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If you have money to burn in depreciaption, then I guess the choice is yours. But I would expect that you are one of the few people on the planet that would be willing to pay as much for a Targa 4S-X51 as a Turbo Coupe. I haven't been in a Targa myself, and can't quite see the appeal. It would not win the approval of my daughters in the back seat compared to our open air Cab, and yet does not offer the pure" 911 performance that the lighter weight C2S coupe would. A little bit preganant, if you ask me.
At that price level, my vote would be for the Turbo Coupe. But it's your money.
One other thing, the roof doesn't really provide the amount of open air you might expect. Slightly larger than the sunroof, but at the expense of the rear visibility issue.
Be real with yourself. Isn't the level of performance that you want the primary consideration? If you are wanting the Turbo-level of performance, then you clearly have your answer...get the Turbo Coupe. If, however, the open air is very important to you, and the Carrera S delivers enough power, then you might consider making the same decision I made, and get the Carrera S Cab. Good luck.
TagMan
Yes I am very aware of this. But there are inherent problems with ground clearance and lack of a spare. Winter is no time to be touring unprepared, and to me a 911 is a vehicle that is inherently unprepared for the combination of white stuff and anything even remotely resembling wilderness, being far from home, or unfamiliar places.
By the way, we love our Targa (although we love our 2006 C4 more, but don't tell our Targa I said that). The cabs let in too much wind, the sunroof of the coupe doesn't let in enough air, the Targa's sliding top is just right! And the visibility at the back is absolutely a non-issue.
Interesting to me. First, before I critique the Targa, let me say I am glad you love yours. That's important.
But, that said, are you suggesting that the rear visibility somehow is not blocked by nearly 40-50%?... or are you saying that it doesn't bother you. Because any way you slice it, there is a significant compromise to rear visibility... whether it bothers you or not.
For some, the Coupe's sunroof is just right as is its body structure, and there is improved rear visibility.
Also, regarding the idea of open motoring... the Targa can not reach anywhere near the level of open-air that is possible in the Cabriolet, and yet the Cab with the windows up and with the aerodynamics of the car, the wind can be kept to a minimun and almost eliminated with the additional use of the windscreen. At the touch of a button, the top is up in seconds without any assistance. Greater differential from fully open to fully closed. My personal favorite.
Is the Targa cool? Yes, it most definately is... but
for me, it isn't open air enough and I don't feel as comfortable as you do in compromising the rear visibility.
Clearly each model has a few unique strengths and weaknesses of its own, and it is fine to overlook them, but to deny them is not realistic, IMO.
Different strokes for different folks.
TagMan
Yes, I am saying that, and no, it doesn't bother me.
it isn't open air enough and I don't feel as comfortable as you do in compromising the rear visibility.
Like I said, I don't like it "air too much." So your "not air enough" is exactly right for me. And like I said, the rear visibility is (believe me, I have been driving it for 2 and a half years) a non-issue.
Clearly each model has a few unique strengths and weaknesses of its own, and it is fine to overlook them, but to deny them is not realistic, IMO.
Are you saying I am in denial? Well, in that case, I have been in denial for 2 and a half years and loving it.
Different strokes for different folks.
Exactly my point, isn't it? Since you have "critiqued" the Targa (and you don't even have one), I felt I needed to offer some balance in this forum.
I don't have a cab because I don't like a lot of its attributes, but I truly understand, like you said: "Different strokes for different folks."
On the other hand, there is nothing more fun to do (in a Porsche) during the holiday season than to blast up to Montreal from Boston on a Friday night, leave the car in front of the Ritz on Sherbrooke with the doorman and go over to St Catherines St. to unwind.
The grass is always greener (or is the snow always whiter?)...
One of my biggest problems with winter travel is ice. Like potholes it can hit you suddenly and without warning. I remember once hitting an unannounced, enormous patch of ice going within the speed limit and doing a complete 360 degree pirouette with absolutly no input on the controls or throttle. Luckily there were no cars near me, I was in the right lane away from the guard rails and we came to rest unaffected. So ever since then I have a great respect for winter and all of my affection for performance gets shelved.
Do you now have a 911? Sorry if you mentioned it and I missed it.
love car was delivered to Baltimore on Sat night via Truck. i have a question if anyone has answer engine light has come on "Check Engine" i do not believe it was from Gas fill up, Could it be from the change in air pressure going from Colorado top Baltimore? Car is mint 2000 miles beautiful inside and out but I am concerned check engine light has come on 3 days after purchasing. Dealer I bought it from thinks it change in altitude and will pay to have fixed if it anything else but was wondering if anyone had a clue to what causes check engine light?
I'm curious though - only 2,000 miles on a 6 year old 911? What's the story? I've always been told that any car that sits for extended periods is likely to have more problems than one that is driven regularly. Don't know if that could be why you are now getting a check engine light.
I have a 2005 Cab S purchased new 14 months ago and I'm nearing 12,000 miles. And that's with exercising some restraint. It's hard to believe that someone would buy such a great car to drive only 300-400 miles a year. :surprise:
Yep, black ice is a problem. Especially for the northern New England clowns in their F250s whose elevated seat height leads them to think they have supernatural powers over nature.
I'm very close to pulling the trigger this weekend and ordering:
997 C2
Bi-Xenon
Sport Crono
Metallic paint
As you can see, it's very close to a minimal-spec Carrera. My local dealer has offered to order it for me with $5K off MSRP. I haven't done any other shopping around.
I like the idea of purchasing it from my local dealer and am happy with the discount (what I hoping to get), so I'm very tempted to put in the order this weekend. Can you please give me some feedback regarding the discount (good/decent/poor)? Thanks in advance for any/all feedback.
I think that the markup of 997 is 14%, and your discount seems to be about 7%. You may get a better price from your dealer if you call around to other dealers, tell them the discount you were offered and see if they can beat that. Then go back to your dealer and see if he will match. fyi: I ordered my 997 C2S in Feb, 2006 with 8% off MSRP and live in the midwest.
Bottom line, I think you are being quoted a "decent" discount. Perhaps you could get $6-7k off shopping around - and you might want to make a couple of other calls just to satisfy your curiosity. But if you like the local dealer, let him know that you are willing to give him the business instead if they throw in some good hometown customer service. And a couple of free Porsche hats.
Good luck. And congrats on exercising "option restraint". A 911 C2 at $71k +/- will still give you 100% of the true enjoyment of driving a 911.
I am now able to buy a porsche, can spend ~120K and need some advice.
1) What are the opinions on i.e. a 05 Turbo S versus a newer 06 or 07 C4S or C2S
2) What features are "smart" to have?
Purpose is to have fun for few years and then to sell the car. I would sell the car when I am back in Europe (Netherlands) so which retains value better as well as is "sellable".
What are the opinions/advices??
Thanks
Dutchbuyer
-2007 997C2
-Arctic Silver/standard black interior
-Xenons
-Sport Chrono
-Black floor mats
The build date will be in February and I've been told delivery will be sometime in March (possibly early April).
I'm VERY VERY excited right now. I think once Christmas and New Years go by, I'm going to be hit with the realization that I have to wait around 2.5 more months for my car...that's going to probably be tough, but I'm not feeling it yet.
For the last 2.5 hours I've had a silly grin on my face that I can't seem to get rid of (sort of don't want to either!
Thanks to all for all your help and information (especially Habitat1).
:shades:
I have a friend who turned in his 2001 Turbo off lease several months ago and bought a new 2006 C2S as a replacement. His Turbo had been modified to produce 520+ horsepower and ft. Lbs. to the wheels, meaning that, in reality, it was faster than a Carrera GT. He had clocked 0-60 in 3.35 seconds and 11.0 for the 1/4 mile at a track event. But in 5 years, he had only put 11,000 miles on the car, barely 2,000 per year. Many of those miles were on highway runs to Porsche events in nearby states. The car got very little "daily" use, other than when he wanted to show it off.
His C2S, while not as blisteringly fast as the old Turbo, is more refined and a much better daily driver. He has logged nearly 4,000 miles in under 6 months, about 4 times the rate of use as his old Turbo. PASM, standard on the 997 "S" allows one to toggle between a track ready "sport" suspension and a "normal" setting that makes local streets a lot easier to manage.
I briefly considered a deal on a leftover 2005 Turbo Cab when I bought my C2S Cab last year. But frankly, I just liked the looks of the 997 much better than the 996, interior and exterior wise. And the 996 Turbo's additional power was something that I haven't missed in the 11,700 miles since. The C2S is plenty quick for my needs.
If you are looking for a quasi "track" car, the 996 Turbo (or 997 GT3) would be a good choice. But as a daily driver, I'd take a 997 C2S over the 996 Turbo. Or, if you want to have your cake and eat it too, find another $15k and go for a $135k 997 Turbo.
You raise a very good point looking at driving "comfort" versus speed. I guess what I am hearing that redoing the turbo in 2005 and even with the S version this did not change much of that.
Regarding resell value: the dealer was telling me he would always take i.e. a 2004 turbo versus 2006 or 2007 C4S C2S looking at it retaining it's value better if I would want to sell it in let's say 3 yrs. How do you see this or is the dealer trying to "sell me inventory"??
Thanks
1. His scenario compares a one-owner late model (though older body style) turbo vs. a new C2/4S . . .
2. Your actual scenario represents becoming the 2nd owner of a late model turbo . . .
To my mind, the more owners, the more of a discount . . .
However, when it comes to returns, it's all about what the price of the turbo is vs. the new 997 . . . that's where the rubber meets the road (sorry for the pun).
That being said, don't buy for the returns . . . if you're concerned about your returns, don't buy a Porsche.
Best of luck.
You should be able to get 7-9%+/- off on a new 997 C2S or C4S. As far as what a used 996 Turbo should sell for, I really have no idea. It seems that prices on used Turbos can vary significantly, and some dealers will try to mark the cars up much more than new cars. My friend's 2001 w/ 11k miles had a lease end residual of around $73,000 when he turned it in. The dealer added a Porsche extended warranty and put it on their showroom floor at $89,500. :surprise:
Today I did drive 3 different cars right after one another. I think I made the sales guy kind of scared since I drove "Europe style" and really was pushing it.
Turbo drove the sportiest (naturally) stiff and fast however.....I must say the C4S was also sporty with the Sports Chrono Package. You guys are right....you want the Sports Chrono!! C4S was also smoother shifting with clutch so....I really like the Cab. I was now still wondering C4s or C2S. From a safety perspective was leaning towards C4S.
I want to buy next week either a 2006 or 2007 (in Atlanta).
Dealer has a Black C4S 2006 (manual) for MSRP $110,260 with Power & heated seats, sports chrono, 19 " classic, wheelcaps, Bose, supple leather, Carbon center console, creste mats. What do you guys think?
Thanks for all the advice up to now really helps folks!!
Bottom line for me was that (a) the "2" is lighter, quicker and a bit easier on gas mileage than the "4", (b) the "4" looks a little more aggressive with the wider rear track (but you have to look closely), (c) the "4" would be better handling in inclement weather, but not on dry pavement (I don't play Mario in the rain) (d) the additional cost of the "4" was not insignificant ($6,000, as I recall). I opted to order a 2006 C2S Cab in Speed Yellow, but then decided to keep my Seal Grey one after all. No hard feelings from the dealer, they were able to sell it at a higher price than I had negotiated.
Be aware that the difference in quickness between the "2" and the "4" appears to be greater than Porsche's published figures. My dealer let me drive a broken in C4S back to back with my C2S and a C2. The C4S and C2 were neck and neck, with the C2S a definite notch up from both. My dealer (former factory engineer) explains that the "4", in addition to the added weight, does have lower drive train efficiency, the combination of which eat up most of the 30hp difference between a base 911 and "S" model. You might not find that difference in quickness important. But for me, coming directly out of a C2S, I wouldn't have wanted to pay more for a "trade-up" that wasn't as quick or responsive as the one I already had. That said, none of these are slow cars and you should get the one you like.
I'd shoot for under $100k on the 2006 C4S if that's the car you really want. Unless you happen to really like them, supple leather and carbon trim are aesthetic options that appear to have little, if any resale value (compared to power seats, bose, sports chrono, nav). Good luck.
We have a member asking questions about ordering a new one, and about pricing..
I know you were considering a Boxster S.. maybe you could give him some insights? (or anyone else here..)
Porsche Boxster: Prices Paid & Buying Experience #2
Thanks!
kyfdx
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I'm an avid 914 restoration person who finally decided to buy the best car Porsche makes as of 2007. I purchased the 997 Turbo, fully customized on Porsche's web site after searching long and hard for a dealership who had an open allocation still. I opted for the Sport/Chron package, the Sport shift package and the sport seats, all in black leather. The dealer threw in the CD Changer for free as I paid cash for the car. I had her painted Metallic Midnight blue. total invoice cost was $127K and change. I waited 8 months from the point where I made my deposit until delivery in late october.
My initial impressions after putting just a little over 2200 miles on her before snow started to fall are thus;
I am VERY impressed with the car. Her performance is astonishing. She is extremely comfortable to drive at high speeds and corners like nothing I have ever driven with the AWD system and 4 feet of rubber on the road. The response time on the twin VTG turbines is immediate. Though she only pushes 480 HP, she is certainly much quicker from a dead start to 100 MPH than any car I have driven to date. though there are few roads in this god awful state where you can actually engage and enjoy the Sport mode, I did manage to have some incredible fun with her on the "Kancamangus" highway, a 33 mile stretch which bisects the whte mountains in NH. I clocked the 33 miles of hairpin corners and curvaceous mountain dropoffs in just a little under 18 minutes (I was cautious, being the first time on that road in a few years and not knowing the road conditions/traffic/pedestrians, etc.)
Overall, I highly recommend the car if it can still be purchased and I cant imagine what they will improve upon in 2008. I have heard a rumor that there is a software upgrade, larger turbines and new exhaust with which I can extract 606 HP from this beautifully engineered motor. Is there any truth to this?
Merry christmas to all and have a safe new years! Look for me on the road in the coming spring!
Trace
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The back seats are tight but I think that you will run out of 'head' room before you run out of leg room. i.e. your kids heads will most likely be above the seat backs before leg room becomes a serious problem.
As far as I know the main difference between the Cab and the Coupe is not in the rear seat leg room, but in the angle of the back seat. In the coupe, it angles back. In the cab, because of the area occupied by the retracted top, the seatbacks are almost straight up and down. In the showroom, both of my daughters complained. When we took a cab out for a test drive with the top down, they were smiling the whole time.
Most of the kids time in the back has been relatively shorter drives. Longer highway drives of 1-2 hours at 65mph+ with the top down can get tough on them due to the wind and noise. When we've gone to the eastern shore of MD from DC, we often go with the top down, return with it up.
For my kids, the tradeoff of the fun in the sun Cab for slightly less seat comfort than the coupe was worth it.
Good luck. The 911 does make a great "family car".
I'd be interested in seeing a side by side measurement comparison.
My guess is that, if you are like me, our definitions of comfort have changed over the years. Nearly thirty years ago in college, I drove my 1978 Datsun B210 GX hatchback with three 5'10" to 6'2" fraternity brothers 1,200 miles each way to Florida on spring break. I don't know if there is a car on the market today that is that small (it weighed about 2,100 lbs). If four comparably sized adults just tried squeezing in one today, you would need an orthopedic surgeon to extract them. I can't believe we also fit a weeks worth of luggage in the hatch.
Similarly, I recently saw an original Mercedes 300E sedan (1987, I believe). It looks no bigger than a 2007 Honda Civic. Probably more room because of the boxy design, but an amazing difference from the current E class.
I seem to remember foot room being a little tight, but no other problems.. I put the driver's seat pretty far back.. Of course, the targa has more rear seat head room than a coupe, I think..
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Targa 4S
Black
Sand Full Leather Interior
Classic Wheels
Bose
Navi
Power Seats
Heated Seats
Park Assist
Sport Chrono
Stainless Steel Exhaust Pipes
Module for Phone
Hmm...think that is it. Was going to get crest in the seats but reconsidered (think its cheesy). Here are my questions...anyone please sound off!
Sports Seats vs Regular. I thought the regular seats were very comfortable when i test drove it. I dont think fitting in the sports seats will be an issue (I am 32, 6 ft, 185 lbs) but really not sure i like how it looks and how comfortable i will be in general. My dealer didnt have a car on the lot with sports seats so i havent checked it out in person yet. Anyone have the same dilemma? Was it worth getting the sports seats? Is it really necessary? (I am not going to race it...at least i dont think).
Porsche Crest in seats - anyone have this? Seemed cool...then cheesy. Any opinions would be appreciated.
In general - any cool options i am missing? Anything i got that someone thinks is overrated?
Someone on the board (I think some woman or hab) mentioned that she knows someone "in the know" who says the performance level (I think she meant quickness mostly) of a C2 is the same as a C4S (i think making the comment that the 4 and S basically cancel each other out). Is this true? Am i paying an extra $25k for anything? As a novice, I was under the impression the 4 will give better handling and the S is more powerful. I realize the Targa only comes in a 4 but was just curious about that post. Essentially, i would expect my Targa 4S to have better performance than a C2...but i could be wrong.
For hard core Porsche lovers, is the Targa considered a brilliant balance between the coupe and cab or a faux (for lack of a better word)? Just curious.
Anyway, would love to hear feedback from hardcore Porsche drivers. Hopefully, I will be driving one (or more) for the next 40 years. Also saw some pics of the 2012 928....http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/11785/2012-porsche-928.html. for anyone curious...
Thanks again guys (and gals).
On the "S" and "4" performance question, it's a trade-off:
The "S" gives you 30 more horsepower and around 25 more ft-lbs. Essentially, an 8-10% increase.
The "4" adds roughly 100 lbs to the weight of the car. In addition, as others have previously mentioned, the "drive train efficiency" of the "4" is lower than that of the "2". This is due to the additional differentials and mechanicals needed by the AWD system. If you measure horsepower to the wheels on a dyno for a "4", you would have less than the "2". Not a lot, but I'd guess 3-5% less.
Combined, the 3%+/- added weight and 3-5% lower drivetrain efficiency of the "4" almost equate to the total horsepower difference between the 3.6 base and 3.8 liter "S" engines. Which is consistent with some having claimed that the C2 feels as quick as a C4S. Porsche's published performance figures claim no difference in acceleration times between a "2" and a "4". I suspect the marketing folks had something to do with that, since they don't want to discourage a $6k option. But from my test drives, the C2 and C2S are quicker than their C4 and C4S counterparts.
Presumably, the value of the "4" is in handling and stability. IMO, this is the case on less than ideal road surfaces. However, on smooth, dry roads, I'd actually prefer RWD over AWD (lighter, nimbler). With the 911 Turbo (as with the Targa) I didn't have a choice. But if I were buying any of the other 911 variants (coupe or cabriolet), I'd likely choose the RWD version for myself. The 997's advanced skid control system (PSM) goes a long way to removing the risk of the back end breaking free when not intended. Bottom line, the "2" vs. "4" is a subjective decision that only you can make considering your planned driving conditions and personal preferences. And if you get the Targa, you can save those brain cells for another task.
On the Targa itself, I'm not going there. Some think it's the perfect balance. Other's refer to it as a little bit pregnant. I really don't have a strong opinion - but even if I did, you are spending your money, not mine.
Colors / Options:
Black exterior, sand interior: Absolutely Beautiful. Hope you aren't married. This will become your high maintenance wife. For those of us that have "been there, done that" you know what I mean. I went with Meteor Gray and black. I like my real wife.
Sport seats: Not that much of a difference, except in adjustable side bolsters. Whatever you get, you'll be happy with. If you go for sport seats, make sure you price it with the "adaptive" sport seats (already power/memory), rather than sport + power seperately.
Porsche crests (headrest, I assume): A nice little touch on the cabriolet. Not sure they are worth it in the coupe or targa.
Other options worth considering: Sport exhaust (instead of stainless steel tips). Looks good, sounds great and, in combination with the sport chrono, feels quicker. Also, consider sport shifter, CD changer, self dimming mirrors.
Good luck.
Sports Seats: I recommend them. Based on your height and weight, I'm guessing you and I are a similar build. While you are likely to put on weight over time, I think you'll find the Sport Seats fit well and are a bit nicer compliment to the sporty nature of the car. As another response went, I agree that you should go for the Adaptive Sport Seats, especially for the infinite adjustment potential. I have dual power seats in my Boxster, but wish I also had the Sport Seats.
Crests: I'm not a fan of the look and I think it is a good example of an obnoxiously priced option. If you invest the $400 - $500 for twenty years it very well could be a nice down payment on your next Porsche.
C2 vs. C4: I'm thinking through the same. I love the look of the wider rear but clearly that's secondary to the car's feel. If you are really keeping it for such a long time I also think you need to consider the potential for problems w/ the car. I'm too lazy to look it up but you might only be able to get the targa w/ a C2 configuration, in which case this is a mute point. If you can go w/ a C2, I honestly would do that. Definitely spring for the S, in my opinion. Well worth it in the short and long run.
Targa: I'm expecting to buy a hardtop myself. I figure the sunroof is enough and over the long haul will likely prove the best overall. I love the boxster top but find myself rarely taking the time to open it up. Previous targas have leaked, in some cases quite badly. Not sure this one will, but the next twenty years is a really long time.
Colors: Black or not black. I have a lot of friends who have regretted buying a black car. I think the best color you can buy is silver...it is timeless and withstands the tests of time (i.e. durability) very well. I plan on either white (rather plain, I know) or silver. I plan to either buy HRE wheels or order the dark gray wheels if I conclude the silver is too uniform w/ the standard wheels.
I wish you the best of luck and am certain whatever choices you will make will prove to provide a great return for many years. Take care!
Adam
Thanks for the info for the 4 and S. Since I am "in love" with the Targa, I dont really have a choice to go without the 4 but i guess it cant hurt since i am Chicago.
Re: color. I can only assume you mean that black will show every little mark, scratch, dirt, etc. Good thing i am single!
Re: other options. I cant find that damn sport shifter option anywhere! I looked under "Performance" but wasnt there (couldnt find it anywhere else as well). Also, not getting the CD changer because my dealer has some aftermarket guy to install an ipod hookup (truly bizarre the factory doesnt offer it on a $100k car).
One more thing...I am just a moron for accepting sticker price? I called two dealers and i got the "only 1,800-2,000 Targas are being built worldwide, you are lucky to get one at all" type of response.
Although, I have to ask, with all of the options you are planning - and those suggested by spirit - aren't you getting up into the $110-115k range (MSRP)? I'm not sure what kind of discount you can get on a custom ordered Targa 4S since they are still new, but that MSRP is "only" $20k short of a loaded Turbo. Sorry, had to tempt you with that thought.
I forgot to add my 2 cents that black will be a tough color to keep looking good for two years, let alone 20. The metallic blacks are a little better, but in addition to remaining single, you'll need to have a tolerance for swirl marks.
The factory sport shifter is $765. Shortens the throws a little. It can be done after the fact - my dealer would charge roughly $800 in total, parts and labor.
Now, on paying full MSRP for a Targa 4S. Ouch. That's what my local dealers told me in the spring of 2005 on a Cab. I waited 4-5 months and picked up a new 2005 in September for a $10k discount. Worth the wait to me. But I wasn't convinced I'd keep the car for more than 2-3 years and didn't want to get double dinged on resale. If you really plan on keeping the car for a decade or more, that's a different story.
You're young enough that you probably know how to burn your own MP3s. (Hell, I'm 61 and I know how!) If I'm right, and you do, the CD changer is not only a waste of money, the CD changer does NOT play MP3s while the single CD player does.
My advice to you would be to plan on getting another vehicle to use in the worst weather. Even a C4 with snow tires isn't going to plow through 4-6+ inches of fresh snow without some problems. And even if it could, the wear and tear of subjecting a $75k+ sports car to winter road hazards, chips, dings, salt, etc. would, in my opinion, more than justify the cost of a second used car or SUV to use during bad weather conditions.
Thanks for all your help a few weeks ago! I made the decision and bought the 2005 Turbo S with only 980 miles. It's GT Silver & Black interior!
Look forward to telling you more about the driving experience after some miles.
Thanks again for all your help, it really helped me as a "newbie".
PS:Now looking for hardtop that will fit the Turbo S and in same color. Anyone know one I can pick up?