Honda Odyssey vs. Toyota Sienna

badgerfan

Paying nearly $40K, actually over $40K by the time you add in sales tax, for a minivan just blows my mind.

How about instead spend $20k for a Dodge Grand Caravan SE+ and add maybe $2K more for a portable aftermarket DVD and and independent portable Nav? Saves you about $18K cash to invest for your next minivan! (And you get stow and go seats, for the most floor space flexibility and ease of conversion of any minivan)

stickguy

it's very close. I believe it is a tiny bit smaller, but not much.

Having driven one, it manuvers very nicely.

dex

When open, the tailgate adds about 22 inches to the existing length of 201 inches. The height with the tailgate up is about 7 feet (about 70 inches with the tailgate down). The width of the Odyssey is 77.1 inches.

bimmerfan3345

I just love this van. I soon hope to see the sianna in the dust.

rorr

Personally, I felt the seating in the Sienna was more comfortable. True, Sienna does not have adjustable pedals; it does have a telescoping steering wheel (which is standard across the board; one has to go up to the Touring model to get the adjustable pedals in the Ody). Ody has memory seats (again, Touring only). Sienna offers power passenger seat on XLE and Ltd. Tire pressure monitoring on Touring only, standard across the line on all Siennas. Proprietary run-flats are a BENEFIT? Hmmm, hope you like those run-flat Michelins; they are your ONLY choice.

More interior room in Ody? Hmmm. Sienna has more total cargo capacity (149 cf vs. 147 cf), more luggage capacity behind 3rd row (43.6 cf vs. 38.4 cf), more front headroom (39.5" vs. 39.2"), more shoulder room in front 2 rows(63.8"/64.9" vs. 63.5"/63.1"), more hip room in all 3 rows(58.4"/67.5"/51.8" vs. 57"/64.4"/48.5"), and more front leg room (42.9" vs. 40.8"). The only interior dimensions I could find where the Ody was equal to or greater than the Sienna was mid and rear headroom (38.6"/38.1" vs. 39.6"/38.4" in Ody), rear shoulder room (61.1" vs 61.2" in Ody) and mid and rear legroom (39.6"/39.5" vs 40.0"/41.1" in Ody). In the front row, the Sienna definitely has more room than the Ody. The Ody has more room in the 3rd row. In my family, the adults will generally be seated in the first and 2nd rows, with kids in the 2nd or 3rd rows. However, if you intend your kids to chauffer you around everywhere, the Ody may be your choice....8^)

Quicker acceleration? I know the Ody has a 25hp advantage. I also know it is approximately 450lbs heavier (4165lbs. vs. 4634lbs. for Touring). Sienna actually has a slightly better power/weight ratio.

I agree with you on price. The most popular Ody will likely be the EX-L which has an MSRP of $30,810 including destination. The closest Sienna trim/option package is the XLE w/ package 6 (to get heated leather seats, moonroof, 6-CD changer, and all the safety goodies) which has an MSRP of $34,540 including destination.

rorr

Turning circle for the Sienna is 36.8'. It is 36.7' for the Ody (essentially equal - give stickguy a cigar).

bimmerfan3345

wow, by that much? who woulda thought?

andrewtran71

"How about instead spend $20k for a Dodge Grand Caravan SE+ and add maybe $2K more for a portable aftermarket DVD and and independent portable Nav?"

No, I'm betting on the next Kia/Hyundai minivan.
The 2006 Sonata and XG350 both look like VW sedans--great looks with NAV!
So their new minivans will most likely be cheaper than both Honda/Toyota and probably around the ballpark of Dodge Grand Caravan.

But the most important factor is RELIABILITY.
Sure, the gaps have narrowed, but Toyota and Honda are still more reliable than other makes in general.

But if Hyundai can make their new minivan look like a Range Rover, count me in! :-)

Heck, if Dodge/Chrysler can make their new minivan look like a Range Rover, count me in too!

hansienna

Reliability of Odyssey and Sienna?....What an expensive joke.
     Reading in the Town Hall I read of wind noise in the 2005 Odyssey and transmission problems of earlier Odysseys. What about sludge in Sienna engines?
     Sadly, the 2005 Odyssey EX does NOT have some of the features of my much less expensive 2002 T&C LX. My Chrysler also does NOT have the wind noise being reported with 2005 Odyssey here in the Town Hall.

bimmerfan3345

wind noise problems on the honda have always been a problem, and even though they arent on a T& C, I would never get one. My mom has one and its junk comapared to the japenese gold holders.

hansienna

What year is your mom's T&C and how old was it when she bought it?
     After closely comparing a 2001 Ody EX purchased new and a 2002 GC Sport purchased used, it was obvious to me that the GC Sport is quieter and smoother riding with many nice comfort and convenience features NOT had on the Odyssey. The Odyssey Magic Seat is nice if you want to carry large items and need space for only 3 passengers. The Odyssey driver's and front passenger seats are more comfortable than my T&C LX BUT the glove compartment of the Odyssey EX intrudes into the leg space of the front passenger.

karenk

Hi, just a note on a portable DVD Player. It is not fun. We have one and it kinda stinks. First, the volume is set in the back of the TV, ie. right next to my ear, but the kids in the third row cannot hear over the engine. Also, it hangs in the middle of the front seats. This is really obtrusive for the driver. It is right next to my arm and I find it uncomfortable. I cannot reach my babies pacifier or cup b/c it is in the way. I also cannot listen to the radio on long trips only the movie. I know, I am investing in a DVD with our new car.

Thanks

Karen

anonymousposts

FWIW: Edmunds reported 10 problems with their long-term 01 Grand Caravan and only 3 with their long-term 99 Odyssey. Not a strong showing for the Grand Caravan considering 99 was the Odyssey's first year. You can keep going on about the tranny issue if you want to but if I felt like it I could provide link after link after link of people complaining about their Dodge/Chrysler mini-van transmission.

anonymousposts

karenk: The factory-installed DVD player in our 04 Odyssey works great. Very integrated and the sound is very clear through the stock speakers. I will have to take a few minutes and drop by a Honda dealer to check out the 05 Ody's surround sound.

karenk

Thanks so much for the insight, I appreciate you taking the time to write your post. How Funny about taking both cars out. I thought I was bad going from the Honda dealership to the Toyota dealership right next door. (I didn't even have to pull out to the street.) I may go with the Sienna, although I am not sure, but I think you are looking at a 7 passenger, I am looking at an 8 passenger. I think that the comfort, and ability to get people in the 3rd row, when I have 2 car seats in the second row is better in the Toyota. That lil seat in the middle of the odessy is kinda sad. . . I cannot fit a carseat on it so the older kids could climb into the back. I also found that I just couldn't see as well. I could barely see out the left side rear window. Thanks so much.

karenk

Thanks, that was quick, I just sent that. I am actually going get a DVD no matter what I decide on. (3 kids I'll take it)

Karen

floridacritic

A quick response as to the dimensions. I too read both brochures as to dimensions, however, the interior of the Honda just flat out seemed larger and more accommodating. You simply have to check out both vans for yourself to experience the difference. You simply cannot rely on the printed brochures to make the roominess argument. Also, I am not going to sell the kids short on space and comfort. I still kept asking myself, why pay more for a slightly lesser van? That is the Sienna has no 6 disc CD changer with NAV; no memory driver seat; smaller less comfortable leather seating; and a lesser engine producing a slower ride. I have also heard four wheel disc brakes are best. The Sienna has rear drum brakes. The kind of brakes that show up on the Kia Sedona. Ultimately, I guess it comes down to personal taste as well as which dealership can actually produce a product. Amazingly, the Sienna remains scarce and, of course, the new Odyssey will remain scarce well into 2005. Truth be told, selecting either van over all others is the best decision one could make. They may cost a little more in the beginning, but they hold their value and are the best investment long term. Kind of like the stock market, invest for the long term.

karenk

I took out both the 05 Odsy & the Sienna 8 passenger & I took all 4 kids (2- 6 year olds, a four yr old and 18 month old. I car pool 2x a day, more on CCD or Soccer days!!!

I am not really technical, but what I just wanted to know some real life things, such as will my ice coffee go flying when I go around a curve?? HA HA. Ok back to my msg.

I liked the Odsy. b/c I thought that the 3rd row was much easier to fold down, although I thought that those plastic release clips would break in no time. (one on the lot had broken clips - someone forced). I thought that there was more space between the 2nd and 3rd row. I liked that I could control all the heat/ac/vent and lights from the front. (I couldn't adjust the temperature in the rear on the Sienna from the front, apparently you need to use the controls mounted above the rear driver side door - weird). I absolutely like the Odsy colors better - I am dying for black. - but I found that the Sienna seems to be the better car for me.

The biggest thing for me was the seating. On the Sienna, all three seats in the middle row are decent size. I could absolutely travel some distance with 3 people in the middle row. I liked that the seatbelt was attached to the middle seat instead of hanging from the ceiling as in the Odsy. I usually put the 2 youngest in the middle, and the two oldest in the third row. I put the two car seat- one behind the driver and one in the middle seat- and the two oldest can get into the back by flipping the far right seat back (my 6 yr old son can do it by himself - yea!!!) In the Odessy, You cannot fit 2 car seats in the middle and easily get the others in the back (even the sales man said I should go to the mfg. and show them a thing or two). To get the far right seat to slide fwd. I had to pull both car seats as far as I could to the left. So the middle car seat was straddling the middle seat and the left one. (I didn't feel like that was the safest.) The other option was to put the 2 carseats on the end, but then the kids have to climb in front of another (usually non cooperative child and climb over the the middle seat to get into the back. Not a great option.

The other big selling point on the Sienna, I just felt that I could see better. I dont know if it was the mirrors, the size of the windows or what but I felt that my visibilty was limited in the Odsy. (On the odsy, I felt that there wasn't much room between the head rest and the curtain airbags storage area to see throught the left psgr. window)I am in a lot of crowed parking lots and kids everywhere and I felt better knowing that my visibility is good. (I seriously don't understand those monter SUV's is there any visibility?!?!?) I have never used the rear camera, and to be honest I can barely afford the new van, much less the higher package.
Bad parts of the Sienna, I thought the cargo space was wierd it seems high and fortress like. I don't know why it buggs me. Also a big bad point is the leg room in the 3rd row. It is seriosly lacking. I know my kids are small but as a small adult 5'4 it just feels cramped (especially with the 'solid' middle row. There is actually more space in my Mazada MPV between the second and third row. (I measured with my arm). I can see that they are making up the space between the second and first seats, there is plenty of room for their stuff on the floor space. . .As a side note I really don't think that lazy susan thing in the odessy is such a huge deal, other than some crayons and perhaps a x-tra diaper/ now that stow and go storage on "that other mini-van" seems realy cool. The other thing that I hate about the Sienna is I cannot figure out the options/etc. Package 1 ce vs. bz vs. ce axysuandjaeu??????AGH!!!!! I am having a hard time comparison shopping, and making sure I get everything I want (that I can afford. I have found some sienna salespeople pretty aggressive and willing to deal, usually nobody wants to deal over the internet/telephone or with a women (w/o her husband at her hip!!!) It is downright disgraceful, but that is another show. Just as a side note, when I spoke with the Odsy Sales Manager - you know the wheeler and dealer who comes out and tries to milk you out of every penny in your saving account - says to me on learning that I wanted a black van, "oh your husband must have nothing to do" b/c black gets dirty.

Finally, I didn't notice a big difference with pickup etc.

Thanks for reading my post.

stickguy

back to back (the beauty of an auto dealers row). We drove the 'Ody 2 weeks back, but hadn't driven a Sienna since last December.

Of the 2, my wife is leaning toward the Honda. She can't give a firm answer why. There are little things she prefers on each one, but overall, she just liked the Honda better, the overall feel and drivng experience.

I felt stronger about the Honda. The seats were much more comfy for me (longer cushion, and better height/tilt adjustment. I also like the handling/steering feel, but I prefer sporty cars anyway (I drive a Scion tC, which replaced a Maxima SE and a Miata, so obviously a soft ride isn't a prioity to me). The Honda just felt more controlled and resonsive, and less floaty.

THe dash and guages in the Honda also looked nicer to me.

Regarding room, both are cavernous inside, but the Honda had a much more comfortable rear seat. I rode in the back of the SIenna, and my legs were plastered against the 2nd row seatbacks, and my head hit.

We are comparing the XLE package 6 vs. the EX-L. The biggest functional difference between them as best as I can tell is the power tailgate, which isn't important to us. Both have heated leather and moonroof, the main reason we are looking at these trim levels. The rest of the differences (such as the nice 2nd row power door buttons in the Sienna) were nice, but generally fell in to the gadget or so wha tcatagories to us (but, as always, YMMV).

Other big difference was price. MSRP of $30,810 for the Honda, and $34,5xx ish for the Sienna. Discounts are possible (maybe more now on the Toyota, until recently they weren't being discounted much around here), but no way is the Sienna $3,700 better than the Honda. Even with a 2K drop, the $1,700 would pay for the factory DVD.

lobsenza

We use a portable DVD and the kids wear headphones so we can listen to the radio. It works quite well. The other advantage is that I don't want them watching movies on short trips around town and the protable makes this much easier to enforce.

hansienna

"invest for the long term"? Buy the Sedona or a DC minivan and invest the difference. Very few vehicles are a good financial investment .

thedesmonds

karenk...are you in the New Hampshire area? The reason I ask is that the 05 Odyssey we test drove last week had broken clips on the rear seats as well.

It was a red flag for me seeing how this van had been on the lot for only 1 day and had 35 miles on it.

We test drove both the Sienna and Odyssey and have to say both appear to be great vans. I like the interior/exterior and AWD option of the Sienna but like the in-floor storage in the odyssey...true it doesn't hold much but the things it will hold are currently on the floor and in the cargo space of the vehicle I drive now. I think I will like the NAV system better in the Odyssey as well (If I can ever see it).

My decision will probably be based on price. I have a problem paying MSRP!! Anyone getting 04 Odyssey's below invoice? Were there ANY changes in the 05 Sienna?

mtrealtor

I was offered the XLE Limited and the Touring each for close to the same price (about $34,500). Neither had NAV/RES nor AWD. I'd like to have NAV/RES and also AWD but I don't need them. I test drove the Ody this week and a Sienna last year. We chose the Sienna. Here is my opinion on the differences between the 2.
Based upon their past records I think the Sienna will be more reliable. The Sienna interior is more comfortable. There is more legroom in the Sienna front seats. The second row seats seemed roomier also (more hip room). The Sienna interior has a higher quality look and a more plush feeling and the trim seemed a little nicer. I liked the floor storage compartment in the Ody but my wife pointed out that it may be hard to keep clean, hard to get to under floor matting, may not be water-proof after kids tromp through with snow boots on and anything stored in it may rattle. The Ody drove a little peppier but I'm getting old and value a quiet soft ride over quick. The Sienna seemed quieter although I was intrigued by the Ody's sound quieting system. Economy, exterior, safety, instrumentation all appeared about equal.

carguy1234

Now that people are willing to shell out in the neighborhood of 40k on these two vans, I wonder how many people would pay even more for a BMW van? Sounds like they could offer one for the 2007 model year, so I suspect late 2006 availability.

Sounds like a stretched X5 with sliders, a third row seat, and of course the awesome BMW chassis, engine, and suspension.

Though I wonder how many parents will crash the thing when trying to use the iDrive, while the kids are yelling in the back! Maybe they should skip iDrive for the van.

One Link:

http://www.motortrend.com/future/spied/112_2007fvf/index1.html

Autoweek also had a blurb about the BMW van recently.

ewt

" think the score is well settled on features. The only features I am aware the Sienna had which the Odyssey did not have were the rear vents in the third row and manually telescoping steering wheel. I forgot to mention the front center tray in the Odyssey easily folds down to allow for rear access. The Sienna front seat center console has to be completely removed."

You missed a few. The Odyssey doesn't beat the Limited for features. HID headlights, laser cruise control, buttons to open the sliders where they are convienent to use, AWD and a console with storage between the front seat are all missing from the Odyssey. I don't view the folding table as an advantage. You shouldn't be walking around in the car while it's moving in the first place, and you lose a lot of useful storage. If you want the table, you can move the console between the rear seats like on the Touring and buy a table for between the front seats.

skinnytony

Funny how opinions vary. Seems to me more people say the Ody is slightly nicer looking on the exterior while the Sienna is slightly nicer (and higher quality) on the interior.
Also, floridacritic, don't compare stickers because you can get the Sienna for well below MSRP. Generally not the case currently with the Ody...

racerx1

First off, I am in both the Honda (2000 Odyssey) and Toyota (2004 Highlander) camps. I've been looking to replace the Honda to get the better safety features. Our Honda has worked nearly flawlessly for 74K miles. My only complaints about the Honda is that it is noisy, especially compared to my Highlander.

I've been test driving both (without NAV/DVD) and they are close. Here's my impressions:

Road handling: Honda definitely feels more like a car, more feedback from the road. Sienna is similar to my HL, very comfortable and smooth handling but won't inspire you on winding mtn roads.

Acceleration: Honda has more oomph, even more than my own Honda which is excellent. Sienna has plenty of power, though, so it's not sluggish. Just not as quick.

Noise: I think the Sienna has a bit more noise. A tiny bit, partly from a noisier engine during acceleration. But they are both quiet - not Lexus quiet but Toyota quiet.

Interior: I am not a fan of wood interiors in general - looks plastic (hey it is plastic!). I like the layout of the middle console of the Honda better. The temp controls for the 3 zones are next to each other and the buttons for all controls are laid out in nice little rows. Just my preference. I did like the extra storage bins in the driver & passenger front doors - allows for maps in the lower and sunglasses, tissues & other stuff in the upper bin. I think the leather seats in the Sienna are fit/finish better. While I prefer a center console of the Sienna, the tray is fine and there are enough storage bins for everything in the Honda. The tray in the middle is useful but like some other poster said, it might be a PITA to clean.

Overall, I think I am getting the Honda. It doesn't have the HID lights nor laser cruise, but disc brakes all around are std (not avail on non-Ltd XLE FWD) and it's very close. The Sienna has a slightly more luxurious ride. But the real kicker (for me) is price. I can get the Honda at MSRP for $30,815 and the Sienna for $34,500. If I got the non-Ltd XLE, it would be closer in price but I would forfeit the 4-wheel disc brakes and 6CD player. I'm glad that both are around - competition is good for the consumer.

jsmath5

Well said and done. We are printing that out and distributing it here to let people know other's ideas, especially big time past Toyota owners.

Thank You sir.

indy93

Good post but....would you still go with the 05 ODY when you can buy an 05 Sienna XLE Ltd. for $31,900.?

samnoe

"I forgot to mention the front center tray in the Odyssey easily folds down to allow for rear access. The Sienna front seat center console has to be completely removed..."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember, only the Sienna XLE gets the big console which has to be removed to allow for rear access. The CE and LE has the same tray as the Ody, and is optional in the XLE Limited.

xyz2004slc

Does anyone know the size of the Navi screen on the Sienna vs. the OdyÉ THX!

btk413

The Sienna offers 4 wheel disc brakes on all their models depending on the options you choose. 4 wheel disc brakes are standard on Sienna limited and almost all XLE configurations.

The XLE and Limited have Tri-zone heating and a/c with controls in the front and rear. Would someone that owns a CE or LE verify that the rear a/c can be controlled from the dash/center console?

lobsenza

I have an 05 XLE (not limited) with 4 wheel disc brakes. It is included with any package that includes the VSC (skid control) which was a must in my book. I bought for $3K off MSRP and got it equipped exactly the way I wanted it with NONE of the extra mile packages. It took 1 week for the dealer to get the vehicle from when I gave the OK.

skinnytony

indy93, you mentioned $31.9 for an '05 Ltd. Is this excluding any packages I assume? Have you seen this price? Sounds like a deal that would be hard to pass up!

agiftforu

Has anybody compared the 05 Navigation System in the Odyssey with the Navigation in the
Sienna?

racerx1

$31.9? I can't find anything less than $34.5 for a LTD (no Nav/DVD) in northern NJ. I think I would get the Sienna but my wife is leaning towards the Honda - she likes the feel/handling better.

pen101

If you want leather, sunroof and no DVD, then these are the closest packages. MSRP is 31810 (EX-L) vs 35135 (XLE #6). The Sienna does give you more content than the Honda when configured this way. But, if XLE #6 can be had at invoice ($30,984 including destination) and the EX-L is at MSRP, the value winner is the Sienna (more content for same price). However, the EX-L can now be had under MSRP, giving the EX-L a clearer value advantage (note, I am defining value as the content you get for the purchase price and not resale value or reliability)

autoguy1

When searching in August for a '04 model, I found a XLE LTD base with nothing on for around $32K before taxes. Forgot the dealer but I did find it. I think it's in Burlington.

starlightmica

The rear temperature on the Sienna CE and LE cannot be adjusted from the driver's seat, it's controlled by a manual dial on the 2nd row driver's side. My toddler sits in that position and obviously can't help there, but it's reachable for me (5'7") from the driver's seat.

Rear discs come on all Siennas with VSC, which includes just about all vehicles selling for at least $26k (transaction price). It's hard to find an XLE without VSC.

pen101

Sorry did not proof read my post until now. It appears from Sienna board that 2005's can be had near invoice. Accordingly, applying my above comparison, the EX-L would have to be sold at least $800 under MSRP just to equal the XLE #6 price at invoice. But the XLE #6 has more content features. This would mean the EX-L would have to be had at substantially below MSRP to be comparible to the XLE #6 value wise. Make sense?

andrewtran71

"Reliability of Odyssey and Sienna?....What an expensive joke"

None are perfect, but if we look at statistics, the reliability of The Ody and Sienna are much better than Chrysler, Ford, Chevy, etc.

Sure, we could possibly get an Ody or Sienna that are less reliable than a T&C.
Sure, we could possibly get a T&T that will never have a problem for 300K miles.

But statistically, the Ody and Sienna are more reliable.

The only way I would get anything else is if they offered a 10yr/100K miles waranty.

andrewtran71

"You simply cannot rely on the printed brochures to make the roominess argument"

If we didn't have ACTUAL FACTUAL measurements, everyone would be claiming his or her minivan is "actually" roomier based on SUBJECTIVE observations.

andrewtran71

"Very few vehicles are a good financial investment"

None are a financial investment period.

Name me one automobile which increases in value over time?
Well, okay, except for "antiques".

Automobiles are a means of transportation to most people and are a means of entertainment to some people, not a financial investment.

andrewtran71

"Sienna seemed quieter"

First, I can't wait for Car & Driver to do a sound comparison.
Second, I'm leaning towards the Ody.
But I just think it's amazing how Toyota can make the Sienna
1) just as quiet (or quieter as you believe) without even using any Active Noise Cancellation/ Control system, and
2) just as fuel efficient (27mpg vs. 28mpg) without even using VCM.
Third, I'm still leaning towards the Ody:-)

andrewtran71

"BMW Minivan---Sounds like a stretched X5"

Holy Batmobile!

That's it. Forget the Ody for me!
I'm jumping ship to BMW--that is unless Lexus or Acura also comes out with a minivan:-)

andrewtran71

"Has anybody compared the 05 Navigation System in the Odyssey with the Navigation in the
Sienna?"

Oh, man, I cannot believe you ask that!

First, no, I don't know if any dealership has an Ody w/NAV yet.
Second, the Ody's NAV is 8" vs 6.5" and the Ody has 637 Voice Commands that controls the DVD RES, NAV, A/C, Radio, and CD Player. The Sienna is not even Voice Activated.
The Ody has more Points Of Interest and even has a Gazat Restaurant Review!

We should compare the Ody's NAV to a $70K Lexus LS430, not a Sienna!!!
And the Ody has an even better NAV than the Lexus, even without trying it out.
The Ody has the exact same NAV that the '05 Acura RL has, except it does not have Live Traffic Report like the Acura, which is not "all that" right now anyways.

So if you are into NAV, the Ody's NAV will kill the Sienna's NAV.

scienceman

But I just think it's amazing how Toyota can make the Sienna... just as fuel efficient (27mpg vs. 28mpg) without even using VCM....;

It's not that amazing. The Sienna weighs about 400 pounds less (almost 10% less) than the Odyssey. And by the way, the '05 Sienna is rated at 26mpg hwy unlike the '04 which was at 27mpg.

andrewtran71

"The Sienna weighs about 400 pounds less (almost 10% less) than the Odyssey. And by the way, the '05 Sienna is rated at 26mpg hwy unlike the '04 which was at 27mpg"

Interesting.
Why is the Ody that much heavier?
And why is the '05 Sienna less fuel efficient than the '04 Sienna?

scienceman

Why is the Ody that much heavier?
And why is the '05 Sienna less fuel efficient than the '04 Sienna?

Those are two excellent questions. Supposedly the new steel used in the Odyssey is much lighter, but if you look at the new frame in the brochure, compared to the old frame, it's much more substantial. In addition, the new model supposedly has thicker glass to reduce wind noise in the cabin--glass is heavy. Finally, the other sound insulation materials probably contributed to the weight. Also, anecdotically, the seats in the Toyota may be a bit lighter. This is just based on how easy it was to flip the 2nd row ones forward when I tested it.

As for the reduction in fuel economy for the Sienna, I have no idea. I asked a salesman, and he wasn't even aware that the new Sienna had a lower fuel economy rating. Supposedly it was unchanged, but maybe Toyota tweaked the tuning a bit.

rorr

Agree with you on revit.

Have to disagree with your assessment on isellhondas. Yes, he is a Honda salesman. That being said, I think if you try to read his posts with an open mind, you may see that he does attempt to present at least some sort of balance to the whole salesman vs. consumer mindset. And I have yet to see anything that he was just simply out and out wrong on.

Peace.