Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

qbrozen

Is it just me or does it look like the carpets and bottom of some door panels have rust stains??

I think it looks nice ... but that's a lot of money for a 22-year-old money-sponge. Just looking at that engine compartment makes me cringe.

andre1969

Looks like the carpeting has some kind of stains on it, like bleach or some kind of cleaning chemical stains.

Also, I'm seeing all sorts of alignment issues with the doors, trunk, hood, etc. Did they really build them that bad, or has this one been taken apart and put back together again like that barbeque grille on "I Love Lucy"?

qbrozen

like that barbeque grille on "I Love Lucy"

LOL!

fintail

Right on about the AMC interior comparison.

1980s Italian car...the fit and finish looks about right. I bet those things could rust into a pile of dust in no time, too. Why anyone would have picked this over a Mercedes W126 is beyond me. Today, for the money and self-torture, just buy a period Rolls, it's classier and probably barely a worse drive.

jaserb

My latest Alfa project looks just a weee bit nicer than that one.

And it cost me, oh, about $749 less. :P

-Jason

Mr_Shiftright

Probably the only advantages over a Mercedes is that the interiors are really wonderful to sit in, instead of being the typical German detention cell (hard, cold)of the period, and the Masers are really fun to drive vis a vis a Benz. The V-8 sounds great and revs up quickly and the car handles really well for a big 'un. Smooth and silent and silky. More like an XJ6 than a Benz. You know, Italian, not German.

The downsides of course are numerous, but really the biggest problem is no parts and no service...other than that......

jrosasmc

Now that you mention it I want to offer up some comments per interiors- I have sat inside a Maserati (Biturbo) before, just once, but I have to say it felt real sumptuous to be in. The leather and plastics used seemed to be of a really high quality back then, along the lines of a Jaguar's or Range Rover's interior...very classy. German cars, especially BMWs in my opinion, did feel dark and Spartan inside. The seats felt like a park bench, to be honest.

Now how about Swedish interiors? They do make very comfortable front seats, I'm not going to lie, but back in the '80s it seemed as if they fell apart very quickly. I remember both Saab and Volvo using abominable leather which would deteriorate fast, the dash pads would crack like no other, and the headliners would fall down after only a few years. Shifty, I think you'll back me up on this one.

fintail

So really, then, a Maserati is an Italian Jaguar, in so many ways.

british_rover

Not as pretty to look at on the outside though.

xwesx

Hahhahahahah! Wow.... you are being extremely generous! :P

lilengineerboy

Another Italian

Mr_Shiftright

The truly ugly Italian car is rare but it can happen---as opposed to some countries, where awkward design seems to be a matter of national pride. The Maser actually looks better in person---it is a "dated" design, which is why it does not appeal to the modern eye nor to the classical eye---it's just a form of body style we are not likely to see again...many 80s cars were "wedged" and "blocky" IMO. Not a flattering shape for a car.

benjaminh

mint condition, and the bidding is up to 6k:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SURVIVOR-ORIGINAL-MINT-SHOW-QUALITY-2dr-Hard-Top-- NORES_W0QQitemZ290029925801QQihZ019QQcategoryZ6178QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV- iewItem

andre1969

I REALLY like that New Yorker! First and foremost, I love the fact that it's a true hardtop coupe! While the hardtop coupe was available up through 1978, most of them had an extra-cost option that gave them a landau roof and fixed opera windows. The Newport 2-door hardtops were a bit more common, although they offered a landau roof/opera window package on those as well. But with the cheaper price of the Newport, I'm guessing most people weren't going to pay extra to not have their rear windows roll down!

Secondly, I'm sure that most people would hate that shade of green, but I love it! Especially with the coordinated green velour interior. I've noticed that Ford put out some really garish green interiors back then, but I think Chrysler actually pulled them off pretty tastefully. Or it could just be that it happens to look good in velour...that color might actually have kind of a greasy look in leather.

I don't think I've ever seen a New Yorker of this vintage in that color. Usually it seems like they're silver, brown, white, or black.

oregonboy

Double Wow.

Leave it to Andre to love that green dinosaur (no offence intended, man.) It's just that you like cars that are so, um... how to put this nicely... anachronistic.

a.nach.ro.nis.tic -[uh-nak-ruh-nis-tik] That which is out of its proper or chronological order, especially a person or practice that belongs to an earlier time.

Although I guess he's not alone, since the car is being bid up. I just cracked up when I saw the interior! :P

james

fortee9er

Hi Guys,
I am new to this forum and noticed the comments on the Maserati Quattroporte (translation, 4 doors). I own 2 of these beauties and will agree that the gas mileage was miserable and that the asking price on this particular auction is too high. The seat have been redone in incorrect leather. The engine has had some of the emissions stuff diasabled/removed.
The QP in this auction is a series 3 not a series 1. Series 1 were built starting 1963 - 1970. The second series was a rebodied Citroen SM - to put it very simply. It never went into production after a few were built.
Series 3 were built 1979 - 1989. The sticker price was $68,000. including Luxury Tax and Gas Guzzler Tax. The cars were completely hand built. There is virtually no plastic in the interiors as almost every surface is covered in leather.
The carpeting tends to get bleached with prolonged exposure to the sun. Parts are not as hard to find as you would think. Other than the sheetmetal and the engine everything else can be found on other more mundane cars.
The engines have a reputation of longevity if looked after. I have talked to people who have racked up nearly 300k miles without an overhaul.
But overall as someone here said a "money sponge".
I look forward to reading your comments on different cars.

fortee9er

I am looking at getting a new (to me) vehicle for my wife. Which means it has to be fairly reliable (I want to work on my projects not the family car), cold a/c (I live in Texas), and seat 5 - 7 people comfortably. Oh yes, and get decent gas mileage considering the other requirements.
If money was no object a Honda Odyssey or a Toyota Sienna would be the order of the day but I can't see paying nearly $30k for a new one or pay the high price of a used ones.
Are there any other minivans or SUVs that would meet my requirements and still be had for a reasonable price?
My wife's current vehicle was a 1998 GMC Safari (107K) until it was wrecked. The GMC Safari had lousy brakes, the a/c compressor had to be replaced twice, the plastic intake cracked and needed to be replaced, the paint on the roof and the hood is peeling off like birch bark, and the seat leather was of poor quality.On the plus size it could carry up to eight people or with the seats out two full size sofas and more.
Thanks

benjaminh

2500 original miles. For sale by the original owner:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Oldsmobile-98-Regency-4-Door-Sedan_W0QQitemZ25003- 1133099QQihZ015QQcategoryZ6407QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

benjaminh

Good condition, but bidding has stalled at 2k:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110033679004&- ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001

Update: remember that black Riviera with the woody Ploody interior? It went for $4500. I think that's a pretty good deal for that car, because it was optioned to the gills and looked to be in good shape. I kinda wish I had that one in my driveway. Not practical for someone with kids like me. sigh.

Re: Minivans. If you really want the Honda and Toyota quality and reliability, you kind of have to pay for it. It true that new they are expensive (I think the least expensive Odyssey lists for about $26k, but with discounts might be 24k), but used they are pretty expensive too. They keep their resale value pretty well, and so unless it has had a lot of miles and a lot of use, you are not going to pay that much less than new for one that's a couple of years old.

Used minivans from GM, Ford, and Chrysler, however, are cheap. Their resale values drop like a rock, and you can get loaded ones that are 4-5 years old for less (sometimes much less) than 50% of their original list prices. The problem is, Consumer Reports and other people not only say that these minivans aren't as good new, but are less reliable as they age.

Basically, in my opinion, if you want a cheap one get a used American minivan. But if you want that Honda and Toyota reliability and performance, you may have to bite the bullet and pay for it.

fintail

That cranky old codger has listed that thing about a dozen times in the past couple years. Apparently he's a camera collector, so he thinks his car should generate the same ROI as a prewar Leica. Shame, as it is a lovely looking old car, but the ad conveys a heavy jerkiness and a reserve that is almost certainly 20K if not more.

jaserb

Go find a 2006 MPV at the Mazda dealer. Stoopid cheap, lots of room for the size, and drives like a reasonably athletic car. Since they're not coming back for 2007 I betcha you can find a decently loaded up model for 17-18k or so. It has the folding 3rd row seat, front and rear air, roll down windows in the sliding doors, and it's the only minivan actually built in Japan. Ours hasn't given a lick of trouble in 30k so far.

-Jason

Mr_Shiftright

Well now you know how much you'll get if you put your brand-new 2006 Chrysler away in storage until 2036

Maserati -- oops, my bad, Series 3 not 2. Can you really find parts? I've helped friends with a Mistral and a Mexico restoration and we had a hell of a time both times...there's like one or two sources and they are monopolies and stick it to you with a gruesome vengeance. Perhaps the 80s cars are more accessible?

Yep, the V8s are tough engines--that's not where you'll have the troubles.

fortee9er

Yes, there is MIE that has a monopoly on parts in the US but there are many other parts you can get from other sources. The transmissions and the starters are Mopar products, the a/c compressor was made by York, the fuel pumps can be replaced with Facet pumps. The biggest challenge is finding what parts can be interchanged. There are people on the web who are happy and willing to help with this information but it takes time.
QPs don't sell for much money not anywhere close to Mistral or Mexicos and getting one put right costs more than the cars are worth.

Mr_Shiftright

Well okay...but when I think of "parts" I think of like....MG or Alfa....where you open the catalog, pick out the part, call them up and WHAM two days later UPS...anything you want, any part on the entire car. But of course MGs and Alfas were far more prolific in the US.

jlflemmons

You guys may know your BMW's, Mercedes, and all those other fancy cars I can't spell, but I know a few things about Olds, and something about this car doesn't work for me. I can honestly say I have never seen an '80 Regency with telescoping steering column. Tilt, yes, but not telescoping. Some of his mods make no sense. Why do you keep a car this pristine for this long, but don't keep it original? Chrome Sway bar? Buick wheels? And apparently the car has never seen a wet road. The add says the car was undercoated when new, and painted immediately. The paint in these pictures is fresh. Also a small thing. Note that in all the pictures the radio antenna. It is up. As in the leader in the electric antenna has broken and doesn't work. Usually happens after a lot of raise and lower, not what you would expect on a car with such low miles. I also noticed that the bidding went up $3000 in $500 increments in less than one minute. Interesting.

I know, I am being picky. But there are just some things about this car that shout out "buyer beware".

Mr_Shiftright

Given what the car is, whether it has 2,500 miles, or 25,000, or 250,000, it doesn't much matter to the marketplace. It's just a nice used car and that makes it worth $5k-6K until the cows come home. He should just sell it for whatever and be done with it. It's not going to get any better in 5 future auctions or 10 or in the year 2056.

jlflemmons

This guy is so upside down on this one and apparently doesn't have a clue. A brand new at full sticker with heavy heavy options comes in $500 less because of $2K rebate.

2006 Hummer H3

andre1969

know, I am being picky. But there are just some things about this car that shout out "buyer beware".

Another thing I noticed about that Olds is that, for supposedly only having 2500 miles on it, the fabric on the driver's seat looks a bit worn. And unless it's just the camera angle or lighting, the gas and brake pedals look pretty worn as well.

My Grandma's '85 LeSabre had the same pedals, and they looked about like that when we got rid of it. With 157,000 miles on it. And the seat held up really well except where Granddad burned a hole in one with a cigarette. However, its seats were a solid gray, with no pattern to wear off, so maybe the Olds style just showed wear better? Still, it would take more than 2500 miles of butt time to do that!

I'd say one saving grace of this car is that it has the Olds 350 and not the 307. In '77-79 these cars had the 350 standard and a 403 optional. The 350's not too embarrassing in a car this size, and the 403 could actually make them kinda fun. But the 307 is just a bit overmatched for them.

Oh well, it could be worse. For 1981 they went to the Buick 4.1 V-6 as the standard engine. I wonder what kind of 0-60 time 125 hp, ~200 foot-pounds of torque, and nearly 4,000 pounds would equate to? Maybe 16-17 seconds?

I do like this '80, but it's bid up more than what I'd want to pay for one!

benjaminh

400k to start:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1954-Mercedes-Benz-Gullwing_W0QQitemZ220029935402- QQihZ012QQcategoryZ6338QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Believe it or not, my grandfather owned one of these, but I think it was a 58. My father got it for him in Germany, drove it around Europe, and then brought it back home to him. I never saw it, since I was born in 64. I think he got rid of it after only owning it five years or so. Apparently the cost of repairs and maintenance turned him off. After that he bought only American cars. If he'd kept it, it would have been a great investment. He was an architect, and we have a German name, and I suppose he must have liked the design. I wish he'd kept it long enough for me to ride in it.

Re: that Olds 98. I think the owner, to be blunt, may possibly be a serious nut.

Re: that Volvo wagon. I decided that buying a Volvo with over 130k miles would be a major Las Vegas play. My Olds 98 only has 125k miles, and I know all of the things that have been repaired and replaced in nearly 9 years--tires, ac, brakes, alternator, cv boots, on and on. And the Volvo is a lot more complicated, what with abs and traction control, and it doesn't seem like that much has been fixed. It's like a time bomb waiting to go off.

Mr_Shiftright

300SL seller is nuts. I doubt that even an SL that actually WON a concourse rather than "attended" one, and that had all the desirable pieces, like belly pans, luggage and Rudge wheels, and that was restored by someone other than "Bud's Benz", would bring 400K -- much less this car. While nice, it's just a 5 year old restoration by now.

Try 275K on this car and be grateful to get it.

The Gullwing is a wonderful car in many ways but not all that much fun after a few hours. There's little ventilation and LOTS of engine and transmission heat. The 300 Roadster is really a much more pleasant, exciting and even CHEAPER car.

qbrozen

I second the MPV vote. Although I wouldn't get a new one. Big discounts on the new just mean the used are that much cheaper. Find a low low mile slightly used one and save thousands.

Good to have another voice to add to the discussion. Especially one who has owned italian machinery.

benjaminh

Looks to be in good condition. Not surprisingly, there's not a single taker yet at $3800:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1982-citroen-CX-athena_W0QQitemZ130029713002QQihZ- 003QQcategoryZ6183QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I guess I have peculiar tastes, but I think Citroen in the 70s and 80s made some neat looking cars. I love the still futuristic (to me) steering wheel. Does Citroen still make interesting cars in France?

Mr_Shiftright

Gotta love that bathroom scale dashboard.

benjaminh

"don't have key." Bidding is at $102:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/770420120106042-B_W0QQitemZ130029039042QQihZ003QQ- categoryZ6328QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Can it be saved? Looks pretty unlikely.

I thought twice about my grandfather's gullwing. Probably good he didn't keep it. What with trying to recoup 50 years of storage, repairs, maintenance, and insurance (like that Olds 98 nut) there's probably no way to make that investment pay off either. He was better off putting money into his retirement. Cars are almost always money losing propositions. The goal is to minimize the loses while enjoying your ownership experience. At least that's my goal. Which rules out almost all project cars for me. But for some it might be something that takes their minds off of their worries and lowers their blood pressure. And I'm glad some people fix the old things up.

fintail

Cheap alternative to that nutty 98

Could it look worse?

"Invested" might not be the right term

fintail

That sad old 190 is beyond reasonable redemption, but could be a good parts car...cool blinds in the back window anyway.

I think the best old cars are old restorations or nice originals...cars in kind of a maintained state of neglect. Then you don't have to worry about wearing it out or getting a scratch or ding - you can just drive it and enjoy it.

fintail

Citroen made many cool cars during that time....the CX is a very cool design.

They make some very interesting stuff now, too. There's a current version of that CX on the market now, the C6



I don't like gullwings in white. Silver, please.

benjaminh

looks sharp, but I don't think it's worth that much:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/600-Pullman-Limousine-1970_W0QQitemZ180031031396Q- QihZ008QQcategoryZ6315QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I love that Citroen CX! Where on the web did you find it? Any interior shots?

benjaminh

What do those things really go for these days? Is the price realistic? Our rich neighbors owned one when I was a kid.

That Eldorado was pathetic. "Runs great"? I find it hard to believe that it can move under its own power at all.

fortee9er

Thanks to all for your mini van advice. If you guys had to rank the following mini vans, in what order would you rank them best to worst when it came to reliability/durability. I would be looking at 2003 - 2005 models not new ones.
Chrysler/Doge
Chevrolet/GM Venture
Ford Freestar
Mazda MPV
Nissan Quest
Thanks

fintail

MB 600 or any M-100 Mercedes is for the wealthy enthusiast. They are very complex and temperamental, especially a 600, which is probably one of the most complex cars ever built. It looks really pretty, but the price is probably too high yeah.

Here's the official C6 site

The Delorean seller is certainly a few grand too ambitious, never mind his "investment".

Mr_Shiftright

I can't imagine how you would sell such a car. Basically, all 12 people in the world who want one now have one, so who would it appeal to? What with being as long as a train, and with $1,500 water pumps and god knows how much to rebuild an engine, and very complex, very old technology (hydraulic windows and seats and full air suspension), this is some kind of scary car. I know these cars quite well, used to drive them all the time for Mercedes PR stuff.

The SWB (the "shorty model") would be a saner purchase, but it is also 5X more common. There are more 600s around than you might think.

Value? I'm thinkin' between $45,000--$65,000 should be more than enough for the best of the best, in the real world. With such an unfavorable supply and demand ratio, asking prices are no gauge of value in this case.

DELOREAN: the price is about right. They are worth between $14,000---$18,000 for a nice one....which is what they were worth 5 years ago and what they will be worth 5 years from now. This car in a sentence? "A stagnant, second-tier collectible".

w9cw

I'm only about 40 to 50 miles north of the seller of the Gullwing. Anybody willing to spend at least $400K want me to check it out? I won't hold my breath on this one.

fortee9er

A few months ago I inherited my father's 1994 Mercury Grand Marquis GS. The car only has 34k miles but doesn't look that good because hurricane Wilma blew the roof off my folks condo and it landed on the Mercury leaving a dented roof, rear quarter panel and trunk lid. Aside from the body damage (I've been quoted $2k for the body work) the car seems to be plagued by electrical gremlins:
Odometer/trip odometer not working.
Clock not working.
A circuit problem with the circuit that has the air bag "diagnostic module" keeps the air bag warning light flashing - code 12.
Transmission frequently shifts in and out of OD causing the car to jerk while in motion.
Cruise control not working.
Rear door power windows - motors and regulators out of commission.
A/C has a slow refrigerant leak.
I am glad I got this car because after my wife's mini van was wrecked she had another car to use but it looks like crap. I am not sure how far to go with this car - is it worth it?
Thanks

Mr_Shiftright

Doesn't seem like it's worth it, given the extremely low value of the car.

andre1969

I wouldn't put any major money into the car, but if you're in a situation where you just need something to get around in, I'd drive it until something major goes wrong with it. Maybe just have the transmission checked out. Sometimes those things have a problem with the lockup torque converter and that causes them to jerk and lurch...it might not be the actual 4th gear.

The engines and transmissions on these cars were pretty durable, so it could last you a long time. The only problem is that you'd have a car that lasts along time but looks like crap and has all those other problems wrong with it!

Maybe just try driving the thing until you can save up some money for something that you really want.

jlflemmons

If that sucker wasn't so far away, I would buy it today for my new driving 16yo son. the only thing that doesn't help is the Chevy 305 engine instead of the Olds 350. Those Delta's were built solid and still command top dollar in this area, at least for one in the condition described. Easily a $2500 car down here.

qbrozen

there is just no chrysler/chevy/ford minivan I trust.

so i'd go MPV, then Quest. The others are not even considerations. I suppose, if I had a gun to my head, I'd put the Venture up top. Chrysler at the bottom.

I like NIssan's 3.5 engine, but that last gen of quests are just butt ugly, IMHO.

lilengineerboy

I would flip that, I think the Chrysler/Dodge minivans have a great usable package, while the dressed-up-as-a-psuedo_SUV GM minivans have uncomfortable 2nd and 3rd row seats and the cabin layout isn't as versatile.
I don't have first hand reliability info for the GMs but the drivetrain is nothing earth shattering so I would expect reasonable reliability, and my experience with the Chryslers has been very positive.
You might also want to think about how big of a minivan you need, the Toyota and Honda are pretty huge (they are longer than a 80's full size van) and the Dodge comes in a long and short flavor. The older Toyota has enough glaring human factors flaws that I wouldn't recommend it. The MPV IIRC is in between the long and the short size, and if you need something smaller still,there's the Mazda5.

benjaminh

Nicely restored. Went for a nice price. It would be interesting if someone did a modern interpretation of this car. I suppose in Europe they had quite a few modern versions of it.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&item=23002977831- 8&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1