Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lemmer

I can see a premium, but not anywhere that much. A GTS gives you 29 hp over an 1987 928 S4, a little better brakes and some other minor bits and pieces. How much is a really nice S4 worth? Can the GTS values hold up? It seems like the 928 lover segment is a super thin slice of the Porsche pie.

I guess I am too pragmatic. It makes no sense to me that a GTS would be worth multiples more. I'll take an S4 and a 944 Turbo S to go with it instead.

Mr_Shiftright

Well one thing to keep in mind is that a) the GTS was a *very* expensive car when new, and b) the Porsche 928, not being particularly collectible, does not behave in pricing like a true collectible....in other words, with a 928, or say a C5 Corvette, or for that matter most modern 90s cars....they are worth MORE the newer they are, not the older they are.

So the non-collectible works in reverse from the collectible in terms of pricing.

This is one way to judge whether a car is leaning toward collectibility or not.

We see the 928 and the C5 behaving just like ordinary used cars---even though they have relatively good resale value, compared to say a 90s Honda.

With Alfa Romeos, on the other hand, the older they are the more you pay for them---except for the very last 90s models, which outsell the 80s models. So what that says is that the last generation of US Alfas, the fuel-injected whale tails, are not acting like collectible cars.

A GTS is still worth a lot less than somebody paid for it when new. Compare to a Z-28 Camaro!!

erniesdad

There's a big difference between a 928 gts vs an s or s4. There were only maybe 1000 GTSs built tops. In 95, the last model year, I think porsche built under 100. That makes them worth a heck of a lot more than a cat castrati us spec 928s automatic.

Mr_Shiftright

It's a whole different car actually---the GTS is a true "supercar", even by modern standards. It is an awesome piece of machinery and certainly capable of keeping up with many a modern $100K++ exotic automobile with a top speed of about 170 mph. When they were raced in the mid 90s, they were very competitive with the Porsche 993 GTRs

fortee9er

Hi guys,
I am hoping you can help me out with some advice. My wife's 1994 Mercury GM was in an accident and it is not worth repairing so I am in the market for a new (to her) car to replace the 1994 Mercury Grand Marquis she has been driving.
I am looking for something similar to the GM, a four door sedan (or perhaps a wagon). We often have my elderly parents as passengers so no SUV or high riding vehicles that would make entry and exit difficult for them. I need something that will provide a few years of reliable service and be reasonably cheap to buy and maintain. I've thought of another Mercury GM/Ford CrownVic/Lincoln Town Car, BMW 740, Mercedes S class, Infiniti Q45, Volvo 940...
So what do you guys think?

texases

If your list includes BMW, MB, and Infiniti, the car I'd recommend is a used Lexus LS430. Those things define 'smooth', are not that expensive to maintain, and are extremely reliable. 'cheap to maintain' doesn't fit BMW, MB, or Volvo. Inifiniti, maybe.

Mr_Shiftright

Well when you said "cheap to maintain" that throws Mercedes, Volvo and BMW out the window entirely.

The Infiniti is a nice car and bound to be reliable, but if you're talkin' "bang for the buck" you can't beat an American sedan. Ford seems to be riding high right now and it may end up being the sole survivor in domestics, so that's something to think about.

fintail

I have to second that...a previoua generation LS is very solid and not dramatic to maintain,and have also fallen to an attractive price point. I'd steer away from the Euros unless you are like some people and enjoy high maintenance rides. The domestics you list are pretty solid too, with maybe late Caddys added to the list.

fortee9er

I did not include the LS 430 in my initial post because those cars are very popular and naturally command a higher price. I am a bottom feeder so I always look for the not so popular choice that will render similar service.
I've been in a friend's LS 430 and it is a very nice car. I'll meed to price them and compare to the FoMoCo sedans (used).

tjc78

Nothing depreciates like a Town Car or Grand Marquis. If you liked your 94 you will like the newer ones every bit as much. The only real difference is the 04+ models have rack and pinion steering. They are dinosaurs, but great riding, cheap to maintain, and are reliable.

Antother vehicle you may consider is a used 08/09 Taurus/Sable. While not "lookers" are generally reliable and comfortable sedans.

xwesx

In my experience with this past decade's Ford cruisers, they are just as comfortable as the previous generations while being more responsive and efficient (better handling... which isn't necessarily saying much, more oomph, better fuel economy).

tjc78

Yes, I have driven pretty much all the different vaiations of the Panther platform and the newer ones are a touch better in the handling department. I also had a typo above, 03 was the first year of rack and pinion. Over the years they changed certain things here and there such as bigger brakes in the late 90s and the 4.6 got a touch more power in later years.

My Grandfather has an 04 Grand Marq Ultimate and I don't mind any time behind the wheel at all.

lemko

Speaking of Panther platforms, this one's in my fleet as my daily beater:

tjc78

Nice! My Grandfather's is very similar except with a black top & interior.

andre1969

My Grandfather has an 04 Grand Marq Ultimate and I don't mind any time behind the wheel at all.

My biggest beef with the Grand Marquis and its siblings is the interior. It's a comfortable enough place to ride, although I don't think legroom's all that generous for this size of car. But, like many other cars today, the interior has just gotten too plasticky inside. One of my friends has a 2004 Crown Vic LX, and inside it looks like copcar or a taxi with a leather interior. And with the Grand Marquis, I think about the only differences are they put fake woodgrain on the door panels where there's just gray plastic on the Crown Vic, and the GM gives you map pockets in back of the seats, instead of hard plastic slabs that the CV gives you.

Before the 2004 CV LX, my friend had a 1995 Grand Marquis GS, and that car just seemed more plush and upscale inside. And I think those older squared-off models seemed downright luxurious inside!

Still, they're decent cars overall. I wouldn't buy one brand-new, I don't think, unless it came with a huge rebate. But, as used cars...well, after my Intrepid got totaled, a CV or GM was on my list of considerations. The main reason I got the Park Ave was all the stuff it had on it. Supercharged engine, sunroof, trip computer, HUD, and a whole bunch of other stuff that I don't really need, but is cool to have (until it breaks, I guess). If this thing had just been a base model with no sunroof, I think I would have kept on looking.

Alas, sunroofs are pretty rare on the CV/GM. I think they're a bit more common on the Town Car, and the Marauder offered it, I think.

tjc78

although I don't think legroom's all that generous for this size of car.

You are right, they do lack in that deparment a tad. I am 6' and am very comfortable, but the seat is all the way back.

xwesx

Haha; as far as beaters go, I wouldn't mind that (until the first time I filled it up).

My grandparents have a 2001 CV with all the bells and whistles. I agree that the dash stands in stark juxtaposition to the rest of the interior, but it is a very comfortable car.

Oddly, when I was around 16, my two favorite "new" cars were the Town Car and the Geo Tracker. :confuse: This was about 1993. I still like the Tracker even though I have passed up countless opportunities to purchase one. As for the Town Car... not so much.

bhill2

I have one other suggestion for you, based on personal (2nd hand) experience. In the last place that we lived, the couple next door had purchased a minivan (in this case a Dodge Grand Caravan) specifically because one or the other set of parents traveled with them and the kids. The older folks found the van easy to get in and out of and greatly appreciated the seating position. Of course, it means that you are driving a minivan, and I will leave it to others to recommend one if you went that way.

xwesx

That's true; in terms of ease-of-entry/exit, nothing beats a minivan. 3rd and 4th generation Chrysler vans were actually somewhat enjoyable to drive. 5th gen (2008+) have had some horrendous problems, including 12,000 mile brake pad/rotor replacements on 2008 and 2009 models being very widespread.

I have never driven one, but have ridden in second-gen Sienna vans many times, and I find them to be very comfortable as well.

andre1969

I talked on the phone with that guy who owns the 1952 Benz I've been storing. He found a new place for it, and it should get towed away around July 1. In talking to him, I found out that it's actually a parts car for a 1954 Benz...I'd always thought it was another '52. Anyway, he bought this '54 way back in 1965, for something like $400. I think he bought it in Massachusetts. He was a sophomore in college at the time.

In 1968, he had a federal gov't job, thought he was making good money, and went out and bought a new Javelin. However, he was attached to the '54 Benz, so he got the bright idea to start having it restored to its former glory. And now, in 2010, that '54 is sitting in his garage, in multiple pieces!

That just blows my mind! I mean, I know this guy has been talking about fixing up this old Benz for years now, but I had no idea that he's been wanting to do it for 42 years. That car's been in pieces awaiting restoration longer than I've been alive!

xwesx

Haha; that's nuts, but I'll shut up now. I have a few of those projects myself, along with a house, and all are closing in on the (first) decade mark very soon....

texases

Same here, I've had a car in pieces for over twenty years - luckily, it's one of those Pocher models (the Rolls), so it's on a shelf in the closet!

fintail

He should give up and pass those things on to one of the few people who can actually use them, while said people still exist. Restoration costs for such a car would be insane, like that wacky Edsel sharing shop space with your DeSoto.

Mr_Shiftright

There is no upside in restoring a '54 Benz sedan from scratch. It's not even a particularly interesting car technically or historically. If it were a fairly clean running survivor, that'd be a different story. Might be sensible to spiff it up.

fintail

And IIRC the car Andre has dealt with isn't even an Adenauer, just a 220 of that odd semi-prewar style. Interesting as a survivor, but probably worth no more than a fintail or ponton if restored.

andre1969

Yeah, just a 220 sedan. It looks like this, only not so nice:


This might sound kinda snobby on my part, but if it was an Adenauer, I might have offered to use my pickup and drag it into the garage for a few days, while the county does their follow-up sweep through the neighborhood, and then put it back out afterward.

I could probably just let that 220 sit, as-is, since it was my '79 NY'er that got me busted by the county, with its front plate in the dash, giving the inspector the impression it was an untagged car. That also tips me off that they didnt' actually come onto the property, but just cited me for what they could see from the street, since if they actually went to look at the car, they would have seen the tag on the back, with its up-to-date registration.

But, the old garage that the Benz is sitting behind is on borrowed time itself. It dates back to the 1920's, possibly earlier. There are old license plates from the late 20's and early 30's nailed to the wall in there, and the building isn't in the best of shape. I've been flip-flopping between tearing the old house down and building new, or just adding onto the old house, but either way, it will encroach upon where the old garage currently sits. And when that old garage goes, there's really no place to hide a car anymore. Except back in the woods, where it's kinda swampy, and it would probably sink and rust pretty quickly.

lemko

Shoot, there's a guy at my job who's ALWAYS talking about fixing up a 1975 Pontiac LeMans Sport that's been sitting in his garage for at least as long as I've been working here, (19 years next month). He'd be better off just going to Carlisle or on eBay or Craigslist and finding a better example as I imagine it wouldn't be cost-effective to restore a basket case LeMans. He also has a 1991 Chevrolet Caprice Classic LTZ and a 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic - both in sort of ...eh...condition which he also talks about fixing up.

lemko

I have GOT to see that Edsel when they're done! That should be an Edsel with Rolls-Royce fit and finish! I hope at least it's one of the upper-end Citations and not a Pacer or Ranger. Shoot, if I went totally bananas and wanted to do a concours-quality restoration of my 1988 Park Avenue, it probably wouldn't even approach a quarter of those costs!

lemko

That car looks like an update to the prewar Mercedes-Benz 170 which appears to be the one used as Colonel Klink's staff car on "Hogan's Heroes."

andre1969

He'd be better off just going to Carlisle or on eBay or Craigslist and finding a better example as I imagine it wouldn't be cost-effective to restore a basket case LeMans.

Yeah, probably. Here's a '75 LeMans Sport Coupe that's been bid up to $5300, with about 9 hours left to go. It's hardly mint-condition pristine, but not too bad looking. I really don't care for that loud red color, or those aftermarket wheels, and that "GT" badging means nothing...this car has a 350-2bbl putting out maybe 155 hp at best. The car also has no a/c (can't see it from the eBay pics, but in the photobucket link he provides you can), and I think I had that same aftermarket JVC radio once upon a time! I remember I had a JVC that I put in my 1980 Malibu, and then I put it in my '69 Dart, and then my '68, and I think it even ended up in my '82 Cutlass until it got replaced by a Kenwood.

lemko

I think that car would look pretty sharp with a set of those Pontiac factory wheels painted to match the rest of the car. No A/C and an aftermarket radio are serious handicaps. Speaking of aftermarket radios, I had a Sparkomatic radio/tape in my 1968 Buick Special Deluxe that I mounted underneath the dash as not to spoil the original appearance with the cool Sonomatic AM radio with the word BUICK spelled across the pushbuttons.

fintail

And that one too is pretty much a lost cause unless someone is into a labor of love. An Adenauer would probably cost twice as much to restore...but I know those cars do lure people in now and then.

Be sure not to toss those license plates or any other knicknacks you might find in that garage...all of that junk is worth something to someone these days.

There are some good Youtube videos of junkyards that show how bad wet ground in harsh climates is for cars.

fintail

That's actually a postwar car...although the TV show could have made the mistake and few would have known or cared.

My old MB specialist has a nice original 170:



And it's a diesel...very agricultural. He also has one of those 220s, but not as nice as the 170. And yes, that's a fintail universal wagon beside it.

Mr_Shiftright

Even an Adenauer restoration would be a suicide mission unless it was a 300d convertible model, which are quite valuable. But a trashed Adenauer would never bring you even 25% of your investment in restoration---truly a folly to attempt.

boomchek

And yes, that's a fintail universal wagon beside it.

I noticed that. Is that an old picture, because iirc you said it was listed for sale, or maybe it was another example that was for sale.

And I like the white 170. Neat looking car.

lemmer

How about a big engined 914? Didn't Shifty kick around the idea of getting one of these a (long) while back?

oregonboy

I have always been a fan of 914s, however that one just looks wrong, with the painted rear roof pillar.

lemmer

No, that is exactly what makes it look right. The vinyl is terrible. If they would have painted the pillars at the factory, the 914 would have been an unmitigated success. Well, maybe not.

fintail

Yeah, the photo is several years old...I haven't actually seen the cars in some time, I have moved since then. He did end up selling the universal - always has about a dozen projects in the work, and that thing had people lining up for it.

That old 170 would make a 200D fintail look like a Veyron.

fintail

A decent restoration of an Adenauer has to run a good 100K...and you still have to buy a heap for too much money from its owner. Makes restoring a fintail for 30-40K seem like a bargain.

stickguy

heck, I love it. Even in that garish red.

All that for $7,500? I know you can't get there from here!

If I was in Dallas, I would buy it. ANd probably get in way over my head, since I have no clue what to do with it other than take it to a Prosche specialist, and pay lots of money for stuff I never heard of.

but still, for $7,500, is it possible to go wrong? Sell off the boxster suspension and wheels (5 lug) and be in even cheaper.

xwesx

I was thinking the same thing. A friend of mine used to have a 914 in baby blue when we were in college, but he totaled it on Chena Hot Spring Road with too much speed and not enough attention. It was a fun little car.

Mr_Shiftright

I've owned two 914s---my idea was to install a Boxster engine in one---this makes more sense than a 9.5:1 KABOOM engine with finicky Webers.

lemko

...in the early '70s, I recall a TV game show that often gave away 914s as prizes. Can't remember the name of the show or the host, but I remember the cars.

lemmer

Boxster engines aren't exempt from regular KABOOMs of their own. Unlike a Boxster, on a 914 you don't have to worry about airbag and abs warning lights.

You don't think that car is worth $7500?

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, it's probably worth $7500 if it's well done.

True, you'd have to be sure to get a later model Boxster engine (2001 on up, say).

But a high-compression VW pancake engine with flat-top pistons might become a hand-grenade with a wobbly pin waiting to fall out....not a matter of if, but when....also a gas hog with the Webers.....so you know, building up a 914 well over stock configuration has its trade-offs.

The stock 914s definitely need more power, however. The 914/6 was pretty scary to driver---when a mid-engine cars wants to spin, even the most expert drivers would have a hard time catching it.

VW engines are so cheesy, I'd be reluctant to build an entire car around one.

omarman

Here's the same car listed on CL now for $7K or best offer. Seller has more pics available but I don't see a link.

lemmer

He mentioned somewhere the CL ad doesn't include the Boxster wheels and all the 5 lug conversion stuff.

Mr_Shiftright

Well he's already taking a blood bath on the thing---rebuilding the engine alone, if done professionally, is at least a $5K investment, perhaps more, even though it's a VW engine.

lemmer

How much power do you figure he is getting out that old VW engine?