Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

qbrozen

well, come on, I have the MR2, a lightweight track car, the GTI, a mid-entry fun hatchback for daily driving, a convertible for the wife's summer fun, a minivan for ... well, whatever.... I'm thinking a nice luxo car for a couple days easy cruising to work would be nice.

andre1969

For what you want, just talk to Andre. maybe he will let you take on one of his fleet of late 70s Chryslers? A nice 5th avenue to bring up the property values in your neighborhood?

I don't think I'd sell those to anybody I know, because I don't wanna hear about it when they break down! :P I drove my 5th Ave to work yesterday, and the damn thing stalled out three times in the driveway! It was fine after that though, and behaved for the rest of the day.

qbrozen

so you are referring to the E32, I take it? I don't know .... maybe. Not the best looking bimmer, though. Probably my least favorite 7-series design.

qbrozen

I was waiting for you to chime in with some American steel suggestions but a bit more modern than yours.

stickguy

Go old school. Something like a '75 Caprice or LTD.

andre1969

I was waiting for you to chime in with some American steel suggestions but a bit more modern than yours.

Well, if you're looking at late 80's/early 90's, on the domestic front there's not really a whole lot in big, cushy cars. I'd say a Lincoln Town Car, maybe? Caddy Broughams like Lemko's '89 are nice rides as well, but it's getting increasingly difficult to find nice examples. Ever since the FWD Deville/Fleetwood took over as the volume Caddy for '85, the RWD model was a more of a niche seller, and it was rare for it to sell more than 50,000 per year.

A late 80's M-body 5th Ave is a nice car, if archaic. Midsized interior room and full-sized fuel economy, but they're sturdy and pretty reliable. And later 88's and all 89's even had a driver's airbag! Dunno if a 20+ year old airbag is a selling point, though!

GM's FWD luxury cars, like the Electra and 98, started off pretty bad in 1985, but were improved in later years. Lemko got pretty good service out of his '88 Electra Park Ave. For some reason, the Electra seemed to score better than the 98...ditto the LeSabre versus the 88. But I don't know why, when you consider they're the same basic car?

The '91 Park Ave (first year they dropped the Electra name) was a really nice looking car and got a lot of good press. I remember the cover of MT or CD had a pic of one with the tagline: "America Fights Back! With a BUICK?!"

If you want a bit less luxury cachet from that era, the Caprice, Crown Vic, and Grand Marquis were decent cars, and if you got the top trim levels, were pretty luxurious. I think the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis from that era is actually nicer than the current one. Those 20+ year old models seemed fairly nice and upscale inside, where the current ones feel more like a taxi that someone put leather seats in.

But if you're wanting something like a Benz S Class or BMW 7-series, I don't think any of those old domestic cars would really make the cut. Just two totally different types of luxury car...even if the domestics marketing of the era tried to make the customers think differently.

I was actually thinking along the lines of something like a first-gen Infiniti Q45 (the grille-less style), or an old Acura Legend! I like both of those, and they might blend sport and luxury together better than an LS400, which I've heard described as more of a very nice Japanese Buick.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah but it's the best BMW they ever made in the 80s, bar none. What's the problem? The design is quite inoffensive, unless THAT'S the problem :P

This car handles beautifully and it doesn't feel like a tank like the big 560 Benz. It's agile, gets good gas mileage on the highway and isn't hard to work on. Caveat is the driveshaft, which is not rebuildable. Oh, and watch out for metric tires--these are very expensive to replace. Most E32s by this time have switched to normal tires and wheels.

I have no confidence whatsoever in 1980s American cars but of course, results may vary.

qbrozen

The jellybean Q45 is hideous. I passed over the Legend thinking that was a much smaller car than the others we're talking about. Am I wrong?

michaellno

I was actually thinking along the lines of something like a first-gen Infiniti Q45 (the grille-less style)

When I saw q's first post, that was exactly what came to mind!

I remember riding in one not long after they were released ... pretty small inside. But, rode beautifully and had lots of power.

But, I've got a question. If we're talking about cars that are 20+ years old, how many good examples of them are really out there? Even with average miles per year, we're talking north of 200K. Unless you find one owned by the proverbial "little old lady".

qbrozen

They exist. I mean, hell, you see 50-60 year old cars with less than 50k. Why not a luxobarge? Some retiree buys it as a gift to himself and uses it once a week to go to church or whatever. Its not terribly uncommon. Heck, I wish my inlaws had more interesting taste in cars. Her '92 Sable has all of 23k miles on it. And, at this pace, his Grand Marquis will probably only accumulate 5k per year.

ab348

If you can find one, I vote for one of GM's RWD big cars from the 80s, preferably one with the Olds 307 V-8 under the hood - that would include the Delta 88 Brougham and 98, the Lesabre Limited and Electra, and even the mid-late 80s RWD Caddys. I like the Buick and Olds models myself.

andre1969

that would include the Delta 88 Brougham and 98, the Lesabre Limited and Electra, and even the mid-late 80s RWD Caddys. I like the Buick and Olds models myself.

Of that batch, I would LOVE to get an '80-84 Electra. And in '80, you could still get an Olds 350 in them, although it only had something like 160 hp.

Back in early 1994, a guy who worked with me at my part time job had a 1983 Olds 98 coupe he wanted to sell. I think it had been his Dad's. He only wanted $800 for it. He let me drive it, and I liked it. It was champagne with a burgundy interior, and had the 307. It was in great shape except for two little details. It had a broken taillight, which would need to be fixed to pass inspection. No big deal. The killer though, was that the heater didn't work. And at the time, we were going through one of the coldest spells in our history down here. Might sound wussy to you Canadians, but I had never in my life experienced -10F!

Again, fixing the heater probably wasn't a huge deal either, but I didn't have much money at the time. Plus I had just bought my '82 Cutlass Supreme about 7-8 months before, had the transmission rebuilt, so I thought I should just hang onto that and get my money's worth out of it. In retrospect, probably should've bought that 98!

andre1969

The jellybean Q45 is hideous.

I always kinda liked it...made me think of a slightly smaller, sportier 1992 Crown Vic!

I passed over the Legend thinking that was a much smaller car than the others we're talking about. Am I wrong?

Well, going by the EPA's interior volumes, the first-gen Legend, Q45, and LS400 are all pretty close...about the size of a 1997-02 Camry.

Here's the volumes:
Legend: 95/14 (passenger volume/trunk space)
Q45: 95/15
LS400: 98/14
Camry: 97/14

And, just to throw them into the mix:
1990 Benz 300SEL: 100/15
1990 BMW 735i: 101/13

Mr_Shiftright

Put me in the hideous column for the Q45. To me, it is lumpish, and to 99% of the human race, apparently quite forgettable.

However, in the interests of letting every man pursue his dream, I offer this rather good tutorial on the plusses and minuses of the car:

http://www.q45.org/buyingadvice.html

explorerx4

been reading about how E15 is going to kill a bunch of older engines, due to alcohol content.
it corrodes seals and attracts moisture which is never good.

texases

That first gen Q45 amazed me by the lack of headroom. I'm used to 'tight', this was 'unbearable'. The front end also reminds me of a Crown Vic, not something I want in a car like that.

I bet you can find some good LS400s, those seem to run forever.

Mr_Shiftright

The timing chain problem sounds pretty scary on the Q45. One bad chain guide and you can just send that car to the wrecking yard.

hpmctorque

That's an excellent buying guide for the Qs, Shifty! Do you happen to know of any similar guide for previous generation Audi A4 (especially model years '05-'08)? Buying guides are useful, since they zero right in on what's important, thereby saving the reader a heck of a lot of time, compared to slogging through endless pages of messages, many of which are useless or just plain wrong.

hpmctorque

It's frustrating how a car with so many attributes can have one main point of weakness, maybe two, that make it vulnerable to early an early demise. What makes it even more maddening is how often these design defficiencies could be relatively easily and cheaply corrected by the manufacturer. It's hardly surprising, though, that something can be overlooked when you're dealing with thousands of parts and components, tight design schedules, and cost considerations.

Mr_Shiftright

Probably the buyer's guide for the A4 would be really short, as in "don't buy one". :P

Mr_Shiftright

Many of these defects only show up after years of use in the field, at which time the model has been superceded---so that leaves it up to the aftermarket or to indy shops to correct the defects. After a car is out of warranty, many dealers have little interest in repairing them or modifying them. They may not even be aware of the modifications issued by the factory, and certainly unaware of aftermarket solutions.

hpmctorque

Good points!

Mr_Shiftright

Case in point----My Mini Cooper S

I was able to correct the following through the aftermarket

1. Re-inforcements for the shock towers (they deform due to stiff suspension and run-flat tires)

2. Metal shield to protect power steering fan from road damage

3. circuit board to allow automatic window-up (one-touch) and automatic Stability Control off

4. Front license plate holder (mini doesn't give you one)

5. Center and door arm rests (mini doesn't give you those)

Also, I have the famous "Chewbacca Noise" from my clutch, which is a defect concerning glazing of the dual-mass flywheel. Does not affect clutch operation in any way, so I'll just save up for the modified flywheel and clutch package in the future (NOT cheap!!).

I got all this info from MINI forums, not a buyer's guide. Also reading through the aftermarket catalogs, which are free, offers one a wealth of good information---presuming you can sniff out the sales hype.

hpmctorque

Wow, that's quite a list of corrections. Were they done by a shop that specialized in MINIs, or did you do them?

Has MINI corrected each of these deficiencies in the '11 model?

Mr_Shiftright

Actually that list is pretty short compared to some cars. I did most of them myself, yeah---not very hard, because the aftermarket has worked out all the instructions for installation.

I also had the shop do the supercharger reduction pulley (not really a defect but a mod).

Oh I also bought a wind deflector for the sunroof (very noisy without it) and that was easy to install as well.

AND some pull straps so that you can raise the back seats from the tailgate without busting your back.

AND a 2-bike, bike rack...much cheaper than MINI's factory system.

I don't think 2011 MINIs have these problems but I'm sure they have other problems.

ab348

I don't think 2011 MINIs have these problems but I'm sure they have other problems.

"Our design philosophy is to have our engineers design in new problems as fast as they design out old problems."

Mr_Shiftright

Old dogs have fleas, old German cars have issues...but who would get rid of their beloved dog?

explorerx4

I refer to my Mustang as a family pet.
My kids don't really remember not having it.
Looks like it will be warm enough to start it over the next couple of days.

hpmctorque

"Probably the buyer's guide for the A4 would be really short, as in 'don't buy one.' "

Whoops, too late! Bought a '07 a year ago. It was my wife's choice, and her daily driver. Warranty expired in January. I warned her, but she loves it, especially the interior. Gotta say that it's a joy to drive, especially on the highway. The warranty was useful for a couple of issues. Will see about the future.

Mr_Shiftright

Well let's hope for the best. Some people have good luck with them. My brother's was a pretty good car.

I think the trick is to not mile them up. Bail out before 100K.

steine13

Old friend of mine has an '05 w/ 85k. Manual, 4cyl turbo. Flawless so far. Still, better him than me...

-Mathias

lemko

Saw a show on TLC last night called "Desert Car Kings." They were looking for a project car they could restore in three weeks and try to auction for a profit.

First candidate was a 1962 Chrysler Newport 4-door sedan that already looked pretty solid and was rejected as they didn't think they could get much for a 4-door sedan.

Second candidate was a 1958 DeSoto Fireflite 2-door hardtop, but was rejected when they saw how rusted-out it was.

Third candidate was a solid 1957 Packard station wagon which two guys realy wanted to restore but was rejected by the boss. I'd have rejected it as it's nothing more than a glorified Studebaker than a bona fide Packard.

The successful candidate was a 1950 Cadillac Series 61 sedan that looked like it was some previous owner's project car.

Of course, I'd have passed on this car at the auction for several reasons:

They used a 1961 Cadillac 390 V-8 retrofitted to 6 volt rendering the Cadillac a "Frankencar" right off the bat.

They didn't research the proper materials and patterns for the interior. Instead, they relied on the taste of the boss's wife - which wasn't bad, but it wasn't authentic.

The Series 61 is a low-end Cadillac. I'd have preferred a DeVille or Fleetwood. This car was so low end it had dog dish hubcaps versus the "sombreros."

In the end, the boss didn't auction the car, but gave it to his doting wife as an anniversary present. Awww! What a sweet kid!

Mr_Shiftright

Well the Desoto would have been the big buck car of that lot, but even then, a restored model might bring you $30K if you were fortunate, and you can't really restore a car very well for $30K anymore. It would also be the most stylish and desirable of the whole bunch.

Sounds like these guys needed a car that they could do on the cheap, which means complete, running, no rust AND worth something at the other end.

So their choice was about as good as they could do, under the circumstances. The Newport, the Packardbaker and the Fireflight aren't going anywhere near the profit-side of the equation and aren't worth restoring IMO.

explorerx4

Engine runs a-ok. Transmission fluid is looking like it needs to be replaced.
I'm scared of doing a flush, but thinking a drain and refill would be ok.
Looking for some guidance.

texases

I've been having drain and fill done, about every 30k. Should be plenty. It's not like engine oil, with all the contaminants, just replenishing the additives (I think).

explorerx4

Drain and fill sounds good. Just checked my records, hit 30k in 2005.

qbrozen

So I managed to pick up some Falken 615s off ebay for the 'yota for autoXing duty. Started swapping them last week and thought, "hey, nows a good time to sand and paint the fender lips to get rid of the surface rust bubbling up." Wouldn't ya know it, I removed the driver's side ... ummm... don't know what to call it, but its kinda like a mudflap that encases the corner of the rocker panel in front of the wheel .... and, as I thought might be the case, it is rusted pretty bad underneath. It is a perfect place for water to collect and not be able to drain from.

Luckily, after I remove as much rust as possible, cover it all with POR-15, rivet on some sheet aluminum, and prime/paint it, I get to cover it back up with the trim so nobody can see the crappy finishing job I do.

I'm hoping before the end of the summer, I have a little spare change to afford a polyurethane kit for the front suspension and a set of ground control coilover sleeves. Anybody know anything about those, by some chance? I'm trying to understand why they need to know the shocks I use and what spring rates I should be requesting.

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe THIS little lecture would help? I'm not too sharp on coilover theory myself.

ab348

Is it a first-gen MR2? They are bad rusters, unfortunately. I bought one new and had to have rust repair done after 3 years of driving. Never expected that. I know the part you are talking about and it is a bad spot, as are the similar rubber/plastic pieces just ahead of the rear wheel openings.

If I owned one today I would be concerned about corrosion affecting the main structure. They do not seem to be built in a very corrosion-resistant manner.

qbrozen

yes, it is an MK1. It is actually remarkably low on rust. This is the first I've found. It is not just this type of car that suffers from this problem. All 1980s japanese cars suffer from rust issues. I was lucky enough to find a virtually rust-free 300z and now this MR2. Only 94k miles when I bought it, so it must have spent alot of time in a garage.

shifty - thanks for the link. that will take a while to get through.

Mr_Shiftright

Well, suspension theory is actually a pretty complex subject.

hpmctorque

Delayed response regarding A4...

"I think the trick is to not mile them up. Bail out before 100K."

Wouldn't the same be true of a C-Class or 3-Series?

fintail

Probably true of any post-1995 or so highline car.

hpmctorque

Yeah, probably. What do you think you'll eventually replace your newer Mercedes with?

fintail

Well, it is 9 years old and still under 50K. I drive around 5500 miles a year, so it might be a few years off, barring crash or mechanical catastrophe. It's not the latest thing anymore, but it is in nice condition, and is paid for.

Probably an older MB (W126 or W124 500E), or a newer one. I'd also like a highline 140 or even a 129 SL, but they both seem to be money pits. If not a MB, probably BMW, Lexus, or lease a common cheap car and save money.

hpmctorque

"Paid for" is very appealing.

You're casting a wide net. I do the same thing.

fintail

I'm not against any particular brands, but I do have my preferences.

I think as I age and roads continue to deteriorate, I might want something with a more plush ride.

hpmctorque

Better be careful what you wish for, as a plush ride could translate into a certain brand with portholes, or a luxo model with a very complex adjustible suspension option., rather than your favorite marque.

andre1969

Better be careful what you wish for, as a plush ride could translate into a certain brand with portholes, or a luxo model with a very complex adjustible suspension option

Hey, I resemble that remark! :P Although honestly, I think the ride on my 2000 Park Ave is a bit over-rated. IMO it bounces too much. And there's one harsh dip in the road on the way home that I slow down for in the Park Ave, because if I hit it too fast, it feels like it's hurting the car! Yet, I can sail right over it in the New Yorkers, although one time I did have to chase down a hubcap that came off my blue NYer. And even the LeMans or Catalina seem to take it just fine. With the truck, the front axle goes over it just fine, but then when the rear hits, it bounces hard enough that it's actually hurt my back before.

Hard to believe Fintails "new" car is 9 years old already. Sure doesn't seem like it.

fintail

Adjustable suspension scares me, along with air suspension - the only reason I wouldn't want a W220. But the E55 is pretty harsh, and roads aren't getting any smoother, and I'm not getting any younger. I'm already weaving like a drunk to get around the holes, ruts, and poorly designed manholes. Eventually, I will want something softer, as I don't see better roads in the dumbed down brave new world of the future.