Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

omarman

This car will be worth a ton when done.
Okay, a ton of ________________ (Regret? Pea Gravel? What?) :lemon:

Must sell. Need storage. Make offer or interesting trades?? Street rod??
Wait. Don't those interesting things need storage too? :confuse:

au1994

Wow. Just...wow...

andre1969

What can you tell us about the white Celebrity in the driveway?

Unfortunately I don't know anything about it. That house is where my friend rents a garage space to keep his Mark V, and that pic was taken back in October 2005. I remember meeting him at his place, and we drove over in the junky Mark V (amazing how good it looks in that pic, though!), and then he got the good one out of the garage and we took it to the classic car show in Rockville.

While those "A" bodies aren't rare yet, they seem to be disappearing at a pretty good clip these days.

I still see Centurys and Cutlass Cieras fairly regularly, but then that would stand to reason, as they held on through 1996, always sold well, and tended to be purchased by more mature buyers who would (hopefully) take better care of them. One of my neighbors has a '90's-era Century sedan (flush headlights, and the more rounded C-pillar that did away with the quarter windows), and it looks like it's holding up pretty well. I think the Celebrity and 6000 saw their last year in 1989 or 1990, and they weren't selling all that well those last couple years. The Celebrity peaked out around 1984-86, but by 1987 the Taurus was coming on strong, and beat it by a wide margin.

I'd say the three most common 80's vehicles I see around here, in no particular order, are the FWD GM C- and H-bodies (Electra, 88, LeSabre, etc), pre-1988 GM full-sized pickups, and the RWD B-body, mainly Caprices.

I can understand the pickups and the B-bodies, as they were fairly simple, sturdy, and durable, but the C- and H-bodies comes as a surprise to me. I know Lemko had good luck with his '88 Park Ave, and in later years they were better, but I still just figured the FWD, complexity, and relative fragility (if that's a word) would do them in?

jlflemmons

"This car will be worth a ton when done."

Doubtfull. But it will cost a ton to make it not so ugly.

andre1969

Well, a ton of #57 driveway gravel is about $26.40 (I had 21 tons delivered back in April, and the cost was $554.56)

So, I'd say that car's worth at least a ton of driveway gravel. Pea gravel's a bit more expensive though, so it may not be worth that much. :P

Whoever built that thing must have watched "Death Race 2000" a few too many times as a kid. In fact, I'm reminded of a scene in that movie where the hot [non-permissible content removed] blonde chick says to the hot Cowgirl brunette... "Whoever named your car the Bull...was only HALF right!""

tjc78

but the C- and H-bodies comes as a surprise to me. I know Lemko had good luck with his '88 Park Ave, and in later years they were better, but I still just figured the FWD, complexity, and relative fragility (if that's a word) would do them in?

I personally know of a LeSabre of the same vintage that clocked in over 300K on the original motor and trans. It leaked everything, burned a little oil, but everything worked on it including the A/C.

The person that owned it sold it cheap to another family member then it was eventually was donated when it needed a fair amount of stuff to get it through inspection.

Mr_Shiftright

I think that having lived through these Lincolns when they were new, I have etched in my brain the type of owners who bought them new (not the owners who own them now) and I really didn't understand the mindset that found these appealing. Now I can see them somewhat more benignly, as historical testaments to an arriviste's concept of luxury. Also the era they were built in does not inspire my confidence. But hey, you know me, I'm an elitist (and proud of it) :P

omarman

I found a thread on another site regarding the same car for sale on CL last year. Suggestions at that time included finishing the car with a bazooka and rechecking claims that the late John C. Silva designed the Dodge Viper. There was a law suit but...anyway. Even if you fold on some projects, they still may leave a lasting impression.

hpmctorque

I pretty much agree with you. The European luxury models tended to be more elegant, if less dramatic, and drove significantly better. As for inspiring confidence, though, that was a rare quality on both sides of the Atlantic during that period.

Mr_Shiftright

There were some very marginal cars made in the late 70s. Dubious reliability and often very bad road manners.

Automakers, both foreign and domestic, were caught between dying technology of the past and yet-to-be discovered technologies of the future. What they had was transitional engineering--a hodgepodge of experiments, desperation and the vagaries of sloppy mass-production that was "pre quality control" as we understand it today.

Back in the day, "quality control" meant that you pulled defective cars off the line AFTER they were built and tried to patch them up prior to shipment.

My eyes personally glaze over anything built between 1974 and 1985, with rare exception.

tjc78

There is something about the way those old cars drive. Effortless steering, soft comfy seats, and room to stretch out. They don't require constant steering adjustments, just point and go. Handling is non existent of course but secure enough even at illegal speeds.

At one time I had a 79 continental, an 89 Towncar, and a 2000 Solara. I drove the 79 the most. Of course gas was cheaper then.

Mr_Shiftright

I never found them effortless---more like frightening. I'm very tense in those old boats---every curve is a potential disaster and braking is a dodgy enterprise. Not only that, but along with the marginal seating support, and with all the body lean, your muscles get tired very quickly on a long trip. And on narrow roads or streets, their preposterous size helps to terrorize driver, bicyclist and pedestrian alike.

It's good that these big yachts go 25 miles at 35 mph to car shows, or 55 mph on flat 6-lane highways that resemble airport runways. That's all they are good for.

A '55 Buick is sports car compared to some of these big boys.

texases

How much do you think it cost for this restoration (not how much they charged):
BMW factory restoration of a coupe

I particularly like the last quote, something like "total restoration would be over $100,000, resulting car would be worth $40,000."

fintail

Like doing a professional restoration of any old car...it has to be a labor of love. Still better retained value than a new car after a few years.

If I came into some 7-figure windfall, I'd have my fintail shipped off to the MB Classic Center (now that there's one on this continent) for renovations.

Mr_Shiftright

Not only that, he somewhat bastardized the car with a non-factory-original transmission. However, I agree with the swap, as these are not sports cars, but GT cars---very steering, smooth lazy I-6 engine, great for long distance leisurely touring.

Hey, if you have the money and it gives you pleasure, no reason you can't spend 3 or 4X the car's value in a restoration. It's your cash after all. The only annoying aspect is when a person does this and then insists that the car must be worth the cost of restoration---as if, feeling insecure, they need to somehow justify what is, in basis, an emotional decision, not a rational one.

Also the article is somewhat confused. They talk about cranky carburetors, but of course, the CSi in the article is fuel-injected.

lemko

I bet a lot of the restoration cost was in reproducing the tooling. I worked in a factory 23 years ago and the cost of one small die was something like $10K.

bhill2

You know, I'd do the same thing with my '85 380SE if I got a sufficient windfall. It's never going to be a classic, or even worth more than nominal money. But DAMN it's been a good car, and I'd love to have it in a tastefully restored condition.

fintail

An as-new W126 would be pretty cool...growing cult of admirers for those cars, so at least you'd get nice internet comments :shades:

If anything happens to my E55 it will likely be replaced with a W124 500E or a 126.

fintail

I am sure the labor rates in such a shop aren't exactly value-priced either.

Mr_Shiftright

But you could buy a replacement for 1/4 the money---just buy the one somebody ELSE had restored at .25 cents on the dollar.

xwesx

True, but if you owned a particular car for the past 40 years, why would you want a car that belonged to someone else? There is that intangible, sentimental value that cannot be underestimated. It might cost you $100,000 to restore it, but if you aren't doing it as a tangible investment, does it really matter?

Mr_Shiftright

Point well taken, but if you restore it, it's not the car you used to own anyway. :P

steine13

Don't ever love anything that can't love you back...

I learned it right here.
Cheers -Mathias

andre1969

Don't ever love anything that can't love you back...

And if it flies, floats, or fornicates, rent it. It's cheaper!!

au1994

Speaking as a divorced guy, I will definitely agree with one of those three!! :P

bhill2

But you could buy a replacement for 1/4 the money---just buy the one somebody ELSE had restored at .25 cents on the dollar.

You're absolutely right, Shifty. The windfall I got would have to be big enough that I could put out the extra money just for the sentimental value. It's just that this was the first really good car that my wife and I bought. It was used, so we had to take a leap of faith in buying it, but the leap paid off handsomely by providing us with a car that has been dead reliable and took us many places with considerable style and comfort. It now lives in gracious semi-retirement, but neither one us can bear the idea of parting with it. Pursuant to what you said however, it would have to be a big windfall.

fintail

I was thinking like 7 figures anyway...if I'm going to plunk down 50 grand to restore a MB sedan with little real collectible upside (but it would still be a hit at MB shows), I'd better be in a position where that's a small amount of my total money pile.

xwesx

GREAT group of posts! Hahaha; those had me laughing out-loud for a couple minutes (or, as my daughter would say, "a couple whiles").

I would have to agree with you, Shifty, specifically in regard to the factory restoration shop(s) that started this conversation. I think of a restoration as a project that returns a vehicle to as-new condition, using as many original-to-the-vehicle parts as possible and *not* updating/upgrading/changing things, such as transmission type, carb to EFI, adding A/C, P/S, disc brakes, etc. A "restoration" that includes those sorts of changes is a "rebuild" in my way of thinking.

lemko

If something happened to my 1989 Cadillac Brougham, it would be infinitely more cost-effective to buy another one in good condition than to repair / restore mine. But then again, it won't be the same car that was mine since Saturday, January 28, 1989! I'd probably spare no expense to do a Concours-level restoration on it.

lemko

One good thing about restoring the fintail is it's a car you already know pretty well. You know what problems or idiosyncracies it has and can deal with them. You can buy another one that on the surface blows yours away, but could be plagued with hidden gremlins or problems the previous owner tried to cover up.

hpmctorque

An important factor to consider is how much work you can do versus and how much you'd have to pay a shop to do it.

I concluded long ago that, for all my interest and trivia knowledge about cars, I'm a lousy mechanic. I wish I were good with a wrench, but, unfortunately, something in my hard wiring conspires against that. That's why I reluctantly sold my '87 325 earlier this year. I was the second owner, the body and interior were near pristine, the drivetrain had been very well maintained and never abused, but the car needed about $2,600 in repairs and maintenance. Mileage: 127,600. Two dealers offered me $500, and, perhaps sensing my disappointment, suggested listing it on Craigslist. I did, and reluctantly sold it for $1,750. From the large numbers of responses, I know I could have gotten more, but I wanted to avoid the hassle of a lot of strangers coming to my house and test driving it.

Mr_Shiftright

I really wonder if you'd fork up $75000 to restore your car...c'mon, now, Lem, that's a lotta dough.

You could buy yourself one tasty new Cadillac with that kind of money, and have plenty left over.

fintail

All of that is also kind of why I don't want to restore it, and won't unless I come into a lot of money. I can deal with its quirks, and it is pretty good as is, it just looks kind of tired next to a mint car. It's kind of a sentimental thing now, and would be so in a restoration - just like with your Fleetwood.

lemko

Forget a new Cadillac. I'll get the nicest 1950s or 1960s Cadillac that kind of money could buy! :shades:

Heck, if I were to go out and get a new Cadillac today, I'd still end up pretty much buying the same car I already have - a DTS. The only difference is I'd get it in White Diamond this time instead of black which is a ferocious PITA to take care of!

fintail

Get an Eldorado Brougham...certainly cooler than any new model.

andre1969

The only difference is I'd get it in White Diamond this time instead of black which is a ferocious PITA to take care of!

That dark color probably makes the inside of the car a lot hotter, too. Sometimes I wish I had gotten a Park Ave in dark green, rather than that light brown/champagne/sandstone/whatever you call it color I got. But, I'll give it credit...that color is fairly light, so the car doesn't get too hot inside. And it's a color that hides dirt and dust VERY well!

My dark blue New Yorker looks dirty again about 10 minutes after you wash it, sort of like how black does. I guess a dark green would be the same?

tjc78

My dark blue New Yorker looks dirty again about 10 minutes after you wash it, sort of like how black does. I guess a dark green would be the same?


Yes it would be as bad, I have burgundy and its no better either. My S10 is a pewter/beige color and it never looks dirty (and receives no where near the attention my DD does).

In general light cars are so much easier to keep clean.

Mr_Shiftright

True, but also certainly not an everyday car. If one were used to an '89 car, a '58 car would be somewhat of a chore to drive.

michaellno

Andre:
My dark blue New Yorker looks dirty again about 10 minutes after you wash it, sort of like how black does. I guess a dark green would be the same?

tjc:
Yes it would be as bad, I have burgundy and its no better either.

+1 on those statements ... dark colors have been harder for me to keep clean.

Our '02 Explorer was a dark green; might as well have been black for all the dirt it showed. The '05 Focus that replaced it was burgundy; same problem.

My late '03 Saturn L300 was "Pewter" - kind of a brownish silver. Hid dirt quite well.

The current stable - '06 ION, '08 VUE and '10 MINI - are all either gray or silver, all of which do a decent job of not showing the dirt and dust that we get here in Colorado. However, there couldn't be a more boring color palate than what I have in the garage. Yawn.

qbrozen

So a young man (well, mid 20s) emailed me a couple of days ago to tell me how interested he was in the Z. We made an appointment today for 6:30 pm. He arrived at about 6:25 with his younger brother and friend. They all fell in love with the car. We took it for a drive. He still loved it. He agreed to full asking price and left $100 deposit.

hpmctorque

Congratulations! Maybe I should sell my '88 Z. I've kept it as an extra car because it's been low maintenance, and, of course, it's fully depreciated. It's a tired old thing (186,000) but I still enjoy it. There aren't many cars on the road with T-tops these days.

Mr_Shiftright

You see? You prep a car, advertise it skillfully, you price it right, and it finds a new home. Badda-bing, badda-boom, down the road.

lemko

Ironically, my Mercury Grand Marquis which is white still looks clean even after two weeks of rain wheres my DTS will look filthy after sitting on a clear day in the parking lot at work.

tjc78

Definately, I don't know why people think white is hard to keep. Its not, I have owned three white cars and no problems keeping them clean. The only way I would own black is if I was buying used and the deal was too good to pass up. Nothing is nicer though, when clean (in that 1 hour window after washing )

qbrozen

ok, so my FIL finally talked me into helping him sell his Caddy.
I believe its a '75. I brought it home with my today to clean it up and check it over. The scary ride home tells me it needs shocks, so I've ordered new ones already. The AC doesn't work and I've found the condensor is leaking. So I plan to order that as well and hope that is all that is wrong.

The odometer reads 40k. I'm pretty sure that's all it has on it. The overall condition of the interior and engine bay leads me to believe it. Also, found an old service sticker from 1984 that reads 23k miles. Its in pretty nice shape. A good #3 driver for cruise nights or whatever. Here are the pics I took.

So, what do y'all think? Is it worth fixing the AC? Or should I just sell it as is (after the shocks, of course). Would $4500 be a pipe dream with busted AC? Conversely, would $5k be possible with working AC? There's not rush to sell it, so heck, maybe I should fix it and offer it up for $6k? Am I nuts?

omarman

"So I plan to order that as well and hope that is all that is wrong."

Once you begin replacing bits and pieces to upgrade the Cadillac, what if more issues crop up in the process? In for a penny, in for a pound?

It may cost as much to upgrade the suspension and A/C on a '75 Cadillac as it would a '70 Malibu SS, but the return on that investment is gonna be less, I think.

If $6K is the price you have in mind for the car with A/C and shocks upgraded, then consider posting it @ just under $6K with those needs untouched and see what kind of offers come in. Just a thought.

hpmctorque

I don't know what that Caddy is worth, but omarman has a point. See what you can get without fixing it first. That may also give you a clue as to whether it's worth installing new shock. As for the A/C, if you do the shocks you may as well fix the air too.

It's a nice car. Is your FIL the original owner?

By the way, how did you learn to do all the diverse repairs you've described on this board? I admire your talent.

qbrozen

Well, thank you. My father has been a mechanic all his life, including his time in the army, and he taught me starting back when I was a toddler. Then I worked my way through school wrenching on cars and trucks at his shop.

My FIL is not the original owner. He is supposedly just the 2nd, though. He bought it at the Carlisle show almost 6 years ago. It was a mistake. He and his brother wanted to get something and they are Cadillac fans with a low budget. So they agreed to, I believe, $4k on this car at that time. Of course, the market was stronger then, too. But, also, it wasn't a car he loved. In the years that ensued, his brother ran into financial problems and my FIL bought him out, so the car he doesn't love is all his now.

As for the shocks, they only cost me $65 for all 4, and would probably take me all of 2 hours, if that, to replace. So that's going to happen. It just does not ride nice now and test drivers would probably be scared off the car based on that. A cheap and easy fix that will easily pay for itself.

To replace the condensor isn't a huge job, but the part is a bit more expensive (about $140), and, while I know the condensor is leaking now, there is no guarantee that's the ONLY problem with the AC. The compressor clutch does engage, I know that much.

Oh, by the way, does anybody know the name of the paint color??

Mr_Shiftright

I wouldn't *touch* the car other than give it a really great detailing. The AC could turn into a huge expense and really, the car probably doesn't need shocks---they really did bounce around like that even when new in '75. You're probably used to modern cars--and it sounds like you're (please pardon me) cheaping out on the shocks anyway, so I'd rather see you not do anything than put in something that might make the ride worse. That would not make you happy.

Of course, if you actually see *leaking* shocks, or the car slams against the bump stops with a crash, then of course you have to do something. But bouncey-bouncey?---that's a '75 Cadillac right out of the factory.

Looks like a very nice car--I don't see why you couldn't get $5K for it as it sits, especially if you could verify the mileage.

Your pricing speculations are quite accurate. This car could bring $6500 if the AC were ready to roll, so deducting $1500 off the price seems about right, as these old ACs could easily run up a $2K bill.

A used "classic" car that looks great and runs bad will sell far easier than a used "classic" car that runs well and looks bad.

Let someone else have the fun of fixing it up mechanically. You give them the beauty treatment---that's my two cents.

fintail

I could see Lemko in that thing...

Actually it looks nice...I like the color combo for it, not red on white or gold on brown etc.