Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969

I have to admit that I do sort of like the things. And in the past, I've toyed with the idea of trying to buy my buddy's. He's been talking about wanting to sell it for a couple yeras now.. Although with the way things turned out, I guess it's for the best that I didn't! I drove it once, and I never thought I'd say this about a car...but it was just too damned big! :P

andre1969

Hmm, I gotta admit I like that white one with the jade top and interior for $3900.

IMO, I always thought the Mark V was a car where the color could make it or break it. I love the light blues and greens they offered. And white with a decent colored roof/interior always works. Seems like black or dark blue is also nice. But then there were those ghastly golds, earth-tones, etc. And the red/burgundy doesn't do it for me, either.

In contrast, I'm not so picky about the color of a '76-77 LeMans or '79-81 Mopar R-body. But then, people usually don't try to ask sky-high prices for either of those, unless it's a '77 Pontiac Can Am.

gsemike

When I was a little kid, I thought that they were the classiest American made cars on the road. I wanted my Dad to have one so bad but he always went for utilitarian cars. Just today, the car is just kind of an oddity that isn't really superior at anything.

hpmctorque

What caused the engine to go? One hundred twenty thousand isn't all that many miles for a major failure on a big block, lightly stressed V8, if it has been decently maintained and not abused.

andre1969

I'm not sure what, exactly, made the engine go. It was rebuilt shortly before my friend bought it, and was hopped up a bit in the process. Maybe the extra power was too much stress for it?

I'm also not absolutely positive on the mileage. Plus, he doesn't drive it much, but when he does he's kind of rough on it. So maybe those long periods of sitting, and then getting "rode hard and put away wet" took their toll?

andre1969

I just got an email back from my friend. Turns out the car only has about 117,000 miles on it, and the engine was rebuilt around 80,000. I'm not sure how many miles he's put on it, but he bought it out in New Mexico and drove it home. So it WAS reliable, once upon a time. And here's the circumstances leading up to it demise, in his own words...

"When I started it at the Weis (a local supermarket chain, for you non-locals) with a jump, it stalled. After much cranking I got it started gain, and revved it up to keep it from stalling. It is possible I could have over-revved it, btu I would think that would mess up the valve-train. The mechanic did a compression test whcih was fine. So he thinks it is in the lower engine. Not worth tearing it apart unless I commit to rebuilding THAT engine, as opposed to putting in a used or rebuilt one."

fintail

Not many of these were bothered to be saved

Wow, a few of these haven't been riced out yet...I'll admit I've always had a like for these, when stock

Kind of a cool little thing, too bad it is kinda far gone and overpriced

gsemike

That Supra is really impressively clean but I hd no idea that they could go for that much. What's a more typical driver worth? How good a performer was it and how much does that automatic hurt it?

On the Corvair, where the heck is the engine?

I've been super busy at work so let me leave you with

Mike's crackhead of the day

texases

The Corvair wagon had a high load floor. It is rare - only found one for sale on Ebay, no 'completed items' out of 60+ Corvairs. That said, good looking Corvairs seemed to trade at around $3000, so that price does seem high.

"The car does not run but can get started with very little effort" I am always amazed that people will ask running car money for door stops. If it was so easy, then FIX IT. Otherwise, cut the price in half.

qbrozen

That Supra is really impressively clean but I hd no idea that they could go for that much. What's a more typical driver worth? How good a performer was it and how much does that automatic hurt it?

Well, I still don't know if it would go for what they are asking.

IIRC, a stock twin turbo 6-speed ran 0-60 in the mid-5-sec range, similar to the RX7 twin turbo. I had NO idea you could get an auto in that car, though.

explorerx4

see any buyum's?

fintail

Quite a few I wouldn't mind having...probably not many I could actually buy

bumpy

The Supra ad got tagged, but I assume it's a MkIV. They were available with automatics, and there was a year or two where even the TTs were automatic-only because of emissions.

qbrozen

yup. a '94 for $34k!

texases

Aren't those Supra TTs kind of viewed like the Nissan Skyline - the ultimate Toyota performance car? That'll drive up the price.

fintail

The Supra seller is a dealer who has some kind of fetish for those cars, as he has quite a few of them

I think they are cool cars, esp for a 90s Toyota...but 30K would also have me looking at that crazy widebody 6 liter AMG SEC from ebay a while back.

gsemike

Don't the 93 and 94 look like the exact same pictures?

fintail

They are very similar...I see one has chrome wheels and tinted windows though.

Those things have held their value pretty well...I just checked ebay and autotrader.com - not much cheaper there.

stickguy

I still like the mid 80's (83-84ish) Celica GTS and Supra better. I was in college when they were out, and man I wanted one. Should have sprung for the extra $$ when I got out and started working, instead of getting a Colt.

If I could find a 4 cyl GTS in decnet shape (rust being the big wildcard) I wouldn't mind having it for a sentimental toy.

andre1969

I think my favorite is that style that ran from 1987-1992 or whatever. The one that still had the hidden headlights, but was a bit more rounded and less wedge-shaped than the earlier 80's model.

lemmer

I have looked a little to buy one of those. They seem to be around 75% automatics and 100% either trashed or "fixed up" by kids or both.

fintail

I like the wedge Supra too...the perfect example of 80s styling.

The last Supra is one of the very few cars I think looks even close to correct with the rear wing. I remember when those were new, they were a relatively big deal.

When I was in high school I knew a kid who's father had a 86-92 style Supra that he babied - it had the targa roof and it was that burgundy color that 80% of them seem to have been made in. The kid was screwing around in it on a winding residential road one day, lost control, and completely destroyed the car.

bumpy

That's about right for an automatic with I assume something closer to 100,000 than 50,000 miles. A low-mileage, solid-roof manual TT could touch $50k if it's showroom-fresh (and that's about what they cost new).

lemmer

Good grief, I am not convinced it is a better performance car than a stock C5 Vette that can be had showroom fresh for half of that.

bumpy

The 3G Supras do tend to be pretty ragged out by now. The optional air suspension was buggy, and they tended to eat head gaskets because the factory torque specs were too low. To be honest, an SC300 will do everything a 3G Supra will do, and they'll be better cars in nicer shape to boot. Good luck finding one of the half-dozen built with a stick, though.

british_rover

Our former receptionist who now works in another part of the company as a 1996 or so Supra twin turbo that is heavily modified. It has carbon fiber everything, custom interior, massive custom wheels and brakes, adjustable coilovers and a dyno proven 600 plus rwhp...

All on a motor with stock internals. Oh and it is her daily driver when the roads are dry.

bumpy

An LS1-powered C5? I'd say they're roughly equal stock for stock, but the Supra TT can be tuned to psychotic power levels on the factory internals, and that's a big part of what you're paying for.

qbrozen

This one had very low miles.

I can't imagine $50k. Even at $34k, I think you are asking too much for a 14-year-old car when, for not much more, you could get a new 335i and (stock for stock) kick the Supra's tail.

At $50k? Shoot. Get a Porsche Cayman. Or a slightly used 911 Turbo. Or any number of other better vehicles.

I understand the tunability factor, but that's pretty much negated when you spend that much on the stock version. Add that price to the cost of all the upgrades and you could probably get a new GTR.

explorerx4

at this point, for the asking prices of the supra, you get get something else and put a LOT of money into upgrades.

andre1969

Last nite, that guy who put a deposit down on my decrepit, 338000 mile 1968 Dart, came by to mess with it. Within the space of maybe 15 minutes, he actually got the sucker running! Well...until the gas in the carb burned off, and then it sputtered out.

So, probably the fuel pump, as I had originally figured, over 6 years ago when it quit running and I didn't have the time or money to mess with it. Guess it could also just be a broken hose or line somewhere, too. Looking back, I wish I had just put forth the effort to mess around with it and get it running again.

But, oh well...stuff happens I guess. I was excited to actually see the thing fire up, and have to admit I felt a twinge of nostalgia hearing that V-8 grumble for the few seconds that it did. But at the same time, I'm happy to see the car go, to a guy that really seems interested in fixing it up...and one who knows Mopars, so he knows what he's getting into with this thing!

Oh, on another note, I took a chance and drove my $500 New Yorker to work this morning. It has been running fairly reliably since I had the carb rebuilt. It's still a bit cranky on the first start of the day, but more in that probably-did-it-when-new, 70's car sort of way, than something actually wrong with it. I've driven it to work a few times since having the carb fixed, but this will be the first day I did it in hot weather, which is when it acted up the most in the past. And it's supposed to get up to around 90 today.

So, around 5 this afternoon, I'm either going to be ecstatic because it fired up, or I'll be mouthing a few choice words if it leaves me stranded again! :surprise: I just made sure today, that someone's going to be home to come get me if it won't start! :shades:

**edit: back to my Dart for a second. How long, as a rule of thumb, can an engine sit before it'll just seize up and refuse to start? This Dart hasn't actually moved under its own power since maybe December 2001. Probably hasn't fired up since maybe 2002 or 2003, when I'd pour a little gas in the carb and it ran till it burned off. And it hasn't been cranked since maybe August 2005, when someone else was interested in it and we tried to get it started, but it wouldn't fire up. Now, it is still full of oil, albeit ancient oil at this point. So that's probably helping it to a degree, compared to an engine where all the oil leaked out.

lemmer

I missed the story. The Dart is sold? How much?

lemmer

In stock form, the 300ZX is 95% as fast as a Supra for half the price. I think the 300 looks better anyway.

andre1969

About a month ago, a guy was hauling a load of mulch home from the place up the street, happened to see me out in the yard, and slowed down and asked about the Dart.

I told him that I was interested in getting rid of it and he was welcome to look at it, but I forewarned him that while it may not look too hideous 100 feet off the road, it's going to look scarier, the closer you get to it!

Well, he checked it out, and shockingly, wasn't scared away! We agreed on $400. I probably could have held out for more if I really wanted to, but honestly, how much would a 338,000 mile, rusty '68 Dart that hasn't run in 6 1/2 years be worth, anyway? My plan was to list it on Craigslist over the summer, maybe ask $999, hope for around $500, and if it wasn't gone by the fall, just call the junkyard to come get it.

This guy has always been a Mopar lover, and back in the day had a Demon with a 340. At one point, back when they were just worthless used cars, he also had a Challenger convertible, I had figured that, at this point, my Dart was only good for parts, but he actually wants to fix it up, which I think is cool. Especially since he's local, I'll hopefully see it out on the road again someday.

Just as a refresher, here are some pics of it, taken a few years ago. It didn't look so good back then, and has only gone downhill since then. :sick:

guss

is it sold ? As in the guy gave you the $400 , picked it up , you transferred title to him, and now all you have is an oil stain on the driveway for memories.

From your story it sound like the guy is still tinkering with it and trying to decide if he wants to take it home with him.

Mr_Shiftright

RE: Engines sitting for a long time:

I have actually started engines that had not been running for 25 years or so. I've done this any number of times. My experiences were:

1. It takes a long time to wake up an engine and you must be very careful

2. Sometimes you get a nasty surprise

3. Sometimes they run better than you'd think

4. Just run them long enough to warm them up a bit, a couple of minutes. Later on you can decide what you want to do to it.

I'm thinking here...the longest sleeping engine that I successfully "woke up"...that would be a 1937 Hudson, parked in 1952 (or so I was told, during the "Korean War") and I restarted it in.....um.....that would be 1988. It looked pretty dormant. Cobwebs everywhere, rotted hoses and belts, no brakes, no coolant, thick muddy oil, spiders in the carburetor.

It ran (took most of the day), kinda rough and I did here a sharp, light, but rather random metallic sound in the block somewhere. No idea what, I sold the car soon after, as I just wanted to flip it. (You get much more for a barn find when it can be started, even if it runs BAD).

Had it been a rare or valuable car, or one that with a complex engine, like a Ferrari or Jaguar or an old Hemi, I would not have started it without serious disassembly first. But old 30s American iron is so simple to fix there's not too much risk involved if you are sensible about it.

fintail

Seems way too nice to part out

Maybe a good driver (if one can afford the gas)

Not something you see every day

Mr_Shiftright

that 63 Bonneville would kill you in gas if you drove it very much. They suck fuel like you wouldn't believe. Figure 12 mpg on a good day, so 100 miles is $36. I'd guess it would be better for a quick drive on a Sunday to the Show and Shine.

andre1969

Kind of a nice batch there, overall. And yeah, that '66 Dodge wagon does seem like it was too nice to part out. I wonder what the story was with that?

Shifty, with regards to fuel economy, would the later model Pontiacs with the THM400 be any more efficient than that '63 Bonneville? The '63 Bonneville would have still had the big, old 4-speed Hydramatic that didn't use a torque converter.

Reason I'm asking is that, for as much power as it has, I never had any complaints about the fuel economy in my '67 Catalina, with its 400-4bbl. Okay, I'll admit I've been able to get it into single digits, but I've also been able to do that with much less powerful, smaller-engined vehicles. If I drove it more often, I'd probably get around 10-11 around town, maybe 17-18 on the highway.

Now, it's not a really over-powered 400. I think that year they had 290 hp with the 2-bbl, and 325-330 with the 4-bbl. It's not a Tri-Power or anything.

Fuel economy-wise, how would a 389/400 compare to something like a Mopar 383 or Ford 390?

texases

It does make you wonder about parting out that wagon. Course, now it's too late - don't think there's much demand for it as-is, the cost to get it running would be significant. Just wonder why he didn't sell it when it was all together and he had just sunk some significant money into the interior, tank, etc.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't have any experience with the late 60s Bonnevilles, although I think 18 mpg is very optimistic for any 60s American V8 car. Perhaps with careful extreme hypermiling you could meet or exceed that goal, but in normal driving it seems to me that most 60s American V8s like to sit right in the 14 mpg groove on combined city/hwy. Getting all that weight moving without efficient fuel injection costs you in gas.

steine13

My two cents, and please tell me if I'm off base...

- I like to make sure an engine that's been sitting for > 4 weeks or so doesn't just roar to life.. If carbureted, just don't touch the gas pedal and crank for a minute. That gets the oil flowing before there's a lot of speed on the pistons and other parts. If fuel injected, do something about it.... or if i'ts been sitting for a long time, the gas line is probably empty anyway.

- I think "old oil" is just fine so long as it hasn't solidified or it isn't waay cold out. But who in their right mind starts a "project" in the dead of winter. Wait, who in their right mind does it, ever?

BTW, this is not repeat not a great time to be selling old American Iron. It took me a good three weeks to dispose of this beauty:
https://www.msu.edu/~steine13/g20.html

Times are a-changing...

-Mathias

andre1969

My '79 NYer behaved perfectly today. Got me home from work, and, more importantly, got me to the liquor store and back. So, not time to fold this one just yet, I guess.

fintail

That old van survived pretty well. I remember in the small town I lived in as a kid, conversion vans like that were a huge status symbol back in the 80s, all of the successful farming families had one. I remember my aunt had a Ford Econoline by "Trail Wagons" which seemed really fancy and cool to an 8 year old. And a friend of the family had a Ford "Country Cruiser" which was even fancier.

gsemike

My friend has one and it's called The Gladiator. I don't really get that.

Mr_Shiftright

Old cars are like the Mafia. They let you relax and think you're safe before they make a hit.

Seriously though, I hope you nailed it. I love automotive detective work like this. I'll spend days tracking down a problem and I am especially enthusiastic when spending other people's money doing it.

steine13

How about the German Mafia?

I'll admit I dunno what this thing should bring, but surely not $12:
http://lansing.craigslist.org/car/719250992.html
Please kill me now.

-Mathias

andre1969

Well, about 8 years ago, I had a friend that was fool enough to spend about $15,600 on a 1974 or so 450SL. The odometer read around 182K, and I was hoping that was metric at least but nope, that was 182K MILES! It was in pretty good shape, although I think there was a bit of rust forming in the doorjamb/sill plate area.

Anyway, I have no idea on pricing, but that one looks like a steal in comparison! Still probably a bit overpriced, though.

fintail

I'd say 7-8K is more reasonable. 107s are still slowly depreciating 30/35 years later in some cases.

fintail

I think this is a Canadian market rig

If you like to do lots of maintenance

Uncommon weirdness

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, depending on condition, maintenance records and how it looks underneath, around $8,500 to $10,000 should be all the money in the world for it.

At $15K for a so-so one, andre's friend will be buried for life, and the life after that. These cars will probably never become a first-tier collectible, as they don't have much character like the older SLs do. They were also churned out in large numbers and styles changed very little in the 16 or so years they made them. On top of all that, aside from the 560SL, they aren't much in the way of performance either, and they eat a lot of gas....a LOT.

Given all that, one would be wise to shop for the best, pay the least, and don't sink too much money into a V-8 SL. After all, engine overhauls are now in the $15,000 range.