MAZDASPEED Mazda6

ateixeira

It's often deleted from performance cars because it adds weight and cost, and at the extreme you want to reduce both of those unless they specifically result in performance gains.

STI does not have a moonroof, but the cheaper WRX Limited does, for instance.

Gearing doesn't seem too bad for the type of driving I do. I can't remember the last time I went over 80.

-juice

mz6greyghost

What's the oil change interval?

Same as the regular 6. 7500 miles for "regular service" oil changes, 5000 miles for "severe service" oil changes. I'd probably change the oil after the first 1000 miles, then every 5000 miles after that, no matter how hard I'd drive it...

kronogoose

Keymaster:

Thanks for the photographic evidence! I was trying to imagine what would have happened if a cop pulled you over while snapping photos of your tach at 80. "Well, you see officer, I was trying to prove a point." "Whatever. License and registration, please."

Did anyone else see the Motor Trend article comparing the MSP6 to the Legacy spec B? Finally, a comparo that makes sense.

They chose the spec B because is was a better daily driver. The spec B was a bit faster in the straightline (5.4 seconds to 60 vs. 5.8) but the MSP6 was faster through the slalom and stopped shorter. And the 6 was cheaper (I think the spec B lists for $34K+).

Why do they even need to choose a "winner" in these comparos? Why don't they just list the pros and cons of each vehicle and let each driver decide. I guess picking winners makes for controversy and that in turn makes for more sales.

3000 RPM at 80 MPH doesn't seem bad. I think my P5 turns about 3500 RPM at that speed. Hm, maybe I'll have to get my camera and take a photo!

Thanks again, Keymaster.

Greg

keymaster1

are you a WIS in addition to a gearhead??

kronogoose

Um, yes, I am. You know, I recognize the acronym WIS, but I'm still not sure what it stands for!

Have we corresponded before?

Next time, you'll have to take a picture of the watch you were wearing while doing 90!

Greg

crtrptr

I purchased a Speed 6 GT last Friday after much comparison, test-driving, and evaluation of the Acura TL, Lexus IS250 AWD, and BMW 330 AWD, cars perhaps considered above the Speed 6 class. There is no perfect car; each has features and characteristics I wish I could combine into a single machine. I bought the Speed 6 because I thought it was the most car for the money, met more of my criteria, and had the fewest weaknesses of the cars I considered. Though the TL was slightly more fun to drive, I didn't care for its styling, thought its interior was bland, and preferred AWD to front drive. The IS 250 has a more refined and luxurious interior than the MS6 but is seriously underpowered and too harsh-riding for my taste on all but perfectly paved roadway. The BMW, despite its reputation as the ultimate driving machine, I found rather tame, if not boring, in my test drives of several configurations. The clutches were stiff and the shifter throws were long. The interior aesthetics to my taste were ugly, several years behind the competition, and rather cheap-looking -- an over-priced vehicle IMO. I also rejected it because of its poor reputation for reliability. Though the Mazda isn't perfect, when considering its performance, styling, cockpit, and price, it rated No. 1.

ateixeira

Sounds fair, congrats on the new ride!

-juice

keymaster1

No we haven't talked. in looking at your info, it was pretty evident. WIS stands for Watch Idiot Savant.
currently wearing Seiko 5 Sport automatic.
I may have to find a timepiece with red night markings so it matches the dash.

it finally stopped raining after 5 days,I need to go clean my baby.

kronogoose

It's hard to beat Seiko watches for their styling, value and quality. I've had nothing but good luck with them and that 7S36 movement is as reliable as they get. My current "gotta have" watch is the Titoni Pilot, but I may end up with a newer Seiko 5 that looks similar but costs significantly less (at least half the cost of a Titoni).

I know I'm digressing big time here, but I've always found a lot of similarities between watches and cars. In some instances, you're paying more for name and reputation (compare Rolex with Mercedes) or where the car/watch comes from (Swiss watches vs. German cars). And for both, it seems that the Japanese have offered products with comparable features and quality but at a more affordable price (Citizen & Seiko vs. Toyota & Honda). And besides, cars and watches are examples of fascinating modern machines that are fun to study and/or obsess about!

Please keep us updated on your MSP6 experience. I'd be interested in the type of MPG you're getting.

And certainly, if you find a watch with red markings, let me know--my Protege5 has red backlighting, too!

Thanks,

Greg

keymaster1

nice analogies. I can get 8-10 watches of various style for the price of one Rolex.
I have 270 miles on this tank and low fuel light just went on. I think about 19-20 MPG with aggressive driving.

agbasher

crtrptr,

I have been extensively evaluating these same cars.

I have essentially reduced the consideration set to the TL or MS6.

Question for you, how did you get past the creature comforts issue of the MS6 vs. the TL?? The TL comes with so many more interior features. And, isn't the TL faster?

Appreciate additional thoughts.

agbasher

crtrptr

These were my factors:

AWD vs. FWD: I live in the Denver area. Though we have a mostly mild climate, we get the occasional big snow.

I thought the fit and finish of the MS6 was better than the TL. Drove several new TLs; they suffered from various rattles, particularly the driver's door and glove box. The leather in the Acura wears poorly: Looked at several used models, and the driver's seats on low-mileage cars were worn. (Of course, I don't know what will happen over time to the MS6 leather.) I also found the driver's seat more comfortable in the MS6, but that could well be a function of driver size and body shape. My lower back never felt comfortable in TL, no matter how I adjusted seat.

Ugly wheels on TL. Acura really needs to put a better looking standard wheel on the TL (and the RL for that matter) at least IMO.

TL has better sound system and navigation system. No contest here. These were the two features of the TL I wish could be incorporated into MS6.

Styling: I thought the TL's body design ordinary compared to MS6; but styling is always subjective and many would disagree.

Price: Comparably equipped, the MS6 is about $3000 less than TL.

Bottom line: They're both good cars. I doubt somebody who picked one over the other would regret the choice. I felt that over the long haul, the MS6 suited me better.

mz6greyghost

Question for you, how did you get past the creature comforts issue of the MS6 vs. the TL?? The TL comes with so many more interior features. And, isn't the TL faster?

In terms or performance, it's a draw. The last time C&D did an 0-60 on a TL, they got 5.9 seconds, which is about the same as a MS6 GS. Other performance numbers are very similar, so it'd be more of a drivers race on a head-to-head comparison.

In terms of the rest of the car, it's honestly your call. If you like the added luxury that Acura gives you, with a smart-looking interior, great materials, decent fit-and-finish, and more passenger room, that's your pick. I've both new and used model TLs and I think the interior is first-class. The only drawbacks I see are the FWD (and the occasional torque steer under hard acceleration) and the handling associated with FWD (nose-heavy, tending more to understeer). You CAN get a 6-speed manual, which is a plus in my book.

The MS6 is more raw around the edges (taunt suspension, rougher ride, louder at speed), but it has the advantage of AWD, and the material materials and fit-and-finish SHOULD hold up pretty well, considering the almost-two-year-old 6 I have still looks as good as new after 23K miles. Even with all options, you'll still save a couple grand over the TL as well.

Again, it's a driver choice. Test-drive both cars as much as possible, in all weather and road conditions, and decide for yourself which one suits you better. Either way, you can't go wrong. :shades:

blueguydotcom

The interiors on the two cars, for me, are a wash. I'll take the comfort access/keyless go feature over Acura's worthless dvd-audio. I like bluetooth in the tl but beyond that, the ms6 has everything else I need - six speed, leather, power seats, climate control. Good enough for me.

As for speed, the TL is not as fast as an Ms6 in real world/performance driving, plus it's stuck with FWD and torque steer. No thanks. different kinda car. the tl is a blvd cruiser lacking any performance but straightline.

aviboy97

I do not understand why C&D compared the MS6 to the Honda Accord, VW Jetta, Pontiac G6 and the Acura TSX. Non of those cars are turbo...non are AWD. What Mazda compares their car to are completly different vehicles. Ones that actually have the similar systems, and power plants. It just does not seem to be an accurate comparison.
In all actuality, you can compare any car against any car you want. It's your personal preferance. But, when you are a major publishing periodical, such as C&D, you would think they would actually compare it to cars that it was built to compete against??? I think C&D might get some letters to the editor about why they chose the vehicles they did in this issue.

evaddave

The Jetta GLI in that comparison was also a turbo. Their selection criteria was basically this:
- 4-door sedan
- manual transmission
- MSRP under $30k

Personally I'm glad the MS6 didn't win the Car and Driver comparison. And I'm glad it didn't win the comparison with the Subie mentioned above somewhere. Not winning means less demand, and less demand should bring on the incentives sooner.

I'm not sure I agree with the ratings that C/D gave the MS6. For example, they dinged it 2 points for fuel economy, even though it was just a few mpg shy of the leader. They dinged it 3 points for "flexibility," whatever that may be.

The took 5 points off for features/amenities, most likely because it didn't have leather and a sunroof. If they'd gone with the Grand Touring one, then the price would have been too hign to include in the comparison. (Sure the base GT msrp is under $30k, but add almost *any* option, and the price goes over that mark, or for the cheaper options, add two of them. And try to find a GT w/o any options.)

One thing that seemed to be lacking from the ratings was the MS6 being the only one with AWD.

-Dave

blueguydotcom

I do not understand why C&D compared the MS6 to the Honda Accord, VW Jetta, Pontiac G6 and the Acura TSX. Non of those cars are turbo...non are AWD.

Gee, that'd be one other car. In the real world people tend to shop price ranges and body styles/configurations over things like NA, Turbo, 4, 6, etc. Yes you'll help people who insist on RWD or a manual or a V6 but for the most part people tend to zero in on price and configuration (2 door, 4 door, convertible). In this case, small, semi-sporty 4 door sedans over 25k and less than 30-32k.

The Mazdaspeed6 will be compared to these cars by buyers. No it's supposed "limited nature" (5000 units isn't rare) will make no difference to buyers.

you would think they would actually compare it to cars that it was built to compete against???

The Legacy GT. And...right, nothing else. I've driven all the cars mentioned in the comparo BUT the G6 manual (probably will never drive it, it's american). Heck when i compare cars it's based on the drive, so I test everything. Yes, I compared a Mazda3 at 20k to a 330i at 41k. And more expensive cars too. The Mazdaspeed was driven and I've had my hands on Accords, GLIs and TSXs.

I think C&D might get some letters to the editor about why they chose the vehicles they did in this issue.

They will get letters no matter which story they print. That proves nothing. Just as the comparo proves nothing. In the end buyers purchase what they are willing to pay for.

gee35coupe

I bet the TL would be a better car. Noise levels, gas mileage, and (as the 5-60 test proved) the V6 probably has better power delivery characteristics than the Mazda's turbo. Considering the MS6 is mainly FWD with RWD as a "backup", by the time you get to the type of driving where the AWD advantage shines through, you probably aren't driving in a "real world" manner.

Additionally, unless they've upgraded the 6's audio system considerably, "worthless" adequately describes it. Whereas the one in the TL has been applauded in more than a couple of reviews.

ccletzgo

has any one else noticed the slight sound of wind? I thought it was just the drivers side, but today my daughter kept checking to see if the window was up all the way on the passengers side. I am calling the dealer tomorrow to have them check it out. I drove a Lincoln before my speed6, so I thought it may be that I was just used to such quiet. BUT today, with daughter in the passenger seat, i figure it may need some looking at............... :confuse:

keymaster1

I don't think better is the right word. Different would be more appropriate.
I looked at the TL and the MS6 as cars that could hold three kids in back, have a 6 speed, annd be capable through some moderate snow.
In terms of size and luxury, the TL has an advantage. Amenities are close to a wash. TL has the better NAV and blue tooth as well as ipod connectivity. Mazda has keyless system(I'm liking it better all the time), and at least the theoretic advantage of AWD.
The factor that pushed me to the Mazda was driver involvement. Yes, the two cars are about equal in terms of acceleration numbers, but the feel of getting there is just more intense in the Mazda. Acura is almost too efficient/refined. The TL is probably better suited to its automatic tranny. The 6sp was put in as an attempt to hold onto drivers like us. The MS6 has a different target. Hence , no availabilty of automatic. Designed from the get go to be a driver first kind of car.

For me , the adrenaline rush from the Mazda beat out the "better" TL. but it was close.

aviboy97

I need to correct myself. The VW GLI is a turbo....also after reading the article again, I really DO think C&D were kinda accurate. This was a test of $30k and under vehicles. The MS6 GT is $31,600 w/o nav. So, I can see why it didnt place 1st. Although, I do think it should have finnished better then 4th. Atleast 2nd. But, hey, these comparos really don't mean much.

sukispeed

The MS6 is $30,485 with out Nav. but with Destination.

I do not think they compared this car to the right Group of cars. If you want a MS6 you are going to look at cars in the same price range that have similar performance, but
another thing you are going to consider is limited availability. The other cars are not special Editions. only 5000 MS6 are be made this year for this country. The others are just the regular run of the mill production. That is want make the Mazda out of place in this Group.
They should have compared it to the Spec-B and the Nissan SE-R.

aviboy97

The MS6 is $30,485 with out Nav. but with Destination.


A MS6 Grand Touring with a moonroof, no nav is $30,485 MSRP....with extras, ones we have here, are $31,600 (CAD mirror, wheel locks...etc.) You know, only being a measly $485 over $30K, you think they might have included the GT, and maybe it would have fared better. But, they didn't, oh well.

crtrptr

I think the MS6 GT should be considered against Lexus IS250 AWD, BMW 3 Series AWD, Acura TL, Infiniti G35 AWD sedan, to name four. These were cars I seriously considered before opting for the Mazda. Prestige aside, I could find nothing compelling in the others that justified the price difference between them and the MS6 GT, with each car having at having pluses and minuses compared to the others. In fact, from a pure driving point of view, I thought the Mazda was the most engaging. I also found its styling to be the most attractive.

blueguydotcom

The mazdaspeed6, regardless of Mazda's claims isn't a special edition either. 5000 copies of a body style that sells fewer than 100k models isn't special.

Cars I considered against the MS6: Acura TSX, TL, CTs, 325i, 330i, G35, A3, A4, GTI, GLI, Accord coupe V6, Miata, Solstice, 300c/Charger, IS350, c class, Legacy GT, WRX, S2000, 350z.

aviboy97

The mazdaspeed6, regardless of Mazda's claims isn't a special edition either. 5000 copies of a body style that sells fewer than 100k models isn't special.

It is a special edition. It's a limited production vehicle, only being produced for 2 years. It has components "special" to this vehicle only, colors that are "special" to this particular edition of 6. This is not a vehicle you can just sit on and wait a few years to buy. The only claim, and I've seen you write it numerous times, is "5000 copies is not rare". In comparison to the production of less then 100K units this may be true, but, it's the availability of only 5000 to the public with makes it "special".

blueguydotcom

It is a special edition. It's a limited production vehicle, only being produced for 2 years.

and how much longer will this Mada6 body design be around? two years?

It has components "special" to this vehicle only, colors that are "special" to this particular edition of 6.

All of those things one could say about a Honda Accord V6 with a manual...different tires, brakes, engine.

This is not a vehicle you can just sit on and wait a few years to buy. T....it's the availability of only 5000 to the public with makes it "special".

Considering how poorly the mazda6 sells, yes, you can wait. After enthusiasts get their pickings, many Mazdaspeed6s will languish on lots just like the Mazdaspeed Pro and Miata. We're talking Mazdas, not Ferraris. If Mazda has a car without an incentive, it's because the car's brand new. And actually the Madaspeed6 launched with a lease incentive. The dealer I test drove through strongly suggested the lease as it gave buyers something like 2k off the sticker instantly.

Mazda builds fun cars. But they're not the kind of cars most Americans want. Too much sport, not enough banality.

audia8q

Considering how poorly the mazda6 sells

The car is exceeding Mazda's expectations...so I wouldn't exactly say it's selling poorly.

aviboy97

and how much longer will this Mada6 body design be around? two years?

The current body design will probably end in '07, with a redesign in '08, but there is no plan for an '08 MS6. So, therefor the MS6 is a SPECIAL edition.

All of those things one could say about a Honda Accord V6 with a manual...different tires, brakes, engine

Is the Accord V6 only being made for 2 years? Are there ONLY 5000 being made? I think not....


Listen, as you have stated so many times now, "5000 out of 100K is not special..." That is the ONLY point you made about a vehicle being labeled "special". However, you do make a good point about 5000 out of 100K. There are other factors, not just statistical numbers on paper that reflect a percentage of sales. Such as engine, body design, colors, and limited availability. A vehicle that will only be around for a short time can also be considered "special"

aviboy97

The car is exceeding Mazda's expectations...so I wouldn't exactly say it's selling poorly.

Yes, Mazda is happy with the sales, but, are really aiming for the M6 to be the flagship in sales. Right now, the M3 is outselling the M6...Mazda does not like that. Although, they could not be happier with how popular the M3 is.

You also have to remember, Mazda is very small here in North America. They will never boast sales like Honda or Toyota. Improvement in sales year to year is what they look for, and since 2003, they have gone up every year.

blueguydotcom

Avi,

Lets agree to disageee. 5k of a model isn't a special edition. And when it comes on a car that has already had incentives, I'm not buying for one second that there is anything special about the MS6.

The MS6 is fun and different from the run-of-the-mill Mazda6. We should just agree to that.

epaiuk

I actually own a 2004 TL, albeit in automatic, and couldn't be happier. Having seen the MS6, though not driven it, the interior appointments are not even in the same class. The interior feels tighter, the quality of the leather is inferior. The audio system in the TL is superb, with it matching audiophile home systems in quality. However, this is a big car, and while it handles well, it simply isn't that nimble. If you want to nail it on the highway in high style, this is for you; if you want to carve back country roads, you may want to consider something else. Don't forget that reliability and residual values are stronger on the TL......good luck!

aviboy97

agreed!

audia8q

How positive is everyone about 5000 units??? According to one of the sales planning managers I spoke with today the number isnt correct. He is getting me the exact number so I will report back.

aviboy97

I heard 6000/yr for 2 yrs back in November at the drive event in Dallas TX

camarillobrill

ahh- the drive in texas back in NOv. I havent even bothered getting into another one since then.....it wouldnt be the same!

aviboy97

nothing like beating on a car that is not yours!

gee35coupe

They are changing the Accord for 08 so it will be a 2 year run of this version 6MT. And I bet there won't be many more than 6000-10000 built in the sedan. I know the coupe is hard enough to come by even in the 4 cylinder 5 speed.

blwinner

THIS CAR COMPARES, OR TRIES, TO THE LEGACY GT SEDAN(OR THE SPEC . LEGACY GT IS FASTER, EASIER TO LIVE WITH, AND HAS MORE LUXURY. WHY COMPARE TO BOY RACERS?!

aviboy97

Last I read the MS6 was faster then the Legacy GT. In the quarter mile and 0-60. The spec B has no engine improvements for this model year. Also, in terms of luxury, I would not say it has MORE. It does have duel climate, which the MS6 does not. But the MS6 has the option of Nav, not in the 2006 Legacy GT.

krzyss

capital letters?

Krzys

camarillobrill

not sure if the sub legacy gt that you speak of is the same I drive at the MS6 drive in texas, but the sub I DID drive handled poorly compared to the MS6.

aviboy97

not sure if the sub legacy gt that you speak of is the same I drive at the MS6 drive in texas, but the sub I DID drive handled poorly compared to the MS6.

Since the drive event in TX, I have driven the Sub Legacy GT manual. The acceleration was much better, it's a nice responsive engine. Although, the handling was very mushy, a lot of body roll. But, that car is not designed to have the tight suspention like the MS6. But, that is why Subaru has the Spec B. I'm sure that one handles much better.

scooterz

I find it interesting that noone has compared or cross shopped this with the Volvo S40 T5 AWD. Same family, but of course a different platform base (M3). Both have the Haldex AWD, Turbo, luxo appointments, sport suspension. The MS6 is a little bigger, but not by much, especially if you are only concerned with the view from the driver's seat. Marketing and image is even similar with Volvo pushing for the younger crowd with the ads.

sunbyrne

Funny you should mention that--I've been cross-shopping the two. Unfortunately, I haven't yet had the chance to drive a MS6, and the only T5 the dealer near me had on the lot was an automatic--though the Volvo dealer just called and said a stick just came in and would I like to drive it? Still no AWD, though, that's *really* hard to find around here.

The S40 is definitely smaller: 10.5" shorter and almost 150 lbs. lighter, though the Volvo is about an inch taller. The Volvo handles quite well though the ride can be punishing on rough road. It drives a lot like a Mazda3 (not a surprise, given the common platform), but of course it's noticeably faster and more luxurious.

The MS6 is certainly faster by the numbers, which is not a big surprise given the higher HP and torque. IIRC, C&D quarter-mile for the MS6 was 14.0 and the R&T quarter-mile for the S40 AWD was 15.1. I don't remember the 0-60 times.

If you get all the "stuff" on it, the Volvo definitely competes with the Acura TL and the Infiniti G35 (other cars I've been looking at) in terms of luxury. However, a lot of the luxo features on the Volvo are options, and expensive ones at that. If you load up the S40 to compete with the TL or the G35 on those features, it's easily $35K on the sticker (though I'm told Volvo dealers will indeed deal). Seems a bit pricey to me. However, Volvo also offers an amazingly cool overseas delivery option, where you pay less than invoice for the car and they pick up your plane tickets to Sweden. That seems like a much better deal to me...

Anyway, the thing that appeals to me about the S40 is that right now I drive a Protege5, and while I love the car in many ways it's just simply too slow and lacks some of the safety and luxury features I'd like; if it had those, it'd be terrific. I think the S40 is the closest thing I can get to that, but I'm going to reserve full judgment until I have a chance to drive the MS6.

scooterz

I actually have the S40 T5 AWD, but I am very intrigued by the MS6, that's why I'm looking here. I actually had the M6 wagon in Europe and liked it a lot. I was an Expat in Denmark and bought the Volvo while I was there through Volvo's overseas program. If you do it, you will not regret it. You can get a loaded S40 AWD for $30K, about the same as the MS6. If you wait a little on the MS6, the prices will come down when the dealers move off of MSRP. Similar effect to the RX8 when it first came out. After the "I gotta haves", then the pricing will cool off. Except for not having the snap your neck power, I am very satisfied as it meets/exceeds all my other needs very well. I just hope the MS6 will be around when I get out of the S40.

sunbyrne

Yep, OSD definitely makes the S40 more affordable, but my understanding is that Mazda is honoring s-plan on the MS6, so the MS6 would still be cheaper for me since I'm eligible.

ateixeira

Head to head, the Subaru was even quicker (surprise!), 5.4 vs. 5.8 seconds to hit 60mph. Close overall race. The issue just came out.

aviboy: the Spec B does have NAV, in fact NAV is standard.

Also, they're only making 500, so it's more exclusive than the Speed. The dark red seats make it obvious it's not your basic GT, as do the big rims.

I see the Volvo S40 and VW Jetta GLI as smaller sedans that try to be more upscale, so the prices end up closer. But neither is as focused on performance as the Speed6 (or the Spec .

-juice

aviboy97

but my understanding is that Mazda is honoring s-plan on the MS6, so the MS6 would still be cheaper for me since I'm eligible.

The problem with that is finding a dealer that will honor the s-plan. Dealers have the right to refuse an s-plan

I know my dealership is refusing s-plan on MS6's. My recommendation is calling around to see what dealers will except it.

aviboy97

the Spec B does have NAV, in fact NAV is standard.

Good to know. I was refering to the regular Legacy GT, I don't think Nav is an option on that.

I know the Spec B is more exclusive, that goes without saying simply because of the numbers produced.

What issue of what magazine has the comparo?