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Comments
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
I sound like a proud new father ...
At any rate, our C4 has Bose (we can do without; we all want to listen to the engine, right?), Seat Package (It's great to have seat memories because my wife and I drive the car in turn), 19" S-wheel (nice), Bi-Xenon (It's life and death for my wife's commute through the grapevine when she gets off work at night), and the "cheap" $115 mats. With destination, the MSRP was $84415, and we bought it for $77985 (c. 7.6% off). It was an internet no-haggle price, and we always buy our cars that way (except the 2004 Targa, which was an impulse buy: We literally walked by the car, stopped and looked, and bought it).
We are not that picky and we are too lazy to wash our cars, so we just take them to a hand-wash place by our house. I think they are OK. Sorry, not much help.
I'm about ready to go with a 911 again, but I now have a wife in the picture that would be better driving a Tiptronic. All the performance cars I've ever had have been manual trannies, so this would be a real reach for me.
I usually post on the HELM forum, but this question applies more to this one, so, what are the opinions and views and knowledge here on this forum regarding the Tiptronic in the 911?
TagMan
Just a thought/suggestion: Have you considered teaching your wife how to drive a manual? I taught my wife when she was 35, and she has since "refused" to drive an automatic again.
She can drive one with fair results and enjoys doing so. She has a tendency to grind gears and lots of over-rev during shifting and rides the clutch too much. That said, another concern is that she lives on the cell phone and won't use a hands-free device. It's tricky to yack and shift at the same time. I don't want to place myself in the position of trying to "change" her. Better for me to be realistic about her style, and try to work around it. That is why I am wondering about the Tiptronic, and whether or not it kills the 911.
What does it do to the resale is another question.
TagMan
BTW, is there truth to the news that the Targa version is to be released again?
TagMan
According to Porsche, there is a 0.4 second "penalty" in 0-60 going from a 6-speed to Tiptronic in any 911, 911S, Coupe or Cab model. There is an even more pronounced full 1.0 second difference in 0-100 times. That is fairly significant - more than double the difference between a base 911 and 911 "S" or, thought of another way, a 60+/- horsepower penalty. While that still hardly makes the 911 w/ Tiptronic a slowpoke, it does bring it below the Boxster S 6 speed and Cayman S in acceleration. And for me, the hesitation in the tiptronic shifts is slightly annoying. So it does make sense for prospective buyers to to drive both a 6-speed and Tiptronic before spending $80-100K +/- on either.
I ordered a 911 Turbo 6-speed after being slightly tempted by the Turbo Tiptronic. Even thought there is no performance penalty on the Turbo, after driving a new M5 SMG I realized that I wanted complete control. Another factor to consider for long term owners is the cost of repairs. A Porsche clutch replacement is not cheap. But a Tiptronic repair out of warranty can be 3-5 times as much.
And I guess it's not tricky to drive a high performance sports car and "yack" on a hand held cell phone at the same time?
Sorry, but a week ago, somebody we knew was in a serious accident with a "yacker" that changed lanes without checking her blind spot. The woman hit is going to be O.K., but her 3 year old daughter is still in the hospital and they are not sure if she will have permanant disabilities.
If you are seriously thinking about buying a 911 with a Tiptronic, because your wife hasn't mastered a simple clutch and you don't want to compromise her "yackability", well.... there are lots of safer ways to compromise in marriage. Rethink this one. But if that's what you choose to do, I sincerely hope that if you ever have to bury your wife as a result, that it will be without collateral damage to other innocent drivers or passengers.
Again, thanks,
TagMan
My car did not come with that option, but I am considering getting it installed. DC does not permit hand held cell phones (one of their few crazy laws that I actually agree with). I didn't think I'd be using the 911 on a daily basis, and our Acuras have Bluetooth systems. But the more I drive the 911, a hands free system would be nice.
Tagman,
I'm not sure why your wife would NOT use a Bluetooth system or other hands free method. The system in our Acuras is far more convenient than trying to dial by hand and hold a phone to your ear while driving - stick or automatic. If the Porsche system is half as good, it would be worth the $800 +/- I have heard it costs.
On the Tiptronic resale front, I got a call over the weekend from someone who had seen my previous advertisement to sell our 911 (I was considering getting a 2006 in Speed Yellow, but bagged the idea). Turns out he has a very similar car to mine. A Seal Grey 2005 w/ 8k miles, similar options, but Tiptronic rather than 6-speed. I received 15-20+ legitimate calls on mine. He put his ad in the paper/cars.com 3 weeks ago and has only received 5-6 semi-serious calls. Comparing numbers and other dealer trade in quotes, he estimated that the $3,500 +/- Tiptronic will net him less than $1,500, and perhaps nothing, in resale. Sadly for him, he also went with Tiptronic to make it easier for his wife to drive, but she has driven "fewer than 100 miles". She would rather be a passenger in the 911 or driving her Range Rover.
I bought a 6-speed Acura TL knowing that it would potentially be harder to re-sell, since 90% +/- are automatics. But I planned (and still do) on keeping the TL for awhile and valued having the transmission of my choice more than somewhat easier resaleability. Given that the percentages of manual vs. tiptronics in the 911 are roughly reversed, I suggest you go through the same consideration.
P.S. I wonder if the new, better performing Turbo tiptronic will make its way into all 2007 models? If that's the case, maybe resale for 2007+ will be better.
When we bought our 2004 Targa, we got an extended warranty (6 years or 100,000 miles). Should we get similar thing for our 2006 C4?
We have already put 300 miles on the car over the weekend, and my wife has driven it to work today (that means another 150 miles). Do we have to pay more for the extended warranty (if we decide to get it immediately), because the car is "used?"
Any advice is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
kying
BTW, I printed your "break-in" regimen from the Cayman posts and put it on the passenger seat of the C4 and told my wife to follow it. She fought a little about the speed (I told her not to go over 85), but she basically agrees to do everything in the list. Her right leg will be tired when she gets home because she can't use the cruise control.
Any advice to make her 75-mile one-way commute a little easier while breaking-in the C4? Thanks!
kying
Yeah, tell her to imagine the hundreds of thousands of Washington DC area commuters that spend 1-2 hours commuting each way on I66, I395 and I270. Their average speed is about 20, the roads and surrounding scenery is ugly and then they get to go home to suburban/exurban sprawl where colonial boxes and vinyl siding is the predominant housing type/material.
I'm sure that they would all trade her for the remotest chance to hit 85 mph, the beautiful topography and scenery of California and the architectural character of California - in a heartbeat.
That break in will go by pretty fast at your pace. Enjoy it, and your great California scenery!
That's a very good point. I will print your comment out and put it next to your regimen. I sincerely think that she will appreciate it.
kying
I am very familiar with the Acura Bluetooth, and it is decent.
The Porsche phone hands-free system that is now available is not Bluetooth and it requires the driver to physically remove the sim chip from the phone and insert it into the center console in a little sim chip drive slot located just under the number keypad. When leaving the car, the driver has to then physically remove the sim chip from the car and then reinstall it in the phone. And, of course, back and forth. This approach is sorely lacking, IMO, and Bluetooth is definately needed.
There is no Bluetooth in the 911 yet. I would expect it in the future and that WILL absolutely solve the problem! Unfortunately there is no production announcement or date for Bluetooth at this time that I am aware of. Fortunately, patience is something I seem to have plenty of.
TagMan
On the base vs. "S" model 911's, it appears to me that many justify the cost difference not on absolute cost, but relative value. The gross difference is around $10k, but includes $4,880 in options not included in the base car (PASM, 19" wheels/tires, xenons, sport steering wheel). If none of those options appeals to you, then the $10k price difference is significant. But for those inclined to get most or all of those options, the remaining $5,200 for the "S" model is much less significant (getting you 30 horsepower, bigger brakes and , I believe, some suspension upgrades). This is especially true when you factor in the increased resale value. It's hard to compare apples to apples, but it looks to me like a 1+ year old "S" model will sell for at least $6-8k more than the comparably equiped base model (i.e. MORE than the $5.2k "net" difference). These figures, by the way, are all MSRP. The discount I got on a well equiped C2S was MUCH greater than I could have gotten on a base 911 C2, since the dealer markup was much greater.
Not sure how many college students can afford a 911S Cab. But there isn't a snowball's chance that my kids are going to college with anything more than a good pair of running shoes to get them around campus.
Pathetic.
Just so I understand you, are you saying that the resale on a one year old S model is 6-8K more than a base model even if you add in to the base model the $5200 in upgrade accessories that make it somewhat of an S? In other words, a used 911 S sells for about 11-13K MORE than a stripped base car? If that is what you mean , it sounds hard to believe.
Part of the problem may be that an S version not only will have the S package but also may be more likely to have full leather, heated seats, soft leather, leather head liner, sports exhaust, monogramming on the door sills and head rests, ad infinitum (maybe even ad nauseam?). So, sure a used S will sell for a lot more than a used base even with the partial list of S components because will also have a lot of other stuff. Finding apples to compare with apples could be difficult.
As you can imagine from the above, my idea of an ideal 911 would be a base C2 Coupe with electric and heated seats, rear wiper, and maybe the leather interior (my wife thinks that a black coupe with the sand leather is gorgeous. If this will get her approval for a new 911, I'll check that box too.) Rationale: the 0-60 of a base coupe is fast enough for me; coupes are the way to go in New England; I would probably use the Chrono clock three times in the first day of ownership and never again; my 61 year old ears spent a lot of time around mortor tubes 40 years ago in that unpleasantness in Indochina and I don't need to drop $1200 on what audiophiles think is basically a huge marketing effort, not a sterio manufacturer; the base wheels will give a better ride and replacement tires will be cheaper, etc.
Yes, I was saying that it appears that the "S" package alone is worth $6-8k on resale, comparing similarly equiped cars (i.e. with the base having added the xenons, 19" wheels and PASM). Pure guess-timate based upon a few bits of anecdotal evidence. There aren't many used 997s on dealer lots and they vary greatly in equipment. My guesstimate is, however, consistent with my sales managers gut feel.
Relatively few base 911's come with PASM ($1,990). Most have xenons ($1,090) and a fair number have 19" wheels ($1,550+). At that point, the difference is $7,400 +/- and my dealer would say resale is a tossup. But the more you load up the car with other items - Bose, Nav, leather, power seats, etc. - the resale favors the "S". If you go all the way and add PASM to the base, my dealer would argue you are wasting money if you don't go the extra $5,200 and get the "S". Especially in the Cab, which already costs $10k more than the coupe.
That said, what you are considering, a base C2 coupe with limited options makes a lot of sense. I'd be willing to bet that your resale may even be better than mine on a percentage basis, because the options are worth relatively less down the road than the car itself.
I would suggest that if you are thinking about power seats ($1,550+/-) and leather seats ($1,520 +/-), you might want to consider the adaptive sport seats for $3,055. They are full leather and give you more side bolstering and thigh support. It's a cost toss up. My car came with the full leather power seats and I would have preferred adaptive. But the standard (partial leather) seats are damn near as good and I personally don't think the $1,520 for full leather seats is worth it. The full leather interior for $3,800 looks very nice, but that's an option that starts heading you in the "S" direction.
Finally, with respect to the $920 sport chrono, I suggest you give it a test drive if you haven't already done so. I fully agree that the "chrono" portion is worth $50 at most. Cute gimmick. But the "sport" portion is worth more than the $920 cost, IMO. As I've repeated "ad nauseam", the faster throttle response and braking response is, in some ways, more noticable in everyday driving than the 30 horsepower difference between the base and the S. For a little over 1% of the total cost of the car, it remains on the top of my recommended list.
Hope you don't mind if I chime in. I'm toying with the idea of 911 as well, and I have to wonder just how important the resale question really is. After all, regardless of the model (Base coupe or "S") the resale will be fairly good anyway, and it will be many years down the road. Since you are already willing to make such a big commitment on a 911 you would likely keep for many years, doesn't it just make sense to get the car the way you want it to begin with? Or, if depreciation/resale is THAT big a concern, maybe you should get a VERY recent used one that meets your criteria.
TagMan
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=aNq_b_oN6lwU&refer=us
This particular JDP IQ study has less merit compared to others regarding quality, because this one is about INITIAL quality. We're talking 90 DAYS here . . . that's it! 90 DAYS!!! After that, it's a whole different ball game, dweiser, . . . with different studies and different rankings.
TagMan
I agree, but at the time I bought my car last September, it was my first Porsche and the first time I had spent more than $40k for any car. It was easier to take the plunge knowing it wasn't an extremely expensive decision to reverse, thanks to a big initial price discount and the excellent resale history of the 911.
Interesting JD Powers results.
What were the nature of your electical problems? Also, do you plan on keeping your car for a long time and if so, have you purchased an extended warranty? I just saw a CNBC report showing how expensive out of warranty repairs have become, thanks to all this advanced technology. A single Xenon headlamp ran from $800 to $2,000 (BMW cornering headlamps), Adaptive cruise control can run $2,500, even a bloody self dimming rearview mirror can run $1,000. needless to say, German cars had some of the highest priced items, but even Lexus was bashed for their parts price for a nav system screen - $4,000+ :surprise:
You are so right. I had the extended warranty on my previously-owned Boxster, but did not have it on my first Carrera, which was quite some time ago. From now on, I will always purchase the service contract . . . especially considering today's service costs.
BTW, I am curious . . . what was your experience like with your previous S2000?
TagMan
Seats: How many 911 seat options are there? Seven?
1) standard seat, manual adjustment, with partial leather
2) standard seat, manual adjustment, with full leather
3) electric adjustable seat with memory with partial leather
4) electric adjustable seat with memory and full leather
5) adaptive sport seats with partial leather
6) adaptive sports with leather
7) adaptive sport seats with power
Leather: "Full Leather Interior"; What Does It Include
This option seems misleading because there are also other additonal leather options (e.g, around the shift gate ,I think). So, what leather do you get with the full leather interior? Just top of dash and the doors? (Presumably it wouldn't include seats because leather seats are already an option?). The Terra Cotta leather really appeals to me. Is this Special Order Leather any more money than the $3000 or so standard full leather option?
You know, my thinking on options is in flux. I suppose that in the perfect world the base 911 I outlined above would be the most economical way to buy. But maybe not. Maybe as your experience indicates a purchase late in the model year could yield a car with lots of nice options for roughly the same price.
I must admit it was a lot easier for me to lowball a 2005 Cab last September than try to figure out all of those options for a custom order. I found the Porsche website to have lots of options missing. Edmunds list of options seems to be more complete.
Regarding seats, the standard "non-sport" seat comes in partial leather or full leather ($1,520) and manual or power/memory ($1,550). The difference between partial and full leather is not that significant. Full leather adds the seating surfaces, plus the jump seats in the rear. Maybe a little more. But I recommend you look at both before spending that extra $1,520.
Adaptive sport seats ($3,055) ARE full leather seating surfaces (but the back and sides are aluminum), and ARE full power/memory. They have additional side bolster adjustments. So, essentially, you pay about the same for full leather, power memory non-sport seats as you do for adaptive sport seats. It becomes a sport vs. non-sport preference on a custom order.
I think there may also be a plain sport seat that is neither power not full leather, but I've not seen that one.
To be honest, I am not sure what "full leather interior" includes. Certainly the dash. It may also be in lieu of (rather than in addition to) leather seats. But I also see on option lists the leather switch panel, leather door panels, leather center console, etc. (it must be depressing if you are a cow).
A fair number of "S" models come with full leather interior. I'd check one out at a dealership and get a thorough explanantion of what is included and what isn't, before you order your Terra Cotta interior. Hate to miss something and find out after the fact.
Excellent experience. Bought it for $32k in late 2001 (2002 model), drove it for 2.5 years and just under 20k miles, traded it for $23.2k on a TL 6-speed when I needed a new sedan. A total of 4 oil changes, 7,500 mile and 15,000 miles services cost me a grand total of $350. Period. It got 20-22 mpg in the city and 28-32 mpg on the highway. When pushed to it's 9,000 rpm redline, it was as quick as a Boxster S and the handling/steering was extraordinary.
However, it is a two seater, so at most I could take my oldest daughter along for a ride. It was also fairly noisy with the top up, so my wife didn't enjoy driving in it that much.
For anyone looking for an exceptionally fun, no hassle, limited maintenance cost two seater, the S2000 is in a league of its own. For all around performance, you'd have to go with a $60k Boxster S today to beat it.
I have written Porsche North America about my problems and have received a letter back from them saying they will "investigate" and get back to me within 15 business days. Don't get me wrong, I love the car but I'm not loving the problems.
I guess I'll either get the extended warranty or get rid of the car 3 years and 360 days from now. I'd love to hear from someone of a good extended warranty coverage plan that doesn't cost 12 arms & 8 legs.
I sat in a C2 S coupe yesterday with sport seats and manual adjustment. They felt great for me (5'10" and 215) in a blue blazer. IMHO my Cayenne standard seats are just as comfortable and supportive though.
I've had two issues: About 4 months after purchase, upon starting the car it ran very rough and had a "service immediately" message. I had it flatbedded to the selling dealer (50 miles) and they discovered a cracked spark plug coil. About a month ago, I got a "visit workshop" warning. The car was running fine, so I drove it to the local (9 miles) dealer who after taking three days with the car, claimed my aftermarket installation of an XM Satellite receiver had interfered with the PCM sensors. The guy who did that installation at the other dealership has done at least 50 other Porsches in the last year and this was the first such accusation. After resetting the contol unit, nothing has happened since and I still have the XM in the car.
I'm researching extended warranties as I write. But they aren't cheap. Let me know what you ultimately hear back from Porsche. I think the service follow up at the dealer level is average at best.
Can you say ....... :lemon:
????????????????????????????????????????
Sure glad I'm retired so I have the time to devote to getting the P-car fixed constantly AND that I have a nice reliable Japanese car as my other vehicle!!
And, of course, any other good tips on 'how to use/enjoy' my 'new' car is appreciated!
David
David
However, since it is fresh in my mind, I'll pass on a warning I got from my hometown mechanic about "low mileage" cars.
We have a 1995 Nissan Maxima with 155,000 miles that was "semi-retired" to our second home a year and a half ago. In the last 18 months, we have been there at least once every 2-3 months and I tried to make a point of using the car when we were there (20-100+ miles). On our last trip there (Memorial Day), the Maxima was dead. When I got it jump started, the oil light came on and when I moved it our of the garage, there appeared to be about a quart of oil on the floor.
We used our SUV the rest of the weekend and plan on having the Nissan serviced when we return in a couple of weeks. However, my Nissan service manager did an "I told you". He - and others - claim that a car driven regularly, to the tune of 5,000+ miles per year, with a good highway mix - will last a lot longer than a car that sits idle for periods of 1-2+ months at a time. Seals harden, oil drains from the cylinder walls, etc. etc. after several weeks of sitting idle. The service manager claims that the last 18 months, with only 1,000+/- intermittent miles on the car, were much much harder on it than any previous 15,000+ mile year that took it to 150k miles. He is not hopeful that it can be economically recessitated.
The fact that your car only has 7,600 miles in what could be nearly 6 years would send a flag to the top of the flagpole for both my Nissan and Porsche service managers. Not that "low mileage" is necessarily bad, but that if it was the result of long periods of idleness, the car should be thoroughly checked for items that deteriorate with idleness. The rear main seal, brake calipers/pads, engine seals, etc. are all prime candidates.
If you have had that thorough mechanical check up done, and have records from the previous owner that show the car had been driven and serviced regularly, then hopefully you can drive it for 150k miles over the next 10 years. I'm going to be facing a tough decision about putting a bullet in the head of my sentimental Maxima in a couple of weeks. All for lack of use, rather than too much.
I agree, Porsche do not like to be "laid up", so a fluids flush and brake and tire check would be in order.
I have no knowledge of the aftermarket exhaust systems, but if they did not integrate similarly and/or could not be deactivated, that would be a big minus, IMO.
I think your sport button activtates the exhaust cutout, but I also am lead to believe that between 40 to sixty your system reverts back to normal sound.
Jim
(The whole idea of an exhaust cut out reminds me of glass packs on a '55 Chev done up in grey primer driven by a pimply faced guy listening to the Big Bopper.)
I don't think you gents are serious, and I am looking for answers-- perhaps this is not the right site.