Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

qbrozen

Its so annoying to click on a car that says one particular price, but then they kick you over to ebay where you find out that's the current bid only and it hasn't even me the reserve!

just makes me want to email them and let them know I'd be happy to buy it at their advertised craigslist price.

Mr_Shiftright

69 ROlls: I have no idea how you would isolate the suspension system from the brake system, as they are integrated mechanically. You'd have to install an entirely new suspension system---basically, bolt the Rolls body onto an entirely new chassis. Nor would I have any idea how to get a GM engine to drive the hydraulic pumps. I'm sure all this engineering could be done, but good god, WHY?

'62 Impala SS: I don't think a 350 engine is correct in that car. Would have to be a 348 or a (gasp!) 409...looks like the most valuable part is the VIN plate and little SS pieces, so you could fake one (for either good or evil). A real find would be a '61 SS, they are quite rare. A 62 isn't all the valuable a car.

Volvo 850 -- it is my recollection that the 850 likes to eat transmissions and does not have the overall sturdiness of the earlier models.

qbrozen

it is my recollection that the 850 likes to eat transmissions and does not have the overall sturdiness of the earlier models.

i'm pretty sure yer recollecting incorrectly. (kinda a tongue twister)

I just had to make sure I religiously changed the fluid in mine every 30k miles or it would start slipping a bit. I've read of SOME trannies going, but usually in the T5 (too much power) and usually after ALOT of miles and little attention to proper tranny maintenance. So not unlike just about any other car.

benjaminh

I think perhaps it meant less than a loaded V-8 Buick at full list price.

Mr_Shiftright

You know, I distinctly recall talking to a Norwegian guy who worked for Volvo as a rep and he told me they had a hell of a time with the 850 transmissions...but it's possible by the late 90s they worked this out...I just remember this car getting slapped around by Consumer Reports, etc. when it first came out. It sort of makes sense as the driveline was a departure for Volvo in general----all new stuff, right?

andre1969

the Chevy 350 V-8 came out in 1969 or somewhere thereabouts, as a replacement for the 327. I think the 350 was better suited to emissions controls or something like that. Back in 1962 you could get an Impala SS with any engine that Chevy built, even the inline 6! I think most of them had 327's, which were usually set up for 250 or 300 hp IIRC. It could've also had a 283, which by then I think had about 195 hp.

fintail

Probably hiding a ruined finish on the steering wheel

qbrozen

ok. here's a good writeup on flushing the tranny.
http://volvospeed.com/Repair/Transflush.php

By the way... i remembered something else to check on. Find out if the PCV system has ever been serviced. If not, check REAL GOOD for oil leaks and, if you buy the car, get it serviced immediately. A clogged PCV system has commonly caused the rear main seal to blow. You don't want that! Again, preventative maintenance on this car is KEY!

qbrozen

Volvo auto trannies don't seem to be able to handle much power (which explains why the S60R and V70R autos had to be torque limited in the first 2 gears). So I think that explains part of any problems that may occur. I think you'd be pretty safe with a nonturbo model, however.

I went searching on the dedicated boards for 850 tranny troubles and I really couldn't find many, and those I found so far were high mileage examples (200k). Maybe the early problematic ones have already met their demise and the forum chatter ceased long ago ... who knows?

qbrozen

oh, shifty, you MAY be thinking of the 940. According to msnautos, those have SEVERE problems with the tranny, along with the HVAC.

Mr_Shiftright

Could be... Iin fact, I don't know where the car's reputation for reliability ever came from, except maybe the distant past...I guess their sturdy chassis is part of the myth that's valid (frame, front end, suspension, etc.) but my impression is that they were pretty cheesy compared to German cars in body integrity (trim, interior) and rather rough mechanically (vibration, noise). They sounded like coffee grinders under the hood. They were never a very sophisticated car. Perhaps their simplicity at one time served to boost their reputation for reliability. The joke in the repair shops in the 70s and 80s was: "Volvo---the car for people who hate automobiles".

The new ones drive real nice, though. They've certainly joined the rest of the world. I'd like a dollar though for every camshaft and exhaust system that self-destructed in a 140, 240, 740 series car, and a dime for every knob or handle that fell off them....

I'd guess you say the 850 was the beginning of the modern era for Volvo.

qbrozen

my impression is that they were pretty cheesy compared to German cars in body integrity (trim, interior) and rather rough mechanically (vibration, noise).

And, as a fan, I accept those things in exchange for spending far less than I would on German vehicle with comparable ammenities and power. Its what makes volvo a 'tweener.

lilengineerboy

'80 Spitfire

He seems very proud of this car. I love it when they get offended when the car isn't meeting the reserve and imply that I as a potential buyer am an idiot for not seeing the intrinsic value in the vehicle.
That said, he might not be far off, but its fun to watch.

jlflemmons

"I got a question: just how does one rub through the paint with their elbow in only 39k miles?"

Does Lucas do paint jobs, too?

andre1969

I got a question: just how does one rub through the paint with their elbow in only 39k miles?

If you deliver pizzas and get a little bit of their flour and dough on your elbow/forearm, and get it on the paint it'll eat through it quicker than that! At least, back when I used my Dart to deliver pizzas, it didn't take long for that crap to eat through the paint on the metal part of the door interior.

When I worked at Little Caesar's, they didn't do that great of a delivery business, so I spent a lot of time indoors, making the pizzas, answering phones, etc. No matter how hard you tried to stay clean, you'd get that flour and crap on you and track it into the car.

Now when I worked for Papa John's, they actually hand-tossed their pizzas instead of running it through a sheeter machine. Thankfully, I never got the knack down for tossing it (wait, that doesn't sound quite right :surprise: ) and they did a much better delivery business, so I didn't have to help out as much making the pizzas, so I didn't get that stuff all over me. By that time I was driving a car with full vinyl on the doorpanels too, my '79 Newport, so it was easier to wipe up.

But, I'm guessing that guy didn't use his Spitfire to deliver pizzas. :P

Mr_Shiftright

These are pretty edgey cars, even when new...we are talking a rather grim build quality level here, and grimmer performance.

If he got bid up to $4,000, I'd sure take it if I were him. $5,500 is for a top notch car, and this one looks a bit dirty, nothing special, low miles or not.....

In short, this car isn't worth much and will never be worth much, not even in another 25 years. If it were a 60s model, then yeah, $5,500 would be a good price.

Another classic case of the owner thinking he has way more than he actually does....perhaps confusing his car with earlier models....

Personally I wouldn't give more than $2,500 for it, tops. It's just not a very enjoyable car to own or drive....

w9cw

Shifty's right on with this one. My 1970 144S required a new exhaust system every 12 to 18 months. It never made any difference if it was OEM, Stebro, Abarth, or Midas. Quite a difference compared to my trusty 1994 Dodge Grand Caravan ES - still has the original exhaust system (and, 4 speed ECT, I might add) after over 12 years and 160K miles of ownership! Heck, even my classic SAAB 900's exhaust systems last over 5 years, sometimes longer.

Camshafts, don't even go there. Between switching from a "C" grind to a "D" grind, it still wiped the lobes for some reason, and that's with 2K oil changes in those days.

But, the 140 was built like a brick. Sheetmetal was thick on that car.

Still have the car - will have to post a JPG sometime. The rugged, but noisy, B20B was replaced with a Detroit-iron-based Buick V6 some time ago, and it's a much better driver now.

andre1969

about those old Volvo 240's and 740/760's that just gave them a sturdy, brick-like feel. Maybe it was simply the sturdy, brick-like styling putting suggestive thoughts into my mind? :P

qbrozen

If it wasn't in Delaware (gee, thanks for listing it on the NJ craigslist, pal), I might have to take a look at this
cheap (i'm sure for a reason) 380.

fintail

LWB W126, nice colors, looks fairly decent...for almost nothing. Has to be a bargain.

Make H2 driver/posers wet themselves

Cheap alternative to an Excursion

jrosasmc

Per the ongoing discussion about Volvos, I guess it's time to chime in with my $.02 worth and add some comments so that you and Shifty can reflect if you choose to. I myself am the proud owner of an immaculate '96 850.

I firmly agree with Shifty's comments about the auto transmissions on the 850s...they were a relatively new unit when the model was first introduced in 1993. I had a '93 850 that was automatic, and I recall swearing at it more than by it plenty of times, as the tranny was real problematic. It also had lots of other issues like eating battery cables, dash lights going out, brake rotor replacement and other trivial little things. It took Volvo more than three years to correct the problems of the 850s.

The '96 850 that I have now is light-years ahead of the '93 in terms of reliability. However, as you stated earlier Gbrozen, there are certain things that you have to do, such as replacing the timing belt and tensioner every 70k miles, and flush the tranny fluid every 30k or so. My car only has 76k miles on it now; this is a Vermont vehicle that has never seen the salty winters of New England. The previous sole owner, an older gentleman, had the T-belt changed at 50k miles and only used Mobil 1 synthetic oil in it. Yes, I agree that they will last a long time if you keep up a strict maintenance schedule. Do I think that 850s are as sturdy as the old 240s and 740s of yore? Probably not. But the 850, as Shifty said, ushered in the era of modern Volvos and they do offer a sportier driving experience than their predecessors.

xwesx

For the right price, a school bus might make a good work rig. Chop the cabin off behind the....oh, 3rd seat, then build a solid flat bed with a lift on it. But, more or less, old school buses are a waste of time unless you plan to bus people.... (day care centers, etc)

qbrozen

so what exactly happened with your tranny? now i'm curious.

jrosasmc

In my '93 850, the tranny worked fine up until around 85k miles. Once it hit that mileage it would do things that would greatly aggravate me, most notably upshifting very late during below-freezing weather and being slow to engage reverse when first started in the morning (it did the latter for the rest of the time I had it). I believe there was also some problems with the ECU that caused very erratic performance when it hit 105k...it would go into limp-home mode (3rd and 4th gears only) at the worst possible times or sometimes not go into reverse at all.

I have no problems at all with the '96...that car drives like a dream compared to the '93.

benjaminh

Here is the email I got from my questions about how long they've owned the car, where they got their service done, and what mpg they've had. Perhaps nothing to worry about, but he still doesn't answer how long they've owned the car.

"we have had this car for awhile (actually three states!)

I have most of the maintenance reciepts, the ones I dont have are older oil changes, I have kept all the engine and brakes and stuff like that. I keep a Excel program of all the oil changes and what has been done on the vehicle. The older oil change stuff got left in Arizona, but I have it in my spreadsheet. Mileage in town has been around 20-22 and highway 23-28. The service was always done at either the dealer or Larrys Import Repair service ( he is a VW, AUDI, VOLVO repair shop)

Thanks and have a great day if you need anything more just ask or call me at 614-804-5776.

Take care
Bill"

andre1969

to convert an old school bus into a motorhome. Just strip out the seats and you'd have a clean slate to work with, and could come up with your own floorplans.

qbrozen

well, at least it didn't self destruct.

I'm easy to please sometimes. I figure if a car doesn't leave me stranded, that's a mark in the plus column.

qbrozen

Did he send this excel sheet? Not that I would trust it.

lilengineerboy

I am okay with Excel spreadsheets. I have one that has tabs for each of our cars and what was done, what mileage, what cost and who did it (usually me, but sometimes a dealer or independent shop). It helps me realize when maintenance costs start approaching car payment cost
I also have a sheet where I track fuel mileage when I feel like it. I am not so religious about it but when it drops suddenly, I know something is wrong with the car.

qbrozen

yeah, but if i wanted to show a strong maintenance history for a car I'm selling, it would take me all of 5 minutes to make up an excel spreadsheet. For me, actual receipts are all I would trust to be accurate and truthful.

andre1969

I have one where I keep track of all the expenses that go into the car like maintenance, payments, repairs, registration, emissions test fees, etc. For gasoline though, I just keep a little book in each car and record each fill up, but never put it into electronic format.

I'm kinda curious to see if maintenance/repair costs on my Intrepid ever start to approach what a new car payment would be. Heck, since I made the last payment in November 2004, I think I've put about $600 into it, which includes a $128 registration renewal (2 years), $207 worth of work on the brakes, and $121 to fix the oil pan when I stripped it. Oh, and a new battery.

I do need to get the transmission serviced soon, which might run about $70-85. It has the long-life coolant, which I had changed prematurely around 86,000 miles about 3 years ago. I might go overboard and have the mechanic do it again before it gets too cold, as the thing still has its original hoses. I had the spark plugs done around 51,000 miles, and it's been about 71,000 since then. I know they're supposed to go longer these days, but it probably won't hurt to change them soon. I might try that one myself. How hard can it be on a 2.7 (famous last words)

I last put tires on it around 76,000 miles, which was 47,000 miles ago, but they still have plenty of tread on 'em. I guess as long as I can keep the car from rusting, and can avoid chewing up an engine or transmission, or needing major suspension work, I should be good for low-cost motoring for a few more years. One other area that seems to be more expensive these days though, is exhaust systems. I remember replacing the whole dual exhaust in my '68 Dart from the manifolds back for about $330 back in 1993. And I recently got a quote to do a dual exhaust, with catalytic converters and everything, on my '79 New Yorker for around $750. But on some of these newer cars just a catalytic converter can run $1000 or more!

lilengineerboy

Last year the suspension fell apart on the 93 Accord, so I installed new upper ball joint/a-arms ($200), new tie rod ends ($70), new shocks all around ($300), new shock mounts/strut bearings($60), etc. Most of the parts were sourced online from name brand places. I did it myself.

The front brakes ($120 rotors *fancy ones*, $50 pads) were also replaced about 6 months later which required almost the same disassembly, and a wheel bearing ($120)was replaced. Front brakes are a big PITA on this thing if you are changing rotors. I did it myself.

Most of this was definitely maintenance/wear item repair type things on a 13 year old car with over 100k (although I thought it was weird how thoroughly trashed the front suspension was for a car that lead a relatively easy life).
The master cylinder was also recently replaced (got outsourced, I didn't have time). It will need tires before snow falls, could use a new motor mount, and within 18 months at 140-150k, will need the rubber band/water pump replaced again (I think it was last done at 75k or so).

I would say repairs/maintenance is running about $1200/year for the last few years (previously got new axles (did one, outsourced the other), main relay (by me), slave cylinder (outsourced), distributor (outsorced), typical 10 year old Honda every-bulb-in-car-going-out-one-at-a-time and making me nuts thing (me)).

I guess in a way, I already have my project car

Mr_Shiftright

$100 a month is really good for an old car---I mean a DECENT old car, not some beater that people stagger around with and drive 5 miles a day. $100 a month is definitely a sign of a 'good car'.

I don't think most people ever really meticulously add up all the expenses of keeping an old car on the road...they can nickel and dime you, especially if you maintain the car to a high standard...which to me, means "turn the key, drive coast to coast". Anything less, you are driving a cripple and that doesn't count as a "cheap car to own" because you are comparing it to cars which have greater capabilities.

lilengineerboy

Yeah that is a good point. I hate when things don't work so when things break, they are repaired quickly. That car goes back and forth from SE MI to Chicago or Cincinnati on a regular basis. We drove back from Pittsburgh in light rain and got 38 mpg. Most of the time it gets around 30, and insurance and registration are cheap.
Sometimes its required to tow a 5x8 uHaul trailer for Craigslist/ebay furniture finds, which it does but you definitely know its back there.
I would really like to install a CD/MP3 player to replace the old factory cassette deck, but I feel bad doing that before the motor mounts, and I know that t-belt/water pump is going to be $500-600 (I haven't decided if I can do that myself or not yet). If I hadn't done the majority of the work the car needed myself, it wouldn't be economical to keep it.

andre1969

I remember figuring out that my '68 Dart had been running about 11 cents per mile, not including gas and insurance. So for the roughly 85,000 miles I drove it, I figure I put about $9300 into it, including the $1700 I paid for it originally.

I thought it would be cool to see if I could get my Intrepid's cost per mile down to that same 11 cents per mile, but when you figure that it cost me about $22,300 just in the out-the-door price (the car price, tax, tags, extended warranty, etc), I would've had to go about 203,000 miles without putting ANYTHING into it, other than gas and insurance, and that just ain't gonna happen!

As of the last time I changed the oil, in August, I figure I'm at about 22.4 cents per mile, plus gas/insurance. On a cost per month basis over the life of the car I figure it's down to around $328 per month ($27,125, what I figure I've put into it, divided by the ~82.5 months I've had it) As long as nothing major goes wrong, this figure should keep going down with time. For example, I figure at Month 60, when it was paid in full, I was into it about $26450, which amortized to about $440 per month.

Just out of curiosity, is cost per month or cost per mile a better indicator? I like to record them both ways. On a vehicle that doesn't get driven much, if you have a repair it'll really throw off your cost per mile, but not necessarily your cost per month. For instance, adding up the totals for my '85 Silverado, which has been driven about 11,000 miles since I've owned it, I figure I'm running about $96 per month, which includes the $1200 I paid my Mom for it. Cost per mile, though, looks pretty nasty, at 52 cents per mile.

Or in the case of my '76 LeMans, which I've had now for about a year and a half, I figure it's still at about $2.69 per mile! Or ~$240 per month. One thing that might inflate my figures though is that I always include the purchase price in the total, and just divide the total by the number of months I've had it, or the number of miles I've driven it.

Or does it just not make sense to try calculating a cost per mile/month on an old car that's mainly a toy and rarely gets driven? I've only put about 1600 miles on my LeMans since I've had it. And about 500 of that was driving it back from where I bought it in Ohio!

lilengineerboy

A previous vehicle, a '89 Mitsubishi Galant, was purchased in 1991 for $5995 with ~45k. It was sold in 1998 with ~170k for 1800. Major expenses were a clutch (my siblings learned to drive stick on that car, and my parents "remembered" how to drive stick on that car), two t-belt/water pump changes, 2 batteries, 2 axles, and deferred maintenance in that it really needed shocks and a new stereo head unit. Adding in things like tires and such, I would say the car was about $9000-1800=7200 for about 130k miles, counting registration but not insurance or self inflicted issues.
The only times I remember that car failing was the fuel injection system was having trouble with the idle circuit. It was too long ago to remember what the problem was, but I think that was the only time it was on a hook.

Mr_Shiftright

Well cost per mile is really just an increment of cost per month isn't it. If you drive 12,000 miles a year, a mile is a millemonth unit. I used this method to grade beauty---If Helen of Troy was beautiful enough to launch a thousand ships (that's a LOT of ships) then a unit of beauty is a milliHelen.

Cost per month works for me better because I can compare more easily the cost of a new car with payments vs. a used car I'm driving.

And with project cars, I think cost per month is better, as many project cars sit for a long time.

martian

My experience is: most cars hit a point when everything seems to fail at once. Case in point; my wife's Nissan Stanza-when it hit 104K miles, everything started to break-stuff like:
-broken door handle (fixed with junkyard parts)
-frozen fron calipers
- bad CV joints
-blown battery (no. 4)
We had fixed everything , and then one day, the AT failed 9without warning). We decided to scrap the car-it seemed like things would only get worse.

qbrozen

maybe i'll start a spreadsheet for the mazda.

SOO... I got under the truck last night with the intention of hacking the exhaust apart to see what could be saved and what needs to be replaced. Come to find out the pipe from the manifold all the way to the cat is one big welded piece ... hmmmm... the online diagram I found shows it as 2 pieces. Needless to say, the bolts are rusted pretty solid. I soaked them all in penetrant and I'll try again later.

Anyway, I finally decide to call this autopartswarehouse.com where I've seen REAL cheap exhaust parts. Since I was asking questions the lackeys were unable to answer, I kept getting transferred up the line until I got to some sort of top-dog chief of presidential mechanics or some such person. Long story short ... they tell me I can order parts x, y, and z and get the complete exhaust from the downpipe through the tailpipe (that would be the downpipe, catylytic, midpipe, muffler, tailpipe, and all gaskets) for $260. Hmmmm... sounds too good to be true, but I ordered it up and we'll see what comes in the mail.

benjaminh

I like these things, kind of like a mini modern day Volvo wagon--but cheap. I'm not sure that a 1.5 engine is enough for me (although I'm sure I could live with it, since my first car was a 69 VW Bus). If they'd just put the Corolla engine in it would probably be enough.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/06-4DR-WAGON-5-SPEED-CD-W-MP3-CARBON-FIBER-ALLOY-- OK_W0QQitemZ190033620539QQihZ009QQcategoryZ116486QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVi- ewItem#lg

What have they done to the hood and the back?

Andre: Wow, you've had some really low costs per mile on your cars.

I'm glad to hear Shifty say that old cars run about $100 a month. With the $9000 we've spend on repairs and maintenance on our 88 Olds 98, I think we probably could take it across the country (but I'd feel much more confident about our 02 Accord). The AC still works, and the stereo is now a Sony boombox.

fintail

Honest Alfa ad

lilengineerboy

Bahahahahahahahaha I can't even control my laughter

Mr_Shiftright

now now that's not *quite* what I said...or meant to say I mean :P

I thought $100 a month was an exception case for an old car (presuming the old "turn the key go coast to coast level of maintenance).

It really depends on the car of course. A Dodge Dart or old GM car, that's easier...but something furrin' or exotic, when it gets old, starts adding up. I think the cheapest cost per mile for a furrin' car was my Mercedes 300Diesel

Maserati 4porto -- I like these cars and the interiors are wonderful....beyond wonderful...but parts are hard to come by and they really REALLY suck gas. I'd like to have one someday. Realistic price is about $8,500 and I'd like to know what it bids to. His asking price is bat-freakin' crazy. Either he doesn't know the market or he's trolling for the uninformed buyer.

british_rover

Wow look at the gas mileage on the window sticker.

8 and 10 ouch.

Extremly reliable V8 sure...

Original MSRP looks like 66,000 in change or maybe 64,000 in change hard to see.

Mr_Shiftright

That's 8 mpg if you TAKE IT EASY!!!. I've heard 5-6 mpg if you drive it like I certainly plan to :P

Lemmee see...at $3.25 a gallon that means a 100 mile trip will cost me.....oh, forget this car for now, thank you very much.....can it be made to run on french fry oil?

lilengineerboy

These are an improvement on the Biturbos. I recall the earlier cars having electrical and drivability issues. I also remember them self distructing but at the time, the would lay waste to a 318/325e, a 190d/e, and give a run for the money to a 305/auto Camaro. I think the XR4ti would as well though, and had an easier to live with 2.3l turbo.
I didn't realize they were actually worht $8500 though, I am used to seeng 425s in the 3gs and under section of the classified.

andre1969

Andre: Wow, you've had some really low costs per mile on your cars.

One reason my cost per mile might look so low is that I don't factor in gas and insurance. I remember back when my Dart was my daily driver, I figured that gas ended up running more than 10 cents per mile, it was getting expensive. FWIW, that thing got about 13 mpg, so gas had to get up to about $1.30 per gallon for me to start whining. But if I was still feeding that thing at today's higher prices, I know I'd be hurting! About the worst gas got up to around here was maybe $3.15 for 87 octane, which would put me up to 24 cents per mile!

Gas is down to around $2.45 per gallon here now, so I figure I can run my Intrepid (around 20 mpg around town) for around 12 cents per mile, which is more than what I thought was expensive for my Dart, back in the day! That Dart hasn't been my daily transportation for about 9 years though, so I guess you have to factor in inflation!

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe you're thinking of the series I 4porto sedans, from 80-83. Those are worth less than the mid 80s ones.

Maser bi-turbos are fun cars to drive but basically they have an UNFIXABLE engine problem, so you can forget it. No man on earth can keep them intact it seems. All you can do is delay the evitable KABOOM....

xwesx

Hahaha.... as ugly as it is, it would have to be one fun/luxurious ride to warrant even $8,500. There should be a $5K deduction for sheer hideousness. My van looks like a beauty queen next to that thing. :sick:

andre1969

that 1985 Maserati looks like they took an Audi 5000, but then took every single curve and replaced it with straight lines and sharp angles. And then, for good measure, whacked it a few times with a shovel. And then hired Chrysler of Argentina to style the front end, and AMC to do the interior, with higher quality materials.

Actually, I do kinda like the interior of the thing. I like the way it has that wood strip across the dashboard that carries over into the doors. And those seats have a nice, comfy, overstuffed domestic look to them.