer,as well as all the other vehicles we have been talking about. I feel like i just attended auto 101 all over again. Thanks guys.

I'm looking forward to more chat...I hope I didn't come across as hostile, that was not my goal.

aviboy97

Krzys living in New England, MA to be exact and not seeing Evos or WRXs crashed on each bend of the road

I live in CT. I see them wrecked due to the driver not knowing how to drive. I was not blaming the car

ajoseph

bought this car on Saturday, I previously owned a 2000 mazda millenia millennium edition, took it in for a check engine light issue, low and behold it was gonna cost me approx. $4500.00 to get it taken care of. No way I was putting that kind of money in a 2000 model car with 85000 miles. The search began, my good friends at our Mazda dealership here in austin texas(love u guys)was on the hunt for either a g35 or an acuratl, got a call at 9 am on saturday morning, come testdrive the mazdaspeed6, had 2 on the lot, 1 on the showroom(grand touring package), the other the basemodel. Test drove the base model I was hooked, 1hr and a half later, the porter is driving the one of the showroom floor and parking it at the "sold new car" parking spot..I am having so much fun with this car, the response on the accelerator is amazing, you can acctually feel the turbocharger kick in as u accelerate. I am still trying to get the feel of the clutch, especially first gear(havn't driven a stick-shift since like 2000)...everything about this car is sweet.
I must say though, if you gonna buy this car get the GT model, the leather seat is very comfortable, the ney advance key is really cool.

krzyss

but does it mean that MA drivers are more mature than CT ones?
I do not think so.
Maybe I am not driving enough of back roads but with 130 miles and after changing job 100 miles round trip commute I have plenty of driving and want to stay home for a change.

Krzys

PS You got big + in my ranking as you are brave enough to admit error and stick around.

PS2 Never ever trust marketing of any vendor in any kind of business.

blueguydotcom

Had it up to over 100, took it on backroads in the hills. I found it understeered. The power was really nice but roadfeel and handling didn't seem as lively (the excessive weight might be partly to blame here) as even the standard Mazda6. I feel Mazda kinda snuffed the fun out of the car - too quiet, too isolated, too much understeer, too soft riding.

FWIW, it's a great car with lots of luxury features. The power's really nice. I still may opt for one and mod it...I've got time to decide.

aviboy97

Had it up to over 100, took it on backroads in the hills. I found it understeered. The power was really nice but roadfeel and handling didn't seem as lively (the excessive weight might be partly to blame here) as even the standard Mazda6. I feel Mazda kinda snuffed the fun out of the car - too quiet, too isolated, too much understeer, too soft riding.

I think with a BOV and some bolt-ons, it will be more fun. I felt the weight, too. I didn't experience understeer, though.

ateixeira

A Haldex cannot actually be engaged full-time. Otherwise you could not do a U-turn, the axles would bind and the tires would squeel like crazy. You need a center differential to allow the two axles to receive power yet also turn at different rates.

I'd give Subaru the edge for the AWD system, Mazda for the fact that it has stability control.

You were way off on weight distribution, too. Mazda reports a 60/40 nose-heavy split for the MS6 (source: mazdausa.com), while Subaru achieves a much better-balanced 55/45. 60/40 is pretty bad, about what FWD cars obtain. Perhaps the techs offering the class just got a little enthusiastic and exxagerated.

The MS6 does have a few advantages, and I would focus on these if I were selling them:

* more power
* more torque at lower rpm
* 6 speed manual (Subaru gets 6 for MY07)
* more exclusive than the L-GT (but not Spec
* traction/stability control
* telescoping steering wheel
* keyless start
* HIDs
* auto up/down windows
* Sirius radio option
* longer B2B warranty

Subaru counters with these:

* longer powertrain warranty
* more exclusivity for the Spec B model (just 500)
* more sophisticated AWD (rear bias, full-time)
* lower pricing
* choice of all season (GT) or summer tire (Spec
* much better weight distribution
* boxer vs. in-line layout
* wagon bodystyle also available (GT)
* less weight (3300 vs. 3589 lbs)
* much better crash test scores (IIHS Gold rated)

If you think that last one doesn't matter, note that the Mazda6 didn't even make the Silver list. If a consumer comes in with that research I'd try to distract him with a speech about stability control.

Speaking of blogs, that last tid bit came from a Blog:

http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee8db2c

Subaru beat a pair of Audis and the new (more pricey) Passat, not bad.

-juice

aviboy97

Subaru beat a pair of Audis and the new (more pricey) Passat, not bad

Good for Subi. To be honest, I'm really not a fan of Audi, with the S4 being an aception. Also, the VW's are getting really expensive. Not enough price gap between them and Audi.

camarillobrill

The stability control on all mazdas with DSC can be turned off. Simply hold the DSC button down for 8 seconds and the control is no more. Makes for great smoke shows with the rx8.......