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Honda Civic GX
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I really think somebody at Southern California Gas Co needs to get on the ball and educate their employees and maybe even create some incentives for consumers- maybe even team up with Honda on a joint marketing campaign. Honda on their part really needs to lower the cost of Phill, or better yet include it in the purchase price. Plus they really need to give the GX the same features as the Hybrid- I mean, how much would it cost Honda to add 2 more speakers, or add climate control, or include the EBD software in their Antilock Brakes? For the price their charging for the GX it should have more premium features than the Hybrid.
http://www.myphill.com/index.htm
The big player in the CNG market has always been Ford with their Crown Vics and F-150s and they have pulled out of the CNG market completely and are now diverting R&D dollars to the above mentioned technologies. In fact, they are the only car manufacturer in the world that is investing in all four major new technologies. The production of Ford CNG models have swamped the tiny production from Honda. Where Honda was/is producting only ~300 units a year, Ford was producing thousands and thousands (over 30,000 Crown Vics produced).
Thinking that CNG will ever make a big splash in the US consumer market is wishful thinking, it just aint gonna happen. The Civic GX probably has a couple of years left, then Honda will abandon it in favor of clean diesel which starts in 2007. Not only will clean diesel offer much better mileage, performance and range (not to mention a bigger trunk) than the GX but it will be have low emissions and be available at almost all gas stations. You'll actually be able to drive the car outside of a major metropolitan area, something you can't reliably do with a Honda GX.
Philling up at home is not very attractive to me, the cost to own and operate does not make economic sense. The numbers just don't work out.
If anyone is interested in getting a CNG Civic I would strongly recommend getting a used one to avoid the big price depreciation that will start in 2007 when what little advantages the GX currently has, start to rapidly melt away. Beware, the resale values of the GX will quickly drop.
The reason CNG hasn't taken off in the US is because Americans are used to cheap gasoline. In Europe where gasoline costs 7.00- 8.00 a gallon, CNG is a lot more accepted. There are also more car companies that offer dual fuel CNG/gasoline vehicles in Europe that are not available here. Hybrids might be better accepted at the moment, but in a couple of years once all these new hybrid owners start suffering the battery problems and loss of performance that are inherent in the design they may well become disillusioned. It's also interesting that in Europe Hybrids have not caught on at all. Instead you see countries like Argentina, Brazil, and Pakistan urgently converting every vehicle in the country to run on CNG (Pakistan is #3 at 600,000 vehicles converted to CNG to date). Makes you wonder what they know about the future of oil that we don't.
For someone with a long commute, less than 75 miles each direction, a good case can be made for owning the Civic GX along with a PHILL unit. I have no idea what your cost to own would be. You would have the feeling of polluting less than anyone else driving that same amount with any petroleum based vehicle. For me I think I would go the conversion route, with the ability to switch to regular unleaded if I was to go on a long trip. Engines last a lot longer on NG than regular unleaded.
The end of Ford and GM's production of CNG vehicles could spell the end of CNG as an alternative fuel, said Mike Brennan, fleet support services manager for Mesa, which runs 72 percent of its fleet on CNG.
"Compressed natural gas' time has come and gone," Brennan said, adding that the city effectively has dropped its alternative-fuel program.
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special04/articles/0816altfuel16.html
It looks like Honda does own Fuelmaker or at least a big part of it.
In 1993, Honda introduced its Civic GX, and the bulk of its sales have been to fleet operators, including New York City. Early next year, Honda plans to step up its GX marketing while offering its FuelMaker home-fueling system. By tapping into residential natural gas lines, FuelMaker can be used with any C.N.G. vehicle, not just Hondas.
"People ask us why we are fooling with this technology," said Mr. Littlefair of Clean Energy, "Well, you have 7,000 C.N.G. trash trucks in Southern California. That's like taking two million vehicles off the road."
http://www.cleanenergyfuels.com/articles/09-26-04.html
But there is a good reason Ford and GM have bailed out. Why would Ford turn away from tens of thousands of sales if it was profitable. The only reason taxi companies even purchased the CNG vehicles in the first place was were because of a city mandate or lucrative tax breaks.
One must question what Honda's reasons for selling the GX are. By only selling 300 units a year, it can't be anything other than a way to pretend to be "green" why they are busy pushing hundred of thousands of gas-guzzling Honda Pilots, Ridgelines, Odysseys, MDX etc.
For those who prdict Hydrogen cars will never come, too late, they are already here! Ford is already selling both hydrogen vans commercially and hydrogen engines to aftermarket companies. The "Hydrogen Highway" is also already under construction in Florida, California and elsewhere.
As for Phill, I don't see how with Honda only selling 300 cars a year, and most of them go to fleets that have their own CNG fueling stations, Phill will ever become a viable proposition in this country. Certainly not at the prices they are charging for it.
But anyway, CNG is history in this country as soon as Clean Diesel arrives on '07.
No Phill required, no small trunk, no range issues, no fueling station issues, no having to compromise by driving a cheap car like a Civic.
My prediction, clean diesel will be the final nail in Honda's very weak CNG strategy.
One nice bonus of refueling at home is extended range. Because of the slower fill, you get more natural gas at the same PSI. I've driven 120 miles so far and it's above the half-way mark.
http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub84.pdf
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Simple, to get into the car pool lane, and that benefit expires December 2007.
Any other questions?
The more likely scenario is that Hybrids will be allowed in the carpool lane which will swamp the lanes and render them useless. As it is, on certain afternoons the carpool lane is now as slow as the regular lanes. Once Hybrids are allowed in, why bother with a range-limited, low comfort-level Honda GX?
The current Highway Bill before Congress currently has language in both the Senate and House versions that allow hybrid to use Federally funded HOV lanes. Thats the only thing stopping California from implementing the Hybrid law that was signed by Arnold last year.
I don't consider myself helping the world by driving a CNG vehicle. I am still burning a non-renewable carbon-based fuel that is the product of offshore drilling or imported from some foreign land. I am still adding greenhouse gases to the environment. I am still driving solo in a car that only gets in the low 30s mpg.
If people were serious about helping the environement, they would be riding in vanpools or some form of mass transit. I find it laughable how people think they are environmentally sensitive because they are cruising around (usually by themselves) in a CNG or Hybrid vehicle. Lets see them riding on a subway or bus, and then they can lecture others about environmental sensitivity.
I still assert Honda is not serious about CNG as an alternative fuel. I believe they merely use the drop-in-the-bucket sales of only 500 to 600 GXs as environmental cover so they can sell hundreds of thousands of inefficient Ridgelines, Pilots, MDXs, Odyseys, etc. without ticking off the Sierra Club.
Does anyone seriously think Honda is going to produce 100,000 GXs and start selling them nationwide?
The car has 45k miles, is a 2001, in good condition and my coworker is asking $12,000 for the car. He purchased it through EV rentals about 6-9 months ago.
Thanks for any help.
Have you calculated the payback period for this device?
$3600 + $800 - $2000 rebate= $2400 out of pocket (+ tax?)
How much per GGE does it cost to fill at home?
I also experience significantly better range after using the Phill.
At 33 mpg, that would mean it would take about 158,400 miles to break even. Is my math correct?
Whats the best range you have received so far using Phill?
Inconsistent/insufficient gas pressure at gas pumps -
SoCalGas stations is the cheapest $1.5 per GGE. But some suffer insufficient pressure (like SoCalGas in Anaheim, CA which fills only 30 - 60%). The problem exists for years but they don't want to fix the problem.
Others like Clean Energy charge $2.1 /GGE which is pretty much monopoly price.
A few stations requires special card and it is another big inconvenient.
Service -
One of the gas injectors in my GX broke at 45k miles and dealer charge $800 to replace it. Luckily it was covered by the emission warranty.
I asked the dealer to replace the high pressure gas filter at 60k miles. It cost $180. The old one doesn't seemed contaminated at all.
Other than that, carpool privilege in CA is the main reason I would keep this car. I would trade for a hybrid if hybrid can get on carpool lane. NGV will never become a popular AFV without a good infrastructure on gas stations (and Phil is too expensive).
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p535.pdf