Post # 69 on page 4 of this thread figured the cost at home would be aprox $1.36 per gallon equivelent. Assuming a price of 1.00 per therm and not counting the cost of electricity to power Phill. I just looked over my SoCalGas bill and my rate is $0.92619 per therm + $0.03802 Public purpose surcharge + 5% user tax. Which I beleive comes in just under 1.00 per therm. I did see something about a "blended discount rate" (post # 95 pg 5), I am hesitant though to call the Gas Company to enquire, since the last time I called they didn't even seem to be aware that there were cars that ran on natural gas or that they even had refueling stations...
I really think somebody at Southern California Gas Co needs to get on the ball and educate their employees and maybe even create some incentives for consumers- maybe even team up with Honda on a joint marketing campaign. Honda on their part really needs to lower the cost of Phill, or better yet include it in the purchase price. Plus they really need to give the GX the same features as the Hybrid- I mean, how much would it cost Honda to add 2 more speakers, or add climate control, or include the EBD software in their Antilock Brakes? For the price their charging for the GX it should have more premium features than the Hybrid.
PHILL is actually built by a company in Canada not associated with Honda. It really makes the Civic GX a usable vehicle. As long as your round trips are less than 180 miles or so. Pull in the garage and hook it up. Some of the maintenance costs are worth thinking about. It would be great to kick the foriegn oil habit.
Well as I recall Honda purchased a 20% equity stake in Fuelmaker back in 2000. I'm not sure how much Honda has invested in the company since then, but I would say owning 20% of the company that makes PHILL gives them at the very least an association. I would like to see them bring PHILL's cost down under 1000.00 like they originally projected- at that price, throwing it in would be a no-brainer. But it's going to be hard to do that unless they can ramp up production- and that can't happen if Honda keeps the GX as one of their 'boutique' cars- Cars they build a few hundred of each year (but never intend to mass produce) just to have the bragging rights to "GX- the cleanest car on earth" or "Insight - Most fuel efficient vehicle on earth"
The market for CNG cars has already come and gone. Not only have hybrids been better accepted by the public (despite the mentioned shortcomings), but Hydrogen fuels, fuel cells and clean diesels/bio diesels are the next big things.
The big player in the CNG market has always been Ford with their Crown Vics and F-150s and they have pulled out of the CNG market completely and are now diverting R&D dollars to the above mentioned technologies. In fact, they are the only car manufacturer in the world that is investing in all four major new technologies. The production of Ford CNG models have swamped the tiny production from Honda. Where Honda was/is producting only ~300 units a year, Ford was producing thousands and thousands (over 30,000 Crown Vics produced).
Thinking that CNG will ever make a big splash in the US consumer market is wishful thinking, it just aint gonna happen. The Civic GX probably has a couple of years left, then Honda will abandon it in favor of clean diesel which starts in 2007. Not only will clean diesel offer much better mileage, performance and range (not to mention a bigger trunk) than the GX but it will be have low emissions and be available at almost all gas stations. You'll actually be able to drive the car outside of a major metropolitan area, something you can't reliably do with a Honda GX.
Philling up at home is not very attractive to me, the cost to own and operate does not make economic sense. The numbers just don't work out.
If anyone is interested in getting a CNG Civic I would strongly recommend getting a used one to avoid the big price depreciation that will start in 2007 when what little advantages the GX currently has, start to rapidly melt away. Beware, the resale values of the GX will quickly drop.
Where is the front fuel filter located? Can it be replaced by an owner or does it have to be replaced by a select CNG Honda dealer, and if so, at what cost?
Well as an alternative fuel I think CNG is the only one that has any promise. Diesel is not an alternative fuel at all- it's made from petroleum just like gasoline and the price of diesel fuel tied to oil prices the same as gasoline. Hydrogen is a red herring- The Energy Returned on Energy Invested (EROEI) percentage is 30 units of energy produced for 1 expended with petroleum based fuels. With Hydrogen it takes 1.3 units of energy to produce 1 unit of hydrogen energy- How do you replace a fuel with an EROEI of 30:1 with one that takes more energy to manufacture than you get in return? Fuel cells might be viable in 30 years -but only if they can ever figure out how to make one that doesn't use platinum- which is a thousand times rarer than gold. Oh, and also assuming they can also figure out how to make Hydrogen without using any energy to do so.
The reason CNG hasn't taken off in the US is because Americans are used to cheap gasoline. In Europe where gasoline costs 7.00- 8.00 a gallon, CNG is a lot more accepted. There are also more car companies that offer dual fuel CNG/gasoline vehicles in Europe that are not available here. Hybrids might be better accepted at the moment, but in a couple of years once all these new hybrid owners start suffering the battery problems and loss of performance that are inherent in the design they may well become disillusioned. It's also interesting that in Europe Hybrids have not caught on at all. Instead you see countries like Argentina, Brazil, and Pakistan urgently converting every vehicle in the country to run on CNG (Pakistan is #3 at 600,000 vehicles converted to CNG to date). Makes you wonder what they know about the future of oil that we don't.
You are making big assumptions regarding the battery. The first gen Prius and Insight have no issues with their batteries to speak of. The real test will be the 2nd gen Prius which has sold in considerable numbers compared to the old one. Then you have the HAH and the RH and Highlander. If there are high failure rates of the components, then there will be buyer resistance in the future. Once thing is definitely certain and this is CNG will never, ever be embraced as an alternative fuel source in this country. No way at all!
I agree that CNG has limitations for private use. In San Diego and I believe Los Angeles, most of the buses are converted to CNG. A big share of the taxi cabs are using CNG. IN 1994, I considered it on my 1993 Chevy truck and while I was contemplating the conversion (about $5k) they went out of business. They had converted hundreds of the Navy vehicles used here. The same issues of expensive maintenance on the Civic GX that go along with the hybrids, have turned my thinking against both. In fact the Natural Gas company in Prudhoe Bay converted their PU trucks to CNG & LNG back in the 1990s. They no longer do that because there is a very expensive inspection on the tanks every so many years.
For someone with a long commute, less than 75 miles each direction, a good case can be made for owning the Civic GX along with a PHILL unit. I have no idea what your cost to own would be. You would have the feeling of polluting less than anyone else driving that same amount with any petroleum based vehicle. For me I think I would go the conversion route, with the ability to switch to regular unleaded if I was to go on a long trip. Engines last a lot longer on NG than regular unleaded.
This same story is reported in cities from NYC to LA. I am not sure why, unless they would like to force fuel cell technology onto the bit cities. It may be a big mistake.
The end of Ford and GM's production of CNG vehicles could spell the end of CNG as an alternative fuel, said Mike Brennan, fleet support services manager for Mesa, which runs 72 percent of its fleet on CNG.
"Compressed natural gas' time has come and gone," Brennan said, adding that the city effectively has dropped its alternative-fuel program.
With Ford and GM bailing out, it is a wide open market for CNG conversion companies to get in. Taxi conversions alone should be a good oppotunity.
It looks like Honda does own Fuelmaker or at least a big part of it.
In 1993, Honda introduced its Civic GX, and the bulk of its sales have been to fleet operators, including New York City. Early next year, Honda plans to step up its GX marketing while offering its FuelMaker home-fueling system. By tapping into residential natural gas lines, FuelMaker can be used with any C.N.G. vehicle, not just Hondas.
"People ask us why we are fooling with this technology," said Mr. Littlefair of Clean Energy, "Well, you have 7,000 C.N.G. trash trucks in Southern California. That's like taking two million vehicles off the road."
With Ford and GM bailing out, it is a wide open market for CNG conversion companies to get in. Taxi conversions alone should be a good oppotunity
But there is a good reason Ford and GM have bailed out. Why would Ford turn away from tens of thousands of sales if it was profitable. The only reason taxi companies even purchased the CNG vehicles in the first place was were because of a city mandate or lucrative tax breaks.
One must question what Honda's reasons for selling the GX are. By only selling 300 units a year, it can't be anything other than a way to pretend to be "green" why they are busy pushing hundred of thousands of gas-guzzling Honda Pilots, Ridgelines, Odysseys, MDX etc.
For those who prdict Hydrogen cars will never come, too late, they are already here! Ford is already selling both hydrogen vans commercially and hydrogen engines to aftermarket companies. The "Hydrogen Highway" is also already under construction in Florida, California and elsewhere.
As for Phill, I don't see how with Honda only selling 300 cars a year, and most of them go to fleets that have their own CNG fueling stations, Phill will ever become a viable proposition in this country. Certainly not at the prices they are charging for it.
But anyway, CNG is history in this country as soon as Clean Diesel arrives on '07.
Clean diesel will arrive soon, but it's up to the car manufacturers to bring diesels to the public. Right now we have few choices. There are the VWs and Mercedes which have questionable service histories. Hopefully we'll have more choices.
I think your right about the Honda GX. Though with many cities mandating clean cars they are still a good choice. I don't see them for the private sector. It would take too long to pay off the fueling appliance. If I needed a car for commuting I believe the Insight is the best thing available today. I am sold on clean diesels by all the manufacturers. I am not so sure about the German car demise. I was at the Mercedes M class Rally yesterday and talked with several MB owners. They believe that all the smoke about MB reliability is just media hype. I did not talk to any of them that would trade for a Lexus. In fact there were several Lexus RX330's in the parking lot. I imagine they were looking to upgrade to the ML350 or ML500 that has better performance, handling & offroad ability, than they are getting in the RX.
The ML is a great car for 2006. Much nicer than the RX as far as looks are concerned. I've owned 3 MB in the past five years and haven't had too many problems, tho more than when I owned the 99 RX. My friend is waiting for the diesel ML which should arrive here next yr.
I would be tempted by the ML with a diesel. My wife and I are still not overwhelmed by the looks of any of the luxury SUVs, maybe the "R" Grand Sport Tourer.
I would be tempted by the ML with a diesel. My wife and I are still not overwhelmed by the looks of any of the luxury SUVs, maybe the "R" Grand Sport Tourer. It was fun driving it around their course. Plus we got a free MB hat.
As I consider moving out to California, I was wondering if there is tons of demand for the limited amount of GX's Honda is producing-- is it like the Prius where one has to get on a waiting list now? Or are they less "desireable" to the masses such that one can just drive away with one? I suppose I could just call a dealership but I thought those who have purchased them might have the inside scoop. Thanks!
I recently retired, and I no longer need my 2003 Civic GX to commute to Downtown LA. I'm thinking about selling it, but I have no idea what to ask for it! It isn't listed here at Edmunds price guide or anywhere else I can find. It is a great car with no problems whatsover. It has the CA HOV lane stickers with upgraded wheels/tires and XM radio. Approximately 32,000 miles. Any ideas for me?
I installed the Phill station on Friday. It works beautifully! Final cost of installation before $2000 rebate was $3600 for unit + $800 for installation. One nice bonus of refueling at home is extended range. Because of the slower fill, you get more natural gas at the same PSI. I've driven 120 miles so far and it's above the half-way mark.
Sounds great and no lines at the Costco station to fill your car with gas. How does the state figure out the road tax? Or is that something yet to be worked out?
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Although that benefit could be extended by the state legislature prior to Dec. '07, right gx222? Seems to me like it would have a good potential to be continued-- though of course one could only guess-- but what a fantastic way to encourage cleaner fuel consumption-- your own singular motivation lends support to that!
Was there a waiting list for your Phil station? Was the $2000 rebate from the state or federal gov? I live in So. Cal and have been thinking of installing a Phil station. Any info not on their website would be appreciated.
Although that benefit could be extended by the state legislature prior to Dec. '07,
The more likely scenario is that Hybrids will be allowed in the carpool lane which will swamp the lanes and render them useless. As it is, on certain afternoons the carpool lane is now as slow as the regular lanes. Once Hybrids are allowed in, why bother with a range-limited, low comfort-level Honda GX?
The current Highway Bill before Congress currently has language in both the Senate and House versions that allow hybrid to use Federally funded HOV lanes. Thats the only thing stopping California from implementing the Hybrid law that was signed by Arnold last year.
I don't consider myself helping the world by driving a CNG vehicle. I am still burning a non-renewable carbon-based fuel that is the product of offshore drilling or imported from some foreign land. I am still adding greenhouse gases to the environment. I am still driving solo in a car that only gets in the low 30s mpg.
If people were serious about helping the environement, they would be riding in vanpools or some form of mass transit. I find it laughable how people think they are environmentally sensitive because they are cruising around (usually by themselves) in a CNG or Hybrid vehicle. Lets see them riding on a subway or bus, and then they can lecture others about environmental sensitivity.
I still assert Honda is not serious about CNG as an alternative fuel. I believe they merely use the drop-in-the-bucket sales of only 500 to 600 GXs as environmental cover so they can sell hundreds of thousands of inefficient Ridgelines, Pilots, MDXs, Odyseys, etc. without ticking off the Sierra Club.
Does anyone seriously think Honda is going to produce 100,000 GXs and start selling them nationwide?
It's very doubtful since the infrastructure isn't there for filling the tanks. I am very glad I don't have a long commute to work. As much as I do have a hybrid, I think allowing single occupant hybrids in the carpool lane sends a bad message.
I am about a month away from purchasing a 2001 Honda Civic GX from a co-worker. I am trying to find pricing information on this particular model but Kelly Blue Book doesn't have the GX model listed. Any suggestions on where I can get a legitimate quote before purchasing?
The car has 45k miles, is a 2001, in good condition and my coworker is asking $12,000 for the car. He purchased it through EV rentals about 6-9 months ago.
There is no sales tax because it is from an out of state company. I haven't received a gas bill yet, so I don't know how much will be overbaseline therms. But I expect the unit will pay for itself in 2 to 3 years of usage. I also experience significantly better range after using the Phill.
If the out of pocket expense for the Phill is $2400 and assume one would save about 50 cents per gallon (best case comparing to the higher Clean Energy prices), then it would take about 4800 gallons to break even.
At 33 mpg, that would mean it would take about 158,400 miles to break even. Is my math correct?
Whats the best range you have received so far using Phill?
The out of pocket for the Phill is $2400. However, the GGE costs $1, $1.40 less than Clean Energy. It therefore takes 1700 gallons to break even, or 56100 miles. On my trip to Vegas I drove 240 miles without the gas light coming on.
I owned an 2000 GX for 2 years and most my complains are on the gas stations.
Inconsistent/insufficient gas pressure at gas pumps - SoCalGas stations is the cheapest $1.5 per GGE. But some suffer insufficient pressure (like SoCalGas in Anaheim, CA which fills only 30 - 60%). The problem exists for years but they don't want to fix the problem.
Others like Clean Energy charge $2.1 /GGE which is pretty much monopoly price. A few stations requires special card and it is another big inconvenient.
Service - One of the gas injectors in my GX broke at 45k miles and dealer charge $800 to replace it. Luckily it was covered by the emission warranty.
I asked the dealer to replace the high pressure gas filter at 60k miles. It cost $180. The old one doesn't seemed contaminated at all.
Other than that, carpool privilege in CA is the main reason I would keep this car. I would trade for a hybrid if hybrid can get on carpool lane. NGV will never become a popular AFV without a good infrastructure on gas stations (and Phil is too expensive).
The GX has two replaceable fuel filters. Just for fun I checked the high pressure filter near the left rear wheel well after about 50,000 miles and found it to be very clean. I just reinstalled it. I see no reason to spend $180 to replace even one filter if the car is operating properly. I believe the Honda service manual recommends replacing the low pressure gas filter in the engine compartment every 20K miles. Save your money if the car is running well! I now have 75k miles and have never changed a gas filter. Car runs great.
According to pages 44-46 of Publication 535 from the IRS, the Phill station is 100% tax-deductible. There is a $100,000 tax credit for the cost of refueling property.
Comments
I really think somebody at Southern California Gas Co needs to get on the ball and educate their employees and maybe even create some incentives for consumers- maybe even team up with Honda on a joint marketing campaign. Honda on their part really needs to lower the cost of Phill, or better yet include it in the purchase price. Plus they really need to give the GX the same features as the Hybrid- I mean, how much would it cost Honda to add 2 more speakers, or add climate control, or include the EBD software in their Antilock Brakes? For the price their charging for the GX it should have more premium features than the Hybrid.
http://www.myphill.com/index.htm
The big player in the CNG market has always been Ford with their Crown Vics and F-150s and they have pulled out of the CNG market completely and are now diverting R&D dollars to the above mentioned technologies. In fact, they are the only car manufacturer in the world that is investing in all four major new technologies. The production of Ford CNG models have swamped the tiny production from Honda. Where Honda was/is producting only ~300 units a year, Ford was producing thousands and thousands (over 30,000 Crown Vics produced).
Thinking that CNG will ever make a big splash in the US consumer market is wishful thinking, it just aint gonna happen. The Civic GX probably has a couple of years left, then Honda will abandon it in favor of clean diesel which starts in 2007. Not only will clean diesel offer much better mileage, performance and range (not to mention a bigger trunk) than the GX but it will be have low emissions and be available at almost all gas stations. You'll actually be able to drive the car outside of a major metropolitan area, something you can't reliably do with a Honda GX.
Philling up at home is not very attractive to me, the cost to own and operate does not make economic sense. The numbers just don't work out.
If anyone is interested in getting a CNG Civic I would strongly recommend getting a used one to avoid the big price depreciation that will start in 2007 when what little advantages the GX currently has, start to rapidly melt away. Beware, the resale values of the GX will quickly drop.
The reason CNG hasn't taken off in the US is because Americans are used to cheap gasoline. In Europe where gasoline costs 7.00- 8.00 a gallon, CNG is a lot more accepted. There are also more car companies that offer dual fuel CNG/gasoline vehicles in Europe that are not available here. Hybrids might be better accepted at the moment, but in a couple of years once all these new hybrid owners start suffering the battery problems and loss of performance that are inherent in the design they may well become disillusioned. It's also interesting that in Europe Hybrids have not caught on at all. Instead you see countries like Argentina, Brazil, and Pakistan urgently converting every vehicle in the country to run on CNG (Pakistan is #3 at 600,000 vehicles converted to CNG to date). Makes you wonder what they know about the future of oil that we don't.
For someone with a long commute, less than 75 miles each direction, a good case can be made for owning the Civic GX along with a PHILL unit. I have no idea what your cost to own would be. You would have the feeling of polluting less than anyone else driving that same amount with any petroleum based vehicle. For me I think I would go the conversion route, with the ability to switch to regular unleaded if I was to go on a long trip. Engines last a lot longer on NG than regular unleaded.
The end of Ford and GM's production of CNG vehicles could spell the end of CNG as an alternative fuel, said Mike Brennan, fleet support services manager for Mesa, which runs 72 percent of its fleet on CNG.
"Compressed natural gas' time has come and gone," Brennan said, adding that the city effectively has dropped its alternative-fuel program.
http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special04/articles/0816altfuel16.html
It looks like Honda does own Fuelmaker or at least a big part of it.
In 1993, Honda introduced its Civic GX, and the bulk of its sales have been to fleet operators, including New York City. Early next year, Honda plans to step up its GX marketing while offering its FuelMaker home-fueling system. By tapping into residential natural gas lines, FuelMaker can be used with any C.N.G. vehicle, not just Hondas.
"People ask us why we are fooling with this technology," said Mr. Littlefair of Clean Energy, "Well, you have 7,000 C.N.G. trash trucks in Southern California. That's like taking two million vehicles off the road."
http://www.cleanenergyfuels.com/articles/09-26-04.html
But there is a good reason Ford and GM have bailed out. Why would Ford turn away from tens of thousands of sales if it was profitable. The only reason taxi companies even purchased the CNG vehicles in the first place was were because of a city mandate or lucrative tax breaks.
One must question what Honda's reasons for selling the GX are. By only selling 300 units a year, it can't be anything other than a way to pretend to be "green" why they are busy pushing hundred of thousands of gas-guzzling Honda Pilots, Ridgelines, Odysseys, MDX etc.
For those who prdict Hydrogen cars will never come, too late, they are already here! Ford is already selling both hydrogen vans commercially and hydrogen engines to aftermarket companies. The "Hydrogen Highway" is also already under construction in Florida, California and elsewhere.
As for Phill, I don't see how with Honda only selling 300 cars a year, and most of them go to fleets that have their own CNG fueling stations, Phill will ever become a viable proposition in this country. Certainly not at the prices they are charging for it.
But anyway, CNG is history in this country as soon as Clean Diesel arrives on '07.
No Phill required, no small trunk, no range issues, no fueling station issues, no having to compromise by driving a cheap car like a Civic.
My prediction, clean diesel will be the final nail in Honda's very weak CNG strategy.
One nice bonus of refueling at home is extended range. Because of the slower fill, you get more natural gas at the same PSI. I've driven 120 miles so far and it's above the half-way mark.
http://www.boe.ca.gov/pdf/pub84.pdf
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Simple, to get into the car pool lane, and that benefit expires December 2007.
Any other questions?
The more likely scenario is that Hybrids will be allowed in the carpool lane which will swamp the lanes and render them useless. As it is, on certain afternoons the carpool lane is now as slow as the regular lanes. Once Hybrids are allowed in, why bother with a range-limited, low comfort-level Honda GX?
The current Highway Bill before Congress currently has language in both the Senate and House versions that allow hybrid to use Federally funded HOV lanes. Thats the only thing stopping California from implementing the Hybrid law that was signed by Arnold last year.
I don't consider myself helping the world by driving a CNG vehicle. I am still burning a non-renewable carbon-based fuel that is the product of offshore drilling or imported from some foreign land. I am still adding greenhouse gases to the environment. I am still driving solo in a car that only gets in the low 30s mpg.
If people were serious about helping the environement, they would be riding in vanpools or some form of mass transit. I find it laughable how people think they are environmentally sensitive because they are cruising around (usually by themselves) in a CNG or Hybrid vehicle. Lets see them riding on a subway or bus, and then they can lecture others about environmental sensitivity.
I still assert Honda is not serious about CNG as an alternative fuel. I believe they merely use the drop-in-the-bucket sales of only 500 to 600 GXs as environmental cover so they can sell hundreds of thousands of inefficient Ridgelines, Pilots, MDXs, Odyseys, etc. without ticking off the Sierra Club.
Does anyone seriously think Honda is going to produce 100,000 GXs and start selling them nationwide?
The car has 45k miles, is a 2001, in good condition and my coworker is asking $12,000 for the car. He purchased it through EV rentals about 6-9 months ago.
Thanks for any help.
Have you calculated the payback period for this device?
$3600 + $800 - $2000 rebate= $2400 out of pocket (+ tax?)
How much per GGE does it cost to fill at home?
I also experience significantly better range after using the Phill.
At 33 mpg, that would mean it would take about 158,400 miles to break even. Is my math correct?
Whats the best range you have received so far using Phill?
Inconsistent/insufficient gas pressure at gas pumps -
SoCalGas stations is the cheapest $1.5 per GGE. But some suffer insufficient pressure (like SoCalGas in Anaheim, CA which fills only 30 - 60%). The problem exists for years but they don't want to fix the problem.
Others like Clean Energy charge $2.1 /GGE which is pretty much monopoly price.
A few stations requires special card and it is another big inconvenient.
Service -
One of the gas injectors in my GX broke at 45k miles and dealer charge $800 to replace it. Luckily it was covered by the emission warranty.
I asked the dealer to replace the high pressure gas filter at 60k miles. It cost $180. The old one doesn't seemed contaminated at all.
Other than that, carpool privilege in CA is the main reason I would keep this car. I would trade for a hybrid if hybrid can get on carpool lane. NGV will never become a popular AFV without a good infrastructure on gas stations (and Phil is too expensive).
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p535.pdf