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Comments
The hybrid will probably be priced so that you never recover the added initial cost from any gas savings, as all hybrids have been so far.
Mackabee
my .02
:shades:
Mackabee
very impressive scoop. It sounds like Toyota-speak. do you have an 'in' somewhere?
The people who care less about city mileage and more about drag strip times and horsepower bragging rights can get the V6. If they really care, they aren't shopping Camrys.
The difference in 4 cylinder horsepower between it and the Altima is the only one even worth mentioning. They will probably sell more 4 cylinder cars if they get the best gas mileage than if they had 176 HP just to be able to say they have the highest hp, but ended up with the worst mileage.
People who cannot get by with the base 4 cylinder power have both the hybrid and V6 to choose from.
I think the option for those looking for more power is the HSD Camry. If the ICE 4c leaves you 'wanting' how about... 190+ horses and 40 mpg....?
This may be a very astute marketing move for two reasons
A) it doesnt price out the basic CE buyer who doesnt give a hoot about hp. ( why put an Altima-like super I4 in a basic people-mover );
Speculating...
CE $20500
LE $22000
LE HSD $24500
LE V6 $24000
XLE 4c $25000
XLE HSD $27500
XLE V6 $29000
LE on up with 8 A/B std; VSC +$650 if optioned.
If you want power, get the V6.
If you want luxury, get the XLE.
If you want economy, get the Hybrid.
If you want a smooth ride, get any Camry but the SE (and probably that too).
If you want a 5-speed, you can still shop here.
If you want a big back seat your covered, as the current one is very roomy, and the new one trumps that.
I suspect the drivability may be slightly compromised, if weight is up dramatically, power is the same or less, and the tranny is geared for economy, the 4 may lose some sales.
If 268HP is right, I am surprised the power is so close to Avalon.
I would expect a 200-205HP hybrid with 40MPG.
DrFill
To be honest, I'm not impressed with the design after seeing these pictures. The side seems bloated. I HOPE its because of the HORRIBLE color it has.
If V6LE get the same 3.5L engine as SE/XLE, then i am going to get one! (I think 0-60 under 6 sec, low 14s QM ~100mph)I currently drive a 98' LE and hopefully the 07' are not front too heavy which easily understeer in rain/snow even with good set of all-season/snowtire! (maybe i drive it too hard :P )
At least part of the 175 pounds comes from the standard side airbags, so that should be viewed as a plus. Probably another fair chunk comes from added side impact structural reinforcement.
How can the trunk be roomier? I think it's probably higher; the nearly 1-inch lowering of the car refers to its overall height, measured at the roof of course.
As Mackabee points out, the body really is just a refresh of the 2002-06 models. That tells me that the platform underneath almost certainly hasn't changed, except for the modest wheelbase stretch.
I understand that 158hp isnt far behind the other ratings (and actually the Altima is likely less than 175 b/c Nissan hasnt moved to the 'SAE certified' output figures), BUT, coupled with the weight gain, I think it spells poorer acceleration, and thats unacceptable. 75-80% of Camrys sold are 4s. I just dont understand why the Camry I4 falls pretty far short of the ratings of the same engine in the new RAV, for example. I hope that it was a misprint.
And seriously, Toyota should not be lauded for making side curtains standard for 2007. If the company really cared about its customers, it would lead on the safety front, not follow. The Camry SHOULD have had side curtains standard with the 2005 refresh, but the bean counters left the safety card wide open for Honda to claim in that model year, and for Hyundai to take a step further with the 06 Sonata.
For the time being, I will remain unimpressed by the lack of advancement in the 4 cylinder coupled with questionable weight gain.
~alpha
But has anyone considered that the information from that consumer web-site could just be wrong? How many times do we read supposedly factual pre-production information, only to find out that the author really didn't know what he was talking about?
Anyway, I'm not saying it IS wrong. Just that it's a possibility.
Im disappointed with Toyota. The Camry has long been criticsed for a lack of style and the new model doesn't help that out. As an owner of a Camry I like the styling of my cheap, unoptioned base model better.
The front end styling sucks more than the back. The headlight shape looks like an ugly cross between a GS and Azera.
Has anyone seen the interior? Hopefully it is better and more stylish.
I'm going to miss this design.
I don't think they typical 4 cyl buyer will notice or care about the power difference but the bigger V6 will be very attractive to those interested in more competitive power relative to Accord and Altima, especially if the highway mileage rating goes up over 30.
Certainly there's nothing here that's going to cause the Camry to lose its best selling sedan title.
Your point, and those of others are well taken. The Camry is not a hot rod, and perhaps most people wont care. BUT, if that post is CORRECT, and the car beefs up by 175lbs, FOR ME, who was originally interested in the new Camry, especially an economical, fun SE 4, 158 horses may not cut it, and leaves the door wide open Toyota's competitors. It would be nice to see the Camry back on the top of the ratings, like the 3rd generation. I think thats a much harder sell if the new 4s cant even keep pace with the 02-06.
Maybe my concern is exacerbated by the 4th generation Camry 4s, which were so damn slow that I only felt more comfortable if I threw in a few Hail Marys as I passed vehicles with foot to the floor. (That model was timed by C/D from 10.5 to 11 seconds to 60). Folks who participate on boards like these are probably the go to guys for advice when friends/family are looking for cars. I will not spread any good word of mouth about this vehicle if it is as slow as the 4th generation model.
My initial disappointment may also stem from the fact that Toyota's other recent redesigns have been very impressive- Sienna, Avalon, RAV, IS series. OTOH, Toyota never seems to have it all coordinated for the Camry- look at the last generation intro- V6s got the shaft with a carryover 192 horse V6 that didnt even have variable valve timing!
My point: there is only a limited amount of time for which this vehicle will continue to be a blockbuster simply because it is a Toyota Camry. If Toyota is serious about keeping the Camry as a top seller and a benchmark (reign declining lately), we'd get the goods.
~alpha
Loren
An inexpensive Bimmer would be cool.
Loren
We cannot be sure that the hp and the weight numbers that came from the other site are 100% correct anyway since it is so far out in advance of the release of the car and errors or even changes happen. Plus, there is no information about torque and transmission gearing anyway.
Not that it would really matter anyway if the new Camry was tenths of a second slower than an Accord in a 0-60 race.
The vast majority of Camry 4 cylinder automatic buyers do not have 0-60 times in comparison to other cars as a priority. They will drive the car and see if it feels adequate for their daily driving, not race an Accord or Altima or Sonata and make a purchase decision based on which one wins a race.
Even on the V6, many Camry buyers choose the V6 primarily because it's smoother and quieter and might have some luxury features and options on it not available on the 4 cylinder, not for faster acceleration or a higher top speed.
"The vast majority of Camry 4 cylinder automatic buyers do not have 0-60 times in comparison to other cars as a priority. They will drive the car and see if it feels adequate for their daily driving, not race an Accord or Altima or Sonata and make a purchase decision based on which one wins a race."
Yes, correct. BUT- they may test drive these models and find the Camry to be the dog of the group, in which case Toyota faces a problem, hence my statement that the Camry will not retain sales and benchmark status simply because it is a Camry.
This segment is very crowded, and more competitive than ever before. Toyota needs this redesign to be of the same caliber as the dramatically improved Avalon, or else this car will be eclipsed by the next Altima and Accord, which arent too far away.
~alpha
The Altima has the most power, yet still doesn't sell like either Camry or Accord. People with power as a very high priority, do choose the Altima but sales show those people are not the majority.
Looking to the past to predict the future can be a very dangerous game.
Times are changing. What has worked in the past may not work in the future. In the past, you'd not see me mentioning a Ford [Taurus/Fusion] or Hyundai [Sonata] in the same breath as the Camry and Accord. Not so today. A redesign for the Altima is around the corner, and the Accord just a year after that. AND theres a very promising new Saturn coming from GM.
The example you cite re: the Accord- V6s sell in much lower volumes. AND, if you look at individual registrations (discluding the fleet sales that bolster Camry and Corolla numbers signficantly), the Accord outsells the Camry. Additionally, this generation of Camry has seen the highest levels of DTC incentives of any Camry, and you're fooling yourself if you think thats not partly because of the substantially increased sales figures of vehicles like the Altima (compared to that model's previous generation).
~alpha
The vast majority of buyers look at
1 Affordability and Reliability
2 Comfort
3 Style and Economy
4 Features
5 Performance.
I think Toyota intentionally leaves the latter to others in the 4c people-mover segment... which is growing in numbers.
Over 70% of our inventory is the base LE ( now with GY often ) or the standard model ( new CE ). Only the XLE 4c is a relatively high volume seller because of the features inside.
"Actually from daily experience the trend is going the other way. NOone but NOone askes about performance coming to buy a Camry. Only if the buyer last had a 90's vintage 4c and remembers it as a lawnmower booster."
The 4c performance right now, for this generation is NOT an issue (its generally competitve with Altima and Accord) BUT it can become one again if the new generation does not live up to the current. Buyers remember the asthmatic performance of the Gen 4, is this something Toyota wants with its brand new model?
~alpha
In any case, we won't know for sure for 6 months or so.
1. Great word of mouth/satisfied customers.
2. Great showroom traffic, supporting vehicle line-up (Corolla/Avalon).
3. Totally non-offensive ride and styling.
The Accord, if you have noticed it or not, has lost 20-25k units a year in sales since it's most recent redesign. The interior is Acura-quality nice, but the exterior I'm sure turned of some mainstream buyers. The new rear end helps some, and improves trunk space and access.
The Altima is gaining ground, and will pass 250k units this year! I question whether Nissan can garner a repeat of the success story started in '02, as Nissan doesn't have a great history of building on success.
The Aura is nice and all, but with no customer base, and Ion chasing people from showrooms nation wide, so it has a poor lead-in, I would be shocked at anything more than 80k a year. And they won't be Camry shoppers. But it looks like a step in the right direction. Too little, too late, doh :P .
DrFill
Does this mean the Accord is the best selling sedan (when you take away the fleet sales)
Also, you said Toyota has been offering the highest levels of incentives with this generation. Honda seems to be tough on incentives. If this is all true, Honda is doing quite well with the Accord.
Accord and Camry are probably neck and neck in retail sales. I would expect the Altima to peak soon, even after its redesign (which could still be several years away - look how long they delayed the Sentra), and for Sonata to ramp up in sales. The Aura will be an also-ran - no-one shops Saturn any more, and GM will find ways to cheap out unacceptably on that model anyway, I am sure. The new Fusion is decent, but like all the domestic sedans, will probably sell very few of the 4-cylinder models, which will be strictly second-stringers. The V-6s from the domestics are the main reason Toy/Hon do not sell more of their V-6 midsizers, IMO. Since the "Americans" cost less than the "Japanese" V-6 models.
Lastly, there has been a huge flap over fuel economy this year. In fact, it has been cited as the main reason for the severe decline in SUV sales. It is likely this will filter down to all parts of the market. If Camry has near-Corolla fuel economy for the next gen, I think it will be fine if it is just as speedy (or just as slow - pick your perspective) as the current model.
And quite frankly, they BETTER improve it from the current model. Look at the new RAV - it is totally pathetic that the 4-cylinder does only a couple of points better than the V-6 with almost twice the power. This makes the 4-cylinder engine strictly the cheapskate option, rather than the fuel-saving option it could have been. With the new Camry, I expect to see much more of a separation, especially since they have done such a good job with fuel economy on the new Avalon with the same engine.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Unless you only need a highway car, 4 cylinder models will still save plenty in gas.
And sales are down YTD this year, while Camry sales are up 3-4%.
If the mags are correct, and the Accord is so superior to the old Camry, it's sales shouldn't be dropping.
I haven't seen a Camry ad or regional rate/rebate promotion in ages!
DrFill
Go to carsdirect.com and plug in your zip code.
~alpha
My whole point in this argument is that its NOT JUST the Accord and Camry any more. There are more players that are real contenders, and this is being reflected in Accord sales- Honda has chosen to maintain resale and margins per vehicle than make up the volume through discounting and fleet, as Toyota has done.
[Drive the current Accord and drive the current Camry. Aside from ride and quiet, the Accord is the superior of the two.]
With respect to the Camry, I wonder if this redesign will put the vehicle far enough in front of the pack to maintain the best selling title, and regain the status as benchmark. Or, will the vehicle debut and then be successful only with fleet and incentives? Time will tell.
~alpha
Toyota may figure that this is no big deal because economy is still OK and the hybrid will be available for those who want more. I like Toyotas, but I like Hondas too. If the Toyota even loses 1 mpg it is off my list. I just can't in principal support a manufacurer that is going the wrong way.
While I think the 4-cyl hybrid is a much better idea than Hondas V-6 it still has no attraction to me. The added cost is just too high, and the real world improvement over a stick shift equipped 4-cyl will be minimal.
I would be very happy with an Accord - that gets 2 mpg better in the city as it is, and feels a tad peppier (although, as many have stated, this is low on my list).
As for the Accord I do not like the current Accord. The new back clip helps it but its not styled the way it should be. The 96-97 bodystyle was the best looking Accord bodystyle in my opinion.
In the last 9 months as the Camry came into it's lame duck period the incentives have actually been reduced somewhat in comparison to the last 4 years. From memory, in our region the incentive has normally been about $1000. Now it's $750 which is very moderate for what is the highest priced vehicle in the class.
Regarding fleet sales, I recently read in Automotive News that Toyota's fleet sales are about 7%, IIRC, for all Toyotas, not necessarily the Camry by itself.
Honda's fleet sales are minimal, about 1%. The domestic makers, meanwhile, have fleet sales on the order of 20-25%.
I'm considering either a hopefully discounted 2006 LE model or maybe the 2007 LE v6 if they up the fuel economy. What annoyed me about the Avalon was that it had better milleage (22/31mpg), especially in the city. Now that's downright insulting to midsize owners. I DEMAND to have the Avalon's economy and then some 'cause it's a smaller vehicle. To hell with the Malibu and it's pathetic fuel-saving, yet unreliable electric steering.
I hate the way Toyota changed the looks of their bread n' butter car to make it look more sporty. Wrong direction IMHO. I'm ok with the front but the rear is almost a copy of the Avalon. I sincerely hope it doesn't compromise cargo space. Look at the Avalon: 14.4 cu ft.
I'm no engineer, but I hope the lengthening of the wheelbase doesn't reduce the already-impressive turning radius of the camry LE. I also liked the higher roofline as it helped even things out with all these taller sedans on the road and gives more headroom. I prefer comfort as opposed to style. My 2 cents only.
What I want:
standard four wheel discs that are larger
LASER cruise control (like on Avalon)
torquey 4 banger
wider car, if ain't gonna be longer
stronger sheet metal for higher side impact protection
A continuation of the good turning circle
Perhaps those high-intensity discharge lamps (aka blinders)
What I don't want:
smaller trunk
less headroom
jagged shifter
It will almost certainly have better side impact protection. I'd still expect rear drum brakes on the lower line 4-cylinders.
Some of those things will be on the new Camry, the rest you need to just get an Avalon instead of expecting everything the Avalon has to be on the cheaper Camry.
Why would anyone buy an Avalon in that case?
Do you think Toyota wants to kill the sales of the Avalon by putting all the features of an Avalon on another car selling for thousands less?