Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

stickguy

you forgot the most important part, even better than being "green"

It is cheap.

andre1969

I stopped by the mechanic after work today, to make another payment on my '57 DeSoto's work. That '58 Edsel that the owner's paying around $130,000 to restore was on the lift next to it. The body is now mounted to the frame. I was talking to the mechanic about it, and he said that it was actually a bit of a stripper model. It's a Citation, the top line model, yet it's a stripper. It didn't even have power steering or power brakes, although the mechanic added both in the process of that $130,000 restoration.

This thing has a 345 hp 410 V-8 under the hood and has a base weight of around 4230 lb, so I guess it was quite a handful without ps/pb!

Oh, and he got a couple "new" cars in, but I don't know what he's going to do with them. One is a 1959 Buick LeSabre 4-door hardtop, and the other is a '65 Chevy Biscayne 2-door sedan, I'd guess with no motor, judging from the way it's sitting. Both are pretty ratty looking.

One thing I thought was pretty interesting though about the Biscayne, is that for being the cheapest trim level of Chevy, it didn't seem like a cheap car. The interior was pretty nice, with full vinyl on the doors and no exposed metal, and a nice fabric pattern on the seats. Looking in my old car book, the base price of a '65 Biscayne 4-door sedan was $2417, while the Impala 4-door sedan was $2672 (there was no Impala 2-door sedan in '65, or I would've compared that body style).

That's a $255 price difference, or about 10%. What all, exactly, DID the Impala give you back then, besides maybe a little more trim and 6 taillights instead of 4. Maybe the interior was a little nicer, but this Biscayne seemed pretty decent inside. Maybe the Impala came with more features? For instance, maybe a heater was standard on the Impala, but optoinal on a Biscayne?

Just for comparison, with newer cars, I've looked at some Nissan Altimas online. Looks like you can get the fairly basic S model for about $19,000. For around $21K, or about 10% more, you can get a power driver's seat, alloy wheels, sunroof, and a few other odds and ends. Make it 15% more, or around $22,000, and you can get leather and heated seats! Beats the heck out of paying 10% more just for a little bit of trim and two extra taillights.

gsemike

I've seen worse for this money I think

Kind of interesting

Someone must want this for the kitsch appeal

Own Jerry Seinfeld's car

Roll in style

lemko

I like that Caddy, but the seller didn't list the year. By the looks of it, it appears to be a 1982 or 1983 model. Still, the HT4100 in it greatly frightens me.

qbrozen

I like the chevy. Would like to see better pics, though. Crappy cell phone pics make the paint look like it might be a cheap respray.

andre1969

That Hornet ad amuses me. Okay, I can see the rationale for not getting the muffler or horn fixed. Neither one would probably cost very much money, although I guess if the horn has a short somewhere, that could take awhile to track down. Both of those issues are something you'd need a repair shop to fix, unless you knew how to do it yourself. But c'mon, the HEADLIGHT? Jeez, just go down to the local auto parts store and pay the $7.95+ tax for one. How cheap can we be?

Mr_Shiftright

The headlight just needs a re-charge! :P

And the horn is only a fuse, 35cents.

andre1969

And the horn is only a fuse, 35cents.

That would be pathetic, if it really was just a fuse. But, I wouldn't be surprised if there was something more major lurking there...otherwise you'd think they'd fix it, right?

Mr_Shiftright

yes I was being sarcastic. It's been my experience, and probably yours, too, that when someone says "easy fix" it means they've had it looked at, gotten some shocking news, and slammed the hood shut.

I'm a firm believer in "worst case scenario shopping" when it comes to used/old cars, and believe me, I have bought a TON of old cars (I'm making out a list of all the cars I've bought and sold, and it's well over 125 at the moment, as my memory dims with age).

So with this Hornet, I'd assume I'll be pulling off the steering wheel for the horn issue, and digging into the wiring, fuse box, relays, etc, for the lights.

andre1969

A few years ago, when I was having some other work done on it, I had the mechanic look at the horn on my '79 5th Ave. The fuse had blown, so he put another one in it, tried the horn, found it was sounding weak, and then it blew the new fuse.

Could that just be the horns themselves getting old, and needing to be replaced? Or potentially some deeper, darker, more expensive problem?

Mr_Shiftright

Hard to say...it would be good to bench test the horn to see if it's really defective or if it wasn't getting proper voltage through the horn relay. Sometimes, previous owners re-wire the horn without running it through a relay. That won't work.

jlflemmons

Don't forget, some of those old AMC had the horn built into the rim of the steering wheel. If the rim switch shorts out, the horn won't shut up until you pull the fuse.

One of the dumbest things I ever saw on a car...

boomchek

That's a lot of money to pay for an Edsel restoration. I wonder if adding the power steering and brakes would add or diminish to the value as restored vehicles are usually worht more if they're as original as possible.

andre1969

That's a lot of money to pay for an Edsel restoration. I wonder if adding the power steering and brakes would add or diminish to the value as restored vehicles are usually worth more if they're as original as possible.

I dunno...that's a good question. This Edsel also got converted to disc brakes up front, which is going to ding originality even more.

I let my mechanic talk me into converting my DeSoto to disc brakes up front, and it's also getting a dual master cylinder. I guess it'll be better from a safety perspective, at least, although stopping never was a weak point on this car, provided everything was adjusted properly, and nothing was leaking! The master cylinder is a Corvette unit, although I forget the year, while the disc brake setup is '73-77 GM intermediate. Originally he was talking about using Volare disc brakes, and that had me concerned. I don't like the idea of compact car brakes on a car this big! At least with the '73-77 GM intermediates, some of those actually outweighed my DeSoto, so that should be adequate braking power.

Mr_Shiftright

Chrysler brakes are a PITB -- so I'm all for this conversion.

michaellno

And it's not like andre is looking to put his car into competition, so the originality factor ought not to be that important.

When is the expected completion date?

andre1969

Chrysler brakes are a PITB -- so I'm all for this conversion.

Yeah, I can vouch for the PITB part! Between the "Total Contact" front brakes that required two master cylinders per wheel, and the back brakes that you needed a special wheel puller to get the drums off, and the fact that none of them have self adjusters as far as I know, I'll probably be better off in the long run.

BTW, when did self adjusting brakes come out? My '68 Dart had them, although they didn't always work.

andre1969

And it's not like andre is looking to put his car into competition, so the originality factor ought not to be that important.

When is the expected completion date?

Yeah, I'm sure they'd have a fit if I tried to put my car in one of those AACA events like Hershey. My most original old car is probably also my least valuable...my '79 New Yorker with the intermittent no start/stalling problem.

Last time I asked him, the mechanic said my car should be ready by the end of summer. I'm not holding my breath though!

bumpy

GM had self-adjusting brakes on the pickups in 1960, and I would assume that higher-dollar cars would have had them a few years before the trucks did. Chrysler was probably just too stodgy to break away from the old setup then.

Mr_Shiftright

1946 Studebaker had the first system similar to the modern one, but another more primitive system appeared in the 1925 Cole.

fintail

Does my fintail have self adjusting brakes? As I run away from brake work, I have never touched the ones on my car. I do know its dual circuit system was considered high tech 50 years ago.

fintail

Does my fintail have self adjusting brakes? As I run away from brake work, I have never touched the ones on my car. I do know its dual circuit system was considered high tech 50 years ago.

tjc78

my '79 New Yorker with the intermittent no start/stalling problem.

I thought you had worked that out? A loose wire on the lean burn computer or something IIRC?

texases

Any way you can post a photo of the rear brakes with the drum off?

fintail

Maybe the next time I drive it I can take a pic of the exploded parts diagram book, or look for a pic. I suspect it does have such brakes, I think it is a relatively advanced system.

fintail

Intermittent driveability issues were factory installed in most 1979 cars, weren't they? :shades:

hpmctorque

I rode in a new Sonata last weekend. As I complimented the owner on his new ride, he beamed proudly, and informed me that it has a V4. Mmm, sweet! He must have replaced the Hyundai engine with a '60s German Ford engine.

cleveland4

I am sorry to trail so far off topic.... but can anyone tell me without a doubt whether or not my 1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse, 5-speed, can hold a 3800 motor. If not what is the biggest size that I can put in there. I am seventeen and admittedly ignorant on most vehicular know-how, but i plan on having this car for a very long time and i simply want to put the best of the best in it.

Thank you,
your answers are very much appreciated

au1994

Thats funny. I got into an argument and dang near came to blows with a guy who swore the Acura Vigor had a V5. :confuse:

texases

"can anyone tell me without a doubt whether or not my 1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse, 5-speed, can hold a 3800 motor"

Nope, that model never had the v6. Is your the turbo? Transplanting a turbo 4 into yours would be the only halfway reasonable option, and you'd have to deal with lots of electronics and computer changes.

qbrozen

Nope, that model never had the v6.

Well, heck, that's no reason it can't be done.

With enough money and time, any transplant is possible.

andre1969

I thought you had worked that out? A loose wire on the lean burn computer or something IIRC?

Yeah, I did trace it down to that, but I haven't had a chance to get it fixed yet.

Mr_Shiftright

You can put a jet engine in a Nash Metropolitan if you have a mind to, but really, the best approach is to plan, plan, plan, before you spend a dime.

Given the value of a '95 Mitsu, I'd just spiff it up, sell it, and buy the V6 car you want.

Otherwise, to me at least, your project doesn't make that much sense. Why? Because really the Mitsu is a pretty heavy car for its size, and the V6 engine isn't going to make it a really "fast" car anyway.

If you really love your '95, consider turbo power then. It'll be cheaper than your plans, and you'll probably end up with a faster car and only a bolt-on process (presuming someone makes an already-engineered kit for your engine----maybe, maybe not).

omarman

Over the years have you regularly spent "new car money" on project cars? Have you ever spent, say, "Crazy Edsel" money on a project car instead of your daily drivers?

I haven't regularly driven a 6-mpg muscle car fed with sunoco 260 and afflicted insurance rates since the 70s. When both the Iron and the cost of "keeping" them began to rise I let the 60s Detroit thing go. There was a brief slice of time when people could drive and maintain muscle cars as daily drivers. (Read: living at home with mom and dad.) Long gone now.

At least over the last +25 years of adulthood, "new car money" means the same to me as it did to my dad: comfort, warranty, and economy of ownership.

But put yourself back in 1970 for a second and look at the snip below of a 1970 Chrysler Plymouth ad for a pair of brand spankin' new Mopars. Big discount for the road warrior Superbird, but sanity and comfort come with the Fury. At age 50, I'm going with the Fury. What about somebody younger? Remember: 1970 Mopar prices = 2010 Grand Caravan prices now. Plus, no living at mom and dad's and you have to actually drive the car you pick. It's 1970, man...BJ is not an auction.

How young and/or stuck at home would any of us have to be to sign paper for the Superbird? Would "we" have killed off the muscle car era just the same as our dads and uncles did after the psychodelic 60s were over? The previous generation eventually made "Cutlass" the best selling car and we're responsible for what? Cam-cord? Pretty funny when you look at it like that!

qbrozen

well, sure, its a financially dumb move. But that wasn't the question. :P

Mr_Shiftright

Well if I were merely seeking to develop a reputation for wisdom, I'd just find out what people wanted to do, and then tell them to do it. :P

andre1969

Just given those two extremes, I'd go with the Fury. Partly because I can't drive a stick very well (although if I had that Superbird, I'd learn! :shades: ) But, if given the choice, I'd probably try to split the middle somewhere, with something like a nicely equipped Satellite or Charger. Something with either a 318 or one of the milder big-blocks. And definitely with air conditioning, which would have added about $335 to the price, I'm guessing.

BTW, I wonder how late in the model year that ad was originally published? $3862 actually seems cheap to me for a Fury III, so $3262 seems like a downright steal! For comparison, my 1969 Dodge Dart GT MSRP'ed for about $3600, according to one of those American Standard catalogs, while my '68 Dart 270 was around $3300. And the GT just had a slant six! :surprise: Of course, who knows what they actually sold for? And both of them did have a/c, which boosted the price quite a bit back then. The GT also had a vinyl roof, "deluxe" 3-speed wipers with an electric windshield washer, and the tint at the top of the windshield.

My grandparents paid about $5,000 for their 1972 Impala, which would be roughly equivalent to that Fury III, albeit a couple years newer. I can't remember if prices went up much between '70 and '72 though. I know inflation wasn't THAT bad yet, but it soon would be! Their Impala was also a 4-door hardtop, which was probably around $150-200 more than a pillared sedan. And it had a/c, power steering, power disc brakes (that Fury might've just had nonpower drums), and I think it had an AM/FM radio.

omarman

The Fury and Super Bird ad was dated August 1970 so they were discounting pretty deep by then.

Went looking for a competing dealer ad for that same month/year and found this in Reading PA newspaper. Your choice of 1970 Hemi Cuda or 440/4-speed Superbird for $3800. (That would be about a dollar per pound right? :shades: ) Didn't find a Fury listing in there though.

Still looking for a competing dealer 1970 Fury ad and found this instead: Rhode Island cop cars being resold at $995 each. The Plymouth cop car has to be a Fury right?

I'll look later for a new '70 Fury with A/C. A lot of those dealer ads just trot out the low option price leaders to get attention - 40 years later and it still works!

fintail

Did you find those in the google newspaper archive or elsewhere? I killed several hours one day digging around in that.

cleveland4

No its not a Turbo, I just wanted to see what the biggest motor was that i could maybe just buy in a junk yard re-build then start putting aftermarket parts in it, but thanks for your answers/suggestions. I don't really plan on being too economical so really I am willing to spend all the money that I would have to, to get the very best... I'll just have to work my butt off. Regardless, I will take your suggestions to the nearest trustworthy mechanic or such and see what he thinks. Thanks

boomchek

You know Cleveland, unless you own your own shop where you can do this work cheaply and by yourself, and have experience doing it it's not worth it. Not when you'll be paying someone by the hour to do it.

The money you'll spend buying a motor, building it, and then swapping it into your Eclipse, you can take that money and buy yourself a better car to start with, like a Turbo Eclipse, older BMW M3, S2000, or whatever else that's already fast from the box.

Otherwise unless you have $10k - $20k to drop on your Eclipse all at once where the work can be done properly, and professionally, in a reputable shop, you'll end up doing it piece by piece and before you know it you'll sink a ton of dough into it and then you'll give up and sell it.

Look how many unfinished projects there are driving around or for sale, with cracked unpainted body kits, poorly tuned engines, mismatched wheels, stripped or poorly done interiors, etc.

Think hard because you'll never get this money back if you'll decide to give up and sell your car. Ever. Guaranteed.

Sorry to put it like this but I think many seasoned car guys here will agree with me on this.

garv214

Cleveland

If the 1995 style Eclipse is the car the really floats your boat, the I would STRONGLY recommend buying one that has been done. You may not get to customize it the way you would want, but it will be FAR cheaper than if you were to build one yourself, especially if you are a checkbook mechanic (...like me...)

The nicest Eclipse on the Planet

garv214

Cleveland

This guy did exactly the opposite of the wisdom that I just shared...

$17K in Parts alone and selling for $11K

omarman

Did you find those in the google newspaper archive or elsewhere? I killed several hours one day digging around in that.

Ha! Oh, yeah the news archive is pretty much like searching through youtube...you have to watch the clock as much as the search results or you're in trouble. Fun to play with when you have time though.

Found an interesting page regarding the News Archive Partner Program today,
"For articles already in digital format, we've worked with the hosts of these archives to crawl and index their materials. When materials aren't easily available in digital format, we have partnered with the copyright holder to scan and present the newspaper in a way that is full-text searchable, fast and easy to navigate."

Can't wait for more content to get with the program! For example currently I can't get Columbus Dispatch results beyond their own online site material. Still if you search for Flippo from only the Columbus Dispatch there's a nice write-up about the passing of Bob Marvin, creator of "Nerk" and other fun memories.

boomchek

Those two examples prove my point perfectly.

fintail

Yeah, I was browsing through some papers there not long ago...not many local periodicals uploaded there yet, but I think that will change in time. Do you know if there is a directory listing every paper hosted there?

I think I discovered it when I googled my family name and found some blurb in a small town paper mentioning my father 50+ years ago. I spent some time looking at the car ads in Spokane from the early 80s...the place was/is big enough to have a MB dealer, so I had some fun looking at the prices and resale values.

omarman

Do you know if there is a directory listing every paper hosted there?

That's a good question but I don't know if there is a directory listing for all digitized newspaper issues which can be searched. Here is a page with a partial listing of newspapers digitized by Google. The Toledo Blade isn't listed there but I've searched it back through 1890!

Plus here is a listing of Google news content acquired from the Paper of Record service.

The depth of historical resources accessed by Google is described here. Google News Archives is a meta-archive -- a compilation of a great number of individual archives, many of which are very substantial in their own right.

gsemike

Cleveland, I've got to agree with these guys. How did you pick the 3800 anyway? Do you aspire to a GN motor? To do all that work, the 3800 is nothing special and has a couple of well known trouble spots, especially the plastic intakes. The Mitsu engine can run as long and with the turbo can outrun any 3800 this side of the GN turbo motor.

jrosasmc

I found this car on Ebay so I figured you might want to have a look at it. Also, it's in California:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alfa-Romeo-Spider-Quadrifoglio-Silver-58k-miles-L- ast-year-quadrofoglio-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c1317f80eQQitemZ120579422222Q- QptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks

For me, there's two demerits against this particular Alfa: 1) I think it's way overpriced for the year, and 2) That interior! Why did Alfa use such a garish color for the carpets?

Mr_Shiftright

Looks like a nice car but he'll never get his asking price, especially in today's economy----the middle class, the typical buyer for this kind of car, has no money----the $10K--$50K market in collectibles is collapsing rapidly. Only the uber-wealthy are buying cars right now.