Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

qbrozen

The previous gen 6-speed Accord could do it in 5.9.

Comparing a 4-speed GM slushbox to a paddle-shift ferrari is stretching it ever so slightly, don't ya think?

A full auto trans is less fun, no matter how good it is. I don't need a 3rd pedal, but I need full manual control.

qbrozen

found it through autotrader

Mr_Shiftright

Well I only brought up the Ferrari to point out that people, as they age, get tired of lifting that left leg 100s of times a day in traffic, especially on a big, wide, heavy car.

It's not easy to inch around in a Ferrari working the clutch pedal to creep around other cars.

tjc78

Anyway, SO WHAT? A Camry is even faster than a BMW 330ci. It's one thing begin spanked in your $6500 Vette, but far far worse to be spanked in your $50K Bimmer.

Very true, I think that would be a tad embarrasing

Mr_Shiftright

That's what I liked about driving my Mercedes 300D---you automatically defaulted to everyone except maybe....maybe....the recycling truck.

jlflemmons

Carfax is not worth the cost of the paper. The caveat they use is "No REPORTED issues"

qbrozen

As I always tell folks, the only value to carfax is to make sure it is a "clean carfax" when you go to sell it to someone who doesn't know better.

british_rover

Well the Camcordtima might be able to beat you in a straight line but the moment you go to turn all but the camry will under steer into oblivion.

The camry well we have to assume the brakes work, the gas pedal doesn't get stuck and the steering wheel does what it is supposed to to figure out where the camry goes. :P

It just matters that the carfax is clean a bad carfax is a big no sale for most people even if the damage is minor.

We have a XC90 in stock right now that was clean till just recently now shows an accident on the passenger side fender. Had the body shop look at it they can't find any sign of repairs or damage. Have someone who wants to buy it but is freaking out about the carfax. I think carfax screwed up as the dealership where this car came from has no record of repairs in their body shop either.

I have been driving that 525iT for the past two days and I have to say if it had the sports package it would be about perfect. It drives great and with a manual that 190ish hp 2.5 liter is enough. Sure the 530 would be better but I would be ok with the 525. Those seats though just aren't good enough. Not enough thigh support and a little too hard. The sport package would probably fix enough of that.

Stupid Volvo seats spoil me.

The interior of that XJR is really rough. NO way would I pay 5,000 for that let alone almost 7,000. Plus three owners over four different states nah I would pass.

Over the past 3 and a half years my demo has racked up about 13,500 miles a year. Just about all of those were from me but I don't always drive that car sometimes I drive something else. Maybe I put 16,000 miles a year in total with all my driving.

I wouldn't even drive an extra car like the XJR 5,000 miles a year maybe I would drive it 3,000 miles a year. At that rate I could keep it till it is officially an antique and still have less then 130,000 miles as long as I buy one with around a 100,000 miles.

Mr_Shiftright

That is true...a C4 would destroy a Camcordima in hot corners.

When it comes to ANY used car, I want RECORDS----if I have RECORDS, I can overcome just about any prejudice, fear or rumor.

xwesx

When it comes to ANY used car, I want RECORDS----if I have RECORDS, I can overcome just about any prejudice, fear or rumor.

Same here. When I look at buying a car, the first thing I always ask is, "do you have its records?" Amazingly, almost every single time the answer is, "no." :confuse:

hpmctorque

'84 was an era of slow cars, generally, so the C4 was exciting, including visually. A new Camry V6 may be faster to 60 than an '84 Vette, but it doesn't begin to impart the excitement of the Vette. I guess what I'm saying is that there's a lot more to performance and excitement than 0-60.

Another way to evaluate the C4 versus new Camry comparison is to think of the feeling one got driving out of the dealership in an '84 C4 compared with the feeling of driving out in a Camry today.

stickguy

Is this something that could float your boat? Probably too weak and underpowered for you though. I expect that I could live with it (hey, I live with a 4 cyl accord, so it has to be a step up!)

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/ctd/1597930974.html

looks pretty loaded. About 75K on the clock. No idea if the price is a fantasy or now.

They do also have a sameyear/miles baser 325 5 speed for 4K less.

210delray

Funny thing for me is even though I keep records and advertise this when selling, no one has actually asked me to look at them! Then again, I've never sold a car worth more than a few thousand. For the last car I sold ('97 Camry 4 with 111K miles in 2004 for $4300), I did give the buyer a list of the last time (and mileage) various items were serviced or replaced (fluids, filters, timing belt, tires, battery, wiper blades, etc.). No one has ever asked about Carfax either, although I suppose that's a more recent thing.

Mr_Shiftright

I wouldn't ask for records on a Camry either. Who wants to read a list of oil changes?

210delray

True, but I also once sold a '90 Sable with 135k miles. I had it shined up real purty, too. I could also honestly say that everything was working as it should on the day I sold it (but no telling when the next thing would break). :sick:

jrosasmc

I found this Bimmer on Ebay not too long ago. It's a car I personally wouldn't buy:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-7-Series-740i-740-IL-1993-BMW-740I-LOW-MI-1-O- WN-MINT-4YR-WARRANTY-SERVICED_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem588626d455QQitemZ380207- 813717QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

Note that the front passenger seat has that twisting problem, which is common in many mid-to-late '90s BMWs. I shudder to think how much it's going to cost if it needs, say a new HVAC sytem or ABS module.

explorerx4

cheap future collectibles

british_rover

A Contender low miles right year need more info of course and the "turbocharged" makes me wonder how long this guy has owned this Jag but...

armes

I see alot of mediocre cars listed as "Classic" cars. What are the decicisive factors used to classify a car as a "Classic"?

Mr_Shiftright

Hagerty uses the term "collectible" which is fair enough, since even bottle caps are "collectible". ANYTHING is collectible. So the term is a left-handed compliment.

A "classic" car should have outstanding qualities that were recognized as such in its day. This might relate to outstanding styling that everyone went GAH GAH over in the showrooms; it might relate to tremendous performance; it might relate to very interesting engineering, a trail-blazer of a car.

ideally, a true "classic" should combine all these elements-----POWER, PRESTIGE, PRESENTATION.

As for hagerty's list, I don't see any of these cars becoming "classics" in any real, believable sense of the word. They are all, in their way, mediocre in every respect. Nothing wrong with being "average", but classic status isn't for average things.

fintail

Some purists use the CCCA recognized list to define a "classic", Which can be found here. On the other end of the spectrum, many will simply use the definition set by their state vehicle registration entity, which usually means anything over 25-30 years old. Like Shifty says, the term "classic" is over-used and really not useful as everyone will see it differently. "Collectible" works, as "special interest", especially for postwar cars.

Mr_Shiftright

Shifty Sez: "If everything is called beautiful, then in fact nothing is beautiful".

Without discernment, sorting, choosing, then everything turns to meaningless mush IMO. You know, Mozart, Manilow, it's all the same. :P

a person can love, and have fun with, and truly appreciate the merits of, an old car, without trying to put a bejeweled crown on its head. A Model A Ford is a Model A Ford---it's not a Duesenberg nor is it even close to being one.

fintail

I think most old cars simply fall into the category of "nice old car", covering a wide range of ages and makers. There's nothing wrong with that. A lack of historical significance does not make a car any less fun.

michaellno

I think most old cars simply fall into the category of "nice old car", covering a wide range of ages and makers. There's nothing wrong with that. A lack of historical significance does not make a car any less fun.

I'll second that ... I think that for many people, what they choose to collect probably has an emotional content to it.

For example, if ever the means and the opportunity arose for me to acquire a "nice old car", I'd have to say that I'd try to find a nice, clean example of what my grandmother drove before she passed away ... a '67 Mercury Monterey coupe with a 390. I really wanted that car, but my mom and uncle decided it was best to just sell it.

Nothing terribly collectible about it, just has some good memories for me.

fintail

And the good part about that old beast is that you could find a really nice one for less than a fortune, and you can actually drive it without being paranoid about it being destroyed. In that way, the less important cars are actually superior. Most true "classics" are not enjoyed. I was so surprised to see that Lincoln Zephyr convertible on the road yesterday (I think those are considered a "full classic").

gsemike

I've had this conversation with my brother numerous times. He would call any 2 door V8 car built before 1971 a 'classic'. I think that is way to broad and could rattle off a list of cars that fit his description that nobody would want.

michaellno

And the good part about that old beast is that you could find a really nice one for less than a fortune, and you can actually drive it without being paranoid about it being destroyed.

Exactly .. my uncle, before he passed, used to own a few "interesting" cars. One of which was a late 60's Datsun - either a 1600 or a 2000 roadster. Then he got into 70's Volvos, which I found amusing because he was always griping about parts cost and availability.

See, I'm not terribly handy, so a restoration wouldn't be my cup of tea, but if I were able to find a nice, clean Monterey for not much money, I doubt it would cost much to keep it running. Just have to get the carbs set up for the altitude here in Colorado.

gsemike

Nice clean sedan

michaellno

Nice.

I wonder how many bodies would fit in the trunk?

Though my grandma's car was a coupe, that sedan you posted was the same color (metallic baby blue) as her's, before she (unfortunately) had it painted beige by the local Earl Schieb.

Sigh.

Oh, and before that, grandma owned an early 60's Comet, which had been repainted a poop brown color.

fintail

Find a nice original or something that someone else restored. There's one out there, somewhere. It would be easy to keep around as a sunny day driver. I do so little to keep my fintail going that I am almost ashamed. There's no point in restoring it, so basic maintenance is all it needs.

That craigslist sedan has an interior that reminds me of my first car, a 66 Galaxie.

xwesx

I have only ever sold two cars, both of which were about five months old at the time. Of course, the buyers didn't ask about service records, but when I gave them the keys to the car, they also received the folder with the service records, receipts, etc. I know - five months... and service records?! Nonetheless, they got 'em. I certainly didn't want to hang onto them for a car I no longer owned!

explorerx4

i'm not real auto mechanical, either, but i am pretty proud that i fixed my mom's '03 malibu exhaust system for about 8 bucks. the mid pipe to muffler was fine, but the connecting bolts rusted out.
i bought some exhaust sealer, and 2 muffler clamps.
sanded the connection between the pipe flanges, glopped on the sealer and put a $2 clamp on each side. it's a beauty of a fix.

Mr_Shiftright

Advice, please.

I've been searching for a MINI for quite some time. Finally I found one that meets my criteria:

1. low miles
2. clean
3. British racing green with white top
4. panoramic sunroof
5. supercharged, 6 speed manual transmission
6. great sound system.
7. one owner
8. the dealer is a good friend of mine

$12K out the door. 2003 model cooper S. This price is "fair", not a bargain but below the average price of 300 similar cars searched on Autotrader.

The BAD (maybe)

CARFAX shows an accident, about 3 years ago. Not a total, nothing noticeable on the lift after careful examination----but there is this "black mark" (for some).

Whaddya think my friends? :confuse:

jlflemmons

The only one on this list I would seek out would be the '88 Fiero GT, and then only with the Getrag 5spd. Not only does the car have good lines, it had some good technology for it's time, ran pretty good, and handled better than just about anything out there at the time. The '88 had a new suspension system that was way ahead of it's predecessors. A hoot to drive, cheap to repair, and you don't see many (or any, these days) on the road.

Would you believe there were companies out there putting 3.8L V6's and Northstar V8's in these things? I road in a '84 model with the 3.8LHO engine installed, and it was wicked fast. Never got to ride in a Northstar equipped, but was told they would pull the front wheels off the ground in a hard launch. Killed the balance of the car.

What many didn't know is that if the '89 had gone to production, there was a 250HP turbocharged version of the Olds Quad4 that had been prototyped into the Fiero for the GTP version. One was driven on a road track (I think it was Watkins Glen?) against the soon to be released '89 Corvette, and so totally humiliated the 'vette that Chevy started complaining. Couldn't have a Pontiac blow the doors off the King of GM for half the price now, could we?

Specs showed that with the turbo Quad 4 the Fiero was at a perfect 50/50 front rear balance with neutral steering and less weight than the '88 GT.

Ahhh, what could have been ...

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's a nice story from the Fiero club but I would take it with a pound of salt. To best an '89 Vette a car would have to put up some very impressive numbers, and I don't see that Slug called Fiero doing it. Only GM could make a small car feel like you're driving an 18-wheeler. And really, would you want a Quad engine behind your ears?

John Fitch made a great car out of the '65 Corvair but nobody bought it anyway.

lemmer

It sounds like a great car. I'd buy it, but I'd want it a tad cheaper than that, especially with the Carfax blemish.

srs_49

I would use the accident as a negotiating point.

I assume the body is straight, wheels track, etc.

Mr_Shiftright

Don't think they'll budge on the price....they just put in new suspension bushings, front and rear rotors and pads, etc--my friend said they spent about $1400 on it for re-con.

I think I could tap into the BMW database through another friend, so that might give me service history. I also think I could eventually find the police report on the accident (I have the date and number) but by that time the car might be gone.

stickguy

just buy it you wussy.

Mr_Shiftright

hahaha.....I never have been an impulse buyer

texases

" never have been an impulse buyer "

Me neither - looking for cars is the fun part, I've been looking for 5 years to replace my current one. Once I buy a car, I'm a little disappointed - my 'sport' is gone for a while...

Mr_Shiftright

Ah the thrill of the hunt --ARE WE NOT MEN?

qbrozen

You never said how many miles.

Have you determined if any body panels have been repainted? That's where I would start.

The volvo I just bought has a reported accident, but I couldn't find any repainted metal, only repainted bumper skins. So I went ahead with the purchase. It was a good deal, though, to compensate.

Mr_Shiftright

that's the rub. My feeling is that any car with a black mark on CARFAX is a 10-15% knock in price. So instead of $12K I should be looking at around $10.5K for this car---this way, when and if I sell it and someone shoves CARFAX in my face, I can at least discount the car.

xwesx

I think you better pass.... what's the dealer's phone #? :P

xwesx

I would think that even with the reconditioning, there is wiggle room. A local dealer here would likely ask $3,000 or more over the trade-in price they gave for a car in that price range, and you can bet they would deduct for items requiring reconditioning, such as tires, struts, cracked windshield, etc. I doubt it would be unreasonable to expect to get it at least $500-1000 under the asking price.

andre1969

One was driven on a road track (I think it was Watkins Glen?) against the soon to be released '89 Corvette, and so totally humiliated the 'vette that Chevy started complaining. Couldn't have a Pontiac blow the doors off the King of GM for half the price now, could we?

Didn't Chevy start getting bitchy once Buick Grand Nationals started giving the Corvette a serious scare? IIRC, once that turbocharged engine was re-worked for 1985, a Grand National would take an automatic-equipped Corvette, at least in 0-60 and maybe the quarter mile. Corvette might've had a higher top speed though. I think the Grand National topped out at 124 mph.

Then there was the crowning glory, the 1987 GNX, which I think had 276 hp. That was the end of the RWD Regal though, so maybe Chevy didn't whine TOO much about that one. Also, the GNX wasn't cheap, although I'm sure it was still cheaper than a Corvette.

Around 1988 or 1989, Buick ran a few test cars, where they put the turbocharged 3.8 in just about everything they offered to see how it would do. One of the more interesting was the big Electra Estate wagon, which they got to do 0-60 in 5 seconds flat. Too bad that never made it to production!

lemko

It wasn't too long ago that Zephyrs were cannibalized for parts to restore more prestigious Continentals.

lemko

Heck, I'd want one!!!

gsemike

Anyone notice that there are now 1,000 pages of this banter?

Cars get into accidents. It doesn't mean that they're always ruined forever. My wife banged up my car a couple of years ago. It was 9 grand to fix but really no worse off when I got it back + I got a new radiator and hoses out of the deal.