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Comments
We always have the option to make our decisions based on our gut feelings and desires alone, leaving any and all potential information out of the equation. (In fact, from studies, personal experience, and reading these forums, it should be clear that car-buying is much more an emotional decision process than it is a rational one!) But, if we even want to imagine that we are being a little wise about this (remembering that there ain't no guarantees of flawless results), we will take all of the available info into account.
Personally, I think the signs are clear: there is not as much of a quality gap out there as there once was. The reputations and expectations remain, but the reality is far less definitive than ever before.
Now, I wouldn't swear off a manufacturers brand because of a few small problems. But, you put enough small problems together and it becomes a major problem. Especially with a new vehicle.
I would think the factor that would MOST influence long-term reliability(3-5years down the road) would be initial quality. Initial quality also factors in mechanical components/reliability as well as fit and finish.
Wow I couldn't have said it better! These forums bring out the worst kind of imformation. It's the same people spreading there own truths! I really think quality after looking at all the sources is getting better from all companies. The american companies are right there on most of there cars. I didn't look at the other cars because of the of Honda's packaging and VSA plus I liked the ride. I haven't had any issues with my car. But that is my personal experience. I really believe Honda will get to the bottom of these nagging issues and in the longterm most Odyssey will have good reliability!
Rorr:
You have made your stand crystal clear. Your stance can be summarized as follows:
You do not associate Quality with the price of the vehicle. All vehicles (15K to 100K) have defects. You do not care about fit and finish issues. Rattles, Squeaks and battery issues in new vhicles are "minor". The JD Powers Quality rankings are "biased" as they based on owners high "expectations".
The majority of the vehicle owners would disagree with your stance.
Lets agree to disagree on this!
Lets move on to more substantive issues: Is the 2005 Ody a lemon?
I respectfully disagree. Having small, moderate and/or major problems are no reason to get angry. A dealership's and/or Honda's RESPONSE to these problems however can certainly be grounds for anger.
All manufacturer's do what they can to eliminate problems in cars before they leave the factory. Yet, to paraphase, 'stuff happens'. That's what warantees are for. However, it is when first the dealership and then corporate drags their feet to resolve issues, that is the time for upset/angry owners.
Personally, we had two problems with the sliding doors on our Odyssey. The first problem was the driver's side door which would not reliably unlatch and power open. The dealer adjusted the door and the problem has not reoccurred in the last 6 months. The second problem was a slight screeching sound when the passenger sliding door opened. Turns out the door track was getting caked with dust (we live down a dirt driveway nearly 1 mile long), and we found out the exposed track was subject to dust buildup. I now pay extra attention to the track when I wash the van and haven't had that recur either.
Also, a lot of the complaints I think may be getting registered with JD Powers is due to the real world gas mileage. Our mileage also started a bit lower than expected (around 19 mpg combined) but has been creeping up lately to around 21 mpg combined. Is it as good as hoped? No. But I'm not wouldn't have wasted my time listing this as a 'defect' in a survey. However, I think that due to 'expectations' many many people would. Fair?
Not for me to decide what is 'fair' in other owners minds. Just as it's not for me to decide what constitutes a 'defect' in other owners minds. All I'm doing is pointing out that it is plausible that high expectations (perhaps unreasonably so) could be resulting in more adverse reactions to minor problems than the problems warrant.
False. I just think that the items you listed shouldn't be 'expected' of any vehicle, regardless of it's price. Also, don't mix the concepts of 'quality' with 'reliability'.
"You do not care about fit and finish issues."
Also false. I DO care about fit and finish issues. I just don't think that items like interior panel gap are necessarily a good indication of whether or not I may have an assortment of mechanical problems 3 years down the road.
"Rattles, Squeaks and battery issues in new vhicles are "minor".
Um, yes. What would you consider a 'minor' defect? A loose thread in the back of a seat?
"The JD Powers Quality rankings are "biased" as they based on owners high "expectations".
To clarify; they aren't BASED on high expectations. I'm asserting that they are AFFECTED by high expectations. Two very different things. Are you saying that owners expectations would not in any way affect the results of a survey?
"Lets move on to more substantive issues: Is the 2005 Ody a lemon?"
By 'lemon' do you mean that the entire line are plagued by unsolvable problems? No. Are SOME 2005 Odyssey's 'lemons'? Sure, I imagine there are a few with problems which the dealers and/or Honda have not been able to resolve. Are some '05 Siennas, MPV's, Quests, DCX's, etc. etc. 'lemons'? I imagine so.
I always appreciate it when someone writes that they "respectfully disagree" with something I have written. Thats a classy way to conduct business here at the town hall. I may have to try it myself someday.
Have yourself a good day Mr. rorr...and good luck with your Ody.
1) Does anybody know why the HP is now 244? I am fine with the reduced HP. I just want to know the story behind the decrease. Will this improve the gas mileage or it wont make any difference?
2) The TPMS is still only available on the Touring model. I was expecting Honda to jump the competition and make this a standard feature. The NHTSA mandate requires all manufacturers to offer this as a standard feature with the 2007 year models.
It is really great to see such a great discussion on the thread So many 05 recalls making me nervous, which I originally posted. I would like to update you all on my situation. Yesterday, I bought the van and I am now a proud owner of an 05 Odyssey EX-L RES & NAV. I have driven the van about 50 miles (the odometer reads 56 now, had 6 to start with). I am really LOVING THE VAN and the drive. Yes, I did notice that the glove compartment is couple of mm misaligned, but since I knew that this could happen, I am not totally surprised and upset. It would be nice if it weren't that way, but...I am okay with it. Also, as I checked most of the other problems (other folks have posted here), I could not find any (hope it stays that way).
More about JD Power rating: When I put the ratings of 11 minivans on a spreadsheet, it is really interesting. Kia Sedona is the only other van that received a 2 star for the overall rating, all other received higher. I will try to post the spreadsheet I created, later.
I am in contact with JD Power as to the source of the rating and how they did it. Because I am really curious about their rating. I have received some responses to the emails that I sent them and waiting for a more specific answer, which I will share with the forum if I hear back from them. Apparently, they did a study called APEAL that is the source of this rating for the 05 Odyssey. This study is based on responses from 102,951 new-vehicle owners who were surveyed during the first 90 days of ownership. What I could not find, and has an email to JD Power, is that -- did non-Odyssey owners ranked 05 Ody or not! This would be the only way to explain (at least to me) that 05 Ody could receive a 2 star for styling/exterior (in one of the eight categories in the survey). Only other possibility is that people who liked the styling/exterior to begin with after buying the van really got VERY mad that it has so many problems, and gave styling/exterior a low rating (even though the style/exterior did not change in 90 days!). I really cannot imagine people will buy a van and would rate 2 star (on average) as far as styling/exterior goes.
Interestingly enough, JD Power did another APEAL study in China earlier this year, and Honda Odyssey got the highest rating! Here is the link:
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005037&search=1
Anyway, will keep you all posted. In the meanwhile, let's keep the great discussion going.
BTW, here is my price breakdown (posted in Price paid...forum as well):
Model: EX-L RES & NAV
Color: Slate Green/Olive
Price breakdown:
============================
Vehicle (with destination): $31,263.64
Sales tax (6%):...................1,875.81
Tire tax:....................................1.25
============================
Total (OTD):.....................$33,140.70
============================
Note: No documentation or processing fee.
Included with the vehicle (free):
1. All season weather mat
2. Mud flaps.
A friend (who have a 2004 Ody) told me that I could probably sell my new van for a profit
Would bet my next paycheck it's not the same Oddy made in NA.
I have no idea what version of the Odyssey that Honda is selling in China. But I doubt the Chinese have the same 'supersize me' mindset that we have here in the states and would probably be more receptive to the smaller Odyssey manufactured in Japan.
Only for those manufacturers who did certain tricks to boost the rating.
For example BMW were always very conservatively rated (older 184BHP 325 accelerates better then many cars rated 50HP higher with the same weight). They never cared about the actual number, unlike the HP-"war" between some family sedans.
http://world.honda.com/news/2005/4050228.html
This is NOT our Odyssey.
Excellent point. I had conveniently forgetten that some manufacturer's have a history of being fairly conservative with their ratings. Just goes to show that one shouldn't do all their 'test driving' using spec. sheets.
LOL unless your being paid to be a professionial Forum columnist. Your company might want some of that money back!!
Mine has the same thing, All the hondas I looked at had that gap. Closes fine and looks ok. I bet they will change that design!!
Many manufacturers will be restating HP this year.
Yes, it got recalled. Shouldn't have happened but aren't you at least a bit reassured that Honda spotted a potentialproblem and took pro-active measures?
Honda didn't make that battery. It came from a supplier and once in a blue moon a battery will be defective right out of the box. I'm sure they replaced it at no charge, right?
A steering wheel vibration at 60MPH is caused by an unbalanced wheel and tire assembly. A wheel weight probably fell off during transit. The PDI tech probably didn't drive it fast enough to feel the vibration.
Check engine light? Who knows? It seems anything can trigger these from a loose gas cap on up.
Hopefully you can see the good in your new Odyssey!
Life is short...enjoy!
Honda will recall some 2005 model-year Odyssey minivans for a problem with airbag sensors. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has ordered the recall of 85,154 Odysseys from the current model year because of a potential airbag sensor defect. The sensors may not be sealed properly, NHTSA says, and as a result, the sensors could corrode and contribute to an airbag system failure. The recall is due to begin by the end of the month.
It is not a perfect world. Fix it and move on. It is still the best van IMHO. And only time will tell how the 2005 odyssey holds up against its competition. I don't regret the purchase for 1 second.
Another dealer 40 miles away got four 2006 models in today as I found out by phone inquiry. They don't know the price, configuration nor can they even tell me the color/trim, etc. They invited me to drive the 75 miles tomorrow of course just so I could see for myself.
I'm patient and don't even want to by for another 1-2 months but it seems in a customer oriented industry dealers should be more in tune with what customers want, how and when the want it. Breaking those rules means a soured relationship from onset.
This is indicative of the holier than thou, are you good enough to plunk your money down and wait, pay MSRP or above attitude that is apparent regarding '06 models and from previous experiences, Honda in general. Anyone else feeling the same pains? I've VERY savvy at dealing with these clowns but prefer to shop aloof at first to get a little competitive bidding going before visiting. Are my expectations too high along with the vehicle demand to try it this way?
Constructive advice appreciated, other advice tolerated, LOL.
The Pax tires concerned me too and I wanted a little more data on those, since we travel 3000 miles to Florida at least once a year.
I couldnt see paying more and giving up a seat.
You are speaking my mind. We also wanted the 8th seat and could not find a better deal and configuration than EX-L RES NAV. Minivans are poeple mover (along with all the fun and excitement of driving them), so, if one can have an additional seat when needed, which can be removed if not needed, why not have the feature in a $30+K vehicle.
BTW, I have posted another question in the audio video category, would appreciate if you could look and respond (related to XM radio in the NAV models). Understand if you don't have time. No prob. Thanks in advance.
The details were
Mechanical quality
Feature and Accessory Quality
Body and Interior Quality
Sienna was rated five stars in all categories
Odyssey was rated 4 stars, 3 stars, and 2 stars respectively in the above 3 categories.
Any comments to the above would be greatly appreciated. If quality is as bad as JD Powers indicated for Odyssey, I can't understand why Odyssey is a hot buy??
Yes, it is disturbing for current and potential 05 Odyssey owners to see such a low rating from a reputable agency. But, then again, there are other reputable agencies - like edmunds.com, car and driver, etc., who gave Odyssey a very high rating. Plus you probably have noticed that in edmunds.com 05 Odyssey scored 9.1 rating from the owners.
JD Power gave 2004 Odyssey a five star rating. Giving 2005 Odyssey a two star rating (to me) really does not make much sense. Also, you will notice that in JD Power, 05 Odyssey scored a two star in styling/exterior category. My question is that how owners can rate the styling/exterior a two star - did they never liked the style of the van, but still bought it? Did they never looked at the exterior when they bought the van and discovered there are a lot of problems (for example, paint, etc.) after they drove the van home? Or, did the style/exterior changed after they bought the van :confuse: . Or, they were so upset with other problems, they forgot that they liked the style but gave it a two star anyway. To me, only the last option is logical. But, then you can also guess what kind of people rated the Odyssey. For example, if I were in the survey and bought the van because I liked the style/exterior (along with Honda reliability, etc.), but were really unhappy because there are many problems, I would give other categories a low rating, but would not give style/exterior a low rating (but that is just me). Maybe the survey for the Odyssey went to a very small group of people and most had problems with their Odyssey and gave it a low score. (JD Power only surveyed owners in first 90 days, they did not do their own testing).
And, it is true that when a model is newly redesigned, it will have some problems, and they have been taken care of as the year progressed. Otherwise, if 05 Honda Odyssey truly deserved a two star rating with lots of lots or problems, we would have seen (one would think) some significant changes in the 06 model, which there is none.
Therefore, it is up to you - whether you want to believe one source (JD Power) who rated 05 Odyssey a two star OR you want to believe other sources, Honda's reliability (one may argue, but look at 2004 Odyssey rating), along with strong market demand, which suggests that Odyssey is one of the better minivans in the market right now.
By the way, according to JD Power the only other van got an overall two star was Kia Sedona. Do you really think Kia Sedona and Honda Odyssey can be compared to side by side and have a similar rating?
Good luck!
[Disclaimer: this week, I bought my 05 Odyssey - EX-L RES NAV. I liked the 'PlusOne' seat and the fact that minivans are people movers (along with all the gadgets, fun of driving, etc.) and if I can have the option of having an 8th seat when needed and can be removed when not, why not have that feature in a $30K+ vehicle? And, the fact that similar model with options in Sienna would cost me $2K+ more. I am loving this van.]
For example, in recent years, Hyundai has achieved 1st or 2nd ranking for some of their vehicles in this category. But their overall reliability is still below average. Kia is very similar on the FTQ but their reliability is always at the bottom (like VW and MB). And believe or not, some of the most reliable vehicles are the unpopular vehicles from GM: Buick Century, old Malibu
Many things which contribute to the reliability of the vehicle: engineering of vehicle , components tolerance, and system design. I have no doubt that the 05 Odys has all attributes of a vehicle which will last for at least 10 years. It has:
1. Strong body integrity (free of squeak a rattle)
2. Well designed engine & transmission
3. Excellent brake
4. Excellent handling
5. Excellent acceleration
6. Reasonable HWY mileage for 4300 lb vehicle (provided keeping speed less than 70MPH)
We recently rented a new 05 DC in our LA trip. We found this vehicle lacking from items 2-5 compared to the 05 Odys. We rather have the 05 Odys than the 05 DC knowing all the design bugs that the Honda has:
1. Gap on the upper glove box compartment (engineering oversight)
2. Hard surface plastic (cost cutting)
3. Booming sound at certain RPM range (engineering tuning)
4. Hard to close rear hatch (manufacturing glitch)
I am not too worried about the Honda recalls either. Remember Toyota Sienna has a recent recall on their seat belt design which may not retract in an accident. To me, this is a serious engineering problem.
JT
I had a left sliding creak from standing still to low speed. One day, I played around with the weather stripping on that door and it disappeared since then. One way you can confirm if certain part of the vehicle making this noise is pushing on it: you will hear the sound.
I have had my 9 year old Old minivan making all the noise since new. It is a nuisance but it is harmless. With big vehicle and sliding doors, these things happen all the time.
jt
Keep in mind other's motives for promoting cars...i.e..selling magazines, creating hype, or even just selling automobiles thru the web.
And, it is true that when a model is newly redesigned, it will have some problems, and they have been taken care of as the year progressed. Otherwise, if 05 Honda Odyssey truly deserved a two star rating with lots of lots or problems, we would have seen (one would think) some significant changes in the 06 model, which there is none.
Working in Automotive Industry as I do, I promise you there's not enough time in one model year to make major changes - especially to a vehicle that was just designed a year ago. They're fixing problems on the fly....why do you think the last recall only effected half of the Oddy production so far? ALL manufacturers do it.
I think the Sienna is more "luxuryish" inside than the Ody, but the style didn't appeal at all, the motor was more fluff than power, the Ody drove more car-like, and I liked the techno doo-dads better in the Ody. So that's what we bought. Do the same and you'll be a happy camper even if you need an extra visit to the shop. We're at 5k miles and haven't returned for any issues. So fa, better than our Lexus GX470 which was back to the dealer twice by now, but the stars and reviews sure wouldn't have pegged that as being possible.