Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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Comments

  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    They stonewalled. I had an invoice that clearly stated I had ordered and paid for Anchor brand motor mounts, and was shipped some junk. Then when it didn't fit, they claimed it must fit because their catalog said it would???

    I spent over an hour and a half trying to get those POS mounts on, then gave up, went down to the local parts house and bought REAL Anchor brand mounts which bolted right up.

    They never would give me an answer as to why they didn't ship the brand I ordered.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    Thanks for the heads up.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I had a better experience with RockAuto. They sent me parts for an early 944 rather than my later 944. Their catalog had the same part number for all years. They researched the issue and admitted their mistake. Then they refunded my money, told me to keep the parts, and gave me a coupon for my next purchase.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,807
    I had pretty good luck with Amazon ... until recently. Ordered exhaust clamps. Description was vague, but band clamps were pictured. I was sent lousy U-clamps. They won't do anything about it.

    I've also used PartsTrain, AllOEMautoparts, and others. A pretty good site I hit up frequently is FrugalMechanic.com. The current pricing is not always accurate, but at least it does link you to the part you need on each of the shopping sites.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    edited July 2010
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Pretty impressive, but $50,000 per year to keep this car on the road?
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    About $1K per year average cost to keep it repaired and looking good seems like a deal to me. But the scary part was the claim of driving it at 120-mph! (I guess this car has been smoked in.)

    Was a Comet available with the 430 V-8 Hot Rod Lincoln engine option in 1964? :P
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    Even with a 302, why not under the right circumstances. Grandma didn't say it was her trap speed
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    edited July 2010
    Probably the "right conditions" to reach 120 mph with that Comet box and a period 260/289 engine would be a long road leading to a very steep cliff. :shades:

    Seriously, a 120 mph Ford passenger car in 1964 would be a Galaxie Police Interceptor. My dad bought one at Walker and Battat Ford back then.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2010
    No way no how. About 115 would be outstanding, and it would take a long, long time and a lotta room to get there. Even the big Hemis probably couldn't go that fast (130). 60s cars were not geared, nor shaped, for high speeds.

    A '69 Z28 Camaro for instance, certainly every bit a car as a Comet, could barely break 100 mph.

    A 68 Corvette with L88 engine option (the "everest" of old Corvettes?) could probably do 160 mph, but that took 550 HP.

    Even if you could do 130, you'd be absolutely crazy with that suspension and those tires. This would be a frightening white-knuckle experience, ala backroad rum-running.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    umm, the '69 Z28 with a 302 could hit 100 in a standing 1/4 mile. Top speed was only aroun 120 because of the gearing that was used. Built for acceleration, not top end.

    But the only way that Comet ever saw 120 was if little bitty tires were installed with no speedo correction. :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    Top speed was only aroun 120 because of the gearing that was used. Built for acceleration, not top end.

    What is the quickest axle ratio Chevy offered in the Camaro? Could it be possible that they had one so short that it gave blinding acceleration, but that it would redline around 100 mph?

    For instance, a 4.11:1 axle would put you at around 4900-5000 rpm @ 100 mph. A 4.56:1 axle would get you to around 5500 rpm. At least, I'm just making a guess here. I remember driving a friend's '66 Charger that had a tach and a 2.76:1 axle, and it pulled 2500 rpm@75 mph, so I'm extrapolating from that.

    Back in the 1950's, Chrysler actually offered a ratio of something like 6.07:1 in the 300! I can't remember if that was the '55 C-300, or the '56 300B.

    I think it's interesting though, how many cars you'd consider weak can still get up to those higher speeds. I got a '91 Civic sedan up to 115 once. Granted, it was downhill on the interstate, and only according to the speedometer, so it may have been a little off. My old '69 Dart, with just a 225 slant six, had no trouble at all hitting 100 mph. And while I never took it above that, it still seemed to have plenty of pep. It's not like it hit 60 or 70 and just ran out of oomph...it kept right on going!

    I always wondered if my 1980 Malibu, with its 229 V-6, could make it to 100. I found a copcar test of a 1982 Malibu V-6, and it topped out at 100.3 mph. That was better than the K-car at 97.5 mph, or the Fairmont 200-6cyl at 97.3, or the Gran Fury 225 slant six at 96.2 mph. But the 4-cyl Fairmont beat them all, at 103.4 mph! :blush:
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,070
    well, my parents early Dodge Omni ('79?) with the small engine (1.6 or 1.7l) would easily peg the 85 MPH speedo, past the 85 to wherever it stopped moving. This was on a slight, but not severe, downhill, but I think it pegged before the down slope.

    Don't ask me how I know this, and don't mention it to my mother if you see her!

    but, the darned little car was pretty rock solid at that speed.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Yeah, suspension, tires and brakes made 80 mph on a straight road plenty fast in a '64 comet.

    As for the capability of going 120 mph, speedometers were frequently quite optimistic in '64. Some are fast now too, but more so back in the day. That Comet didn't have smog controls, but an automatic equipped Caliente wasn't that caliente.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    My dad had a Horizon of similar age, and I remember when I was a kid he would drive it with the speedo pegged too. He got a kick out of that, especially when zooming by a Porsche etc in the right lane. He liked that little car.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    American V8s of that time really ran out of steam at 5000 rpm. They simply could not breathe properly, and the valves would simply float and lose their functionality.

    I seriously doubt any Comet could hit 120 mph, nor a '69 Camaro Z-28, nor a big block Hemi.

    There is the *mathematical* top speed, that you calculate from gear ratios and then there is the *actual* top speed, which in the real world, is generally considerably less.

    As one person stated in a review, if you took a typical 60s car to 130 mph, you were a "suicidal idiot".
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,361
    Guess they were popular little cars back then. My dad had a Horizon too. IIRC it was a 5 speed. He didn't have it long replaced it with a 86 Shelby Charger. A cool car to me at the time.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    Cooler than the brown on brown S-10 Blazer that replaced our Horizon :shades: :sick:

    Dad never owned a GM car after that one...
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    Guess they were popular little cars back then.

    In the mid 80's I had a dealer-loaner Dodge Omni with the 2.2 litre automatic while my car was in the shop. Noisy, crude, but plenty of scat. Overall a fun little car that was actually bigger than most "little cars." My girlfriend at the time loved it and always wanted to drive when we went out.

    Coming home one night she took a long curve too fast, slid from one side to the other, and finally spun out in the middle of the road coming out of the curve. She had pushed the throttle instead of the brake. When it didn't slow down, she only pushed harder! Oh well.

    A few years later in '89 I test drove a new Dodge Omni 2.2 and it felt nothing like that loaner car. Apparently the automatic trans had been upgraded with some gear changes for better MPG which made it feel sluggish around town at low speeds. I didn't want a manual trans so I never did take the Omin/Horizon plunge.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,807
    Woke up this morning with the goal of getting the Z ready for sale. A little while back, I had crushed the passenger mirror via my garage door opening (don't ask). I purchased a pair on ebay and painted them gloss black to match all the trim. So was working on that and polishing it up.

    At some point, I was inside getting more coffee and the wife asked what I would ask for it. I was thinking $3300, I told her. Although most folks won't think a Z31 is worth that much, its what I feel its worth. She asked what others are selling for. "Well," I said, "there's the problem. I have never seen another like it for sale. Most are rusted or destroyed interior, or blown engine, or something else. A few are show cars and have crazy prices." So then she asked, "Then why are you selling it?"

    Of course, I've thought about this, and I know all the reasons I've given myself for selling it .... yet, when it comes down to it, I don't really know why I HAVE to sell it. I don't WANT to. I just figured we have too many, need the garage space for her Saab, and how much will I really drive it. At the same time, I'll never see another like it, so will I regret not holding it and enjoying it? Quite possibly.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well the reality of it is that rarity or scarcity is only significant if demand is heavy. If you only have 1/2 the supply-demand equation, that's not really an accurate way to assess value.

    One could argue that the reason so few survive is that few people cared about them as much as the people who have owned your car.

    Given that one could count on one hand the number of Japanese cars that have ever achieved collector status or ever brought above-used-car money (and you'd have fingers left over), the only reason to keep it is if you plan to drive a lot and "use it up" for your pleasure.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,070
    well, regardless if whether this is the best/only one in the world, the real questin is, do you actually want or need it? Do you like it? Do you use it?

    If the answer is "not really", then it only makes sense to keep it if you have storage space, and honestly think it is going to be worth hanging onto (for appreciation).

    look at it this way: if you let the nicest one around go, does it matter if you never have the desire to get another one?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,807
    Its not the "value" that's relevant. I know it won't go up in value. I'm not delusional. But I don't think it unreasonable to be looking for $3k for a zero-rust, perfect-running sportscar. It's a nice car that's fun to drive and gets quite a bit of attention.

    As to whether I keep it, it comes down to the typical rational vs emotional debate. Does it make rational sense for me to have 2 1985 japanese 2-seaters? No. But I like them both for different reasons. If I had the space to spare, I wouldn't be considering selling it. The wife has said she doesn't mind the Saab staying outside. I'm just not sure how wise it is to have a convertible out in the elements all the time.

    If I do keep it for emotional reasons, then those emotions will have me putting more into it than it is worth. I would eventually get new carpets, replace the AC, and maybe turbo it. So there is always that "save myself now" factor to consider, too. :blush:

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,070
    just sell it. and I agree that you should get greedy on it, you just might find the person that has been looking for that perfect Z. and 3K does not seem at all unreasonable for a nice, clean car.

    besides, once you sell it, you have space for the next oddball orphan that follows you home.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    umm, the '69 Z28 with a 302 could hit 100 in a standing 1/4 mile. Top speed was only aroun 120 because of the gearing that was used. Built for acceleration, not top end.

    Yep, on both points. And I'm speaking from first hand experience.

    Also, the '302 in the Z-28 did not have hydraulic lifters, so valve float was not an issue.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    I seriously doubt any Comet could hit 120 mph, nor a '69 Camaro Z-28, nor a big block Hemi.

    I don't know about the other two, but a '69 Z-28 certainly could, though that was about it. And the sweet spot for that '302 was between 4000 and 6000 RPMs, and would easily go higher, because of the cam profile that was used. That also, however, made it harder to launch from a dead stop. So 1/4 mile times were a bit deceptive, on the low end.

    I can still remember an XKE pulling away from me on the PA turnpike above Pittsburgh when me and my room mate were on the way to visit his cousin. My Z-28 pulled away from the Jag between 70 and 100, then the Jag started catching up and by the time we were nearing the 120 mph mark, the jag was pulling away.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    My recollection from the big pile of Road & Tracks I had back then is that speedometers tended to be wildly optimistic back then. I'd subtract 10% for that. I think 110 mph or so is all that most of those muscle cars had in them.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd certainly bet $20 bucks on 100 mph a radar-tested run, as being a lot closer to reality than 120. Even with mechanical lifters, that engine just can't breath at higher rpm. The valves won't float, they'll just bend.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,117
    My recollection from the big pile of Road & Tracks I had back then is that speedometers tended to be wildly optimistic back then. I'd subtract 10% for that. I think 110 mph or so is all that most of those muscle cars had in them.

    My '89 Gran Fury's speedometer was off by about 10%, but 10% in the other direction! 100 mph true registered 91 mph on the speedometer. I had to get the thing recalibrated in the hopes of fighting a speeding ticket. I still have the little card somewhere that shows the speedometer readings versus the true speeds when it was tested.

    I also had a 1979 Newport with a speedometer that was WAY off. I got busted by the cops doing 88 mph in a 65 zone. I knew I was speeding, but didn't think it was THAT bad. I do remember the speedometer reading around 73 mph. I had oversized tires on the back of that car, but I forget now what they were. I think 235/75/15? Stock on that car would've been a pathetic 195/75/15, but this car came with extra wide road wheels, and they might have used a 215/70 or 225/70 R15.

    This seems to be a recurring them with me and Mopars, I've noticed. My '79 5th Ave's odometer reads a bit slow, I've noticed. About 3%. So I'd guess the speedometer might be a bit slow, as well? And I still remember the day I brought other '79 NYer home from PA. A friend drove me up there to get it, and followed me back home. He gets on the cell phone at one point and calls me...asks me why I'm doing 80 mph? I'm not, I replied, I'm only doing 70! Yup, that one's speedo was off, as well!
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 17,361
    I was stunned to find out that the speedo on my new 09 Genesis reads 4 MPH slow along most of its range. At 75 I'm actually doing 71. I checked it on two different GPS units and a few of those radar units they set up on the side of the road.

    On another note my 93 Taurus had a bad speedo. I got a 71 in a 55 ticket. The speedo read 60. I had it fixed and took the repair bill to court and they didn't care. Of course this being Jersey they reduced it to a "no point" ticket but still had to pay a fine.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    The vertical speedo unit in a fintail is notoriously inaccurate, usually reading 10-15% fast. But it looks cool. The E55 is very accurate according to radar signs anyway.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Best way to check the speedo is with a stop watch on a measured mile. 60MPH, one mile in 60 seconds. Even better is to use the vehicle odometer over 10 miles at 60MPH. If you hit 10 miles exactly in 10 minutes at 60, you are pretty dang close. Radar is only accurate under controlled conditions. Before I start a word-war here, I used to install those things. They are much better now, and the laser units are pretty much spot on. But the radar units tracked the largest object in the target area. We used to play games with the things. Find a train running on a track alongside a highway. Train going 60, you are passing it at 80, radar reads 60 but will start jumping around as you get closer. When you get close enough, the radar will see you as "bigger than" the train, and clock you correctly.

    I also remember how the A/C blower on the Dodge/Plymouth interceptors used to drive the old Keystone radar units crazy. You could aim the unit at a tree down an empty road and flip the blower to high. Clock the tree at 45 MPH :surprise:

    Lots of little podunk towns wrote up tickets for 60 in a whatever. The old Keystone unit had a calibration function that generated an artificial "signal" that would calibrate to 60MPH. The town of Kendleton, Texas police force got busted on that one. Especially since the fines were to be mailed to a post office box in Bellaire, Texas. :mad:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,760
    I've just used GPS units, usually within a mph or two. But no doubt there can be calibration issues.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 54,070
    I remember a test form a few years back in Car and Driver. THey were evaluating detectors, and other evasive measures. One of the things they did was to have a slippery car (I think a corvette) head toward the gun, with a tractor trailer way behind it (to the point of being out of site).

    Yup, at a distance where they could physically see the Vette, the gun was clocking the truck way off in the distance.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited July 2010
    One thing to keep in mind is that radar detectors used to (still do???) lock on to and measure the strongest return. Note that the strongest return may not always be from the biggest physical object. The amount of RF (radar) energy that bounces off an object and is returned to the radar is a very complex interaction of materials and angles and surface area. These parameters interact in subtle ways to create what is known as the radar cross section, or RCS, of an object, that may only depend on physical size in a small way.

    In the aerospace industry, a lot of attention and money is thrown at understanding and reducing the RCS of aircraft and the equipment that goes into them.

    Now for most vehicles, being of similar construction and using like materials, the RCS will probably be closely related to the frontal area presented to the radar. So a passenger car probably does have a lower RCS than an SUV. But doing something simple, such as tilting the radiator down at a slight angle, could have a significant effect on the strength of the returned radar signal. That is, you just made the RCS smaller.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,177
    One thing that might help the Vette avoid detection to some degreee is that the radiator is tilted. Sounds good, at least!
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Stealthier than the 'Vette?

    The lowly Fiero. Radiator tilted down, composite body panels, and an irregular frame structure made up of over 100 irregularly shaped pieces of varying lengths.

    We used to drive radar nuts with my '84. I drove into a speed trap in Arkansas one day running about 20 over. Saw the cop point the radar and I nailed the brakes. I knew I was speeding, he knew I was speeding, but the radar couldn't get a lock. As I drove by I could see him whacking the side of the hand held unit as if there were something wrong.

    On the flip side, though, that little beast presented a reflection off the backend that could be picked up a long way off. Cast iron engine block sitting sideways with next to nothing between it and the back end of the car. :sick:
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    edited July 2010
    Wish I had a car to take you up on that offer ;) .

    Well, if memory serves me right (that was a few years ago :P ), the 67-69 Z-28's would easily rev past the 6000 red line mark on the tach, at least once, anyway. My '69 could reach 60 mph in 1st gear (1000 RPMs/10 mph), 80 in 2nd, and 100 in 3rd, and still had pull in 4th at that speed.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2010
    Well the published stats suggest otherwise, but you know, there are cars in print and then there are real cars. I'd be surprised that a '69 Z-28 could hit a genuine 120 mph, but I'm not saying it isn't possible. American pushrod V8s are not known for a high RPM powerband. You can take them there, but nothing much is going on after 5000 rpm.

    Also, acceleration is not linear. As the car's speed increases, the HP required to go faster and faster is not linear, but exponential.

    So to go say from 140 to 160 mph in a 200 HP car doesn't require a 15% increase in HP, but maybe a 30% increase. And the next 20 mph might require a 50% increase.

    Many a man has changed gearing to go faster, only to find out that there's not enough HP to pull the gear.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    edited July 2010
    no, 50k since it was new.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    the Z-28 was an engine built for Trans-Am racing. the ford version made max horsepower @ 5800 rpm
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,452
    There was a Ford version of the Z 28?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Not exactly. He might be talking about a Mustang Boss 302 that was, like the Z-28, put together specifically to compete the the Trans-Am series.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 21,030
    I started writing once, got rid of it and it turned out even less clear than the original would have been. I was referring to the Boss 302.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'd imagine that a Boss 302 with street gearing would top out at about 115 or so.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Yep, maybe 120, but that would be about it. I remember the W30 442 I got to play with back in '70 could turn 110 in the quarter, but topped out at about 116. Got there in an awfully big hurry, though! :surprise:

    For the record, that killer 455 would float the valves at about 5400RPM. But I have never driven a car since with so much in-your-face, stump pulling torque. Lord, that thing was a monster!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's interesting---the "torque" is very much related to cylinder displacement (not # of cylinders, but their individual volume) and this gives one a "seat of the pants" sense of power. However, when you take a modern car, with smaller displacement, but with superior ignition, lesser weight, better tires etc., it can usually better the performance of the "monsters" by a good margin. I think the mythology of the muscle cars is better than their actual performance, against modern standards I mean.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    I agree with all that. Truth be told, Detroit muscle was being exposed by Japanese superbikes just as the muscle car era was peaking. Remember the first CB750 K1 you ever saw back then?

    Fast, quick, 5-speed trans, and superior braking made it a performance bargain which grabbed attention beyond the usual biker world. And a few years after Honda warmed up the market, Kawasaki stepped up with the faster, quicker 900 Z1.

    High performance still ruled in the 70s dealer showrooms, but it was up on 2 wheels. And yep, there was no doubt that the 60s were over. And perhaps a bit over-rated. :shades:
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    But still--that in your face GRUNT with all the noise and belching hydrocarbons and those smoking bias ply tires----it *was* impressive. Many "fast" modern cars are rather boring unless you really try to scare yourself. But a big 'ol muscle car is fun at 55 mph, too.

    Most interesting to me is how quickly muscle cars evaporated. 1971 YES 1974 NO. That was it.

    This rapid extinction reminds me of your comment on Japanese motorcycles. Within three years of the introduction of the Honda 750-4, the entire British motorcycle industry collapsed. I don't think I ever saw one model of one product utterly destroy the competition all by itself.
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