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Comments
STI does not have a moonroof, but the cheaper WRX Limited does, for instance.
Gearing doesn't seem too bad for the type of driving I do. I can't remember the last time I went over 80.
-juice
Same as the regular 6. 7500 miles for "regular service" oil changes, 5000 miles for "severe service" oil changes. I'd probably change the oil after the first 1000 miles, then every 5000 miles after that, no matter how hard I'd drive it...
Thanks for the photographic evidence! I was trying to imagine what would have happened if a cop pulled you over while snapping photos of your tach at 80. "Well, you see officer, I was trying to prove a point." "Whatever. License and registration, please."
Did anyone else see the Motor Trend article comparing the MSP6 to the Legacy spec B? Finally, a comparo that makes sense.
They chose the spec B because is was a better daily driver. The spec B was a bit faster in the straightline (5.4 seconds to 60 vs. 5.8) but the MSP6 was faster through the slalom and stopped shorter. And the 6 was cheaper (I think the spec B lists for $34K+).
Why do they even need to choose a "winner" in these comparos? Why don't they just list the pros and cons of each vehicle and let each driver decide. I guess picking winners makes for controversy and that in turn makes for more sales.
3000 RPM at 80 MPH doesn't seem bad. I think my P5 turns about 3500 RPM at that speed. Hm, maybe I'll have to get my camera and take a photo!
Thanks again, Keymaster.
Greg
Have we corresponded before?
Next time, you'll have to take a picture of the watch you were wearing while doing 90!
Greg
-juice
currently wearing Seiko 5 Sport automatic.
I may have to find a timepiece with red night markings so it matches the dash.
it finally stopped raining after 5 days,I need to go clean my baby.
I know I'm digressing big time here, but I've always found a lot of similarities between watches and cars. In some instances, you're paying more for name and reputation (compare Rolex with Mercedes) or where the car/watch comes from (Swiss watches vs. German cars). And for both, it seems that the Japanese have offered products with comparable features and quality but at a more affordable price (Citizen & Seiko vs. Toyota & Honda). And besides, cars and watches are examples of fascinating modern machines that are fun to study and/or obsess about!
Please keep us updated on your MSP6 experience. I'd be interested in the type of MPG you're getting.
And certainly, if you find a watch with red markings, let me know--my Protege5 has red backlighting, too!
Thanks,
Greg
I have 270 miles on this tank and low fuel light just went on. I think about 19-20 MPG with aggressive driving.
I have been extensively evaluating these same cars.
I have essentially reduced the consideration set to the TL or MS6.
Question for you, how did you get past the creature comforts issue of the MS6 vs. the TL?? The TL comes with so many more interior features. And, isn't the TL faster?
Appreciate additional thoughts.
agbasher
AWD vs. FWD: I live in the Denver area. Though we have a mostly mild climate, we get the occasional big snow.
I thought the fit and finish of the MS6 was better than the TL. Drove several new TLs; they suffered from various rattles, particularly the driver's door and glove box. The leather in the Acura wears poorly: Looked at several used models, and the driver's seats on low-mileage cars were worn. (Of course, I don't know what will happen over time to the MS6 leather.) I also found the driver's seat more comfortable in the MS6, but that could well be a function of driver size and body shape. My lower back never felt comfortable in TL, no matter how I adjusted seat.
Ugly wheels on TL. Acura really needs to put a better looking standard wheel on the TL (and the RL for that matter) at least IMO.
TL has better sound system and navigation system. No contest here. These were the two features of the TL I wish could be incorporated into MS6.
Styling: I thought the TL's body design ordinary compared to MS6; but styling is always subjective and many would disagree.
Price: Comparably equipped, the MS6 is about $3000 less than TL.
Bottom line: They're both good cars. I doubt somebody who picked one over the other would regret the choice. I felt that over the long haul, the MS6 suited me better.
In terms or performance, it's a draw. The last time C&D did an 0-60 on a TL, they got 5.9 seconds, which is about the same as a MS6 GS. Other performance numbers are very similar, so it'd be more of a drivers race on a head-to-head comparison.
In terms of the rest of the car, it's honestly your call. If you like the added luxury that Acura gives you, with a smart-looking interior, great materials, decent fit-and-finish, and more passenger room, that's your pick. I've both new and used model TLs and I think the interior is first-class. The only drawbacks I see are the FWD (and the occasional torque steer under hard acceleration) and the handling associated with FWD (nose-heavy, tending more to understeer). You CAN get a 6-speed manual, which is a plus in my book.
The MS6 is more raw around the edges (taunt suspension, rougher ride, louder at speed), but it has the advantage of AWD, and the material materials and fit-and-finish SHOULD hold up pretty well, considering the almost-two-year-old 6 I have still looks as good as new after 23K miles. Even with all options, you'll still save a couple grand over the TL as well.
Again, it's a driver choice. Test-drive both cars as much as possible, in all weather and road conditions, and decide for yourself which one suits you better. Either way, you can't go wrong. :shades:
As for speed, the TL is not as fast as an Ms6 in real world/performance driving, plus it's stuck with FWD and torque steer. No thanks. different kinda car. the tl is a blvd cruiser lacking any performance but straightline.
In all actuality, you can compare any car against any car you want. It's your personal preferance. But, when you are a major publishing periodical, such as C&D, you would think they would actually compare it to cars that it was built to compete against??? I think C&D might get some letters to the editor about why they chose the vehicles they did in this issue.
- 4-door sedan
- manual transmission
- MSRP under $30k
Personally I'm glad the MS6 didn't win the Car and Driver comparison. And I'm glad it didn't win the comparison with the Subie mentioned above somewhere. Not winning means less demand, and less demand should bring on the incentives sooner.
I'm not sure I agree with the ratings that C/D gave the MS6. For example, they dinged it 2 points for fuel economy, even though it was just a few mpg shy of the leader. They dinged it 3 points for "flexibility," whatever that may be.
The took 5 points off for features/amenities, most likely because it didn't have leather and a sunroof. If they'd gone with the Grand Touring one, then the price would have been too hign to include in the comparison. (Sure the base GT msrp is under $30k, but add almost *any* option, and the price goes over that mark, or for the cheaper options, add two of them. And try to find a GT w/o any options.)
One thing that seemed to be lacking from the ratings was the MS6 being the only one with AWD.
-Dave
Gee, that'd be one other car. In the real world people tend to shop price ranges and body styles/configurations over things like NA, Turbo, 4, 6, etc. Yes you'll help people who insist on RWD or a manual or a V6 but for the most part people tend to zero in on price and configuration (2 door, 4 door, convertible). In this case, small, semi-sporty 4 door sedans over 25k and less than 30-32k.
The Mazdaspeed6 will be compared to these cars by buyers. No it's supposed "limited nature" (5000 units isn't rare) will make no difference to buyers.
you would think they would actually compare it to cars that it was built to compete against???
The Legacy GT. And...right, nothing else. I've driven all the cars mentioned in the comparo BUT the G6 manual (probably will never drive it, it's american). Heck when i compare cars it's based on the drive, so I test everything. Yes, I compared a Mazda3 at 20k to a 330i at 41k. And more expensive cars too. The Mazdaspeed was driven and I've had my hands on Accords, GLIs and TSXs.
I think C&D might get some letters to the editor about why they chose the vehicles they did in this issue.
They will get letters no matter which story they print. That proves nothing. Just as the comparo proves nothing. In the end buyers purchase what they are willing to pay for.
Additionally, unless they've upgraded the 6's audio system considerably, "worthless" adequately describes it. Whereas the one in the TL has been applauded in more than a couple of reviews.
I looked at the TL and the MS6 as cars that could hold three kids in back, have a 6 speed, annd be capable through some moderate snow.
In terms of size and luxury, the TL has an advantage. Amenities are close to a wash. TL has the better NAV and blue tooth as well as ipod connectivity. Mazda has keyless system(I'm liking it better all the time), and at least the theoretic advantage of AWD.
The factor that pushed me to the Mazda was driver involvement. Yes, the two cars are about equal in terms of acceleration numbers, but the feel of getting there is just more intense in the Mazda. Acura is almost too efficient/refined. The TL is probably better suited to its automatic tranny. The 6sp was put in as an attempt to hold onto drivers like us. The MS6 has a different target. Hence , no availabilty of automatic. Designed from the get go to be a driver first kind of car.
For me , the adrenaline rush from the Mazda beat out the "better" TL. but it was close.
I do not think they compared this car to the right Group of cars. If you want a MS6 you are going to look at cars in the same price range that have similar performance, but
another thing you are going to consider is limited availability. The other cars are not special Editions. only 5000 MS6 are be made this year for this country. The others are just the regular run of the mill production. That is want make the Mazda out of place in this Group.
They should have compared it to the Spec-B and the Nissan SE-R.
A MS6 Grand Touring with a moonroof, no nav is $30,485 MSRP....with extras, ones we have here, are $31,600 (CAD mirror, wheel locks...etc.) You know, only being a measly $485 over $30K, you think they might have included the GT, and maybe it would have fared better. But, they didn't, oh well.
Cars I considered against the MS6: Acura TSX, TL, CTs, 325i, 330i, G35, A3, A4, GTI, GLI, Accord coupe V6, Miata, Solstice, 300c/Charger, IS350, c class, Legacy GT, WRX, S2000, 350z.
It is a special edition. It's a limited production vehicle, only being produced for 2 years. It has components "special" to this vehicle only, colors that are "special" to this particular edition of 6. This is not a vehicle you can just sit on and wait a few years to buy. The only claim, and I've seen you write it numerous times, is "5000 copies is not rare". In comparison to the production of less then 100K units this may be true, but, it's the availability of only 5000 to the public with makes it "special".
and how much longer will this Mada6 body design be around? two years?
It has components "special" to this vehicle only, colors that are "special" to this particular edition of 6.
All of those things one could say about a Honda Accord V6 with a manual...different tires, brakes, engine.
This is not a vehicle you can just sit on and wait a few years to buy. T....it's the availability of only 5000 to the public with makes it "special".
Considering how poorly the mazda6 sells, yes, you can wait. After enthusiasts get their pickings, many Mazdaspeed6s will languish on lots just like the Mazdaspeed Pro and Miata. We're talking Mazdas, not Ferraris. If Mazda has a car without an incentive, it's because the car's brand new. And actually the Madaspeed6 launched with a lease incentive. The dealer I test drove through strongly suggested the lease as it gave buyers something like 2k off the sticker instantly.
Mazda builds fun cars. But they're not the kind of cars most Americans want. Too much sport, not enough banality.
The car is exceeding Mazda's expectations...so I wouldn't exactly say it's selling poorly.
The current body design will probably end in '07, with a redesign in '08, but there is no plan for an '08 MS6. So, therefor the MS6 is a SPECIAL edition.
All of those things one could say about a Honda Accord V6 with a manual...different tires, brakes, engine
Is the Accord V6 only being made for 2 years? Are there ONLY 5000 being made? I think not....
Listen, as you have stated so many times now, "5000 out of 100K is not special..." That is the ONLY point you made about a vehicle being labeled "special". However, you do make a good point about 5000 out of 100K. There are other factors, not just statistical numbers on paper that reflect a percentage of sales. Such as engine, body design, colors, and limited availability. A vehicle that will only be around for a short time can also be considered "special"
Yes, Mazda is happy with the sales, but, are really aiming for the M6 to be the flagship in sales. Right now, the M3 is outselling the M6...Mazda does not like that. Although, they could not be happier with how popular the M3 is.
You also have to remember, Mazda is very small here in North America. They will never boast sales like Honda or Toyota. Improvement in sales year to year is what they look for, and since 2003, they have gone up every year.
Lets agree to disageee. 5k of a model isn't a special edition. And when it comes on a car that has already had incentives, I'm not buying for one second that there is anything special about the MS6.
The MS6 is fun and different from the run-of-the-mill Mazda6. We should just agree to that.
Krzys
Since the drive event in TX, I have driven the Sub Legacy GT manual. The acceleration was much better, it's a nice responsive engine. Although, the handling was very mushy, a lot of body roll. But, that car is not designed to have the tight suspention like the MS6. But, that is why Subaru has the Spec B. I'm sure that one handles much better.
The S40 is definitely smaller: 10.5" shorter and almost 150 lbs. lighter, though the Volvo is about an inch taller. The Volvo handles quite well though the ride can be punishing on rough road. It drives a lot like a Mazda3 (not a surprise, given the common platform), but of course it's noticeably faster and more luxurious.
The MS6 is certainly faster by the numbers, which is not a big surprise given the higher HP and torque. IIRC, C&D quarter-mile for the MS6 was 14.0 and the R&T quarter-mile for the S40 AWD was 15.1. I don't remember the 0-60 times.
If you get all the "stuff" on it, the Volvo definitely competes with the Acura TL and the Infiniti G35 (other cars I've been looking at) in terms of luxury. However, a lot of the luxo features on the Volvo are options, and expensive ones at that. If you load up the S40 to compete with the TL or the G35 on those features, it's easily $35K on the sticker (though I'm told Volvo dealers will indeed deal). Seems a bit pricey to me. However, Volvo also offers an amazingly cool overseas delivery option, where you pay less than invoice for the car and they pick up your plane tickets to Sweden. That seems like a much better deal to me...
Anyway, the thing that appeals to me about the S40 is that right now I drive a Protege5, and while I love the car in many ways it's just simply too slow and lacks some of the safety and luxury features I'd like; if it had those, it'd be terrific. I think the S40 is the closest thing I can get to that, but I'm going to reserve full judgment until I have a chance to drive the MS6.
aviboy: the Spec B does have NAV, in fact NAV is standard.
Also, they're only making 500, so it's more exclusive than the Speed. The dark red seats make it obvious it's not your basic GT, as do the big rims.
I see the Volvo S40 and VW Jetta GLI as smaller sedans that try to be more upscale, so the prices end up closer. But neither is as focused on performance as the Speed6 (or the Spec .
-juice
The problem with that is finding a dealer that will honor the s-plan. Dealers have the right to refuse an s-plan
I know my dealership is refusing s-plan on MS6's. My recommendation is calling around to see what dealers will except it.
Good to know. I was refering to the regular Legacy GT, I don't think Nav is an option on that.
I know the Spec B is more exclusive, that goes without saying simply because of the numbers produced.
What issue of what magazine has the comparo?