It's been a while since I've seen a car at 4X book value....well, let's say 3X. Just an old slug of a car...the German Buick. I'd rather have a 450SLC coupe...lighter, tighter and less common....
heck, if the engine was original, I could at least understand dreaming of getting that much from some kook ... but nonmatching and rotted all around = not much.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I kind of like it. Of course, I'm not a body work expert..
If the engine is reasonably correct, even if not original, and the chassis/suspension was done to a high standard, and assuming the engine/tran are OK to use, and the interior/trim is there, why not? All these cars need new sheetmetal anyway, right? I'm sure you can point/click/ship new quarters/pans in about 15 minutes.
Or, even better is if you have a sound body with no drivetrain (maybe a Lemans 6 cyl.) to marry up to the chassis?
Hey, we are talking project cars here, not pebble beach garage queens
besides, I am partial to that model GTO, and anything with a 4 speed must be saved at any cost. let the automatics rot in a field!
why not? Just go buy a nice one for $25,000 and save yourself years of misery and ending up with a "bitsa" car (bitsa this and bitsa that). Even near show quality, totally correct #s matching for a '70 with a plain old 400 is maybe $35,000 and at least a $5K-$7K deduct for wrong motor.
There is no upside to this wreck because it's not all that special a car---at least not special enough to undergo the massive amounts of work necessary to bring this one back.
I vote no, absolutely not. If it were a '66 convertible 4 speed, then yes, because you have double or more potential value.
Also keep i mind that many of us get our perception of value from watching the B-J auction show, so I have no idea what a real nice basic GTo will go for.
Still, although that one did have some sheet metal issues, it did look reasonably straight, and you are cetainly ahead of the game over buying one like that on a rusty dirty chassis.
Also, i don't think he specified what motor it had, just that it was not original. Aren't you the one that makes fun of people for getting hung up on matching numbers on a mainstream domestic car? What if it has a period correct 400 motor in it?
But, I'm sure that buying a nice complete car is the best financial move, but sometimes the project is the important part. besides, using that logic, no one would ever restore a car, drying up the supply!
Aren't you the one that makes fun of people for getting hung up on matching numbers on a mainstream domestic car? What if it has a period correct 400 motor in it?
Yeah, but on a relatively high dollar mainstream domestic car, matching numbers is going to be important. I think the main thing that Shifty makes fun of is not that people get hung up on that, but on certain cars the MARKET gets hung up on it!
I doubt if anyone would really care if my '67 Catalina convertible or '76 LeMans has a numbers matching engine, but on a GTO, Chevelle SS396, Corvette, etc they're going to get fussy.
Well this car needs everything. The amount of work I see is enormous, hundreds and hundreds of hours. The car is simply not worth the human effort.
As for matching #s, yeah personally I think it's silly but the market doesn't think so....so I'm trying to defeat my prejudices by making buyers aware that you are going to get penalized financially for a non matching #s car (in this case).
Basically all I'm saying is that a car like that '70 GTO, in the condition presented, is actually only worth the $$ you can get for the chassis + scrap metal...so maybe $2,000?
Further, it seems a senseless project for restoration given the current values. I doubt I would take it on if it were worth $75,000 retail all fixed up. Maybe if it were a '58 Fuel Injected corvette, you could take on a car this bad.
This might be do-able...it sounds like its about $500 worth of parts away from being anything legitimate, but when done, these things are pretty fun. I'm thinking $350 for an SE-R trans to get rid of the "pop out" (been down this road before, they all do that), do a clutch while ur in there, and then some money for glass. It gets some cool points for having a sunroof and it also gets some cool points for being the same stuff we were racing at Buttonwillow in CA. I always thought an SE-R would make a great One Lap car.
of that GTO be worth anything, just by itself? That's one thing I've always wondered about, with car frames. Hate to throw a good one away, but how much of a market is there for one?
I always wondered if the '68-72 and the '73-77 A-bodies used the same frame underneath. They did use the same length wheelbase, 112" for 2-doors and 116" for 4-doors (and the Monte and Grand Prix).
I guess though, if anything serious enough happened to my '76 LeMans that it needed a new frame, chances are the rest of the car would be so smashed up it wouldn't be worth it! If I really got sentimental for the car I'd just go pay the $3000 or so for another one!
Just out of curiosity, would a numbers-matching engine be critical in something like my '57 DeSoto?
nasty rust on the Ferrari. I don't see how that could be anything but a parts car, if there are any worthwhile parts that is! I imagine that car is low on the list of models that will put up with sitting outside (in NE no less) for 7 years.
As to GTOs, I concede. Actually, I didn't think that '70 needed as much work as SHifty did, but I didn't really look at the pics too closely. I would still take a flyer though if the body was sound (it's a 4 speed thing).
the '67 Vert sounds like a bad idea. Having to replace the frame and all the sheet metal? Uh, no.
I just got the latest Automobile issue in the mail, and one of the auction cars (fro RM in Mich.) was a '66 GTO, 4 speed, seems nicely restored, with PS. That only sold for 33K, making a basket case project look even less desireable.
I need to find a 1970 Dart sport 340 4 speed with a rust free body (although it might be easier to find Hoffa...).
GTO So its a rust bucket GTO without all the GTO parts and a non-matching motor that is toast? Is there any redeeming qualties of this thing at all? Ferrari There is no way you will ever not be upside down with that car, and whats worse, you will get spanked by a kid with a Honda Accord V6 at a light.
I'm thinking $350 for an SE-R trans to get rid of the "pop out" (been down this road before, they all do that)
Almost all of them. Mine somehow still has a solid 5th gear closing in on 230k, but that is very much unusual. If I were going to swap the tranny and prep the car for autox, I'd think about hunting down a B15 box for the shorter gearing.
And yes, the stock VLSD was one of the things that made the first-gen SE-R so much fun.
That car is from Woburn MA which is where the story behind the movie a Civil Action is based. I wonder if someone ogt their settlement money and ran out and bought that and ended up completely poorlt equipped to take care of it.
A decent SE-R for $550? Do it. Not really a project car per-se, but it would be a great little track car, or just a fun beater. Most tracks you wouldn't need 5th on an SE-R anyway.
You don't even need to do that (the rev limiter is computer-controlled). A stock B13 SE-R tops out around 120 mph in 4th (7500 rpm redline and 4.07:1 reduction).
That sounds plausible. The way it is utterly falling apart makes you think it was under-cared from day 1. I always liked the appearance of the 308 best amongst the Ferraris. Somehow I think whomever bid $10,000 on it is being over-generous and the current owner should take it and run... laughing. :P
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
That Ferrari 308 is a total pile of junk and on top of that a non very desirable model (the '81s are severe oil burners, probably from defective fuel injection washing the cylinders with gasoline). I don't think any knowledgable Ferrari person would even TAKE it much less pay for it. A rube who knew nothing might and then be like....very sorry.....I can't believe the mileage...it looks like it was left outdoors and abandoned on a beach or something. You'd think someone would have checked on 308 book values before posting such a silly price for this...this...thing.
'67 GTO -- looks like previous owner made the right decision to bail out on this car. Probably the only way it could be restored logically is for someone to get it cheap and do all the labor hisself. Paying someone to do it, you'd be bottoms up for life on this baby. Seller estimates $70K to restore (sounds right) and really for that money you could buy the best '67 in the world and have money left over for a couple of African safaris.
Oh, Lord, please tell me that was a shill bid...people can't be THAT stupid, not even on eBay....un..freakin...believable......
I mean, there is no mystery here...you can buy nice 308s for $28,000 bucks...AND better years/models. An engine rebuild alone is $30,000 dollars! One (1) fan belt is $100. Front bumper? $4,000.
The whole auction is a travesty...very entertaining freak show here....
If I had some land where I could park it, I'd take the Ferrari for free, just to watch it be reclaimed by the earth. That has to be the worst Ferrari on the market, I've never seen one rustier.
Barring the lack of an operational drivetrain, that C20 looks great due to its originality. That must be the first one I have seen, other than my own, that still has original hubcaps on it! $1500 seems a *bit* much for it as it sits.
The reason there are so many of them out there is because they were such an excellent, practical vehicle with a timeless design.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Shame about the AC....do ANY Benz AC systems from the 1980s work anymore? Not a bad buy at all for $3,500...miles are scary but if it's been serviced, all you'd need is a close examination to check for any big problems. I'd check for leaking steering rack and howling differential---the usual suspects....
My W126 had cold air, but the original/previous owner did have it serviced at about 120K. The guy I sold it to did notice that it worked, too, it was a selling point.
They'd fight for that diesel here...I've seen a couple of "Benz Diesel Wanted" ads on local CL in the past week.
People are nuts paying high book for a car with over 200,000 miles on it....but then, they pay $5,000 for barbie dolls, so I realize my rants are pointless
Sometimes I can rationalize purchase of a high mileage car by using my favorite "bank account analogy".
It goes like this:
A car is like a bank account. Some people merely make withdrawals (driving the car) and very few, if any, deposits (maintenance)...some only put money back in when a check bounces (car breaks down).
So when you look at a high mileage car, you have to decide if the account is full, at the absolute minimum required, or is bankrupt.
If a 200K car is bankrupt because there have been few or no deposits, (you of course, ask for the deposit slips), then this requires YOU aka "the stuckee" to cover all the bounced checks.
41k, bidding at $1100 Ad says that owning this car "will make you live longer" because it's a luxury car with sex appeal (maybe...).
I've lost the link. Oh well.
Looking at a car as a bank account is a good way to look at it. Especially if you realize that withdrawals can only be made by driving the car. That's the situation I'm in with my 1988 Olds 98. Having deposited so much over so many years I want to get some of it out by driving the darn thing. That all-new brake system from 2003, given how few miles we drive, will probably last quite a bit longer than we'll own the car--or perhaps even longer than the car itself will survive. But I wouldn't feel comfortable selling a car with bad brakes though, even if I disclosed it.
A car being a MB diesel stops all rational thought around here. It's hard to look at such deals logically. In fact, I bet I could put 5K on that old thing if I gave it a good bath, and I'd get plenty of interest.
The analogy seems apt...a car like that is certainly one I would not want to own without a stack of those deposit slips.
Hmmm...I'm not so sure that all we are really seeing is delusional asking prices. I haven't noticed, even in loony San Francisco, anything other than diesel bottom feeders on craigslist. They don't seem to want to pay premium prices for old junk. Of course on occasion we do see these "grandpa diesels" that are pristine and have 78,000 original miles--now those can command a good price but how many are there of those around? My friend has a very decent 300TD wagon and he hasn't had people ripping the hinges off his door at $4,000 asking.
Still if it were an old Toyota with 238,000 miles on it, he wouldn't dare ask $4000.
I think a lot of the cars (in relation to old MBs) that make it to CL are bottom feeders...the enthusiasts will cull out the gems before they make it down so far. But the prices stay high, and someone must be getting something for these cars for prices to stay this way. Every seller can't be nuts, the market has to be nuts too.
The priciest sale I personally know of was $7500 for an 85 300TD wagon, but it was really in beautiful condition in black on palomino, under 100K I think, and was 100% mechanically.
Nah, I don't think the market is that high...the asking prices stay high because the sellers don't sell the cars and so keep trying. CL is free and you see lots of repeats. Sellers can troll for suckers on CL at no cost and now and then they'll catch one (snag fishing we used to call it). I could buy all the clean old 300Ds I want for $3,500 but quite frankly I'd rather pay more for the 1 in 10,000 pristine car, and that one would have to be a turbo wagon.
Well any market covers a large database. What two people in San Francisco or Seattle do with their money doesn't determine a market. I think relative to other worn out common cars from the 80s, the Mercedes diesels ARE a good market...but relative to real collectibles, it's pretty small potatoes. I think once people drive these cars on modern freeways, or end up covered in french fry grease and toxic lye after making bio-diesel for two weeks, or end up paying premium fuel prices for diesel...well, they sober up. I did.
I don't think they will ever be real collectibles. I am surprised there's not a big export trade sending our 123s to the middle east for taxi duty. I guess Europe hasn't dried up yet.
They already have modern Mercedes diesel taxis. They don't need those old things--they'd never hold up to the punishment over there. It's brutal. Although I'd take one over a Toyota in case of a roadside bomb :P
Comments
1984 380SL
heck, if the engine was original, I could at least understand dreaming of getting that much from some kook ... but nonmatching and rotted all around = not much.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If the engine is reasonably correct, even if not original, and the chassis/suspension was done to a high standard, and assuming the engine/tran are OK to use, and the interior/trim is there, why not? All these cars need new sheetmetal anyway, right? I'm sure you can point/click/ship new quarters/pans in about 15 minutes.
Or, even better is if you have a sound body with no drivetrain (maybe a Lemans 6 cyl.) to marry up to the chassis?
Hey, we are talking project cars here, not pebble beach garage queens
besides, I am partial to that model GTO, and anything with a 4 speed must be saved at any cost. let the automatics rot in a field!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
james
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
There is no upside to this wreck because it's not all that special a car---at least not special enough to undergo the massive amounts of work necessary to bring this one back.
I vote no, absolutely not. If it were a '66 convertible 4 speed, then yes, because you have double or more potential value.
Sell the chassis, bail out while you're ahead.
Also keep i mind that many of us get our perception of value from watching the B-J auction show, so I have no idea what a real nice basic GTo will go for.
Still, although that one did have some sheet metal issues, it did look reasonably straight, and you are cetainly ahead of the game over buying one like that on a rusty dirty chassis.
Also, i don't think he specified what motor it had, just that it was not original. Aren't you the one that makes fun of people for getting hung up on matching numbers on a mainstream domestic car? What if it has a period correct 400 motor in it?
But, I'm sure that buying a nice complete car is the best financial move, but sometimes the project is the important part. besides, using that logic, no one would ever restore a car, drying up the supply!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Yeah, but on a relatively high dollar mainstream domestic car, matching numbers is going to be important. I think the main thing that Shifty makes fun of is not that people get hung up on that, but on certain cars the MARKET gets hung up on it!
I doubt if anyone would really care if my '67 Catalina convertible or '76 LeMans has a numbers matching engine, but on a GTO, Chevelle SS396, Corvette, etc they're going to get fussy.
As for matching #s, yeah personally I think it's silly but the market doesn't think so....so I'm trying to defeat my prejudices by making buyers aware that you are going to get penalized financially for a non matching #s car (in this case).
Basically all I'm saying is that a car like that '70 GTO, in the condition presented, is actually only worth the $$ you can get for the chassis + scrap metal...so maybe $2,000?
Further, it seems a senseless project for restoration given the current values. I doubt I would take it on if it were worth $75,000 retail all fixed up. Maybe if it were a '58 Fuel Injected corvette, you could take on a car this bad.
This might be do-able...it sounds like its about $500 worth of parts away from being anything legitimate, but when done, these things are pretty fun.
I'm thinking $350 for an SE-R trans to get rid of the "pop out" (been down this road before, they all do that), do a clutch while ur in there, and then some money for glass.
It gets some cool points for having a sunroof and it also gets some cool points for being the same stuff we were racing at Buttonwillow in CA.
I always thought an SE-R would make a great One Lap car.
I bet if you walked in with 400 cash and a trailer you could take that away no problem.
I always wondered if the '68-72 and the '73-77 A-bodies used the same frame underneath. They did use the same length wheelbase, 112" for 2-doors and 116" for 4-doors (and the Monte and Grand Prix).
I guess though, if anything serious enough happened to my '76 LeMans that it needed a new frame, chances are the rest of the car would be so smashed up it wouldn't be worth it! If I really got sentimental for the car I'd just go pay the $3000 or so for another one!
Just out of curiosity, would a numbers-matching engine be critical in something like my '57 DeSoto?
Estimated to take 70,000 dollars to restore
Center of the galaxy sized blackhole.
As to GTOs, I concede. Actually, I didn't think that '70 needed as much work as SHifty did, but I didn't really look at the pics too closely. I would still take a flyer though if the body was sound (it's a 4 speed thing).
the '67 Vert sounds like a bad idea. Having to replace the frame and all the sheet metal? Uh, no.
I just got the latest Automobile issue in the mail, and one of the auction cars (fro RM in Mich.) was a '66 GTO, 4 speed, seems nicely restored, with PS. That only sold for 33K, making a basket case project look even less desireable.
I need to find a 1970 Dart sport 340 4 speed with a rust free body (although it might be easier to find Hoffa...).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
So its a rust bucket GTO without all the GTO parts and a non-matching motor that is toast? Is there any redeeming qualties of this thing at all?
Ferrari
There is no way you will ever not be upside down with that car, and whats worse, you will get spanked by a kid with a Honda Accord V6 at a light.
Almost all of them. Mine somehow still has a solid 5th gear closing in on 230k, but that is very much unusual. If I were going to swap the tranny and prep the car for autox, I'd think about hunting down a B15 box for the shorter gearing.
And yes, the stock VLSD was one of the things that made the first-gen SE-R so much fun.
-Jason
'67 GTO -- looks like previous owner made the right decision to bail out on this car. Probably the only way it could be restored logically is for someone to get it cheap and do all the labor hisself. Paying someone to do it, you'd be bottoms up for life on this baby. Seller estimates $70K to restore (sounds right) and really for that money you could buy the best '67 in the world and have money left over for a couple of African safaris.
I mean, there is no mystery here...you can buy nice 308s for $28,000 bucks...AND better years/models. An engine rebuild alone is $30,000 dollars! One (1) fan belt is $100. Front bumper? $4,000.
The whole auction is a travesty...very entertaining freak show here....
but this one apparently has a stick
diesel = +$2000
a Mopar for Andre
or a swamp buggy
I think every third vehicle Chevy built in 1972 was a C/10
or a C/20
the badge is a bit much
rare, but who cares?
buy someone else's project
#42, ready for the junkyard
The reason there are so many of them out there is because they were such an excellent, practical vehicle with a timeless design.
They'd fight for that diesel here...I've seen a couple of "Benz Diesel Wanted" ads on local CL in the past week.
Whoever the heck used the BIN button has GOT to be insane, a deadbeat, or the aforementioned shill.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Sometimes I can rationalize purchase of a high mileage car by using my favorite "bank account analogy".
It goes like this:
A car is like a bank account. Some people merely make withdrawals (driving the car) and very few, if any, deposits (maintenance)...some only put money back in when a check bounces (car breaks down).
So when you look at a high mileage car, you have to decide if the account is full, at the absolute minimum required, or is bankrupt.
If a 200K car is bankrupt because there have been few or no deposits, (you of course, ask for the deposit slips), then this requires YOU aka "the stuckee" to cover all the bounced checks.
So how do you all like this analogy?
Ad says that owning this car "will make you live longer" because it's a luxury car with sex appeal (maybe...).
I've lost the link. Oh well.
Looking at a car as a bank account is a good way to look at it. Especially if you realize that withdrawals can only be made by driving the car. That's the situation I'm in with my 1988 Olds 98. Having deposited so much over so many years I want to get some of it out by driving the darn thing. That all-new brake system from 2003, given how few miles we drive, will probably last quite a bit longer than we'll own the car--or perhaps even longer than the car itself will survive. But I wouldn't feel comfortable selling a car with bad brakes though, even if I disclosed it.
The analogy seems apt...a car like that is certainly one I would not want to own without a stack of those deposit slips.
Still if it were an old Toyota with 238,000 miles on it, he wouldn't dare ask $4000.
The priciest sale I personally know of was $7500 for an 85 300TD wagon, but it was really in beautiful condition in black on palomino, under 100K I think, and was 100% mechanically.
I'm sure it drives like a (bad) dream, but it could somehow be useful, for the money
how about this 1961 T-bird:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Best-Concourse-Restored-T-Bird-as-NOS-1961-1963-4- 0pics_W0QQitemZ150034430590QQihZ005QQcategoryZ6240QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
It's not really a project car, I realize, because someone else has done all the work.
If I wanted a 123 I too would hold out for the best imaginable